Do We Have to Keep Our Commitments?

[M2]

I have a mouth on me, no doubt.  And fingers too, that type faster than I speak, generally.

I have this to say about marriage, about homosexuals, about any 'issue' or 'topic' for which one can reach into their tissue thin pages and pull out a verse, or fire verses from guns as I mentioned earlier:

What are the scriptures?
Somebody else's mail?
Quotes?
Words, word of God?  A collection of geneologies, records of various coloured peoples and their fathers and sons, with a few women thrown in?

The Scriptures are God's Word. But then I think that you knew I'd say that, so I am just confirming your suspicions here.

And I have another question:

What would Jesus have done?

The answers to these questions tell us much about our individual religions.  But to do justice and to love mercy and to walk humbly with thy God.  What is pure and undefiled religion?  NO, I'm not finished.  Bear with me.

Great verse. and good questions to ask oneself each time one has to make a decision.

Here's a George trap:
To believe that the verses in the bible can be fired like a pop gun in order to fix people's lives.  We make bold statements on the BB about issues like divorce, and here I speak not simply for myself.  We made similar bold statements to one another in the gg dynasty about what was 'God's will' in our lives, like we knew.  

Can we do this?  Can we just take a notion: God hates divorce, for example and pass it out like we're feeding the ten thousand with it?  Do we think we do anyone a favour by raving about homosexuals and their right or no rights to marriage?  Does this heal people?  Does this help anyone?  Or are we continuing the GG traditions like faithful ones, dishin' it out.

I don't know If I'll call myself a Christian.  I admire Christ, his treatment of those who were stepped on, how he didn't just quote scripture and tell people to submit and then pass on.  Take three Eph 2 or 3's and call me in the morning.  I think, instead, I'll stick with my conscience, consider scripture, question and learn and rethink and figure and say:  I don't know,  but I think...

I think.  I'll be very careful to pass judgement on other people's lives.  The divorce rates have risen over the past couple decades haven't they?  More domestic abuse is reported now too.  More shelters for abused women exist now too.  I've worked in many of them as a family crisis worker while I went to university.  We can not look at numbers and statistics and think for a moment that we know anything about the reality of people's hell.  To say that God hates divorce, well, he may not like licorice either, or cotton candy, I don't know.  But I know he loves the protection of the downtrodden and many verses too precious little to procure that.

Cheers

Delila

This is where the shoe leather hits the road.  Yes the scriptures are where we learn of Christ, how He would respond in each situation.  He did not condemn the woman caught in adultery even though the Scripture demanded that the adulterous man and the woman be stoned to death.  God hates divorce, and the kids do hurt when their parents get divorced &/or have an unhappy relationship.  However, I gathered from the discussion on this thread, and I agree, that each marriage situation must be evaluated on its own merit re. divorce.

Definitely, the problem with Geftakysism was the performance based righteousness, which attempted to put everyone into the same mold.  Christ was out of the picture, and Pharisaism was "in".

MIC 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God?

Lord bless,
Marcia

[Oscar]

I have a mouth on me, no doubt.  And fingers too, that type faster than I speak, generally.

I have this to say about marriage, about homosexuals, about any 'issue' or 'topic' for which one can reach into their tissue thin pages and pull out a verse, or fire verses from guns as I mentioned earlier:

What are the scriptures?
Somebody else's mail?
Quotes?
Words, word of God?  A collection of geneologies, records of various coloured peoples and their fathers and sons, with a few women thrown in?

And I have another question:

What would Jesus have done?

The answers to these questions tell us much about our individual religions.  But to do justice and to love mercy and to walk humbly with thy God.  What is pure and undefiled religion?  NO, I'm not finished.  Bear with me.

Here's a George trap:
To believe that the verses in the bible can be fired like a pop gun in order to fix people's lives.  We make bold statements on the BB about issues like divorce, and here I speak not simply for myself.  We made similar bold statements to one another in the gg dynasty about what was 'God's will' in our lives, like we knew.  

