KKK and Christianity

[David Mauldin]

   Recently a jury convicted Ray Killen for the deaths of three civil rights workers, James E. Chaney, Andrew Goodman and Michael H. Shwerner. Ray Killen, an admitted leader of the KKK, was charged with ordering the murders after the three civil rights workers were investigating the burning of a black church in Mississippi during 1964. The martyrs became a central rallying cry in the civil rights movement and lead to the end of segregation in the south.  Yet what I find most chilling about this story is the fact that Mr. Killen is himself a baptist minister.  Why? Why do so many white supremacist find Christianity a haven for their cause?  I personally see some contradictions in the teachings of Christ and The White Supremacy Movement. The gospels show us that the real issues were between those who want to maintain their traditions and prevent changes that would take away their power and control. Despite the contradictions, the "Bible Belt" (White) churches have a very poor history when it comes to addressing these issues. Even the patriarch of the Southern Baptist Church Billy Graham was curiously absent at the civil rights marches that took place in the 1960's (I will give him credit for taking a stand in south africa in the 1980's) Why?  Why when the church is suppose to uphold the standards of righteousness did it find itself so horribly in denial?  Why were churches such as "Koinania Fellowship" A group of Christians who advocated multiracial congregations branded "Leftist" "Radicals" "Trouble Makers!"  Today many mainstream christian churches will identify themselves as supporters of the civil rights movement yet the truth is found in a book I would like to recomend. "Black Like Me"  Written by a Christian John Howard Griffin. John acctually colored his skin to look black and documented the way people treated him while he hitchhiked through the south.  He became an anngel of the Lord in disguise!  So I ask you why/how could this be?  Does it still go on today?  Are you racist?

[Joe Sperling]

David----

A lot of people put themselves under the umbrella of "Christianity" from the right and
from the left--from racists to complete socialists. Jim Jones was a "minister" of Christianity
(though it turned out a very warped form), and the majority of his church was black. He
advocated total integration of races, love for all, and tried to reach out to the poor and
hungry for a while.

He became a full blown leftist/socialist with a megolamaniacal personality. He finally led over
900 people(mostly blacks) to their deaths through suicide. Jim Jones' socialistic teaching was
also a form of racism--it taught they could not make it on their own, and they needed a "leader"
to do so. To this day this teaching still exists, with many blacks feeling they cannot do it on
their own as individuals, but needing a leader like Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton to lead the cause.
(curiously, bith Jesse Jackson and Al Shrapton are ministers too).

--Joe

[Oscar]

Dave,

You said:

Even the patriarch of the Southern Baptist Church Billy Graham was curiously absent at the civil rights marches that took place in the 1960's (I will give him credit for taking a stand in south africa in the 1980's) Why?  Why when the church is suppose to uphold the standards of righteousness did it find itself so horribly in denial?

Billy Graham did not participate in the marches in the 1960's because he saw his mission as saving souls, not politics.

However, he had already dealt with the issue.  In 1952 he told the Southern Baptist Convention that Baptists colleges should accept all academically qualified black students.  He told them it was a moral issue that they could only ignore at their peril.

In 1953 he instituted integrated seating at his crusade in Chattanooga, Tennessee.  This was a year before the Supreme Court ruled on school segregation.

Get the facts straight Dave.

Thomas Maddux

[summer007]

David, Maybe Killen just like you thought he was a Christian when he obtained his Baptist mInister title anyone can do that, would if you'd of recieved a certificate from the school room of the Believer from GG himself and discovered you did'nt believe at all it does say in scripture" all men have not the faith". But at any rate Killen probibly had a Father and Grandfather who owned slaves as chattel when it was legal to buy and sell them on the open market, after the civil war many of these ignorant white supremists never got over it. But this story was all over the news and Mississipi is well integrated now. In L.A. everything is socio/economic iif you can pay for it you can have it, and the african-americans are a protected class. I don't see what your so up in arms over? Especially the Iraqi war where we only average 2.4 casualties a day where as here with abortion they have what is it 4,000 a day or 4,000  a month in this country thats alot of people waliking around with fresh blood on their hands certainly alot more then the casualties in the war on terror. Oh well thank-God Kerry or Gore did'nt win in the elections we certainly would have exceeded casulties right here in our own back-yards, can you imagine then trying to scoomze the terrorists? Please with cells through-out this country and the world it's almost unbearable to think what could of happened had the President not taken Action! Summer.

