Praying out loud

[d3z]

I think this is somewhat related to assemblyspeak, but I'm going to open it in its own thread.

Last weekend, before worship, the worship leader asked me to pray for the time (just amongst the worship team).  I got nervous, and all that came out was a bunch of assembly-sounding phrases.

I really enjoy listening to their natural, from the heart prayers, and long for when I am again able to do the same.  In the assembly, we thought our way of praying was somehow better.  Now, I realize it is very pharasaical.

Anyone else struggle with this?  I now feel awkward even when just praying over a meal with another person.

[Mark Kisla]

I think this is somewhat related to assemblyspeak, but I'm going to open it in its own thread.

Last weekend, before worship, the worship leader asked me to pray for the time (just amongst the worship team).  I got nervous, and all that came out was a bunch of assembly-sounding phrases.

I really enjoy listening to their natural, from the heart prayers, and long for when I am again able to do the same.  In the assembly, we thought our way of praying was somehow better.  Now, I realize it is very pharasaical.

Anyone else struggle with this?  I now feel awkward even when just praying over a meal with another person.

I struggled with this too, reading and thinking about Luke 11: 1-13 helped me.  My needs are simple, my prayer is simple. When things are more complicated, my prayers are still simple. What a relief and source of joy when God answers my simple prayers.
Margaret Irons wrote an insightful additional comment to Steves article about the "Cycle of Devotion in Assembly Reflections. I liked it because it examines how Jesus taught his disciples to pray when they asked how.

[Arthur]

I used to enjoy the high-energy assembly prayer meetings.  They weren't boring like I had known prayer meetings to be in other churches.  It was almost like a combination of a poetry reading and a spiritual WWF wrestling match.  It was like an intellectual challenge to see how well we could state what we felt.  What verses could we tie into it.  What mighty voice and emphasis could we use.  But I don't want to trivialize it too much because I know that most of the time I meant it from my heart and so did others.  

But now after leaving the assembly, David I totally know what you mean.  It's like all the air has gone out of the balloon.  For the first couple of years after leaving, I felt very embarrased to pray out loud in front of anyone.  Even now about the only thing I feel comfortable with is a brief prayer over dinner.  I think the reason for my sudden shyness was that their was a crisis of faith in my life.  Everything that I thought I had so strongly believed in seemed to come crashing down.  I believed that God was able to do anything, but he didn't save me from Fullerton, so I was having some serious doubts--about men, God, and myself.

There's still something I admire about those prayers then--the sincere ones and not the fake ones, that is.  It makes sense that if our God is so great and we are his children, then why not boldly ask him for what we want?  What is there to be ashamed of?  You see, up until the assembly, most of the Christians I had known didn't talk about their faith much.  It was like they were ashamed to be Christians.  That didn't make much sense to me.  I was glad to find believers who were unashamed to declare it loudly and clearly, not only in witnessing to others on the street, but also in their prayers.
On the other hand, of course it shouldn't be a show and there is something to be said for humility in prayer as well.  


Arthur

[al Hartman]

   This thread is a wonderful idea!  It is obvious from the first three posts that this area needs discussion and clarification.  I certainly identify with what the others have said here before me.

     A small group had been gathering for prayer and fellowship in the San Fernando Valley for quite a while before George ever appeared among us.  Our prayers were simple and to the point.  We were largely ignorant, but fundamentally honest.  There was no pretense in our prayers that I recall.
     Then George came in and began to teach.  And pray.  And everything began to change.  George's praying was elegant, and full of scripture quotation, and impressive.
     One of us was a young man of about 18 from Glendale.  He was a jolly, intelligent, good-natured fellow, who generally expressed himself simply and clearly, as one might expect of any well behaved person his age.  Then he experienced George and began to model his style of praying after the eloquence of the great man.
     One time after the brother in question had left for home, George stated to some of us, "Have you heard that young man pray?"  He was obviously impressed.
     We assured George that the prayers he was hearing were completely out of character with the rest of this brother's conduct and conversation, and were merely auditions for George's attention.  But the man was impressed, and (as most are aware by now) his opinion was not to be debated.  The youngster had prayed his way into the master's good graces, and the rest of us were subjected to an intense lecture on why our prayers needed to sound more majestic.  Not too much time passed until most of us had begun to conform to the new standard of public (and for the majority, even private) prayer.


