Overcoming and Reckoning Faith

[outdeep]

(I moved this from another thread as I think it is a new subject that is worthy of discussion)

I would be interested in people's thoughts and comments on the idea of "reckoning faith":

When I read Romans 6, I always think of an analogy that I got, I believe, from John Stott in his book “Men Made New”.  

Twenty years ago, there would have been no problems with me dating any woman willing to go out with me (Assembly rules aside).  In fact, assuming that I was acting with respect (and was able to meet these women) I could have gone to dinner three different times in a week with three different women I was trying to get to know.

Today, if I were to date, it would be a major scandal.  Why?  Because I am married now!

I behaved in a certain way when I was single.  However, on my wedding day, I became something I never was before – a married man.  Because I am something different, it is only reasonable to believe that I would act according to what I am.  If, as a man married for 16 years, I told my wife not to wait up because I am taking this sweet young girl I met to the movies, the anger and outrage would be rightfully expressed to me in no uncertain terms.  

This is Paul’s essential argument in Romans 6.  People were criticizing his gospel because they thought that “too much forgiveness and grace” would actually motivate Christians to sin.  Paul replied that they misunderstand the very nature of the gospel.  If Christ is our representative substitute on the cross, then we are associated with his death and resurrection.  Or, put another way, we became something that we no longer were before – a Christian justified and glorified in God’s eyes.  If I am such a being, it is as inconceivable for me to go out and “sin so I can get forgiven” as it is for me to start dating other women at this point in my marriage.  We don’t take these thoughts seriously because of what we have become.

Reckoning faith is not a special kind of faith, but simply walking with the perspective that the gospel truth is really true.  Here in the South, we would say, “Yup, I’m saved, I reckon.”   (Sorry, I had to throw that in).  In other parts of the country it may sound like the drug addict who said after he became a Christian, “Jesus don’t need no drugs,” as he threw them in the trash or the man who drives by the bar on the way home and says “what would I as a Christian do in there?”

Unfortunately, in the Assembly the idea of “reckoning faith” became something more than simply acknowledging the truth of the gospel.  

First it became a technique – almost a mantra from Harry Potter’s wand - to overcome besetting sins.  Unfortunately, this didn’t always seem to work.  How many times has someone said something to you that makes your blood boil?  Do we, in that moment, just say “I reckon this dead” and the anger goes away?  The only way I know how to deal with this is to go outside, take a thirty-minute walk until I begin to cool down and can look at the situation with a cooler head.

If you ever met a man trapped in sexual addition, you soon learn that you can’t simply say “what you are doing is sin” (he knows that) or “well, just reckon it dead” (he can’t that’s why he needs help).  I suppose you can blame him for not believing hard enough until he is filled with such despair that he leaves you alone.  Or you can surround him with “accountability partners” 24/7 to keep him from acting out on his compulsive thoughts.  Or you can try and cast out his demons.  Or you can get someone trained to help him discover why he is angry or feels afraid or feels inadequate so he can begin to understand why he has such a hard time embracing the gospel emotionally.  I think this man’s sins can be overcome, but it is not a single sentence solution.
 
Second, there seemed to be an aspect to the practical application of reckoning faith that denies the very essence of person and personality.  Betty would tell us the story that if we were truly a dead corpse, someone could come and pull our hair and we would not respond.  This is true.  If I had no feelings, no emotions, no aspirations, and no cognitive thought, I wouldn’t care if someone took a blowtorch to my leg.

The problem is that I do have feelings, emotions, aspirations, and cognitive thought.  And I would care very much if someone came up and pulled my hair.  Do I really believe that reckoning on my identity with Christ is supposed to reverse that?

I have never found this “reckoning faith” as an overcomer technique helpful.  If I fall into besetting sin, I resolve to actively reckon myself dead to the sin.  When I fall again, I hear about how I can’t reckon in the flesh, but let God do it.  So I try to “let go, let God” but fall again.  I am told that I can’t be passive, but I must actively “reckon myself dead”.  So, I am brought full circle.  Again, I am not saying that these difficult sins can’t be faced.  If we are Christians, they must be faced.  I am saying that they are not overcome through quick techniques and glib answers.