[David Mauldin]

Its clear that I ruffled some feathers here!  People, racism is an ugly fact of our society! The Church is "the Light of the World" and "The Salt of the Earth." Yet, on the whole, the Church prior to the 60's, didn't concern itself with these issues only the "radical" "leftist" ones! Why?  Don't you see something contradicting itself here?  Are you willing to admit this?  Are you willing (as all of us should) that you to some degree are prejudice?  I will.  I see it in myself all  the time. An example in the shopping center where I live is a sidewalk fountain. It shoots up water that jumps-out intermittently. I live in the O.C. relative to southern California it is extremely white! and rich!  On any given hot Saturday afternoon you will find children (White) running through the water when a sign clearly says "No Running Through the Water!"  It doesn't  bother me. Even when I am trying to sit down and read a book or enjoy my lunch it doesn't bother me. Yet had they been Mexican kids they would have!  Why?  I am not sure I understand why but I know they would have. (Ya see they come into our country and they disrespect everything!)  Every year in my classroom we study the civil rights movement. I begin the-unit by cutting three pictures out of the newspaper. One picture is a white person, the next an asian and the last a black person. I photocopy them and direct the children to identify each one. "One is a teacher!"  "One is a spy and the last is a car thief" Does it surprise you that even my black students identify the black-man as the car thief!"  (It was really Eldon Cambell fromthe Clippers!) People- these are just 3rd graders!  We are all prejudice!  Admitting it is the beginning do overcoming it! Again I ask you Are you racist?  Have you read "Black Like Me?"  Summer I suspect that a 'Born Again" Christian can murder as easily as an "unsaved" one, The man who shot John Lennon was a "Born again" Chistian. He had worked with youth and had lead many to Christ. People. while I was living with the Elder of the Whitter Christian Church he demonstrated to me that he was a believer, yet he also used words like "nig&%* without thinking twice. It is possible to be a rasict and be a Christian. "Tom where did you get the info on Graham? Why did you say "get the facts straight" ?  I never said Billy Graham did't do these things!

[Jem]

You want to see racism? Check out Dave's Willy and Joe dialogue on the "Iraq, a good idea thread?" I think by it we can conclude that all Unitarians are bigots.

[outdeep]

Of course there has been blatant racism in the church.  Read some of Evangelical author Phillip Yancy’s work (such as his work on Grace and Soul Survival) and he will talk openly about the “almost cultic” Southern racist church of his youth where his pastor openly taught (as he mimicked from the pulpit a black waiter) that blacks were designed by God to be waiters and servants in that God gave them flexible hips.

You don’t have to go farther than the later works of Martin Luther to see bigotry – anti-Semitism that even his most sympathetic biographers have a difficult time spinning into a positive light, as one church historian I am reading wrote.

But does this shameful practice within Christendom invalidate the church as a whole?  Can it be extrapolated and generalized for all Christians (or as David Mauldin implies, all right-leaning Christians?)  Of course not.  Churches such as Brooklyn Tabernacle, Tony Evan’s church (a mix of white and black, good doctrine and social programs), and Promise Keepers are examples of strong attempts to stand against racism.

But, why does racism even pop up in the church?  And why do white supremacy folks find a home in “church”?

The reason is that the American church (starting after the Reformation and continuing through the Evangelical movement) has become very entrepreneurial in nature.  What this means, is that, unlike the Catholic or pre-Reformation church, there is no centralized control.  Moreover, there is nothing to prevent anyone who has a will and a way to start yet another church that carrys forth their personal culture and view.  (Our adventure with George certainly taught us that).   Could this be what Jesus was aluding to in the parable of the wheat in the tares - the kingdom of God being a mixture of children of light and darkness that will be sorted in the last judgement?

If you want to start a white supremacy church, there is really no one that is able to stop you.  Certainly, other churches can decry what you are doing.  They can choose not to fellowship with you.  But, they can’t close you down.  In fact you will probably get lots of press from the anti-church disgruntled folks who would love to portray you as the ultimate extension of typical and mainstream Christianity.

Many years ago in my town here in the South a church split over the issue of bring black children to VBS.  Today, that church has closed its doors.  I can’t think of any believer that I know in the major churches in the area who would exclude blacks or their children. 

So, I think this thread is another example of looking into some of the dark events of the church and holding it up as some sort of hideous example of mainstream Christianity that we believers are somehow in denial about.  That sediment is false.

[David Mauldin]

   Dave, good work bro! My spin is that the Church (established religious institution) is a preserver of tradition as well as moral standard. Yet what happens when the church/society itself comes to a realization that its standards are in contradiction to Gods will?  (See the gospels)  Then it must do some painful soul searching. it must admit that it was wrong!  (Very hard for people who have been morally superior towards "radicals" and "leftist!")  It must repent!  Not an unscripteral concept!  The truth is however that many in the Baptist church don't want to change!  They would rather keep their superior status and let life just go on as it has always been "Everyone minds their own business here in our little town!" I know all about this I was born in Albemarle not far from where you live now! Take for instance the fact that at one time the Southern Baptist Church justified slavery by using scripture. Genesis, "...the children of Ham shall serve...." Tom, Just can't figure out what you mean by 'get the facts straight!"  Dude where are they?  I have looked through Mr. Grahams own autobio and can't find a chapter, page, reference to his work in the civil rights movement. Dude I looked through a number of bio's on Martin Luther King and can't find one reference to Mr. Graham. Dude I looked through a number of works on the civil rights movement and can't find one reference to Mr. Graham. Tom where did you find this information?  I wonder why the A & E channel stated that Mr. Graham wasn't involved in the Civil rights movement?  Hellooo?  Tom? I find your comment "get the facts straight" typical of your glib attitude towards me and others. Don't you need to get over it?