     Post-assembly, I spent twenty-some years wandering in spiritual wilderness, unaware that anything other than myself had been wrong with my Fullerton experience.  During that time I experienced doubts that ranged to the extreme of agnosticism.  I never stopped believing in God entirely, and although there were gaps of silence, I never gave up speaking to Him.  I did, however, drop the elegance and the majesty of my language.
     If I shall be judged, I reasoned, let it be for who I am and not for who I pretend to be.  And so I expressed it all toward God:  my anger, my doubts, my confusion, my wants and hopes, my weaknesses and shortcomings, those aspects of Him that I thought to be unfair... everything.  Through it all I have come to believe that God favors honesty far above form or formality.


     These days, I pray with my mind and from my heart.  I am not ashamed of my prayers, inadequate though they may be and lame as they may sound, because I am not ashamed of my Christ Who was not ashamed of me.
     I still find assemblyisms in my praying.  I always struggle a little when "Our gracious Heavenly Father..." emerges.  But He is gracious, He does abide in Heaven, and He is our Father, so the problem is not in the terminology, but in my emotional and mental perceptions of it.
     Thus, in my personal prayer life I pray for the cleansing of my mind and heart from all that may obstruct my public and personal praying.  I can't recall ever being instructed to ask God for help in asking God.  It just came about as the recognition of an honest need, and I address it as honestly as I can.


     The importance of public prayer is (at least) threefold:
1.  It testifies to all beholders of our faith in Jesus Christ and His faithfulness
     to us.
2.  It is an example to our families and to any who look up to us to see God at
     work.
3.  It enables us to stand together in our requests, according to His Word.


     This is an "al-ism:"  Anything that stands as an object to prayer, needs to be the object of prayer.


God bless us all,
al

[al Hartman]

     I feel obliged to point out that Eulaha began a thread on this same theme just over a month ago.  The approach was a little different, but the posts are valuable, and I recommend that anyone interested in this subject should read the other thread, Praying "Out Loud"

al  

[Arthur]

After leaving the assembly I've heard a lot of criticism for how we prayed and worshipped-- saying that it was for a show, etc.  But I've got to say that I never saw it that way while being there.  

I thought we were all sincere and meant our prayers.  The fact that we prayed with gusto just showed that we really believed what we were saying and were'nt going through some liturgy.  It wasn't something that we grudgingly had to do in front of church, nor was it a form prayer that a pastor leads the church through in monotone without much feeling.  This was different. This was exciting.  This was an opportunity for personal expression of our belief and dependence upon God in the saftey of an environment of friends who held the same beliefs.  

It just didn't make sense that any of us would pray to God in order to show off to people because that's exactly what prayer is not supposed to be. I figured that people wouldn't be so shallow.  Do any of you really think we all were?  Or were some? Or were just some some of the time?  How are we supposed to know.  Another thing I figured is that's between God and them.  It would be foolish for a peron to make a pretend prayer to God.  God sees everything in our hearts.

Arthur

[al Hartman]

It just didn't make sense that any of us would pray to God in order to show off to people because that's exactly what prayer is not supposed to be. I figured that people wouldn't be so shallow.  Do any of you really think we all were?  Or were some? Or were just some some of the time?  How are we supposed to know.  Another thing I figured is that's between God and them.  It would be foolish for a peron to make a pretend prayer to God.  God sees everything in our hearts.

Arthur

Arthur,

     I can only speak for myself on this matter.  I know that I was sincere in all my prayer, both private and public.  I believed that I was praying about the things God wanted me to pray about.
     But as a worker and an LB, I learned to phrase my public prayers in a manner that would not get me raked over the coals in some inner-circle meeting thereafter.  It happened.

al

[Mark C.]

