Family Quandry

[CAGirl]

Wow This is all really creepy. Funny that you should all see this now. I remember my mom saying she wouldn’t “drink the punch” all the time even before we moved from SLO to Morro Bay. Hope your wrong but it wouldn’t surprise me to hear about all of them on the news in the next few years.

[editor]

Wow This is all really creepy. Funny that you should all see this now. I remember my mom saying she wouldn’t “drink the punch” all the time even before we moved from SLO to Morro Bay. Hope your wrong but it wouldn’t surprise me to hear about all of them on the news in the next few years.

Hi Becca,

I am not just seeing this now, I have communicated things like this for several years.  I just thought I would re-visit it, in light of some of the recent discussion.  Your mom's comment about the punch was pretty insightful.  She knew what was going on.

Power hungry cult leaders can never be satisfied with a normal life.  It seems that they always want to go down in a blaze of glory, and nothing is so glorious as seeing one's followers willingly end their lives as an act of fear and respect towards oneself.  At least, in their sick minds this is the sincerest compliment, and the ulitmate self validation.

I won't be at all surprised to hear about them in the news either.

Brent

[Oscar]

We are in agreement here Verne.  I won't argue that George is saved anymore than I will argue that David Koresh was saved, although both claimed they were.  Both also claimed to be "The Lord's Servant," and both were enabled by weak, stupid men.

What I mean by saying that these groups started off as Christian is that there were Christian members, and that the doctrine and practices were undoubtedly under the umbrella of Christianity...more so at the beginning.   Over the years, things progressed and morphed into what they have become.

Here is an example of what could have happened, and what may happen in the future.

Pat Schout, a decent guy in every respect, married a good deal of money.  In 1999, while under Betty's influence, he built a 'compound' in Charleston, at great personal expense, that had a dual purpose.  It was to be a meeting facility for the midwest saints, as well as a Y2K safety zone.  Some of you will remember that at the top of the list of prayer requests for many gatherings was "emergency" preparedness, by which they meant Y2K.  I clearly remember a converasation I had with Pat, in which he shared with me a paper by Ed Yardini, on what was going to happen during Y2K.  He implored me to prepare for this, and shared with me what he was doing.  I thought he was nuts....and it turns out he was.

At the time, in SLO, people were storing water, raising rabbits and preparing for disaster, all under Betty's guidance.  One brother vigorously entreated me to be responsible and store up emergency food and gold.   I told him,  "if things really do crash, what good is gold going to be?  The banks and financial markets won't function, and you can't eat or drink gold."  I felt like my swimming pool, my backpacking filter, and our pantry was probably good enough...

The point is that people were ready to take extreme action because the leader indicated it was a good idea.  The Assembly was far from alone in this, there were plenty of kooks in those days, but Pat's compound was tragic, in my opinion.

So, if the George-loyal groups are even more close-knit, and more extreme in their views, and more detached from reality, under an even stronger persecution complex, it isn't a big leap to some sort of extreme action.  On the contrary, it is predictable and expected.  How fun and exciting to live just like one of the groups in Pilgrim Church!  How wonderful to be persecuted by the "world church" just like the Moravian Brethren!

I'm sorry to say that with the groups that remain loyal to George, the sky is the limit.  I wouldn't be surprised by anything with these people, with the exception that they come to their senses and repent.  That would indeed surprise me, and I would be extremely happy.  Unfortunately, it just doesn't happen much.

Brent

Back when Howard Magnuson inherited his farm from (I think) his grandfather, G and B made a big deal out of it.

There was talk of a "refuge" from persecution.  Betty told us to avoid speaking of its location in letters.  Of course, it had to be an organic farm as well.

Seems the paranoia was at work at least as far back as the 1980's.

BTW, anyone ever hear what they did with GG's mansion in Guadalajara?

Thomas Maddux

[editor]

Back when Howard Magnuson inherited his farm from (I think) his grandfather, G and B made a big deal out of it.

There was talk of a "refuge" from persecution.  Betty told us to avoid speaking of its location in letters.  Of course, it had to be an organic farm as well.

Seems the paranoia was at work at least as far back as the 1980's.

BTW, anyone ever hear what they did with GG's mansion in Guadalajara?

Thomas Maddux

Do you mean the Casa de Sion in Cuernavaca?  I don't know anything about a house in Guadalajara.

The Casa de Sion is owned by Marta Velasco, and was purchased and built by the saints, under George's urging.  They even put a nice library on the top floor for our brother, when he visited.

I understand from someone who lived in it, and helped build it, that it is worth about 2 million dollars.

I have made it clear that I want my money back when it sells.  I didn't give the Velasco's a private donation for their real estate speculation, and I see no reason why they should make all the profit, when others put up cash as well.  I think Dave Zach is perhaps the largest donor.

