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Author Topic: George is Innocent  (Read 29935 times)
editor
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« on: March 01, 2004, 12:12:17 am »

Please read this:

http://www.soaringwiththeeagles.com/yabbse/index.php?board=6;action=display;threadid=159;start=0#msg498

I must say,  the only evidence against George comes from a vague letter read by the Fullerton leaders, who then discredited themselves by stepping down.  History, and plenty of firsthand testimony suggests that they are unreliable witnesses.

The man who I have accused, and possibly slandered and libeled, has maintained his innocence from day one.

He says that it never happened, and that the one thing that did happen, was years ago and that he had made it right then.  He also claims that the Fullerton leaders wanted to take over his ministry and trumped up charges against him in order to do just that.

He has called his son Timothy, "Absalom."  Timothy is regaining his stature among what is left of his father's ministry.  The Assemblies are regrouping, and at present, there is no evidence to substantiate any of the claims made against George.  

No one has come forward, other than unreliable, disloyal ex-followers of George.  What they have come forward with is the vaguest of suggestions.  There is absolutely no proof to back it up.  However, it does appear that their motive was indeed to boot George, and take over his ministry.  Afterall, that is exactly what several of them have done.  

I have been a fool caught up in my own folly in this whole affair.  The facts regarding David Geftakys, although bad, were no reason to destroy a man's ministry, and set adrift and offend those under his care.

In my foolishness, I painted George as an evil man, based on incomplete testimony, which may not have any factual basis to it at all.  

Should I be accused of slander, I would have a shakey case indeed.  Would these women be willing to tell their story in order to get me off the hook?  Probably not....they may not even exist.  Certainly, they don't want to talk.

For these reasons, I must say that I am ashamed about every bit of the website that has to do with George's adultery.  None of it is true, and he has a very solid denial and explanation for why people would do this to him.

For all we know, these women made advances toward him and he rebuffed them!  There isn't a single shred of evidence to the contrary, except a vauge suggestion in a short letter of excommunication.  

The Fullerton leadership could very well have made it up.  Certainly they had motive to do so.  Certainly we all know they made up similiar stories to slander other people over the years.  What is to stop them from doing this to George?  You can't trust them.

The Assemblies still meeting, especially those still sympathetic to George are to be commended for their courage.  They are seeing things correctly.  There is no evidence that anything ever happened, and certainly the matter was handled improperly.

They have maintained this all along, and have said that the website is mostly lies......and you know what?   They are correct on every count.

Accusations that cannot be substantiated are just plain wrong.

George never committed sexual sin with anyone.  No one can prove that he did, and the women he allegedly had "improper sexaul contact," with either do not exist, or won't say anything.

Sure, there may be some people who know better, but the vast majortiy of people have nothing more to go on than a vague suggestion in a short letter written by men who lack credibility.

I am ashamed for what I have done.  Please pray for me, that I will use wisdom in righting the wrongs that I am able to correct in this matter.  I really have no proof that I can share to back up much of what I have said regarding George's alleged sexual impropriety, therefore, I must remove things, and correct things, and apologize to George and plenty of others.

Unlike the unreliable, disloyal men in Fullerton, who pulled off what appears to be a palace coup,  I am going to admit my mistakes.  

We can't believe anything the Fullerton leaders say,  and the women they allegedly spoke to either don't exist, or won't back up a word of what they may or may not have said against George to unreliable, disloyal people.

The whole thing stinks, and I am ashamed for my part in it.

Brent

« Last Edit: March 01, 2004, 12:16:10 am by Brent A. Trockman » Logged
DavidHaan
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« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2004, 04:35:05 am »

Brent,

Why do you move the blame from george to the leadership in fullerton?  are you going apologize to us  _next_  year for _falsely_ accusing the leadership?  do you have any evidence supporting your accusations against the fullerton leadership?

david

ps.  why did it take you an entire year and thousands of posts to realize you didn't have any proof?  
« Last Edit: March 01, 2004, 04:48:48 am by DavidHaan » Logged
Kimberley Tobin
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« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2004, 04:57:30 am »

Brent,

I don't know why you're doing what you're doing, I can only surmise.  But, I for one, think it is ridiculous.

Having trusted you and gone to the link, I am now upset and irritated.  This is why in the past I have refused to read what Sondra and Matt have to say, as it just irritates me and raises my blood pressure.  I was addressed on the "soaring with seagulls" BB just prior to your post and I refuse to respond to their ridiculous responses.