Do any of you really think we all were?  Or were some? Or were just some some of the time?  How are we supposed to know.  Another thing I figured is that's between God and them.  It would be foolish for a peron to make a pretend prayer to God.  God sees everything in our hearts.

Arthur

  Hi Arthur  !

    I'm naturally very self conscious and very aware of my natural self centeredness.  Being this way I easily fall into wondering how others perceive me; whether good or bad.  My Eastern religion days reinforced this desire to conquer my ego and this actually has the reverse effect intended, which is to become even more a narcissist.
   The Assembly taught this same kind of thing in GG's teaching on the "cross."  I tried in my public Assembly prayers to lose myself by allowing my emotions to carry me away, but alas I always came back down to a place of self doubt and self loathing.
   This kind of prayer was not real, though I wanted it to be, because it came from the "overcomer" state I was able to work up, while attempting to escape who I really was.  This kind of prayer is somewhat like the Pharisee in the parable who "prayed with himself", from his false view of himself, and as Jesus noted, "he prayed with himself."
   Can you imagine a real prayer coming out from a leading bro. like myself at a worship meeting: "Lord, I want to just be honest with you and tell you that all my attempts at holiness only end in failure. I also am tired of being a phony and of trying to hide it from all your people here, etc."  This prayer was like the Publican's as sincerity in prayer can only come from honesty before God.
   It is still difficult for me to overcome my self consciousness, but I now realize it is not my duty to perfect my inner life.  We are naturally very self centered and very unloving of God or others, yet God loves us just the way we are.  
   All in all, it doesn't matter what the quality of my "inner state" is, and whether or not I feel sincere in my prayer, as a honest look inside will always betray the presence of our egos and disqualify us.  It is the quality of God's love for us, inspite of my terrible love of myself, that can bring forth pure motives.  Prayer comes from being very unsure of myself, but confident in what God's grace can do!  
  Yes, it was foolish to pretend to pray, but that's what comes of basing our relationship with God on the performance of an impossible standard of holiness that required us to not only have a perfect behavior and attitude, but also have a perfectly pure inner life!   We either continue to tell ourselves we are able to do this, or we are left with the unacceptable result that we are some how defective; unable to "lay hold" on eternal life.
   Thank you Lord for delivering me from the Assembly, and the terrible kind of bondage that was there, and I pray that you will help us all in our healing from this toxic faith.  Thank you for providing this BB, Lord, where we can hear the true voice of God in the Gospel of your grace.
                                       God Bless,  Mark C.
 

[Arthur]

   This kind of prayer was not real, though I wanted it to be, because it came from the "overcomer" state I was able to work up, while attempting to escape who I really was.  

Hi Mark  !

Who are we really?
I agree, there were not too many contrite, publican prayers there.  But it seems the Bible has both concepts.  If we look at the human side-ourselves, there's sin, death, misery, inability, etc.  But if we look on the bright side, at God, we see victory, resurrection, life, vitality, ability, power, strength, etc.  
If we focus on the latter, won't we be filled with joy and faith that God can do anything?
So many times we read about how we are strong in Christ.  Is that not who we really are?

All in all, it doesn't matter what the quality of my "inner state" is, and whether or not I feel sincere in my prayer, as a honest look inside will always betray the presence of our egos and disqualify us.  It is the quality of God's love for us, inspite of my terrible love of myself, that can bring forth pure motives.  Prayer comes from being very unsure of myself, but confident in what God's grace can do!  

Yeah, I think we're on the same page here. We're loosers, God's not.  So why not focus on the latter, shout it out and be happy if we really believe it?

"Overcoming" is not just an assembly idea--that's actually there in the Bible, right?
I mean are we fatalists?  Should we all go around moping all day saying, "I'm a sinner.  Yeah Christ saved me but I'm still going to sin and fail. Woe is me."?  That really is being preoccupied with self.

