Do We Have to Keep Our Commitments?

[outdeep]

This is the difference I am talking about.  People WON'T hear you, if they haven't asked to LISTEN.  I love people. I might dislike their sin.  But Christ won people through relationship, not in condemnation and a holier than thou, "I have the truth, you should listen to me" type of attitude.  I am striving to be more like my savior in these endeavors.  I am sure you are too, Dave.  I'm not wanting to split hairs, but I do believe there is a distinction to be made.

I'm striving to understand what difference or distinction you are talking about.

I keep saying, "I did not give unsolicited advice."

Then you keep saying,  "Yeah, but I believe that people shouldn't give unsolicited advice."

How is this different?

[Scott McCumber]

This is the difference I am talking about.  People WON'T hear you, if they haven't asked to LISTEN.  I love people. I might dislike their sin.  But Christ won people through relationship, not in condemnation and a holier than thou, "I have the truth, you should listen to me" type of attitude.  I am striving to be more like my savior in these endeavors.  I am sure you are too, Dave.  I'm not wanting to split hairs, but I do believe there is a distinction to be made.

I'm striving to understand what difference or distinction you are talking about.

I keep saying, "I did not give unsolicited advice."

Then you keep saying,  "Yeah, but I believe that people shouldn't give unsolicited advice."

How is this different?

Dave,

You really should stop giving unsolicited advice.

S

[delila]

And when do we hear from all the children who grew up in homes where the parents 'stuck together for the good of the children' and the children suffered more than they would have if the marriage was dissolved.  Sometimes, we presume we know what's best for everyone.  


I too have made this mistake.  It is a mistake.  You are mistaken.

I think.

Delila

Delila,

I'm a divorced mother, and children suffer when a family is divorced. No matter how bad it is, they don't really want mom and dad to divorce. It's their father who is gone. We as wives may be better off, but unless we or the kids are being physically/sexually abused, statistics and articles show that the kids are better off in a family where mom and dad stay together.  In fact, the only kids who do fare better are the ones from a divorced family where abuse was the norm.  

I realize that I don't know your situation at all, but I feel I need to post a little about the affects that divorce does have on kids.
Be prepared for anger and blame from the kids that are focused on you when the kids are going thru different stages in their development, because it will be coming. Just be prepared for it.

I'm not passing judgement on you, or telling you what to do. I grew up in a dysfunctional famiy and wished that my folks had gotten divorced. But looking back and learning now about the long-term affects of divorce on kids, I not so sure that I would have been better off.

And I'm not saying that you will get remarried, but from what I've personally seen with "blended" families, they are an incredibly difficult venture. In my opinion, not worth all it would take to get it going, if it ever would. It's another situation that seems unfair for the kids. It asks so much of them; accepting new siblings, a new parent. And in most cases, they had no say in the matter.

Again, I have no idea at all of your living situation, but have you asked your children what they think about a divorce?

Moonflower2

Dear Moonflower2:

We have more in common than I imagined.  I too was brought up in a dysfunctional/abusive home.  My mother threatened to use the door regularly.  My father threatened to throw her through it.  Alas, we hung (literally) on to their legs and tried to keep them apart while they beat one another.

When I saw I could no longer shield my children from the abuse (mostly verbal/emotional) in my own house, I asked my husband to leave.  The worst scars I got growing up, weren't from beatings.  I think the studies are interesting.  Whether I remain seperated for the rest of my life or get a divorce, my children will not suffer more abuse from living with their father.  There is a civil exchange between us during pick up and delivery of the children.  My daughter was sad, as she put it, that she'd no longer have a dad.  But she has not forgotten what it was like to constantly walk on egg shells, to have no ability to defend herself or reason against his constant anger.  I have to live with my conscience, I guess, just like you do.

drj

[outdeep]

Original quote:

Line up the firing squad.  I'm currently filing for divorce.  Out of consideration for the children, I will wait out the year and not file on the grounds of 'cruelty'.  There's no adultery either.  

Most Recent quote:

When I saw I could no longer shield my children from the abuse (mostly verbal/emotional) in my own house, I asked my husband to leave.  The worst scars I got growing up, weren't from beatings.

Thank you for clarifying this.  Your original quote gave the impression that there was no abuse.  I'm sorry for what you had to endure.  Obviously, I have no way of validating your claim, but most Christians I know would agree that if genuine abuse is happening then separation is in order.