I hope this accomplishes your intended purpose.
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jesusfreak
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« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2004, 05:06:10 am »

Brent

Are you joking when you label an "abusive culture" as a "small thing"?

GG's actions never have and never will be a reason for my departure from the Assembly system, nor should the actions of another sinful entity be anyone's.  

I should note, I am quite impressed by your realization regarding fairness of judgment where proof is not available.   Indeed, it does not fall upon the accused to prove innocence.  

--
lucas
« Last Edit: March 01, 2004, 05:08:21 am by Lucas Sturnfield » Logged
editor
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« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2004, 06:08:09 am »

Brent

Are you joking when you label an "abusive culture" as a "small thing"?

GG's actions never have and never will be a reason for my departure from the Assembly system, nor should the actions of another sinful entity be anyone's.  

I should note, I am quite impressed by your realization regarding fairness of judgment where proof is not available.   Indeed, it does not fall upon the accused to prove innocence.  

--
lucas

I'll respond to both Lucas and Kimberley with this one.

I think abuse is relative.  The control and brainwashing is a small thing, compared to the alleged sexual impropriety, because the level of control and abuse in order to pull that off made the pressure to go on outreach quite trivial.

Dear Kimberley, you know me better than to think that I am doing something ridiculous.   I won't argue with you about any merit in Matt's posts, but I do believe that he hit the nail on the head with the one I linked to.

We all know what happened.  I know that women came forward and spoke to a number of people and were able to convince them that real abuse took place.  There is no doubt in my mind about what happened.

However,  can I prove this?  If Matt says to me, "How do you know it is true, Brent.  Where are the women, do they exist?"  I can't answer him without divulging their identity against their will.  Furthermore, they don't talk.

No witnesses, no crime.  

And to Dave Haan:

I didn't accuse the fullerton leadership at all.  I merely stated fact.  

If you haven't figured it out, I haven't changed my stance one bit on any of this.  The only thing I came to realize is that I can't prove any of it, if forced to do so, because the only ones who really know what happened won't say anything.

The door is wide open for George and anyone else to spin this in any manner they see fit and no one can stop them.  They have the green light to do whatever they want and nobody can stop them....except for those that know what really happened.

Why should I make a stand when I have no one to back me up?

Brent
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jesusfreak
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« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2004, 09:26:38 am »

I think abuse is relative.  The control and brainwashing is a small thing, compared to the alleged sexual impropriety, because the level of control and abuse in order to pull that off made the pressure to go on outreach quite trivial.

Indeed, I do not seek to compare my "suffering" from "abuse" with that of these women; they are on 2 completely different levels.  

However, when the "abuse" I endured is solely defined by the social culture inherent to the assemblies, possessing no relation to the immorality of this single Man, it becomes an enormously big deal.

I should also note, my experiences are not in the least limited to "being forced onto outreach".  This is quite an offensive trivialization.

Anyway, I know that it was not your intent in the least to portray your comment in this way, and I am not offended in the least   Wink.  However, please understand that not everyone has the same vested interest in GG's infidelity.  I, for one, while I sympathize with those women and the unfair hardship they should never have endured, am completely unable to relate to them on more than that level.  As a result, the fact as to whether or not GG did or did not have sexual relations with them means little to my choice in departing the assembly.  

I suppose the only reason I said anything was to point out that there are more important issues than a single man's actions.   And that it should have been these issues that spurned departure..........would you still wish to be involved if GG is truly innocent?

--
lucas
« Last Edit: March 01, 2004, 09:28:26 am by Lucas Sturnfield » Logged
moonflower2
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« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2004, 10:24:16 am »


I suppose the only reason I said anything was to point out that there are more important issues than a single man's actions.   lucas

Lucas,
The man behind the instrument of all the abuse in the system was a man with flawed character. Everyone was influenced by him in every aspect of their lives, whether to abuse or be abused.  His alleged infidelity shows that he was not living what he preached to all of us. George and his behavior are the root of all the wrongs in the assemblies. His alleged abuse of women in the assembly is glaring proof of the phony he was.  
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jesusfreak
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« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2004, 10:39:05 am »


I suppose the only reason I said anything was to point out that there are more important issues than a single man's actions.   lucas

Lucas,
The man behind the instrument of all the abuse in the system was a man with flawed character. Everyone was influenced by him in every aspect of their lives, whether to abuse or be abused.  His alleged infidelity shows that he was not living what he preached to all of us. George and his behavior are the root of all the wrongs in the assemblies. His alleged abuse of women in the assembly is glaring proof of the phony he was.  