Oh man, it seems that we can go around in circles on this forever.  Certainly I have mulled it over and over and over in my mind and I have not yet found a resolution to the question:

Was what we were doing there in the assembly right or wrong?

Right:
We were simply following God and he was doing a wonderful work in our lives.

Wrong:
It was all a facade to satisfy our egos, and in the process we were objects of coercive persuasion and thought reform.

So which is it?

It seems what's really at issue is motive.
But I wonder even about that.  Was it pure motive or wasn't it?  Maybe I was just tricking myself into believing it was for good and noble purposes, but really it was just a means to pad my own ego?  But no, I was being obedient to God's Word.  No, it was pride. No it was...See Mark.  I still can't figure it out.

Why did I go to that first Bible Study?  Was it pride?  No.  Meeting Mrs. Right?  No.  Because I felt that I needed help in my spiritual life?  Yes.
Ok, why did I keep going to the meetings at first?  Pride? No.  Because I was glad to learn the Bible, especially the O.T. and the Lord was speaking to me?  Yes.
Why did I go out witnessing that first time?  Was it pride?  No.  Was it because I felt I had a message of truth and hope to share?  Yes.
Why did I pray out loud for the first time at a prayer meeting?  Was it pride?  Hmm...maybe.  Was it because I thought I should be an part of the gathering of believers?  Yes.  Was it because there were other new young brothers there and I wanted to show that I wasn't afraid of praying out loud and that I would be the first to do so?  Yes--and that's pride.
Why did I stay that first summer break instead of going home?  Was it because I thought that was what the Lord was leading me to do?  Yes.  Was it because I wanted to show how committed to the Lord I was, even more so that other students who went home? Yes.  Ah, pride again.

Hey this is helping.  In retrospect, I see that the seedlings of pride were growing up there right along my earnest and genuine spiritual growth.  
Well, in that case, I would say that I should be thankful to God that they were uprooted later, even if it was painful.  I'm just afraid that the good stuff was also.  But, maybe he will cause it to grow again without the pride.  If that is the case, then I would say that God is to be praised in the long run, though I did not see it at the time.

This is a fascinating study.  At the same time that my spirit was responding to God's word and growing, I bit-by-bit allowed myself to take on the prideful persona of the assembly with the excuse that it was spiritual and for God when really it was for my ego.  What a trip.

Arthur

[Mark C.]

Who are we really?

  Arthur!  You ask the best questions that seem to get right to the center of things that I've also struggled with.
   "Who are we really?" was a question from my generation that attempted to understand reality by looking inside.  God has placed eternity in our hearts and that search will only lead to incomplete answers and probably agnosticism regarding the question.
   
"Overcoming" is not just an assembly idea--that's actually there in the Bible, right?
I mean are we fatalists?  Should we all go around moping all day saying, "I'm a sinner.  Yeah Christ saved me but I'm still going to sin and fail. Woe is me."?  That really is being preoccupied with self.

Oh man, it seems that we can go around in circles on this forever.  Certainly I have mulled it over and over and over in my mind and I have not yet found a resolution to the question:

Was what we were doing there in the assembly right or wrong?

Right:
We were simply God and he was doing a wonderful work in our lives.

Wrong:
It was all a facade to satisfy our egos, and in the process we were objects of coercive persuasion and thought reform.

So which is it?

  It is both, IMHO.  As Christians we have the battle of Rom. 7 going on within, and the Assembly false holiness/cultic styled controls worked on our ever present old man.  In Galatians Paul says that those who as Christians follow performance theology will end up building up the flesh and quenching the Spirit.  

It seems what's really at issue is motive.
But I wonder even about that.  Was it pure motive or wasn't it?  Maybe I was just tricking myself into believing it was for good and noble purposes, but really it was just a means to pad my own ego?  But no, I was being obedient to God's Word.  No, it was pride. No it was...See Mark.  I still can't figure it out.