[M2]

This is the difference I am talking about.  People WON'T hear you, if they haven't asked to LISTEN.  I love people. I might dislike their sin.  But Christ won people through relationship, not in condemnation and a holier than thou, "I have the truth, you should listen to me" type of attitude.  I am striving to be more like my savior in these endeavors.  I am sure you are too, Dave.  I'm not wanting to split hairs, but I do believe there is a distinction to be made.

I'm striving to understand what difference or distinction you are talking about.

I keep saying, "I did not give unsolicited advice."

Then you keep saying,  "Yeah, but I believe that people shouldn't give unsolicited advice."

How is this different?

Dave and Kimberley,

I have not been involved in this discussion between the 2 of you, but have read your posts when you posted them. As Dave has said, it looks like both of you are indeed saying the same thing.  Delila asked a question, Dave gave his opinion.  This is not unsolicited IMO.  Of course, any of us has the right to bring in something new into the discussion, because we are seeking answers ourselves, or giving information. But that would not be unsolicited either because of the nature of this BB.

Anyway, I agree with you Kimberley that we need to be sensitive with the kind of advice we give and when we give it.  There have been situations when I have made comments (advice) to ones I considered to be friends without them having asked me first.  But it was based on my previous history of friendship and listening to them in the past, that gave me that liberty to do so.

Re. divorce - many marriages remind me of Ro 2:28-29 where the only real indication of marriage is that they have a marriage license, wear a wedding band, and live under the same roof, but otherwise they are divorced from each other.
(Rom 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.)

Happy posting,
and Lord bless,
Marcia

[moonflower2]

Dear Moonflower2:

We have more in common than I imagined.  I too was brought up in a dysfunctional/abusive home.  My mother threatened to use the door regularly.  My father threatened to throw her through it.  Alas, we hung (literally) on to their legs and tried to keep them apart while they beat one another.

When I saw I could no longer shield my children from the abuse (mostly verbal/emotional) in my own house, I asked my husband to leave.  The worst scars I got growing up, weren't from beatings.  I think the studies are interesting.  Whether I remain seperated for the rest of my life or get a divorce, my children will not suffer more abuse from living with their father.  There is a civil exchange between us during pick up and delivery of the children.  My daughter was sad, as she put it, that she'd no longer have a dad.  But she has not forgotten what it was like to constantly walk on egg shells, to have no ability to defend herself or reason against his constant anger.  I have to live with my conscience, I guess, just like you do.

drj

_________________________________________
Delila,

It becomes like a recurring nightmare doesn't it? You want a family that is different from the one you had growing up, and in my case, it was worse.
I called the police on my husband the night that two of my boys were pounding their dad on the back to get him to stop hitting me. It made me realize that it was upsetting the kids enough so that they wanted to do something about it. That was enough!
My husband left when I wouldn't drop the charges. He didn't want counselling, but his agreement to it is what kept him from getting any permanent record.

Even tho my husband initiated leaving and a divorce, from time to time as my kids grew up, they went through an "angry with mom" stage. Are they better off? Yes!

How well I remember that "walking on eggshells" life. The kids had to do it, too. You just never knew. This had gone on for a number of years and it was a relief when it was finally over.

By the way, I didn't call the police in the presence of the children . I don't recommend doing that or having their father arrested in their presence.

Moonflower2

[Kimberley Tobin]

Kimberly,

What I hear you saying is that we should not approach people we don’t know and give unsolicited advise –

Dave

OK.  Let me try and clarify.  Read your above statement......."we should not approach people WE DON'T KNOW" (emphasis mine.)  Using logic, this would mean that you WOULD approach people who you DO KNOW.  If this is not your meaning, I apologize, but you made the distinction, not me.  What I am trying to state, is that I don't believe you ever give UNSOLICITED advice.  I'm not talking about your "advice" to Delila.  I'm talking about your generalization about the subject and your statement above.  Hope this clarifies.  Certainly willing to clarify further if necessary.

[outdeep]

OK.  Let me try and clarify.  Read your above statement......."we should not approach people WE DON'T KNOW" (emphasis mine.)  Using logic, this would mean that you WOULD approach people who you DO KNOW.  

Are you saying that we should never post unless we know the person?

What I am trying to state, is that I don't believe you ever give UNSOLICITED advice.

Or are you saying that we should never post unless the person expressly asks us our opinion first(unsolicited means giving advice without first being asked)?

I'm not talking about your "advice" to Delila.  I'm talking about your generalization about the subject and your statement above.  Hope this clarifies.  Certainly willing to clarify further if necessary.