Regardless of his personal interaction with the elements that drove me away, it was still the elements and not GG.  I am not claiming that just because he might not have done the sexual deeds he is accused of that he is not a bad guy, heaven forbid.  

I have only stated that these elements exist and are important, GG's actions involving these women posing little relevance in this light.

If you choose to use his possible infidelity as a spearhead concerning the source of these elements, that is your prerogative.  It does not, however, diminish the fact that it was *not* GG who directly affected me while in the assembly.

(hi!, btw  Wink)
--
lucas
« Last Edit: March 01, 2004, 10:41:22 am by Lucas Sturnfield » Logged
moonflower2
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« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2004, 06:24:04 pm »


I suppose the only reason I said anything was to point out that there are more important issues than a single man's actions.   lucas

Lucas,
The man behind the instrument of all the abuse in the system was a man with flawed character. Everyone was influenced by him in every aspect of their lives, whether to abuse or be abused.  His alleged infidelity shows that he was not living what he preached to all of us. George and his behavior are the root of the wrongs in the assemblies. His alleged abuse of women in the assembly is glaring proof of the phony he was.  

Regardless of his personal interaction with the elements that drove me away, it was still the elements and not GG.  I am not claiming that just because he might not have done the sexual deeds he is accused of that he is not a bad guy, heaven forbid.  

I have only stated that these elements exist and are important, GG's actions involving these women posing little relevance in this light.

If you choose to use his possible infidelity as a spearhead concerning the source of these elements, that is your prerogative.  It does not, however, diminish the fact that it was *not* GG who directly affected me while in the assembly.

(hi!, btw  Wink)
--
lucas

Hi Lucas,

I believe that GG's warped life was behind all of the negative elements that drove most people away.  Everyone was affected by him. It influenced the way we looked at and treated ourselves and eachother.
He was allegedly cheating on his wife, robbing us, and allowing his son to abuse his daughter-in-law. It affected everyone.
Unless your issues were with the wooden chairs we had to sit on, you were affected by this man's life and how he treated people.  Sad
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Joe Sperling
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« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2004, 09:52:30 pm »

Brent said below "Please read this": and I clicked on the hyperlink without even thinking first. I realized seconds later that I had been taken to a thread on the SWTE website which I have avoided since I made a commitment to do so a couple of months ago.

I read a couple of paragraphs of the post and was immediately reminded of why I have avoided this website. I backed out right away, after being blasted with a familiar hissing sound I had heard before when I used to visit there.

Brent---I appreciate your post, and as always your sarcasm and wittiness, but I swear from the bottom of my heart that even responding to the nonsense that was stated, and leading others through a hyperlink to that place is detrimental, and a pure waste of time. This is just my opinion I know, but I give it in all honesty. It is far better to avoid that BB than to comment on anything that is stated there. It seems that everything posted there leads to disunity and accusation. I, for one, want to continue to avoid that place, and regret clicking on the hyperlink that led me there today. I understand why you would want to respond to it though Brent, and as always appreciate your comments. The truth will always remian the truth though, no matter how much a couple of people want to warp it, or twist it.

---Joe
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jesusfreak
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« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2004, 10:36:39 pm »

Hi Lucas,

I believe that GG's warped life was behind all of the negative elements that drove most people away.  Everyone was affected by him. It influenced the way we looked at and treated ourselves and eachother.
He was allegedly cheating on his wife, robbing us, and allowing his son to abuse his daughter-in-law. It affected everyone.
Unless your issues were with the wooden chairs we had to sit on, you were affected by this man's life and how he treated people.  Sad

I dunno....I am sure those chairs went through GG's reproof as well.... Wink

More seriously: Sure, this is quite possibly true.  However, as I had no interaction with the man, there obviously must have been *something else* that was directly affecting me.  I may not dispute the argument that GG might have been *behind* all the problems with the assembly, but that does not mean that he was the sole problem.

Anyway, as you have listed other issues GG is possible for (robbing, relations to David, ect), you understand that the issue of his infidelity is a rather redundant one when labeling him as a problem of the assembly system (since he has been pointed out time and time again).  Obviously, I am speaking from my perspective here and do not wish to trivialize the hardship faced by any woman in reference to sexual relations with GG, but GG is simply not a big deal to me in the least.  

Perhaps I choose to condemn the system rather than the people responsible for it?  One is a matter of discernment, the other a matter of judgment.....