[David Mauldin]

Jem, Bill Mauldin (My relative!  rumored!) created two characters who were G.I's during WWII. The guys Willy and Joe were in no way representing minorities! If you misunderstood this I apologize. I have tried to follow the characterization and spirit of Bill's cartoons.  Perhaps if you read his cartoons youz would understand!  I will try to find a link!


http://www.5ad.org/BillMauldin.htm

[outdeep]

   Dave, good work bro! My spin is that the Church (established religious institution) is a preserver of tradition as well as moral standard. Yet what happens when the church/society itself comes to a realization that its standards are in contradiction to Gods will?  (See the gospels)  Then it must do some painful soul searching. it must admit that it was wrong! 

I don't see a contradiction here.  I was explaining how corruption got into the church, not justifying the corruption.  Evangelicals think racism (especially racism in the church) is wrong.  We are in agreement on this point.

[Oscar]

  ...." Tom, Just can't figure out what you mean by 'get the facts straight!"  Dude where are they?  I have looked through Mr. Grahams own autobio and can't find a chapter, page, reference to his work in the civil rights movement. Dude I looked through a number of bio's on Martin Luther King and can't find one reference to Mr. Graham. Dude I looked through a number of works on the civil rights movement and can't find one reference to Mr. Graham. Tom where did you find this information?  I wonder why the A & E channel stated that Mr. Graham wasn't involved in the Civil rights movement?  Hellooo?  Tom? I find your comment "get the facts straight" typical of your glib attitude towards me and others. Don't you need to get over it?

A Prophet With Honor, by Martin.  Pages 168-172.

Thomas Maddux

[Oscar]

Dave,

You said:

  My spin is that the Church (established religious institution) is a preserver of tradition as well as moral standard. Yet what happens when the church/society itself comes to a realization that its standards are in contradiction to Gods will?  (See the gospels)  Then it must do some painful soul searching. it must admit that it was wrong!  (Very hard for people who have been morally superior towards "radicals" and "leftist!")  It must repent!  Not an unscripteral concept! 

Actually, repentance is the response to conviction of sin.

If you wish me to repent of my contempt for Leftists, you need to show my why it is wrong to condemn the propagators of the bloodiest ideas in human history.

The Left was born in the French Revolution and produced the bloodbath that followed.

Wherever they get into power they slaughter people.  The next successful outbreak was in Russia in 1917.  Other demonstrations of the fruit their beliefs produce can be found by reading about China, North Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, Cambodia, on and on.

Here in the USA they have never gained full power, but when they get their boys on the Supreme Court it is not hard to see how fast our freedom will disappear if they ever do get into power.

They haven't been able to start killing adults here yet.  But they are the people that maintain the 4000 per day slaughter of the innocents in abortion clinics.

Sorry Dave, I despise these guys and what they do.

Thomas Maddux, Unrepentant.

[outdeep]

Tom,

Actually, I don't think David's point is that we need to repent from a superior attitude towards leftists.  He is saying that the church should repent from racism (which I agree, as appropriate) which we cannot do because we have a proud attitude (which I don't agree) and are in denial about racism (which is nonsense).

The truth is, there has been serious racism in the name of the church especially in the South in the 1960's.  There has also been serious attempts to address this and you would have to look pretty hard to find an Evangelical church today where they excluded blacks, let alone wanted to string them up or make them wash dishes for the white folk's potlucks.

Further, his subpoint is that Billy Graham is a racist because he wasn't there at the civil rights march (in spite of the many bold stands he took for integration in the history of his ministry.  This manipulative point (where he establishes an arbitrary criteria and then judges someone because he doesn't follow this criteria) is along the same lines as his other post where folks cannot have an opinion favorable towards the war unless they personally enlist.

Instead of trying to pidgeon-hole the church as a racist organization, folks should read Phillip Yancy's book What is so amazing about grace which deals in depth about his experience growing up in a racist Southern church.  His book Soul Survivor describes his journey of how greater minds than his (Martin Luther King, Ghandi, G.K. Chesterton, Fyodor Dostoyevsky, C. Everet Koop helped him think through his "cultic" church experience and come out the other end with his faith in Christ still intact.

-Dave

[David Mauldin]

I was wrong!!!! Tom I owe you an apology! I was wrong You were right!!!  I stand corrected!  (A few years ago I gave some Bretheren an A&E Biography video on the life of Billy. They were not happy!  Apparently he has become to liberal for their taste! (He said that Catholics were Christians too!)  How about you??? 


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