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Author Topic: Family Quandry  (Read 28945 times)
night owl
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« on: April 13, 2005, 05:43:33 am »

I have a family member who is currently in the Assembly. He is a long-standing member. I am hesitant to mention his name or which assembly he belongs to. I recently learned about the events of early 2003 leading to GG being excommunicated. I have so many questions. I need help. I can either try to talk here or you can e-mail me. I have been praying for this family member for about 25 years. I am a Christian and I love this person dearly. Any suggestions?
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al Hartman
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« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2005, 06:37:24 am »



Night Owl,

Welcome, and thanks for posting.  Suggestions?  Specifics would be impossible without more details, and only you can decide how much detail to reveal...

If you are new to this board, try just reading some of the threads to get a feel for the hearts and attitudes of the various posters.  We are mostly all former assembly people, but we are far from being cookie-cutter-alike.

Some of us have published our e-mail addresses, and any of us can be contacted by personal message via IM through this board.  This may be good if you find a strong connection with someone's point of view & want their personal counsel.

On the other hand, by posting your concerns openly, you may draw a cross-section of views that will give added dimension to your insights into the situation in question.

The call is, of course, yours alone to make.  My personal counsel is to take your time, pray for the Lord's guidance, and frame your thoughts and questions without rushing.  Then post, e-mail, or IM as you feel comfortable in doing.  God bless you in your pursuit of His will...

In Christ,
al Hartman
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vernecarty
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« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2005, 07:18:29 am »

I have a family member who is currently in the Assembly. He is a long-standing member. I am hesitant to mention his name or which assembly he belongs to. I recently learned about the events of early 2003 leading to GG being excommunicated. I have so many questions. I need help. I can either try to talk here or you can e-mail me. I have been praying for this family member for about 25 years. I am a Christian and I love this person dearly. Any suggestions?

Those who still voluntarily associate themselves with the work initiated and cotrolled by George Geftakys, despite what has been revealed,will not be persuaded by anything you or I can offer. My suggestion is that you do your best to exemplify genuine Christian love and grace in your relationship with him, and that you pray for God to grant  liberty from this prison.  What a pity that there are people still involved with this...
Verne
« Last Edit: April 13, 2005, 07:21:04 am by VerneCarty » Logged
Sammy
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« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2005, 07:27:08 am »

Hi Night owl,
   As Al said it is up to you to let people know the name of your family member. However I would say that letting people know at least what town your relative lives in may work to help you. I don’t know if you were ever a member yourself but I can say that all the members were very close to the point of being a family and that there may be someone reading this that was close with your relative. If this person were to contact you it may turn out to be very comforting and helpful to you. I hope you get the help you need. It's not hopeless Smiley
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just me
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« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2005, 07:34:40 am »

Night Owl:

I too have a family member who is still in.  This is very disturbing because the group has become so much more twisted in turning it's back on real abuses and refusing to defend those who were truly abused.  Namely women.  It is a very narrow minded "good-old-boys" club at the best and an extremely corrupt cult at the worst.  My family member refuses to discuss anything with us.  He remains self-righteous and even more withdrawn.  However, there are some in our family who are able to get to him.  So little by little, hopefully, he may be moved.  We can only hope.  It took us years (decades) it may take the same for him.  In the mean time I know it is a great loss and sufferiing.
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outdeep
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« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2005, 08:02:52 am »

Of what I understand, there are some folks in the Assembly now who have lightened up and are not exclusive in their thinking.  They don't mind if folks go to other churches and are open to other Christians.  There are others, though, that are continuing in the same mindset of the Assembly before it fell.


By your comment, I will assume that your loved one falls in the latter group.  If you approach this person as someone who is in a bad group, they will pick that up and alienate you.  When I was in the Assembly we were conditioned to think that those who critisized the Assembly were fighting against the Testimony of God and the very work that God was doing.  When faced with this, we tended to pull up the drawbridge and be forced further into the safety of the Assembly.