Am I saying that Paul in Romans 6 is out to lunch?  No, may it never be.  I think it is a very sound argument for the truth of the gospel and it does well for us to think, “I want to behave in a way that is in keeping with the gospel by which I am redeemed.”  But, to extend it to a “How to overcome all besetting sins in your life by denying your very essence” – to be honest, I haven’t found that this works very well.

[editor]

Dear Dave, Affirming, Al, Mark, Tom, etc.

 :)This is the kind of topic that makes me want to start posting again.

In my opinion, this "Deeper Life," teaching is exactly what George twisted into the very links of the chain that bound us.  

First of all, our Christian life should be a simple life, "The simplicity that is in Christ."  Basically, when discussing this simplicity, the Apostle uses the idea of betrothal.  

2 Cor 11:1-511:1  Oh, that you would bear with me in a little folly--and indeed you do bear with me.  2  For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present [you] [as] a chaste virgin to Christ.  3  But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.  4  For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or [if] you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted--you may well put up with it!  5  For I consider that I am not at all inferior to the most eminent apostles.

Everything was going fine for the people Paul was talking to, until their minds were corrupted by false teaching about Jesus and the gospel, which are the same thing.  The people who taught this were, "eminent apostles," but they were FALSE!

Deeper life is normal Christian life.  (please don't tell me to read Watchman Nee  )How much "deeper" can you be than when you are with Jesus?  Seriously, what more do you want?  If we are in His presence and He is pleased to comfort, correct, encourage and empower, what more is there?  We are accepted in The Beloved.  "Reckoning faith" will not make us more holy or more accepted, because we ARE accepted in Christ.

Overcoming Faith and Reckoning Faith, when taught properly, are detailed descriptions of what we already have in Christ.  The Cross of Christ accomplished the whole thing, from identification with our sins, death, burial, ressurection, etc.  Jesus didn't do this in order to give us a "chance" to do this for ourselves!  He did this to completely save us from God's wrath, judgement and displeasure, and to bring us into a relationship where we have all spiritual blessings in Christ.  We are accepted in the Beloved, it is not contingent on our "Deeper Life."  Again, do you really want to tell God,

"Lord, thank you for saving me, now I want more, I want to go deeper.  I am going to stop thinking about Jesus, and now I am going to focus on Overcoming Faith, and I am going to really search myself to make sure that "self" is not doing a bunch of stuff that you don't like.  Lord, I know that I am accepted in Christ, but I want to be EVEN MORE accepted.  At my church, they don't really emphasize the Cross. At best, they only preach the Gospel, and some of these people have just stopped at mere salvation!  They don't have any deep reality with You, Lord.  I don't want to be like these Christians, I want to be more pleasing to you, and to experience your Grace in a deeper way."

The person I described above, is me.  I also know that it is many of you who read this website.

Deeper Life teaching, while not heresy itself, is readily twisted into another gospel and another Jesus, where simplicity is lost, and a complex series of "identification truths,"  wheels and lines, and "spiritual revelation" grows up and chokes our love for Christ!

Deeper Life, as taught by George Geftakys, makes us keenly aware of ourselves, and our performance.  "Lord, Lord, we went on many outreaches for you!"

Simplicity that is in Christ is quite the opposite,  "Lord, when were you thirsty and we gave you to drink?"  The simple person who is motivated by love for Christ is not aware of their service.  It comes naturally and is without the pretense and introspection that accompanies Deeper Life stuff.

I have made some generalizations above, and I meant to.  I did write a book about this:  go to the main website and look under "Reading."  

I have never met a person who is into the mystics and "Deeper Life," who isn't gloomy and morose.  They always tell you they are "rejoicing" or "learning the secret of suffering," etc.  but when I look at them, I always recoil.  I have only met around 6 or 7 hundred people who I would consider "Deeper Life" proponents, so there may be some out there who really do have joy. I just haven't met em!  Also, many of the people I am describing are NOT assembly folks.

