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Author Topic: What the &*%#@ (Bleep) Do We Know?  (Read 21304 times)
David Mauldin
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« on: June 06, 2005, 02:03:01 am »

If you have seen this movie I would like to get your thoughts on it. If you haven't please forgo your post.
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Joe Sperling
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« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2005, 12:52:51 am »

David---

I saw the move. I found it to be very interesting, although there were parts that I found
completely ridiculous. In one part they say the early indians could not see Columbus's boats
arriving because they had never seen boats before. The medicine man could see them due
to his high intuitiveness and described what he could see---after hearing the description they
could then make out the shapes of the boats on the horizon.

But this goes against everything--the thousands of discoveries which have been made of new
species of animals, insects, etc.--if one had to be told what he was seeing before he could see
it we would be in a great deal of trouble. So, I found the movie entertaining, but could not
agree with a lot of the theories presented.

--Joe
« Last Edit: June 07, 2005, 04:20:13 am by Joe Sperling » Logged
David Mauldin
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« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2005, 06:52:01 am »

Likewise, I have heard this explanation as to why we can't (don't) see U.F.O's.  I did learn somethings about quantum physics I didn't know about. The brain functioning stuff I learned in the Solomon books. I related the "planning my day" to experiences I had with prayer. If I give out the suggestion then I can confirm it when it happens. I think the stuff about having controle over your life through your thoughts is possible up to a point. A person can feel a lot better about themselves and their situation by thinking positively. Yet I have  seen too many people die saying things like "I am healed! I do not have cancer!"  Overall the movie is a new age comercial. A waste of time.
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Oscar
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« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2005, 09:48:15 pm »

Likewise, I have heard this explanation as to why we can't (don't) see U.F.O's.  I did learn somethings about quantum physics I didn't know about. The brain functioning stuff I learned in the Solomon books. I related the "planning my day" to experiences I had with prayer. If I give out the suggestion then I can confirm it when it happens. I think the stuff about having controle over your life through your thoughts is possible up to a point. A person can feel a lot better about themselves and their situation by thinking positively. Yet I have  seen too many people die saying things like "I am healed! I do not have cancer!"  Overall the movie is a new age comercial. A waste of time.

Dave,

I have seen it.   It is basically a Hindu evangelistic tract dressed up in "scientific" jargon.

The first scene is a display of the words, "In the beginning was the void"   The void according to Hindus, is Brahman.  The one, infinite, all-aware, impersonal being.  Everything is Brahman.

The second scene is a display of the words, "Teemng with infinite possibilities."   This is Hinduism dressed up in pseudoscience. (Quantum physics is not pseudoscience, but the interpretation they give it is.)

Think about it.  To us, "void" means nothing.  These guys are fudging.  In our universe matter and energy are the same thing in different states.  All through the universe, at the sub-atomic level, particles are "popping" into and out of existence as mattergy changes its state.

They are subtly introducing the concept of a meta-universe that has the same characteristics as our universe, and contains multiple sub-universes, of which ours is only one.  That's what all the blather about "other realities" is about.

The problem is that this has nothing to do with physics at all.  There is absolutely no evidence that any other universes exist.  Therefore, this is a metaphysical concept.   In fact, even if there are other universes it has been known since the 1930's that we could never know it.  Observers within our universe cannot observe anything that might be outside of it.

They are taking something that has been observed, that individual quantum entities behave in unpredictable ways, and are extrapolating it onto all of reality.  Hence, the claim of infinite possibilities.

They also take the fact that observing quantum entities changes their potential behavior and extrapolate that into the nonsense that we "create our own realities".

The problem with these ideas is that although there are uncertainty principles at the quantum level of reality, when aggregated into atoms, molecules, and so on up the chain to the macro world which we experience, they follow the laws of statistical probability.

That is why the chair you are sitting in as you type, which contains 3-5 quadrillion quantum entities, isn't jumping around the room, or through the wall of your house.  Its behavior is highly probabalistic to the level of being virtually deterministic under the laws of physics.

The stuff about cells and hormones, etc., again contains much truth, but it is extrapolated into nonsense.  What they are really doing is trying to prop up their belief that all of human experience is maya, illusion.  You and I are nothing but "bubbles" in the great sea of being, and we are, as the movie says, "one".

This is pure Hindu monism.   Hence, the movie is a Hindu evangelistic tract.

Fact is, the universe had a beginning.   What Hindus call "God" once didn't exist.   So, Christians ask the question, "Where did it come from?"

It certainly didn't come from a "void teeming with infinite possibilities."   This is nothing more than Deepok(ets) Chopra and Dwayne Dyer on steroids.