I would cultivate what you have in common with this person as a fellow believer in Christ.  (After all, believe it or not, those in the Assembly are indeed Christians.)  You both pray.  You both read and discuss the Bible.  Build your relationship upon what you have in common in Christ instead of pointing out the differences in practices.  Try to be a "safe place" where this person doesn't feel defensive about the group he is involved in.  When he is ready to leave, he will then come to you because you have proven to be a consistant friend.
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night owl
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« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2005, 11:56:01 am »

Thanks for all your comments! I definitely will be praying about this. And I definitely believe that my brother (ok, now you know he's my sibling) is a Christian and that the Assembly has many sincere Christian believers in it. I want to be a safe harbor for my brother. I attended a couple of Sunday all-day services in Fullerton when he first joined so I've heard GG preach. And we had dinner at his Brother's House once and I visited there a couple of times. I saw my brother go from a happy, good-natured, fun-loving college student to a sullen, distant, arrogant person. He was a brand new baby Christian when he started going to the Assembly bible studies on campus. He was looking for a church home because he was living on campus and attending college out of town.

I guess I'm a little afraid that he might read my messages here and disappear again. He told me that after reading some of the posts here, he was sickened by what he read. He said it was put together by a bunch of "malcontents." However, after spending a couple of days reading the messages on the board, I have found it to be well-monitored and fair. He has been in the Assembly longer than he was out of it, so I shouldn't be too surprised that he finds freedom offensive.

When he first joined, I wasn't prepared for the changes he underwent. He disappeared for a couple of years and we didn't hear from him. When he resurfaced, he was a totally different person. Soon after, I contacted Ronald Enroth through the Walter Martin ministry and he was kind enough to talk to me over the phone. At that time, there weren't many resources about the Assembly and I kept hitting dead ends. I am so thankful for this message board and those of you who have the courage to talk about your experiences. It really helps people like me. Thanks for your kindness. I have been praying for something like this for over 25 years. I just pray that my brother would know the Truth, and that the Truth would set him free.

Thanks again.
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vernecarty
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« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2005, 06:51:12 pm »

. I saw my brother go from a happy, good-natured, fun-loving college student to a sullen, distant, arrogant person. Thanks again.

These words accurately describe numerous lives influenced by George and Betty Geftakys and those they trained.
They accurately describe my own metamorphosis. The thing I am now most ashamed of about my assembly days is the soul-destroying spiritual arrogance and pride so many of us developed under Geftakys' tutelage. We were taught to despise other believers who were universally dismissed as "worldly" and "carnal".
I am certain your brother does not see this change in himself.
This is one of the reasons George actively encouraged his followers to distance themselves form family.
What a tragedy it must be to see someone you love being destroyed in this manner.
The fact that some people still refuse to  see what sort of man this was and the enormity of what he perpetrated is incontestable witness to the man's infernal power. God alone can provide delivery of this sort.
I trust God will give you wisdom and grace as you seek your brother's favour in the quiet places...
Verne
« Last Edit: April 13, 2005, 06:57:09 pm by VerneCarty » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2005, 06:37:17 am »

I guess I'm a little afraid that he might read my messages here and disappear again. He told me that after reading some of the posts here, he was sickened by what he read. He said it was put together by a bunch of "malcontents." However, after spending a couple of days reading the messages on the board, I have found it to be well-monitored and fair. He has been in the Assembly longer than he was out of it, so I shouldn't be too surprised that he finds freedom offensive.

All the information, the truth, about George and his assembly is readily available at www.geftakysassemlby.com

There are a few things to keep in mind regarding your brother's situation:

Years ago, only a very few people knew what type of man George is, and most of them kept silent, or were effectively hidden and squelched to the members.  Many sincere people were involved in the group unknowingly...they were deceived.  Many left, but most felt guilty about it, due to the false teaching that had been taught, re-taught and re-inforced over the years.

Things grew worse, especially in Fullerton and San Luis Obispo.  People started to ask questions, which were defelected or "answered" carefully by the leadership.  The goal was to protect David Geftakys, and the "Testimony."  The membership were happy to protect the testimony, but David's erratic behavior became increasingly difficult to explain away.  When pressure was brought to bear on David, he subtly threatened to expose his father's adulteries.

This caused George to re-double his efforts to protect David, in order to protect himself.  This seemed to work until 2 big things happened.

David's abuse of his children and wife became known by a few people who took offense, and most importantly, Judy left David.