Anyhow, the desire to have a compound for extreme times has been present for some time.  Betty seems to be the main mover behind this sort of thing.

Brent

[editor]

Al Hartman told me that I appear to have a mental problem, and that I am not giving Nightowl good, encouraging words, words that reflect the positive message of the Gospel of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

He says that my words may cause Nightowl to "buckle under despair."  Furthermore, Al states that I most likely fear that I have some psychological problems.

So, Nightowl, if you read this, please consult with Al Hartman, so that you don't buckle under despair.  I may be telling the truth, but in doing so I have neglected to proclaim the "good news of redemption in Christ." 

I assumed that you were a Christian and that you knew all this.  I also assumed that your head was on pretty straight, because of what you said.  But Al is worried that in my disturbed state I might cause you pain, or even worse despair.

So, get a second opinion from someone else regarding what I say.  Al Hartman is a really sensitive guy who really cares, and he would be glad to share with your the exceeding greatness of love and mercy that can be found in Our Lord Jesus Christ.

The reason I didn't go on like this is because I was talking about the groups loyal to GG, which is a quite different topic.

Al, you should chime in here and put me in my place, for all of our sakes.

I won't paint the groups currently loyal to George Geftakys in any way that is positive, for the sole reason that I think they are a dangerous cult. 

I stand by my original statement where I say that you should spend as much time as possible with your brother, and each time you do it should be really fun and refreshing.  Then, should he have doubts about his involvement, you will be a natural contact.   However, don't think that it's going to be a happy day when he gets out.  He will be a wreck.

Al will tell you, like he told me,  "Christ is the Great Physician, concerened with symptomatic pain, and causative disease."  I guess he means that things might not be so bleak for your brother.  Hopefully, Al is correct.  However, history has shown clearly that this is not the case.  Even Al will tell you that he struggled for years after leaving the Assembly.


Brent

[summer007]

Brent, I believe what your saying is True. For anyone to suggest that you WATER the truth down is wrong and its a dis-service to all. The Assm is clearly off-course. (7th day,and much more). As someone said in an earlier post to night-owl we all pray read the bible etc, well that does'nt make you a Christian. They sang hymns and worshipped too. But I believe they're in danger. One thing is GG could be slowed down by his age, yet this could also excellerate the inevitable.   summer ( the group is absolutly repulsive )

[editor]

Brent, I believe what your saying is True. For anyone to suggest that you WATER the truth down is wrong and its a dis-service to all. The Assm is clearly off-course. (7th day,and much more). As someone said in an earlier post to night-owl we all pray read the bible etc, well that does'nt make you a Christian. They sang hymns and worshipped too. But I believe they're in danger. One thing is GG could be slowed down by his age, yet this could also excellerate the inevitable.   summer ( the group is absolutly repulsive )

thanks Summer,

I agree.  To make light of the groups loyal to GG is error, in my opinion. 


What may be coming across in my posts on this topic is my frustration with people who aren't willing to call the group what it is.  It's a cult, period.

I don't mean Fullerton, or one of the others that has denounced George, I specifically refer to the groups that are currently loyal to George.

The people in those groups pray more, read their bibles more, and speak more God talk and religious blather than anyone I am aware of.  What makes anyone think that we can help them?  They are the blindest of the blind.

Brent

[summer007]

If the groups so benign as some seem to think, then whats wrong with popping-in for a visit to Pasadena on saturday and spend All Day for the Lord with the brethren, your Christian, there Christian, you could all have sweet fellowship with a big dose of False Doctrine. Is there anything wrong with that?    Sum (remember: The Devils believe and tremble)

[vernecarty]

Al Hartman told me that I appear to have a mental problem, and that I am not giving Nightowl good, encouraging words, words that reflect the positive message of the Gospel of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

He says that my words may cause Nightowl to "buckle under despair."  Furthermore, Al states that I most likely fear that I have some psychological problems.

Excuse me...!!!
Please tell me that you misunderstood an attempt at humor, Brent...

I agree that Nightowl seems to be a big boy.
Let me whisper a secret this to all would-be Geftakys apologists:

we still do not know the full extent of the damage!!!

How can those of us who know what happened help but sympathise on hearing someone like Nightowl's perspective?
Contrary to Al's notion of the kind of straight no-nonsense talk about that era being somehow indicative of some sort of psychological problem, I would argue that it is the folk who refuse to undergo that process who will probably never recover...
Verne

[editor]

Excuse me...!!!
Please tell me that you misunderstood an attempt at humor, Brent...

I agree that Nightowl seems to be a big boy.
Let me whisper a secret this to all would-be Geftakys apologists:

we still do not know the full extent of the damage!!!

