Can anyone really ever get beyond "their issues?"

[David Mauldin]

Before I became a Christian I used illegal drugs, smoked ciggarettes (a pack+ a day) drank liquor and was very irresponsible when it came to school, work, home. But after I became a Christian these things changed dramatically. Many people would comment and testify to the change that took place in my life. These results had a tremendous optomistic effect upon my psyche. The future seemed limitless. I could become anything I (God) wanted, acomplish anything I (God) wanted me to do. Yet as experience is apt to show us I learned that things were not so easy. Life was not a simple as I thought. I couldn't just say a prayer and it was all taken care of. Issues became evident in my life that seem to be impossible to overcome. One obvious realization was that I could't do anything simply based on faith. Living among other christians it was easy to see that other Christians had their impossible issues also. Some peoples issues I found to be embedded inside their own selves, what I mean by this is that a person may have a very quirky, rude personality.   Yet there was little hope that this person would ever change simply because it was the person themselves! (Does this make sense?) One day I can remember very clearly I overheard a conversation between a daughter and her mother. The daughter was having a problem with her teacher at Cornerstone. The mother encouraged her to "ask God to show her (the teacher) her need to change!. The child's response was all to real. "But it would take the Lord her whole life to show her!" Which seems to confirm my suspicions. Although we can keep ouselves from doing certain things, like drugs etc...We can put the Minitor inside a maze thus keeping him under a certain amount of control yet I don't think we can ever get over our issues!  I can put a nice suit on, get an education yet inside I am still embeded with issues! I think human nature is what it is! What do you think?

[summer007]

David, I don't know if this is the right thread for this but I wanted to add...If you were a Tibetian Monk, and you came here with the common ground of the assembly that's ok. But it seems you use the unsaved, no longer a believer thing as a shock factor, and your sooo worried you were innocently pulled into an offensive post session. Yet you really don't give a D@#%, if you stumble that same person, who is so weak with your un-belief...What's really going on? Cause your contradicting yourself!  Summer

[David Mauldin]

I'm just talking about human nature. I didn't think my post would stumble anyone out of their faith. Many Christians do not believe that perfection can be achieved in this life. Do you?  I don't. I think it is unrealistic to believe others can really change!  I hope this doesn't offend you? My point was that we should accept people despite their faults.  My ex-fiance' is on disability. It ruined our relationship. I found out that she couldn't just change when I spelled everything out so clearly, she (we all) has issues that are beyond are ability to just seperate apart from ourselves. I've stopped trying to change her and have learned to just accept her for who she is. Yes she is working the system but she is doing the best she can! 

[vernecarty]

Before I became a Christian ...

If you do not mind my asking David, what were the circumstances of your becoming a Christian?
I am genuinely interested and not trying to pry or be presumptuous...

I was saved when I was about seven.
My mother told me that she would soon be gone and I would be alone in the world.
I will never forget the absolute terror that over-took my soul and the incredible sense of loneliness at the prospect of loosing her. I know it was fear, but God used it in a remarkable way.

The verse came to mind : "I will never leave Thee nor forsake Thee"

I had heard the gospel many times before. I gave my heart to Christ that night.
There have been periods of sad wandering without a doubt, but I have never ever doubted the truth of that awesome promise...

I don't. I think it is unrealistic to believe others can really change!

I am interested in how you reconcile this with the fact that you yourself apparently changed quite a bit after" becoming a Christian"?

Verne

[summer007]

David, You know this..think romans 8:3 "What the Law could'nt do," etc...you were under the law in the assm, following the laws of Assm. We all have weak areas being human." But we shall all be changed in a moment in a twinkling of an eye"> Its Grace right now, you have all the answers. Its those rivers of living water, the washing of the word, the kingdom is with-in you. Think Christ himself, yes he can change anyone, we still have some quirky traits though. Don't ya want to walk on those streets of gold? Summer. p.s. I'm going on a long break!

[David Mauldin]

Vern,
       I followed up my statement with the Minitor illustration. See greek mythology. The minitor was a beast that couldn't be defeated but controled! I was saved when I was 16. It did save me!  But I came to a point where I could no longer believe.  Belief can do wonders for a person. recently I watched a program on 6o minutes where a group of primitive people were saved because they believed that the "Spirit god" of the ocean was  angry and wanted to swallow them.  They saw the receiding waters and new it was time to run for the hills! You and I know there is no spirit god but their belief saved them. This is how I view my salvation. It worked for a while but as the song goes, "There more you know the less you believe" I understand you stillbelieve there is no need for you to defend your faith to me. I accept you. It's o.k. and I reserve the right to be wrong. Summer I hope you aren't offended. Please don't leave because of me.