More later:

Brent

[editor]

Hello everyone!

This is somewhat connected with the last post.  I read somewhere on this BB the idea that when we study the Bible, our minds must be under control of the(our?) Spirit.

Again, I see something totally different here.  I have been saved.  The Lord didn't only save a little piece of me, and then leave the other unsaved parts up to me!  

When I read the Bible, I try to use every ounce of brain power I posses, in order to understand what it says!  What is really interesting is that God didn't teach me how to read.  Mrs. Burke, in room 3 of Valley View elementary school did. I don't know if she was a Christian, but I know I wasn't!

So I am using the "Natural Man, and Natural Intellect," in order to read the Bible!  I still look at the words and assign meaning to them after the flesh!  Yikes,  when I read Cruising World, I use the same faculty that I use when I read the book of Romans.

I am not the least bit worried that I haven't flipped the "spirit" switch when I read the Bible.  In fact, I don't stress at all about it, because Jesus is able to speak to me through HIS Word!  My mind is not a problem for Him, because He was able to save when I was lost, and His enemy.  How much more now that I have been washed and cleansed, and I want to hear from Him is He able to speak to me?

Jesus also promises that He will renew our minds.  Why should I get all introspective about soul being subject to spirit, etc.?

It boils down to this:

I love Him, because He FIRST loved me.  I respond to Him, because I love Him.  He loved me BEFORE I read Watchman Nee!  

Grace gains a willing heart.  Love for Christ, it's simple.  A sense of obligation over a price we can never repay....it's deadly.

Brent

[Margaret]

Dave, thank you for starting this thread.  What you have said really clarifies the issue and puts it in a nutshell. Looking back, I think that "reckoning faith" seemed to work to a certain extent in the assembly because there were so many external sanctions in place to squeeze your behavior into conformity.  If you were squeezed hard enough you might even stop having certain thoughts and feelings (at least not consciously).  Now I have found that the more I come to understand and believe the scope and depth of the love of God in His incarnation, death and resurrection, the more my life is changed from the inside out.

[BenJapheth]

Brent, I totally agree.  I want Jesus cause I want Him - and I want Him cause He wanted me first.  I don't want Him cause others say I SHOULD want Him and therefore I muster the appropriate resolve because if I don't there's a downside.

Jesus is the Reward!....If you don't want Jesus, you won't appreciate the overcomers rewards, cause they're all about proximity and intimacy to Him.

Paul forsook all that he might get hold of the reason Jesus got hold of him - That was intimacy, friends...It's a big romance, people!  

God makes man, God loses man, God gets man.

It's very lovey-dovey, mushy stuff.  All of Christianity is about intimacy with God.  There won't be any chores in heaven...Nor, is there here as we walk in His life and love.  We walk in His loving rest.

The biggy doctrine starts and ends with love....obligations and abuse are the opposite end of love.  Love is freely chosen so it argues against obligation.

We're under the law of love...Yes, anything else is DEADLY.

I do admit I am "greedy" for rewards...I am desirous of my Beloved.  I want Him close.  I want to be close.  I don't want any risk of distance... I want to hear, "Well done!"  I want to be on His throne!  Why?  So, he can easily put His arm around me!  Why, do I want to be a pillar in the temple of God?  Cause I want the best view of his comings and goings...Intimacy!  Proximity!  I want it.

Hey, it's by grace, through grace, and in grace...He in me returns to Himself that He may be All and in All.

The first word and the last Word on our Savior is Love.  

Anything that's something without love is nothing.

I love Him, because He FIRST loved me.  I respond to Him, because I love Him.  He loved me BEFORE I read Watchman Nee!  

Grace gains a willing heart.  Love for Christ, it's simple.  A sense of obligation over a price we can never repay....it's deadly.

Brent

[Oscar]

One of the problems I have always had with the "reckoning faith" idea is the question, "What is it"?

Faith is the reception of what God has revealed, and the excercise of will to walk in that light when it becomes difficult to do so because of inner or outer circumstances.