Can we do this?  Can we just take a notion: God hates divorce, for example and pass it out like we're feeding the ten thousand with it?  Do we think we do anyone a favour by raving about homosexuals and their right or no rights to marriage?  Does this heal people?  Does this help anyone?  Or are we continuing the GG traditions like faithful ones, dishin' it out.

I don't know If I'll call myself a Christian.  I admire Christ, his treatment of those who were stepped on, how he didn't just quote scripture and tell people to submit and then pass on.  Take three Eph 2 or 3's and call me in the morning.  I think, instead, I'll stick with my conscience, consider scripture, question and learn and rethink and figure and say:  I don't know,  but I think...

I think.  I'll be very careful to pass judgement on other people's lives.  The divorce rates have risen over the past couple decades haven't they?  More domestic abuse is reported now too.  More shelters for abused women exist now too.  I've worked in many of them as a family crisis worker while I went to university.  We can not look at numbers and statistics and think for a moment that we know anything about the reality of people's hell.  To say that God hates divorce, well, he may not like licorice either, or cotton candy, I don't know.  But I know he loves the protection of the downtrodden and many verses too precious little to procure that.

Cheers

Delila

Delila,

In the post quoted above you have touched on a variety of subjects, any one of which could spark an extended discussion.

In some cases you trivialize other folk's opinions.  In others you make moral assertions.

It is much easier to point out what you think is wrong with another's position than it is to argue for a position positively stated.

Regarding divorce, the statements Jesus made constituted a virtual declaration of war on some ideas that were current in His days.

The Pharisees had some "schools of thought" within their own movement.  One was led by rabbi Hillel, who taught that divorce was only for serious causes.  Another, led by rabbi Shamai, taught what we would call today, "no fault divorce".  The one difference was that only men could initiate it in those days.

Jesus side-stepped the debate by saying: "...everyone who divorces his wife, except for the cause of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery" (Matt 5:32).

Much could be said about the cultural/economic context of the verse, further teaching by Jesus or Paul, and so on.

However, I think we can safely say, in light of "what would Jesus do", that He would consider divorce a VERY serious issue that is only a legitimate action in a VERY few circumstances.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

[outdeep]

I think.  I'll be very careful to pass judgement on other people's lives.  The divorce rates have risen over the past couple decades haven't they?  More domestic abuse is reported now too.  More shelters for abused women exist now too.  I've worked in many of them as a family crisis worker while I went to university.  We can not look at numbers and statistics and think for a moment that we know anything about the reality of people's hell.  To say that God hates divorce, well, he may not like licorice either, or cotton candy, I don't know.  But I know he loves the protection of the downtrodden and many verses too precious little to procure that.

In your original post you said you were not talking about abuse situations at least in reference to your own circumstances.  But, since you later brought up abuse, I think some response is in order.  

I don’t know of an Evangelical pastor would not counsel at least separation when there is abuse.  Even Steve Irons counseled that in a particular case I know in the Assembly.  The only person I know who says one ought to stay together in abuse is David Geftakys and he was demented and an abuser himself.

Whether the separation should also include divorce as well as remarriage (as Tom says, one of the “few circumstances”), Evangelical Christians are divided on that one.

[delila]

I think.  I'll be very careful to pass judgement on other people's lives.  The divorce rates have risen over the past couple decades haven't they?  More domestic abuse is reported now too.  More shelters for abused women exist now too.  I've worked in many of them as a family crisis worker while I went to university.  We can not look at numbers and statistics and think for a moment that we know anything about the reality of people's hell.  To say that God hates divorce, well, he may not like licorice either, or cotton candy, I don't know.  But I know he loves the protection of the downtrodden and many verses too precious little to procure that.

In your original post you said you were not talking about abuse situations at least in reference to your own circumstances.  But, since you later brought up abuse, I think some response is in order.  

I don’t know of an Evangelical pastor would not counsel at least separation when there is abuse.  Even Steve Irons counseled that in a particular case I know in the Assembly.  The only person I know who says one ought to stay together in abuse is David Geftakys and he was demented and an abuser himself.

Whether the separation should also include divorce as well as remarriage (as Tom says, one of the “few circumstances”), Evangelical Christians are divided on that one.