That event proved very difficult to explain away, and at that time I was writing articles on Rick Ross and MacGregor Ministries.  I began, with the help of several pastors in SLO, to attempt to address the issues in SLO, but the leaders would have none of it, and they finally excommunicated me, for telling the truth.

It was at this point that Kirk Cesaretti began to wake up, and I learned even more about the goings on behind the scenes in the leading brothers' meetings.  After a last attempt to entreat these men, again with the help of a local pastor, I decided to start the website.  I believed that if people knew what I knew, they would leave...and they did.

The fact that your brother has all this information readily available to him, and that he is free to access it discreetly, but for some reason has failed to do so....or even worse, refuses to believe it, doesn't bode well for him ever leaving this group.

As has been said, "there is none so blind as him who will not see."  People who read the info and refused to believe it have seared consciences and a under a demonic spell.  It's no longer a matter of opinion, or "he said-she said."  There is incontrovertable proof of the type of man George is, and the fact that his servants have repeatedly lied in order to protect him.  These are not confused people, they know exactly what they are doing.  They are apostates.

So, I agree with what has been said by others here.  All you can do is try to keep something in common with your brother, something fun that he likes to do.  Show him true joy and freedom, and make sure that when you are with him, he is loving life.  If, at some point in the future, he is capable of hearing the Holy Spirit, you will be there to support him.  However, I want to let you know that it won't be a happy day when your brother comes to his senses.  He will be incredibly devastated and confused and will most likely abandon his "faith," such as it is.

It was hard enough for those who recognized they were fooled when they first heard the truth.  How much harder for those who heard the truth and destroyed their consciences in order to continue on with their service to an evil man in Christs name.  That is going a tough hit to take emotionally.  Everything that they have centered their lives around is false, and they have been so arrogant and judgemental towards those can seen clearly. 

Here is an example of how bizarre things have gotten.

I have heard that at least one of the remaining assemblies, Pasadena, has begun meeting on Saturday, as a result of George's false 7th day creation teaching.  For decades, the "saints" would argue with Adventists that the church should meet on Sunday, the first day of the week, using Acts 20:7 as their proof text. 

Now, they have seen to abandon all that and do what they spoke against only a few years earlier...because George says so.  Not good, not good at all.  This, if indeed it is true, is another step down the path of spectacularly dangerous cult.  I have predicted that some really horrible things are going to take place in the remaining groups...let's hope I'm wrong.  However, this whole story is remarkably similiar to how Waco, Jonestown, Solar Temple, and Heaven's Gate all progressed.

Make no mistake about it, while in the past there were many sincere believers in the Assembly, the current members do not fall into that category.

That's my opinion.

Brent
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moonflower2
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« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2005, 09:30:29 am »

All the information, the truth, about George and his assembly is readily available at www.geftakysassemlby.com

Here is an example of how bizarre things have gotten.

I have heard that at least one of the remaining assemblies, Pasadena, has begun meeting on Saturday, as a result of George's false 7th day creation teaching.  For decades, the "saints" would argue with Adventists that the church should meet on Sunday, the first day of the week, using Acts 20:7 as their proof text. 
Shocked Shocked Shocked How long have these "supernatural" meetings been going on?
Quote
Now, they have seen to abandon all that and do what they spoke against only a few years earlier...because George says so.  Not good, not good at all.  This, if indeed it is true, is another step down the path of spectacularly dangerous cult.  I have predicted that some really horrible things are going to take place in the remaining groups...let's hope I'm wrong.  However, this whole story is remarkably similiar to how Waco, Jonestown, Solar Temple, and Heaven's Gate all progressed.
This is quite frightening, and I believe that you are right......
Makes me doubly glad for all that you went through to get the truth out to the rest of us.

Is Betty "Under The Influence", too? What do you think is her part in this?
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Make no mistake about it, while in the past there were many sincere believers in the Assembly, the current members do not fall into that category.

That's my opinion.

Brent
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summer007
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« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2005, 10:46:09 am »

Chilling...(lets hope your wrong, but all indicators say your right)
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« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2005, 07:30:37 pm »

That's the scary part.

Waco, and David Koresh  (Vernon Howell) started off as a zealous small group within the 7th day Adventists.  He was the "underling" of a guy named Victor Houtef, and he expanded and developed Houtef's teachings into the Waco Davidians.