  None of us have pure motives but God, and God does not relate to us on the basis of the purity of our hearts, as Christians our relationship is based on His love for us and this is described as a gift based relationship.  
   I went to the meetings sometimes with a hungry joyful expectation and other times purely out of guilt.  Are not both of these attitudes self centered?  God has freed us from this kind of split personality by removing our motives/attitudes/inner dispostion as the means to live the Christian life.  Faith is not the manipulation of my inner life via "tricky inner doings" where I purge myself of all inner impurity and open my heart to God.  God has opened his heart to us and inspite of all our impurity has "purified our hearts by faith" at salvation.
   I am truly liberated from all the soul searching that GG promoted in his teaching (look what it did for him!) and can rest my weary head on the bosom of Jesus.  It is the undemanding love of God, that only gives and does not require, that is the only really effective means of changing my heart at all.  "lovest thou me" some how got through to Peter and it is the only thing that ever had the power to get me to choose in those times of temptation to say no to sin and yes to God.


Hey this is helping.  In retrospect, I see that the seedlings of pride were growing up there right along my earnest and genuine spiritual growth.  
Well, in that case, I would say that I should be thankful to God that they were uprooted later, even if it was painful.  I'm just afraid that the good stuff was also.  But, maybe he will cause it to grow again without the pride.  If that is the case, then I would say that God is to be praised in the long run, though I did not see it at the time.

This is a fascinating study.  At the same time that my spirit was responding to God's word and growing, I bit-by-bit allowed myself to take on the prideful persona of the assembly with the excuse that it was spiritual and for God when really it was for my ego.  What a trip.

 Yep!  I think that is it.  I wouldn't worry about the "good stuff" coming back, as it was a gift in the first place and part of the facts of your inheritance in Christ (boy to I love to say that now! )  After our sojourn in the Assembly I think God may just want us to learn to accept that we don't need to try to "fix" all the confusion and pain we feel, but like most wounded and healing patients take a rest for a bit.  
   I know that some may say here,"hey, you're always saying we need to face our Assembly past and honestly deal with these issues, and now you're saying to forget it!?"  There is a wide range of difference between personalities of those who were in the Assembly.  The introverted sincere follower who followed in compliance to the shaming techiniques of the leaders does not need to search their souls, but the extroverted former leader from whom the Assembly provided a means of feeling superior to others and their delight in controlling those under them, these really do need to honestly face these issues.
   Thanks for raising these important issues Arthur!
                                    God Bless,  Mark C.

[Arthur]

  "Who are we really?" was a question from my generation that attempted to understand reality by looking inside.  God has placed eternity in our hearts and that search will only lead to incomplete answers and probably agnosticism regarding the question.

Heh, is that where "You've got the truth within" came from?
   

 None of us have pure motives but God, and God does not relate to us on the basis of the purity of our hearts, as Christians our relationship is based on His love for us and this is described as a gift based relationship.  
   I went to the meetings sometimes with a hungry joyful expectation and other times purely out of guilt.  Are not both of these attitudes self centered?  God has freed us from this kind of split personality by removing our motives/attitudes/inner dispostion as the means to live the Christian life.  Faith is not the manipulation of my inner life via "tricky inner doings" where I purge myself of all inner impurity and open my heart to God.  God has opened his heart to us and inspite of all our impurity has "purified our hearts by faith" at salvation.
   I am truly liberated from all the soul searching that GG promoted in his teaching (look what it did for him!) and can rest my weary head on the bosom of Jesus.  It is the undemanding love of God, that only gives and does not require, that is the only really effective means of changing my heart at all.  "lovest thou me" some how got through to Peter and it is the only thing that ever had the power to get me to choose in those times of temptation to say no to sin and yes to God.

Thank you, Mark, for reminding me about this.  When it comes time to make a decision, I need to remember Jesus and do the right thing because I love him.  I hope my heart is soft enough to respond "yes" to that question.