In all painful honesty:
I think divorce is often our last ditch effort to pull our etcha scetches clean again - to tell ourselves we can start again, that our whole lives are not wasted just b/c we've chosen poorly... b/c b/c b/c
Separation can help us protect our children, this I know.  But to be legally divorced or not... to ever be able to contemplate an ever after with anyone else... that is just as much a sore spot as every contemplation one has to return to a brutally painful marriage.  There are no ready and easy answers.  Really, my whole point on this thread has been that we have no space to tell one another what 'God wants' as we did when once assembly followers.  I think that in many ways, God is silent b/c he wants us to choose, not to imply His will for one another.  And I'm NOT saying that people were doing that on this thread.  I'm saying that that's what I learned in the assembly, and I hope I'm not the only one who thinks that giving that kind of directive is wrong.  If it weren't, I wonder why God didn't make it one of the ten commandments.

drj

[outdeep]

I think I understand what you are saying and I would agree to a point.  However, allow me to make a clarification.

I believe we can tell people some things that God wants; otherwise, there is no sense in having a religion.  I think we can confidently tell people that God does not want us to plan out and murder politicians we don’t like.  He doesn’t want us to rape our neighbor’s wife.  He doesn’t want us to shoplift hot dogs from the grocery store.

However, some Christians reduce God’s will to a practice called prooftexting.   To illustrate, I was 19 years old when I came into the Assembly in 1978.  I was worried because there was some scuffles in the Middle East and there was a real possibility (that never panned out) that they might reinstate the draft.  I always assumed I would go if I was called up, but then Tim Geftakys says to me, “How can you go and kill people?  The Bible says, ‘Thou shalt nor murder.’”

I have since learned that this verse of the Ten Commandments is dealing more with premeditated murder in society rather than a statement whether Christians should sign up for the Army.  Nevertheless, Tim took a verse, slapped it on me, and that was the end of discussion (in his mind) about being available for the draft.

Prooftexting is popular for those who don’t want to take the time to study and think comprehensively.  But, it is shallow.

On the other hand, just because Tim “prooftexted” me, it would be wrong for me to say, “well then, I don’t believe we can tell people what God wants about going to war and we certainly can’t tell people what God wants about killing.”  Frankly, the Bible says much about when you can and cannot kill.  The problem is not that God’s opinions are unknown.   You just can’t represent God by slapping a favorite non-contextualized verse on someone and saying, “end of discussion”.

Marriage is a fundamental theme and institution that was initiated in Genesis, discussed by Jesus and expounded even more by the epistle writers.  To say that God doesn’t have anything to say about marriage is simply wrong.

If you do choose to do some reading and get understand about God’s purpose in marriage (Christian bookstores overfloweth with marriage and family books), it is beyond my capacity to tell you how to work God’s ideals for marriage into your present situation.  Further, I cannot ascertain if it is even possible for you to have a Christian marriage in your current state.  Have you and your spouse loused up the relationship to such an extent that it is completely unsalvageable?  Here, you need an expert to answer and I am not one.

[Kimberley Tobin]

Dave,

While I agree with you in THEORY; i.e. there is much in scripture that gives us direction for our lives, etc.  I don't believe we can go around telling people what they should or should not do with their lives.

Christians for centuries have made the mistake (and thus the bad reputation) of poking their noses into other people's business (I am NOT talking about the legal issues i.e. murder-ie abortion, civil law, etc.)  I am talking about their PERSONAL choices in life.  My feeling, POST assembly, is that the most effective tool is not to IMPOSE my opinion upon people, but to be INVITED to respond.  While I don't necessarily have to AGREE with someone's choices (i.e. I might not have made that choice, BUT how can I even know that..........I'm not living their life) I still LOVE THEM.  This is what enables dialogue.  This is RELATIONSHIP.  Relationships are what enables us to effectively impact people and their lives (for Christ and eternity,) not dictims.