So why is the adjective "reckoning" added to faith.  Does Joe have faith, but not "reckoning" faith?  Does he have faith, but not "overcoming" faith?  I think there is a little confusion here.

If one means by reckoning faith the determination to believe God's revelation in the scriptures RIGHT NOW at this moment in time, in the midst of inner or outer difficulty, ok.

 But the idea that there is "mere" faith and only the special, or advanced saints achieve the higher forms such as "reckoning" faith or "overcoming" faith is very questionable.

I usually ask, when presented with "deeper life" teaching like this, "where does the Bible specifically teach that".

If no answer is forthcoming, or worse, if the answer is, "when you have a deeper experience of God you will see", I usually get off the bus.

Tom

[Mark C.]

Hi Everyone!
   I'm with Brent!  This is a great topic and one that I really need to understand better.  Brent, I was really helped by reading your book on "deeper life".
   Dave, thanks for giving me that Stott book on Romans that talks about the issue we are discussing here.  In the book he teaches that Rom. 6 is really talking about justification and not sanctification.  He points out that the last verse concludes the discussion with the phrase, "but the giftof God----."  We need to recognize that we have a gift based relationship with God and repudiate a merit relationship for there to befruit in our lives.
   Tom, I agree that the GG version of "reckoning faith" changes Paul's meaning into a kind of work, or mantra that attempts to actualize the grace of God in a believers life.  To pursue a life of "tricky inner doings" of wheel's and line's, et al, to some how condition the inner man to assimilate the Spirit of God is the opposite of faith!
  Margaret, Steve gave me a great book that he has quoted in some of his writing called, "A Theology Of The Holy Spirit" by Bruner.  This book deals with understanding how the Holy Spirit works in the life of a believer and ably refutes GG's merit theology.  It would be great to hear him weigh in with his thoughts on this thread.  Thanks again Steve, for all the help you were to me.    
                 I reckon it's time to say, God Bless!  Mark

[4Him]

This is my feeble attempt to contribute to this discussion.  If it does, great.  If not, someone please straighten me out.

Reckoning faith?   While under GG's tutelage, I was very intimidated and confused by that term "reckoning faith" but now it seems that it is simply a call into the grace of God and the faith of Jesus (Ro 3:22; Gal 2:16,20; 3:22; Rev 14:12).

Maybe the term should be "faith reckoning".  From what I gather about the Greek word, that's sometimes rendered "reckon" and elsewhere, count, think, reason, etc., it speaks of a mindset, an activity of thought.  (Something maybe I/we didn't do much of in my/our GA days.)  God wants our thinking to be controlled by grace (Ro 4:3,4,11), which comes from God.  How?  Well, it's through faith.  Or, faith's way of thinking.  He's done what's needed to gain our minds.

Overcoming faith?   To overcome, or conquer, is more of a outward, physical action.  It is the natural outgrowth of the mind of faith.  Overcoming is not what I do or have done, but what He has done.  We are "overcomers" when we have the mind of God, the faith of Jesus.  How?  By grace!  Now, he overcame for us, through the cross and by His resurrection.  He's done it all!  So, if He is in my life, by His grace, I am overcoming.

1 Jn 5:4-5 - For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.  Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Praise God, I'm free.

At least, that's how I see it.  

[Mark C.]

Hi Tim!
  I think your understanding is correct.  There were many things we were taught that came right out of the Bible, but there was a subtle shift in the definitions of the words that were the fly in the ointment.
 "Reckon", and "faith" are Biblical terms and so GG claimed his view was bible based.  As you point out, "reckon" is about thought not the excercise of our commitment.  By GG's teaching on reckoning we were to "lay hold", or to excercise our wills to "claim the victory."  In his Assembly speak the victory was given by grace, but we had to "make the victory ours" to overcome.
   This above teaching would give the believer grace, but would hold it just high enough above their heads where they could never reach it.  After 20 years of jumping to try and reach the proffered carrot I discovered the same joy you mentioned that I already have the gift of overcoming!
   Thanks be to God for our full salvation in Christ!   Mark