Thomas Maddux
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summer007
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« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2005, 10:23:10 pm »

Just a quick question. Dave I hope you don't mind I did'nt see the Movie. Do any of you practice Yoga? I know alot of the gyms offer Yoga classes and alot of Christians go and don't seem to have a problem with the basic class, yet after their bored with that level they seem to advance people to the next level with more religion "third eye blind" type of thing. I think it gives Satan a foot-hold or a toe in the door. I've never taken Yoga and have no interest in taking these "exercise classes". So any of you Yogi followers or Hindu's in regard to P.E.?  Thanks Summer.
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David Mauldin
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« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2005, 01:33:27 am »

   I took yoga for about a year and I was not moved to go onto a "higher level"  (I found it helpful in that it improved my flexability and help me forget all of my current stress.) I have no problem with another persons' religion, yet this movie was deceptive. 1. Its main purpose was to teach religion yet it wasn't advertised as such. Just like the Assembly MTT one year. We use to go around the parks up in Seatle and tell people, "Would you like to come and see a sketch board presentation?" People would get very angry after they realized they were duped into listening to a sermonette! 2. It jumped from physics to brain function to religion without clearly, logicly, reasonably explaining itself. I have heard hundreds of Christians do the same sort of thing. (I hope this doesn't offend you but if you are honest you will admit it goes on.) Just to be fair I will say I have listened to many sermons by Billy Graham (spelling?) and others who have  been vey clear to the point. I have no  problem with questions.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2005, 01:51:09 am by David Mauldin » Logged
vernecarty
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« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2005, 02:13:22 am »

   I have no problem with another persons' religion, yet this movie was deceptive. 1. Its main purpose was to teach religion yet it wasn't advertised as such. Just like the Assembly MTT one year. We use to go around the parks up in Seatle and tell people, "Would you like to come and see a sketch board presentation?" People would get very angry after they realized they were duped into listening to a sermonette! 2. It jumped from physics to brain function to religion without clearly, logicly, reasonably explaining itself. I have heard hundreds of Christians do the same sort of thing. (I hope this doesn't offend you but if you are honest you will admit it goes on.) Just to be fair I will say I have listened to many sermons by Billy Graham (spelling?) and others who have  been vey clear to the point. I have no  problem with questions.

This is one of the reasons why Christians  are so despised by some folk. There is something unseemly about people calling themselve Christians who engage in conduct whose ultimate purpose is to manipultate and mislead others. George was good at it, and evidently so were many of his disciples.
This is not the way God does business, nor should we. A few weeks back we were talking about transparency and I used that word advisedly. Once I find that person will purposely and deliberately twist and misrepresent reality in a pursiuit of whatever their agenda, I find it impossible to ever trust such a person. Of course one should always try to be polite, just not stupid. There are some "Christians" you ought not to trust.
Verne
« Last Edit: June 09, 2005, 02:16:22 am by VerneCarty » Logged
summer007
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« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2005, 02:27:31 am »

Dave,  My first thought was Oh I'm sure they won alot of converts tricking them with guile. Gee don't you want to be like them ? I think it's better to be honest in outreach. I know if some stranger came up to me in a park and invited me to a something I'd say No right off, let alone a "scetch-board presentation" don't know what that is. Guess that's why it says," he who wins souls is wise".  Summer.
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vernecarty
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« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2005, 06:21:43 am »

The problem is that this has nothing to do with physics at all.  There is absolutely no evidence that any other universes exist.  Therefore, this is a metaphysical concept.   In fact, even if there are other universes it has been known since the 1930's that we could never know it.  Observers within our universe cannot observe anything that might be outside of it.

They are taking something that has been observed, that individual quantum entities behave in unpredictable ways, and are extrapolating it onto all of reality.  Hence, the claim of infinite possibilities.

They also take the fact that observing quantum entities changes their potential behavior and extrapolate that into the nonsense that we "create our own realities".

The problem with these ideas is that although there are uncertainty principles at the quantum level of reality, when aggregated into atoms, molecules, and so on up the chain to the macro world which we experience, they follow the laws of statistical probability.

That is why the chair you are sitting in as you type, which contains 3-5 quadrillion quantum entities, isn't jumping around the room, or through the wall of your house.  Its behavior is highly probabalistic to the level of being virtually deterministic under the laws of physics.

The stuff about cells and hormones, etc., again contains much truth, but it is extrapolated into nonsense.  What they are really doing is trying to prop up their belief that all of human experience is maya, illusion.  You and I are nothing but "bubbles" in the great sea of being, and we are, as the movie says, "one".

This is pure Hindu monism.   Hence, the movie is a Hindu evangelistic tract.

Fact is, the universe had a beginning.   What Hindus call "God" once didn't exist.   So, Christians ask the question, "Where did it come from?"

It certainly didn't come from a "void teeming with infinite possibilities."   This is nothing more than Deepok(ets) Chopra and Dwayne Dyer on steroids.