[vernecarty]

Vern,...16. It did save me!  But I came to a point where I could no longer believe.

I was interested in asking becasue I believe salavation is a free gift, and it is irrevocable.
If you confessed Jesus Christ as Lord, and at some point believed in your heart that God raised Him ffom the dead, then God saved you in accordance with His promise, regardless of your present feelings.
I have no idea how to reconcile the faithfulness of God with securing the destiny of those He really saves, with a position that calls His very existence into question. Just trying to  understand...
Verne

p.s The minotaur was quite an interesting creature. I will read the post again and see if I can make the connection.
It is possible for the Christian to be transformed, deep-seated weaknesses and tendencies notwithstanding. I believe holiness involves more that keeping our worse inclinations at bay...

[David Mauldin]

funny I found different spelling for the minotaur. I learned about the illustration by reading Joseph Campbell. ( I have read different versions about the half man half bull, In one story he was defeated!)
He is the problem of King Mines?  The same guy who messed with Icarus and father.

[editor]

funny I found different spelling for the minotaur. I learned about the illustration by reading Joseph Campbell. ( I have read different versions about the half man half bull, In one story he was defeated!)
He is the problem of King Mines?  The same guy who messed with Icarus and father.

the Minotaur guarded the maze under the palace of Knossos, on Crete.  King Minos was one of the more famous kings there.  I've been there.  It's the oldest European civilization.

If I'm not mistaken, Perseus defeated the minotaur.  Daedelus and Icarus were prisoners of Minos, and they were the ones who made the wings, but Alas, Icarus flew too near the sun....

Greek myths are awesome.

Brent

[vernecarty]

There is something critically important about the issues that you are raising, and that is how much more important it is to live the gospel than to just preach it.
I am not suggesting that the failure of Christians to adorn the doctrine in any way lessens the truth of the gospel. The interesting thing is that we are the only ones who know whether we have really changed or not...I think this is a good reason to examine ourselves as the Bible admonishes...
Verne

[editor]

Vern,
       I followed up my statement with the Minitor illustration. See greek mythology. The minitor was a beast that couldn't be defeated but controled! I was saved when I was 16. It did save me!  But I came to a point where I could no longer believe.  Belief can do wonders for a person. recently I watched a program on 6o minutes where a group of primitive people were saved because they believed that the "Spirit god" of the ocean was  angry and wanted to swallow them.  They saw the receiding waters and new it was time to run for the hills! You and I know there is no spirit god but their belief saved them. This is how I view my salvation. It worked for a while but as the song goes, "There more you know the less you believe" I understand you stillbelieve there is no need for you to defend your faith to me. I accept you. It's o.k. and I reserve the right to be wrong. Summer I hope you aren't offended. Please don't leave because of me.

I have changed since becoming a Christian.  No doubt about it. 

I also am nowhere near perfect, and have many of the same personality traits that i had prior to salvation.  There are some differences:

I don't practice the works of the flesh.  Am I perfect in every aspect of this?  No, but there I some I just don't ever do, others I rarely even think about, and only one or two that I have a problem with from time to time.  Prior to becoming a Christian, it was different.

I don't blab on about the bible as much as I used to, and I don't think every other christian is untaught and a baby brother.  That's change.

I will still be a person who needs grace, until I die.  Grace, because I'm not righteous.

[summer007]

David, No I'm not leaving because of you. I have other things to work on right now. It is typical for everyone to want to convert you, you know you were in leadership. You some good topics and really are one of the nicest people here at least your HONEST! I've had to critically look at my beliefs, being raised Hell-Fire and brimstone Baptist, so we all have things we need to Rise Above. Sometimes this place is very draining, but I'm sure you know that.   Summer.

[vernecarty]

I have changed since becoming a Christian.  No doubt about it. 

This was indeed the single most obvious fact, that convinced me of my own salvation - some changes genuinely surprised me...
Verne

[David Mauldin]

I think it was Daedelus who built the maze??  Minos couldn't defeat him so he just put him in the maze. I think it illustrates how we can control our addictions through structure.  Organizations such as A.A. etc...  but you are right a hero did come and defeat him! A forshadow of Christ??

[summer007]

Verne, I meant to say your conversion story at age 7 is very precious. Thank-You for sharing. Summer.