Yep!  I think that is it.  I wouldn't worry about the "good stuff" coming back, as it was a gift in the first place and part of the facts of your inheritance in Christ (boy to I love to say that now! )  After our sojourn in the Assembly I think God may just want us to learn to accept that we don't need to try to "fix" all the confusion and pain we feel, but like most wounded and healing patients take a rest for a bit.  
  I know that some may say here,"hey, you're always saying we need to face our Assembly past and honestly deal with these issues, and now you're saying to forget it!?"  There is a wide range of difference between personalities of those who were in the Assembly.  The introverted sincere follower who followed in compliance to the shaming techiniques of the leaders does not need to search their souls, but the extroverted former leader from whom the Assembly provided a means of feeling superior to others and their delight in controlling those under them, these really do need to honestly face these issues.

So does that mean I can just veg out and watch movies and play video games all day?
That's restful, isn't it

Arthur

[Mark C.]

Hi Arthur!  

  I don't want to sound like I have all the answers, because I most certainly do not.  It's just that I have wrangled with these things in my mind since I first read Walden Pond at age 12 and have come to some strongly held opinions.
  The area that I believe is not opinion, but fact, has to do with the Christian life and the Gospel.  We are all different and God deals with us as individuals, and this means a one-size-fits-all description of what my relationship with God should look like fails.
   Since I was a shy and introverted person while in the Assembly eveyone was always telling me to "rejoice,"  while the extroverted GG type was moved into leadership quickly.  Personality type is not a good gauge of "reality with God."  Not only should we not judge others in this manner Paul stated that he didn't judge himself.  In other words trying to ascertain one's sincerity/reality/pure motive via their prayers, etc. can not be done.  We can judge behavior and teaching/belief system only.  This is why God tells us to judge in some verses and not to judge in others; it is not a contradiction, just the above distinctions being applied.
   The point I was trying to make is to stop thinking of our Christian life via developing pure motives within, as this can only be produced by God.  Remember Jesus said, "we can't add a cubit to our stature" and He said this in relation to anxious care, and that's all we can produce by looking within.
   As far as sitting around and playing video games, etc.:  I have a pretty high score with Asteroids   !
   I have in a mind a little series on Peter and how God brought him from self confidence, failure, and then to a life that trusted God.  To me it seems to explain a whole lot about the changes that lead to growth in our lives with Christ.
    We are responsible for our behavior as Christians, and this is not the same as being responsible for my inner disposition.  I'm not saying the Christian life is total passivity.  Whereas a fellow Christian has no business to come up and exhort me to "rejoice," but if he sees me steal money out of the plate on Sunday morning it is his duty to say something.
    The Assembly emphasized motives because it was a means to control the members.  Even to this day there are those who totally discount this BB because we don't have the proper motives (it is for gossip, out of bitterness, etc.) and the facts are immaterial to them.  It's a total reversal of how God would have us live our Christian llives and a means to keep us in a subjective fog of moral relavatism.
   We should not live our lives based on guilt for having impure motives/thoughts and think that God is waiting for us to purify these things via certain disciplines to earn his approval.  Neither should we sit around and wait for God to move on our hearts and produce these things.  Both of these methods are not a life of faith, but one of self righteousness.  The issues of approval by God and of holiness are settled already in our salvation and this makes us free from wrestling with my inner life.  How much "reality" I have is trumped by the fact that God's gift of my salvation makes me complete (reality).
    Peter went fishing (1st century video game  ) and Jesus went after Peter in JN 21.  It was this personal relationship and Jesus' love for Peter that caused him to follow Jesus.  His self confidence was broken, but Jesus encouraged him to trust in God.  Though Peter failed even as an Apostle (Gal. 2) he had been truly converted to the absolute confidence in God's grace.
                             God Bless,  Mark C.    