Christians often lose their audience by spouting scripture, believing that is what wins those who are listening.  That is often proved to be the exact opposite.  Please don't sight the scripture that spouts that it is by the hearing of the word that people are saved.  Salvation through the word is one thing.  Being CONDEMNED by the scripture is another.

[outdeep]

Kimberly,

How is what you are saying different than what I said?  Specifically, what is it that I am proposing in my post below that you disagree with?

-Dave

[Kimberley Tobin]

Dave:

I don't REALLY know if you and I disagree or not.  But I would not UNLESS INVITED discuss people's marital status/problems, what they should or shouldn't do in their marriage.  Please note the qualifying words - UNLESS INVITED.

The point I was trying to make, is that Christians, because they have the bible, THE only document we have that we believe is directly from God, we use it AGAINST people.  If I, UNINVITED, begin to tell people what they should and shouldn't do, because of how I interpret the scriputres, in my never to be humble opinion, we are OUT OF LINE.  

Christ did not give us a directive to tell other people what to do.  He told us to preach the gospel, not maintain the law.

Yes, God has a lot to say about a lot of things, but the only direction I received from my savior was to preach the gospel, not to make sure that people kept the law (i.e. God hates divorce.)  If I am INVITED by someone to share my OPINION, then I can share FROM MY HEART, how I interpret the scriptures.  But this is not a direction from God and perhaps isn't even what God wants the person to do - we're not God, how can we speak to someone else's situation so vehemently and say, "I know the will of God for your life"?  We can't.  Only God knows what His will is for other people.  I can only share FROM MY HEART.  And sharing from the heart is a far cry then just expounding on what the scriptures say.

[Joe Sperling]

Kimberley----

I totally have to agree with what you are saying. It is very easy to use the Bible AGAINST people. And we can be so hypocritical when we do it too.

We could say to some teenager "The Lord doesn't like tattoos you know---says so in the Bible" while we chow down on a burger and wash it down with milk(the Lord says not to mix meat and dairy products in the Law too).


 And we can quantify and qualify certain things as bad beyond other things too. "The Lord hates divorce you know". Yet, it goes without saying that God hates lying, stealing, murder, gluttony, drug use, adultery...etc., etc.. too.  In the Assembly, because the Bible defined a Bishop as being "the husband of one wife", brothers who had been divorced(even BEFORE being saved!!) could not become "leading brothers". But what if this verse is referring to polygamy? And what of "If any man be in Christ he is a new creation, ALL THINGS have become new"?  "Sorry---applies to everything but divorce. Oh--you used to be a heroin addict? Everything has become new!!! Oh---you used to be a bank robber? You are forgiven!! ALL has become new!!! Oh---you used to practice witchcraft? You are forgiven!! All has become new!!  Oh---you were once divorced?  Ewwww.
wish I could help you with that one...God hates divorce you know....you can attend here, but don't ever think of being a leader...that 'everything has become new' stuff applies to everything but divorce. Sorry brother".

That teaching always used to amaze me  when I was in the Assembly. I never understood it.

--Joe

[Peacefulg]

Milk with a hamburger, now I see a shake (dang wish they had In-N-Out here).  Also that means my double cheese burger is out as well, and heaven forbid I do a double bacon cheese burger!    .  

BTW; are we still not to provke and encourage one another to love and good works (notice that verse was not given to leadership alone, because I know some Assembly leaders abused it)?  Here I go again stepping on toes!  

Cheers
G

[outdeep]

Kimberly,

What I hear you saying is that we should not approach people we don’t know and give unsolicited advise – especially the type that carries the authoritarian weight of “thus says the Lord”.  It not only alienates the poor victim but it probably isn’t an accurate representation of what the Lord wants since we don’t know the person and do not understand his or her circumstances.

I have many memories of participating in such practices many years ago – especially while witnessing.  I can recall times where I flipped to a verse somewhere and used it as a definitive command for someone to, say, leave the Catholic Church or come to a Bible Study or have a quiet time, etc.