Are you saying I should not have generalize about committments without first being asked?  Or are you saying that I should not have generalize about unsolicited posts (what you call "my statment about") without being asked?

[Kimberley Tobin]

Dave:

First, I am not addressing with my previous post, the BB.  We were talking (I thought) about giving advice to people we knew and didn't know (outside of the BB.)  I tried to clarify that with my statement re: this didn't apply to your "advice" to Delila (of which, I will comment in a moment.)  Let me repeat, what I AM ADDRESSING, is in our daily contact with people (not on the BB.)  Just because you KNOW someone (not on the BB), does not give you the right to give UNSOLICITED advice.  I was assuming that your comments were directed in that regard, not our interaction within the BB community.

Just by the nature of the BB being a public domain and there is dialogue back and forth and asking of questions or putting forth statements that anyone can respond to, it places the BB context into a different category.

Having said that, I do believe there needs to be a modicum of discretion and care when responding to someone on the BB with sensative topics (i.e. divorce.)  

For example, your post below:

I'm not going to analyze your divorse from across the country on a bulletin board.  Why do you want me to fire verses at you?  So you can confirm to your heart that we Christians are nothing but insensitive, out-of-touch prudes who follow a God who is irrelevant?

Divorse is legal and it's a free country that values personal choice as the highest virtue.  Go do what you want and live with the consequences.

I believe you apologized later for not waiting to respond, however, this kind of response to someone who is in great emotional pain and turmoil already, is lacking in compassion and understanding (something Christ was remarkably adept at.)  "Go do what you want and live with the consequences."  How compassionate, how assembly.    Yes, I know you repudiate all that smacks of the assembly, but perhaps with having been out for 14 years, having resolved many of the issues for yourself, you have forgotten what it feels like to have someone treat you in such a cavalier fashion, placing a "guilt trip" on them - "live with the consequences."  Yes, what you say is true.  They will have to live with the consequences.  But please, this is not the way Christ treats us when we are grappling with such a heavy duty subject.

Does this clarify?

[Peacefulg]

Can someone just post the rules on when, how, what, where, and to whom you can post/reply too?  

[Kimberley Tobin]

Can someone just post the rules on when, how, what, where, and to whom you can post/reply too?  

Are you serious or are you just being funny?

[Peacefulg]

Had not seen your post as both of ours post were within minutes of each other, but no I was not being funny.

But now that I have read it, how is your last post any diffenent than what you accuse Dave of doing.  He had already apolgized as you pointed out, yet you continue to throw his statements back in his face.  My question is would Christ do that?

Dave, forgive me if you or others in your situation do not want to be defended, but I have seen too many bulletin boards lose good posters becasue a person(s) does not like thier way of responding.  We are body of Christ and some memebers are more forward than others, no need to cut them out like they are a cancer.

Cheers,
G

[Nancy Newswander]

KimberLEY,

Was Christ "given permission" or "invited" before He spoke about personal issues with people?  Sometimes, yes.  Other times, His interjections and judgements were not asked for.  Why?  'Cause He cared!  

There are times, when its OK to give, as you put it, uninvited advice and input.  Yes, there needs to be discernment and wisdom.  But, if you care for that person, you will, at some point, choose to get involved, even if, at that particular moment, your intervention appears to be "uninvited".

You are making blanket statements - sort of a rebound from the negative stuff we all encountered in the assembly - when in reality, each situation is unique and involves complex (and at the same time) needy people.

[M2]

Had not seen your post as both of ours post were within minutes of each other, but no I was not being funny.

But now that I have read it, how is your last post any diffenent than what you accuse Dave of doing.  He had already apolgized as you pointed out, yet you continue to throw his statements back in his face.  My question is would Christ do that?

Dave, forgive me if you or others in your situation do not want to be defended, but I have seen too many bulletin boards lose good posters becasue a person(s) does not like thier way of responding.  We are body of Christ and some memebers are more forward than others, no need to cut them out like they are a cancer.

Cheers,
G

This reminds me of the ancient Chinese proverb:

If one sticks one's neck out, it is bound to get chopped off at some point or another.

Marcia

[Peacefulg]

Hmm Peking George!  Is that with duck sauce done is a light sesame oil, or is it in Hosin with peanut oil?  

BTW; could I get a sharp blade for the cutting (i.e., a nice Highlander sword), and not one of those dull French guillotine blades where they had to drop they thing 5 plus times.  

Cheers,
The Headless poster!