[Arthur]

 The area that I believe is not opinion, but fact, has to do with the Christian life and the Gospel.  We are all different and God deals with us as individuals, and this means a one-size-fits-all description of what my relationship with God should look like fails.
   Since I was a shy and introverted person while in the Assembly eveyone was always telling me to "rejoice,"  while the extroverted GG type was moved into leadership quickly.  Personality type is not a good gauge of "reality with God".

Mark, have you read the article on "The Discipling Dilema" on the Rick Ross site?
http://www.rickross.com/reference/icc/ICC276.html

They did some psychological tests on members of the Boston Church of Christ and on normal people and found some intereting results.

Here's a quote, "[speaking of tests performed on mainline church members]There were no significant changes in psychological type scores...
This is what one would expect since mainline denominations typically recognize and respect individual differences. They value this diversity. They encourage individuals to become what they are uniquely capable of becoming and not mere copies of someone else. This is not the case, however, with certain manipulative sects. It is conformity that they value, not diversity. They tend to make people over after the image of a group leader, the group norm, or what the group regards as the ideal personality. Such pressure to falsify type is one of the reasons for the psychological damage often experienced by their members. They are made to feel guilty for being what they are and inferior for not being what the group wants them to be. As the gap between the real self and the pretended self grows larger and larger, the self esteem of these members sinks lower and lower. They become frustrated and depressed. They may develop serious emotional problems. They may become so dependent on the control exercised by their leaders that they engage in irrational behavior."

   Peter went fishing (1st century video game  ) and Jesus went after Peter in JN 21.  It was this personal relationship and Jesus' love for Peter that caused him to follow Jesus.  His self confidence was broken, but Jesus encouraged him to trust in God.  Though Peter failed even as an Apostle (Gal. 2) he had been truly converted to the absolute confidence in God's grace.

Just last night I was thinking about that passage in John 21.  Peter says, "I go a fishing".  I can really identify with that.  For those three years with Jesus, Peter really got his hopes up, got spiritually motivated, but then it seemed like it all came crashing down.  Jesus died and I think Peter's hope died with him.  What's more, his belief in himself had to have come to an end when he found himself denying the Lord three times after so vehemently swearing that he would never do such a thing.  

But then Jesus comes back again, risen from the dead.  Still, Peter says, "I go a fishing".  
Why?  I think maybe it hadn't sunk in yet.  Or maybe Peter could not muster up any motivation to go out and do anything spiritual again, even though Jesus had risen.  Maybe Peter was too stunned by his own failure to notice or care.  In the previous chapter Jesus had just shown them all his hands and side and told Thomas put his hand in his side.  It was real alright, but not enough to pull Peter out of his slump, I guess.

So Jesus comes to him again, because he needed it.  And he gets real personal with Peter, so Peter can feel it and listen up.  I could just see Peter thinking, "Feed your sheep?  I just showed myself to be a coward and denied you three times, what do I have to offer your sheep? A good example of what not to be?"  But Jesus says it three times and I think finally gets his point across.  

I've always wondered about what Jesus says next about when you were younger and when you are older.  I think what it means is that things are different now for Peter.  No longer can or will he live by the power of his own ability (which failed, as he well learned).  He now will be in the hands of God and live or die by His power alone.  That's how Peter will feed his sheep and that's how he can go on with life--the life that God has for him.

I'm thinking that perhaps the best thing for us to do, after our experience in the assembly, is to help others.  That's the one thing I've been very reluctant to do because I don't think I have anything to offer and I don't have much confidence in myself or others or even in what God can do in their lives.  Perhaps things will change or are changing.  Still a work in progress isn't it.

Arthur

[Mark C.]

Mark, have you read the article on "The Discipling Dilema" on the Rick Ross site?
http://www.rickross.com/reference/icc/ICC276.html

 They become frustrated and depressed. They may develop serious emotional problems. They may become so dependent on the control exercised by their leaders that they engage in irrational behavior."
 