I think you have to understand that I have been out of the Assembly for 14 years and even in the latter years started backing away from such practices.  I won’t go into a lengthy defense, but I don’t believe my comments on this thread reflect the stereotype you are seeking to rebut.  I have simply been sharing my personal opinions in response to Delila’s comments and questions which she, not I, initiated.  I haven’t given her any advise about her situation specifically and on at least two occasions stated plainly that I don’t know what she should do.

I appreciate your zeal for shedding the Assembly thinking of the past, but I think we are actually on the same side on this one.

-Dave

[sfortescue]

(the Lord says not to mix meat and dairy products in the Law too)

I think you're mistaken about that.

[Joe Sperling]

Stephen----

"According to Jewish Law, it is prohibited to cook meat and milk together. It is also forbidden to eat meat and
milk together, or to derive any benefit from such a mixture. Milk and meat must be kept as separate as possible."

http://www.siks.org/whatiskosher.html

This probably all comes from the one verse which reads: "you shall not seethe a kid in it's mother's milk"--whether this teaches not to mix meat and dairy products is up for question.

What I was basically trying to say though is that it is easy to espouse one part of what the Law teaches while breaking another part. This has happened in the past when witches were burned--yet those same people who burned the witches most likely ate pork.

--Joe

[moonflower2]

And when do we hear from all the children who grew up in homes where the parents 'stuck together for the good of the children' and the children suffered more than they would have if the marriage was dissolved.  Sometimes, we presume we know what's best for everyone.  

I too have made this mistake.  It is a mistake.  You are mistaken.

I think.

Delila

Delila,

I'm a divorced mother, and children suffer when a family is divorced. No matter how bad it is, they don't really want mom and dad to divorce. It's their father who is gone. We as wives may be better off, but unless we or the kids are being physically/sexually abused, statistics and articles show that the kids are better off in a family where mom and dad stay together.  In fact, the only kids who do fare better are the ones from a divorced family where abuse was the norm.  

I realize that I don't know your situation at all, but I feel I need to post a little about the affects that divorce does have on kids.
Be prepared for anger and blame from the kids that are focused on you when the kids are going thru different stages in their development, because it will be coming. Just be prepared for it.

I'm not passing judgement on you, or telling you what to do. I grew up in a dysfunctional famiy and wished that my folks had gotten divorced. But looking back and learning now about the long-term affects of divorce on kids, I not so sure that I would have been better off.

And I'm not saying that you will get remarried, but from what I've personally seen with "blended" families, they are an incredibly difficult venture. In my opinion, not worth all it would take to get it going, if it ever would. It's another situation that seems unfair for the kids. It asks so much of them; accepting new siblings, a new parent. And in most cases, they had no say in the matter.

Again, I have no idea at all of your living situation, but have you asked your children what they think about a divorce?

Moonflower2

[Kimberley Tobin]

Dave,

I would say, for the most part, you are right.  We are on the same side.  However, you stated, "What I hear you saying is that we should not approach people we don’t know and give unsolicited advise".  That is not EXACTLY what I believe.  I don't think you should approach people YOU KNOW, UNLESS INVITED.  I am not God.  God did not call me to intervene in others lives' to tell them what HE believes about their lives.  I don't care how much direction is given in the bible regarding marriage (or other life situations.)  IF, AND ONLY IF INVITED, would I DARE to comment on someone else's situations.  It is NOT my place.  And it is offensive.  The Pharisee's were VERY good at this.

I have had experience with this in the very recent past with someone very dear to me (noone needs to know the circumstances.)  Because we share a deep friendship, in a very tender moment, we were able to discuss spiritual issues and the impact of decisions that clearly would not be pleasing to God.  I did not offend, I was VERY careful to share in a tender, compassionate, non-judgemental way with this friend.  BUT, I was invited to this discussion.  I did not impose my opinions UNASKED.  

This is the difference I am talking about.  People WON'T hear you, if they haven't asked to LISTEN.  I love people. I might dislike their sin.  But Christ won people through relationship, not in condemnation and a holier than thou, "I have the truth, you should listen to me" type of attitude.  I am striving to be more like my savior in these endeavors.  I am sure you are too, Dave.  I'm not wanting to split hairs, but I do believe there is a distinction to be made.