--
lucas
« Last Edit: March 01, 2004, 10:38:14 pm by Lucas Sturnfield » Logged
moonflower2
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« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2004, 11:01:30 pm »


I dunno....I am sure those chairs went through GG's reproof as well.... Wink

More seriously: Sure, this is quite possibly true.  However, as I had no interaction with the man, there obviously must have been *something else* that was directly affecting me.  I may not dispute the argument that GG might have been *behind* all the problems with the assembly, but that does not mean that he was the sole problem.

Anyway, as you have listed other issues GG is possible for (robbing, relations to David, ect), you understand that the issue of his infidelity is a rather redundant one when labeling him as a problem of the assembly system (since he has been pointed out time and time again).  Obviously, I am speaking from my perspective here and do not wish to trivialize the hardship faced by any woman in reference to sexual relations with GG, but GG is simply not a big deal to me in the least.  

Perhaps I choose to condemn the system rather than the people responsible for it?  One is a matter of discernment, the other a matter of judgment.....

--
lucas
Quote

Well, I hope you aren't saying that I'm judging George the same way you are judging the "system".   Shocked Wink

 Grin Grin

Moonflower2
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delila
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« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2004, 09:52:15 pm »

Brent said below "Please read this": and I clicked on the hyperlink without even thinking first. I realized seconds later that I had been taken to a thread on the SWTE website which I have avoided since I made a commitment to do so a couple of months ago.

I read a couple of paragraphs of the post and was immediately reminded of why I have avoided this website. I backed out right away, after being blasted with a familiar hissing sound I had heard before when I used to visit there.

...avoid that place, and regret clicking on the hyperlink that led me there today. I understand why you would want to respond to it though Brent, and as always appreciate your comments. The truth will always remian the truth though, no matter how much a couple of people want to warp it, or twist it.

---Joe


Yes, I'd never been to that bb either, before clicking on Brent's link.  And I was sickened too.  I have a couple of theories on that board.  Hear me out, this is how I go a sorting through the B.S. of life:
1)  None of these people were ever in the assembly.  The 'Soaring' site was instead created by people playing with experimental drugs and seeking a good discussion at the same time.
2) Or perhaps all the 'people' (besides those from this board who journey out to 'reason' with the soaring group) on the soaring site are really just one guy (named Luke or something posing as one of the twelve) posting in the name of several other people to try and build a cyber army against the truth.
3) help me out... I need more theories.  This is a tough one.

delila
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delila
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« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2004, 06:38:01 am »

OH another theory on the Soaring cite:

3) ... George pays 'em to keep it up.


drj
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Mark C.
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« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2004, 07:42:33 am »

Hi All !
  I must agree with Delila, Kimberley, and Joe re. the link to the "Soaring" site as it is a place where recovering Assembly folks are sure to expierence some wolf bites.
  I think that we must try to be protective of one another, as there are some open sores that need to heal before entering into combat again.  Some of us may feel strong enough to take on that kind of fight, but we can't take the wounded with us.  Enough said on that.
  I am also in agreement with Lucas that when we only focus on GG's adultery we are trivilizing the real problems with the Assembly and really missing the point.  This was not just an issue of a church with a messed up Pastor!  The link that Jack provided re. the nature of a cult is a very good article (thanks Jack) that caused me to say, "yep, that was us!"  
   We behaved like a cult in the Assembly; that is a clear fact, and the Assembly was/is opposed to all the NT tells us His church is suppose to be like.  Yes, we had Bibles, many were born again Christians; and we did a lot of Christian like things, but like the Pharisees of Jesus time we twisted it into a form that destroy lives instead of rescuing them!
   Many of us left the Assembly before any of these stories of GG infidelities came to light and yet we were convinced that something was wrong.  Let's not trivialize those who left thinking they could not live up to the Christian life and for decades lived in great suffering as a result.  How about those who abandoned any faith in Christ and those who took their lives?  No!  We need a bumper sticker for our cars that says, THE ASSEMBLY KILLS, just as surely as drugs do!! Cry Cry
    It was enough for me 12 years ago to know that GG teaching and practices were cultic and destructive to the spiritual, psychological, social, and family lives of those under it's control.  His fooling around struck me when I heard it as, " it figures."
  For guys like Jeff, Andrew Gunther, and the like, all I can say is, "it figures", but for them I feel some real sorrow and compassion.   These guys are lying to themselves and they will reap what they sow.
                                     God Bless,  Mark C.
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