How can those of us who know what happened help but sympathise on hearing someone like Nightowl's perspective?
Contrary to Al's notion of the kind of straight no-nonsense talk about that era being somehow indicative of some sort of psychological problem, I would argue that it is the folk who refuse to undergo that process who will probably never recover...
Verne

Nope, it was not humor.  He wrote me a very serious "entreaty" about how he was worried that Nightowl would "buckle under a weight of despair," as a result of my words.  He also indicated that he was worried about me and thought I had psychological problems.  He wasn't kidding, and although I laughed, I really didn't think it was funny.

Honestly, I've had it with Assembly-speak, and the related dialects spoken by sissified people everywhere.  I started a thread about it.

Brent

[editor]

If the groups so benign as some seem to think, then whats wrong with popping-in for a visit to Pasadena on saturday and spend All Day for the Lord with the brethren, your Christian, there Christian, you could all have sweet fellowship with a big dose of False Doctrine. Is there anything wrong with that?    Sum (remember: The Devils believe and tremble)

I know that I would not be at all welcome to do so.  However, I would love it if someone would go there and check it out.  What fun! 

It goes like this after pre-prayer:

Praise the Lord saints!  What do we say in this place?  Saturday is all day for The Lord!

Greet one another!  Greet the visitor!  And all the lively ones said, "Praise the Lord!"

Then, after the morning ministry:

"We'll see you all after outreach, at 2:30 for pre-prayer.  Pray for our brother's preparation, that we would hear a word in season.  [do you have a hymn, brother?]  Let's all stand and sing hymn number 69, "Lead on oh King Eternal....."

I digress.

Brent

[summer007]

and if your the Lucky one you can rub Goerges feet.

[CAGirl]

I would have to agree with Summer that Gorges age is likely to speed things along. He is not a man I see laying down quietly and letting go. He needs to feel like he won. He needs to feel that he is taking something with him. Like he can show up in heaven and say “look God. I brought your faithful followers with me. The end times are near and I couldn’t leave them down there in these dark days without my wise guiding hand”  
I have to say that this wasn’t really the topic at the start but things have got interesting and informative. And Brent, you don’t have any more head issues than the rest of us. Actually after reading a lot of discussions here you seem to be one of the more down to earth people who doesn’t feel that they have to validate their point by adding things like “the gracious love and mercy of Our Lord Jesus Christ”

[editor]

I would have to agree with Summer that Gorges age is likely to speed things along. He is not a man I see laying down quietly and letting go. He needs to feel like he won. He needs to feel that he is taking something with him. Like he can show up in heaven and say “look God. I brought your faithful followers with me. The end times are near and I couldn’t leave them down there in these dark days without my wise guiding hand”  
I have to say that this wasn’t really the topic at the start but things have got interesting and informative. And Brent, you don’t have any more head issues than the rest of us. Actually after reading a lot of discussions here you seem to be one of the more down to earth people who doesn’t feel that they have to validate their point by adding things like “the gracious love and mercy of Our Lord Jesus Christ”

Praise the Lord Sister! 

I thank God that you noticed my down-to-earthness!  Praise His Name!!

I have been really crying out to God for increase in this area, and just this morning He gave me a precious promise!  Your mentioning it has just validated my suspicion....God is doing a deep inward work in me in order to make me more down-to-earth.

It's getting thick in here....

We should keep the discussion on track a little better.

Brent

[night owl]

Actually I don't think you have gone off-topic - you have answered at least one question I was going to ask. And that is: What is it about the Assembly that people find so attractive? The tendency for me at first when my brother joined was, "Where did I go wrong? How did I fail him?" As if I had that much control over him. I think at least one thing he was looking for was a family. Not that he didn't come from a good family, but definitely one that didn't take him seriously enough. And if there's one thing I can tell here from reading everybody's posts, you were (and continue to be) a community. And I think my brother was craving something like that.

Another thing I think he found attractive is that he tends to be lazy, and for the first time he was being given limits and motivation and (albeit extreme) boundaries. I think he really grativated towards that, too. Plus the fact that he thought he had found a Book of Acts kind of church - returning to the basics, the early church. From time to time he would express concerns over things people said or did, but he was willing to give all of that up to be a part of what was happening.

And thanks Al for your concern - I totally understand and appreciate it. My hope is in Christ, not in my brother's emancipation - and He knows what's best for my brother. So I won't lose hope in the One who gives me hope! And my brother is definitely worth all of the prayer and heartache. You guys are awesome! And we serve an awesome God.

And another thing - I find it particularly interesting that you mention Jonestown and David Koresh. When I first tried researching the Assembly, one of the people I talked to who worked for a ministry whose focus was educating people on cults and aberrant churches, he mentioned that the Assembly, while doctrinally sound, had all the potential for becoming a Jonestown. So I was hearing it even back then. Actually, practically everyone I talked to in my research days began by saying they thought the Assembly was doctrinally sound, but aberrational and cult-like.