Jonestown, and the "Rev." Jim Jones, began as a zealous charismatic group.  They were well within the bounds of orthodoxy doctrinally...but the Rev.  had too much influence, and things progressed, to state it mildly.  As their doctrine changed, and their allegiance to their leader strenghtened, little by little they got to the point where they could drink Koolaide. 

Marshall Applewhite and his wife began as Christian ministers.  Some of the followers who drank the vodka and pills and placed the plastic bags over their heads in order to meet the spaceship were with them when they were "christians."   Certain things changed over the years, and some of their beliefs strayed from orthodox Christianity...

Geftakys began as a Christian group, and then developed some strange teachings, like 7th day creation, etc.

Am I saying that these groups and the Assembly are identical?  Certainly not.  However, the early versions of these groups are remarkably similiar to the where the Assembly is now.  One of the major differences is that George is pretty old.  If he were younger, I would be even more worried.  However, there is always Scott Testa and Jim McCallister, the latter apparently has enough "vision" to begin meeting on Saturday, in honor of George.

It's one thing to meet on Saturday because it's the Sabbath.  While I don't agree with it, I don't see it as being a huge problem.  The trouble with what is allegedly going on with the current groups is that they are willing to abandon any conviction they have about the Bible in order to adopt what George says.  Furthermore, there were willing to adopt a blatant preferential, double standard with regard to George's adultery, in clear contratdiction to what the scriptures say, and in clear contradiction to the stand they had taken with others in the past.  It is this willingness to compromise principle and place George's views over and above the plain language in the Bible that worries me so much.  The pattern is there, and no one will argue that they are headed the right direction.  Neither do I have any confidence that "The Lord will speak to them."  God already yelled the truth at them, and they willfully plugged their ears and told bold-faced lies in response.

Unfortunately, these types of groups are a dime a dozen, and come from all different backgrounds.  The pattern is the same, as are the results.  Can someone tell me why it's any different with the Assembly?

Brent

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moonflower2
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« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2005, 07:50:14 pm »

That's right. It's the pattern. 

And he/they will be claiming "persecution".
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vernecarty
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« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2005, 08:39:50 pm »

That's the scary part.

Waco, and David Koresh  (Vernon Howell) started off as a zealous small group within the 7th day Adventists.  He was the "underling" of a guy named Victor Houtef, and he expanded and developed Houtef's teachings into the Waco Davidians.

Jonestown, and the "Rev." Jim Jones, began as a zealous charismatic group.  They were well within the bounds of orthodoxy doctrinally...but the Rev.  had too much influence, and things progressed, to state it mildly.  As their doctrine changed, and their allegiance to their leader strenghtened, little by little they got to the point where they could drink Koolaide. 

Marshall Applewhite and his wife began as Christian ministers.  Some of the followers who drank the vodka and pills and placed the plastic bags over their heads in order to meet the spaceship were with them when they were "christians."   Certain things changed over the years, and some of their beliefs strayed from orthodox Christianity...

The common theme in all these cases is that the men leading these groups indulged in gross sin, and the men around them charged with responsibility were too insipid and weak to withstand them.
People do not sin because of wrong doctrine, rather wrong doctrine more often is promulgated by men living lives of compromise and who wish to justify their apostasy.

Quote
Geftakys began as a Christian group, and then developed some strange teachings, like 7th day creation, etc.

Are you sure about this? Unquestionably there were Christian people involved in the assemblies but I believe the jury is still out on the condition of George's soul. If he indeed is an unbeliever, and based on his conduct I don't see how we can Scripturally conclude otherwise, could one legtimately call what he started "Christian"?
I was recently taling with Tom Knox about how he observed changes in the ministry over time but the presumption that George was ever anything other than what we now see him to be may be unwarranted.
The man is a fine actor. We were all terribly lacking in discernment and that is most likely what changed with time.
Of course the man's transgression became more obvious in the latter years, but it is my opinoin that he was a devil from the beginning.