Thomas Maddux

There are quite a few string theoreticians and  also quite a few mainstram astro-physicists that would disagree with you Tom. These guys are as hard-nosed as they come so far as mathematical rigour in science is concerned. They used to also pooh-pooh the concepy of multi-diemnsional reality as nonsense. They are now changing their tune because of some of the findings of string theory. Some of the predictions of the theory are , as you point out, impossib le to prove with the current state of knowledge. Not all are though...
Verne
« Last Edit: June 09, 2005, 06:24:41 am by VerneCarty » Logged
David Mauldin
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« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2005, 07:04:03 am »

Vern, Summer I quite agree. In the assembly I really hated the practice of deception.

Honest question: "Who are you people?" 

Assembly answer: "We are just Christians."

Honest question: "No" "I mean, Who are you?"

Assembly (run around the bush) answer: "We are just Christians!" 
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summer007
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« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2005, 10:19:47 am »

Really David were just Christians (just kidding!). Well don't worry it seems with time assm memories start fading out, course I don't know how long it takes for someone in for 15 years. It is nice to see Christians who don't have the assm hang-ups.   Kiss   Summer.
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vernecarty
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« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2005, 02:19:07 pm »

Vern, Summer I quite agree. In the assembly I really hated the practice of deception.

Honest question: "Who are you people?" 

Assembly answer: "We are just Christians."

Honest question: "No" "I mean, Who are you?"

Assembly (run around the bush) answer: "We are just Christians!" 

This is what George taught us. He knew the things he was doing in secret from the very begining were not normal. For that reaason he went to a lot of trouble to have assembly people emphasize the fact that were just "plain" Christians. In the minds of most of us who did not know the kind of man George really was, that is exactly what we considered ourselves to be and we were oh so proud of it.
This is one of the ways George used the innocnece and trust of so many to camouflage his own perversion. Dave I don't know if you were in the inner circle or not but it is interesting to hear you state that the deception was obvious to you. This is the point I have been trying to make all along.
You could not be a normal human being, much less a person with any kind of relationship with God, who could not tell that something was wrong with the way we were doing things.
When I left, one of the things I told the Lord was that I am not sure what it is is not right, but something was. I still remember the great peace I felt over my decision to leave that awful place.
Verne
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outdeep
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« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2005, 05:43:45 pm »

This is what George taught us. He knew the things he was doing in secret from the very begining were not normal. For that reaason he went to a lot of trouble to have assembly people emphasize the fact that were just "plain" Christians. In the minds of most of us who did not know the kind of man George really was, that is exactly what we considered ourselves to be and we were oh so proud of it.
This is one of the ways George used the innocnece and trust of so many to camouflage his own perversion. Dave I don't know if you were in the inner circle or not but it is interesting to hear you state that the deception was obvious to you. This is the point I have been trying to make all along.
You could not be a normal human being, much less a person with any kind of relationship with God, who could not tell that something was wrong with the way we were doing things.
When I left, one of the things I told the Lord was that I am not sure what it is is not right, but something was. I still remember the great peace I felt over my decision to leave that awful place.
Verne
Just FYI:  I don't think the rational behind being "just Christians" was a plot to deceive.  The thinking goes back to the very beginning of Plymouth Brethren Assemblies.  According to H.A. Ironside's history (from memory and it has been over 20 years since I read it) when the early PB founders became Christians, they were surprised that they were required to join a particular denomination chuch.  Why did they have to decide?  Why couldn't they just meet simply as Christians?  Why couldn't we be "just Christians"?  This was the basic idea behind the beginning of the Brethren gatherings.

The "just Christians" idea was to take a stand against denominationalism which supposedly divides the church and to model the correct way Christians are to gather - unto Christ with nothing else.

In reality, I think we just because another sect (even more divisive because we were exclusive) and I also am not convinced that denominations demonstrate a disunified body.
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David Mauldin
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« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2005, 08:56:01 pm »

Dave's right, this practice of "Were just Christians" was around in the Plymouth Bretheren Assembly I attended. Knowing H.A. was a very progressive thinking P.B. I am sure his thoughts behind 'We are just Christians" had more to do with the "Non-sectarianism" ideals of One Body or Church. (what we proffessed but in truth practiced the opposite.) Yet while I was with Geftakys and someone asked me the question, "who are you people?"  I knew that the brothers wanted me to say, "We're just Christians!" and leave out a few details such as "We have to subject our entire lives to our leaders!" "We can't date without permision!"  "We have to attend the all night of prayer unless we're sick!" "Masterbation is O.K. as long as you don't think about sex!" "And Oh' by the way" "That book, "Churches that Abuse" is a lie!" "don't read it!" "So"  "Do you want to come out our meetings?"
« Last Edit: June 09, 2005, 09:07:13 pm by David Mauldin » Logged
summer007
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« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2005, 09:25:15 pm »

I remember occasionally their would be someone at work who'd say," oh I'm a christian too." Well that just was'nt good enough  Roll Eyes unless you were in the assm you most likely had a meager, bare, salvation. How wrong that kind of thinking is. Alot of big Ego's in the place.
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