Verne

p.s George really reminds me of the warning of Paul in 1 corinthians 9.
It is a tragic picture of a person going full out all around the race track, only to get to the finish line and discover all the time they had bee nrunning outside the markers. Was there effort? Yes.
Was there perhaps even great skill? Yes! Were many possibly impressed? No doubt.
None of that would in any way change the fact at the end.
We have had people on this BB making stunningly foolish claims about what George Geftakys built.
It takes an incredible level of spiritual denseness for anyone at this point, not to have figured out that GEORGE GEFTAKYS HAS BEEN DISQUALIFIED!
« Last Edit: April 14, 2005, 08:55:16 pm by VerneCarty » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2005, 09:21:10 pm »

The common theme in all these cases is that the men leading these groups indulged in gross sin, and the men around them charged with responsibility were too insipid and weak to withstand them.
People do not sin because of wrong doctrine, rather wrong doctrine more often is promulgated by men living lives of compromise and who wish to justify their apostasy.

Are you sure about this? Unquestionably there were Christian people involved in the assemblies but I believe the jury is still out on the condition of George's soul. If he indeed is an unbeliever, and based on his conduct I don't see how we can Scripturally conclude otherwise, could one legtimately call what he started "Christian"?
I was recently taling with Tom Knox about how he observed changes in the ministry over time but the presumption that George was ever anything other than what we now see him to be may be unwarranted.
The man is a fine actor. We were all terribly lacking in discernment and that is most likely what changed with time.
Of course the man's transgression became more obvious in the latter years, but it is my opinoin that he was a devil from the beginning.

Verne

p.s George really reminds me of the warning of Paul in 1 corinthians 9.
It is a tragic picture of a person going full out all around the race track, only to get to the finish line and discover all the time they had bee nrunning outside the markers. Was there effort? Yes.
Was there perhaps even great skill? Yes! Were many possibly impressed? No doubt.
None of that would in any way change the fact at the end.
We have had people on this BB making stunningly foolish claims about what George Geftakys built.
It takes an incredible level of spiritual denseness for anyone at this point, not to have figured out that GEORGE GEFTAKYS HAS BEEN DISQUALIFIED!

We are in agreement here Verne.  I won't argue that George is saved anymore than I will argue that David Koresh was saved, although both claimed they were.  Both also claimed to be "The Lord's Servant," and both were enabled by weak, stupid men.

What I mean by saying that these groups started off as Christian is that there were Christian members, and that the doctrine and practices were undoubtedly under the umbrella of Christianity...more so at the beginning.   Over the years, things progressed and morphed into what they have become.

Here is an example of what could have happened, and what may happen in the future.

Pat Schout, a decent guy in every respect, married a good deal of money.  In 1999, while under Betty's influence, he built a 'compound' in Charleston, at great personal expense, that had a dual purpose.  It was to be a meeting facility for the midwest saints, as well as a Y2K safety zone.  Some of you will remember that at the top of the list of prayer requests for many gatherings was "emergency" preparedness, by which they meant Y2K.  I clearly remember a converasation I had with Pat, in which he shared with me a paper by Ed Yardini, on what was going to happen during Y2K.  He implored me to prepare for this, and shared with me what he was doing.  I thought he was nuts....and it turns out he was.

At the time, in SLO, people were storing water, raising rabbits and preparing for disaster, all under Betty's guidance.  One brother vigorously entreated me to be responsible and store up emergency food and gold.   I told him,  "if things really do crash, what good is gold going to be?  The banks and financial markets won't function, and you can't eat or drink gold."  I felt like my swimming pool, my backpacking filter, and our pantry was probably good enough...

The point is that people were ready to take extreme action because the leader indicated it was a good idea.  The Assembly was far from alone in this, there were plenty of kooks in those days, but Pat's compound was tragic, in my opinion.

So, if the George-loyal groups are even more close-knit, and more extreme in their views, and more detached from reality, under an even stronger persecution complex, it isn't a big leap to some sort of extreme action.  On the contrary, it is predictable and expected.  How fun and exciting to live just like one of the groups in Pilgrim Church!  How wonderful to be persecuted by the "world church" just like the Moravian Brethren!

I'm sorry to say that with the groups that remain loyal to George, the sky is the limit.  I wouldn't be surprised by anything with these people, with the exception that they come to their senses and repent.  That would indeed surprise me, and I would be extremely happy.  Unfortunately, it just doesn't happen much.

Brent
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