  Thanks Author for the quote as I had not read this article.  The last paragraph could describe why some Assembly members have been unable to live apart from the group.  Too bad there is not a methadone like treatment for former members of a cult.  This also explains why we can't call the women involved with GG as necessarily having "consensual" relations with GG.

Just last night I was thinking about that passage in John 21.
 
  See!  We both were being led by the Spirit   !

But then Jesus comes back again, risen from the dead.  Still, Peter says, "I go a fishing".  
Why?  I think maybe it hadn't sunk in yet.  Or maybe Peter could not muster up any motivation to go out and do anything spiritual again, even though Jesus had risen.  Maybe Peter was too stunned by his own failure to notice or care.  In the previous chapter Jesus had just shown them all his hands and side and told Thomas put his hand in his side.  It was real alright, but not enough to pull Peter out of his slump, I guess.

So Jesus comes to him again, because he needed it.  And he gets real personal with Peter, so Peter can feel it and listen up.  I could just see Peter thinking, "Feed your sheep?  I just showed myself to be a coward and denied you three times, what do I have to offer your sheep? A good example of what not to be?"  But Jesus says it three times and I think finally gets his point across.  

I've always wondered about what Jesus says next about when you were younger and when you are older.  I think what it means is that things are different now for Peter.  No longer can or will he live by the power of his own ability (which failed, as he well learned).  He now will be in the hands of God and live or die by His power alone.  That's how Peter will feed his sheep and that's how he can go on with life--the life that God has for him.

I'm thinking that perhaps the best thing for us to do, after our experience in the assembly, is to help others.  That's the one thing I've been very reluctant to do because I don't think I have anything to offer and I don't have much confidence in myself or others or even in what God can do in their lives.  Perhaps things will change or are changing.  Still a work in progress isn't it.

Arthur

  There is much to speculate about in this passage, and I tend to see things the way you do in your musings above.  Our own understanding of our humanity, and others, helps us to draw some subtle conclusions here.  It is these real human interactions with Jesus that add a dimension we might miss from just learning the facts of God's love and grace.
  We of course don't have physical visits from Jesus, so there is the question of how we can have a "personal relationship".  In the Assembly we were supposed to get messages from our times of Bible reading where God "revealed" his "timely" message("you will hear a voice behind you saying, this is the way, walk ye in it").
  Ex-members are probably very confused with how to answer the questions in the last paragraph.  "Decision Making And The Will of God", by Friesen, will probably be a great help for these folks.  The difficult part of walking by faith is that we may miss those feelings we experienced of "it's better felt than telt."  It could be that Jesus words to Peter about "when you are older" refer to a maturity of faith that can confidently follow God without Jesus physical presence with him.
   The last chapters in John's Gospel focus on Jesus' instructions in light of his leaving them.  These passages have been sometimes turned into a "higher life" teaching where we learn to access a personal relationship with Christ that produces a higher level of spirituality.  These "spiritual insights" fail at the human level, and Peter provides a great example for us right at the end of John that pull the rug out from under these super spiritual achievers views.
   It is the honest Peter types (broken self confidence), who feel like you do Arthur, whom God can indeed use.  When I tell folks here that God has a special place in His heart for Wounded Pilgrims and a special ministry for them I'm not just trying to encourage them; I actually believe this to be true!  Little is taught about living the Christian life in the Christian world, besides ethical instruction on one side, and the Higher life stuff on the other.  
   Our Assembly past can provide a wealth of balanced understanding that can strengthen our brethren (what Jesus told Peter to do); and not just former Assembly members, but the wider evangelical community.  The love of Jesus and His absolute commitment to fill our lives with hope(not only a generalized hope of heaven, but a personal promise of a life filled with great purpose and value.) when we trust this it leads to a great effectiveness and a much happier life.
                                God Bless,  Mark C.

[BeckyW]

 I'm thinking that perhaps the best thing for us to do, after our experience in the assembly, is to help others.  That's the one thing I've been very reluctant to do because I don't think I have anything to offer and I don't have much confidence in myself or others or even in what God can do in their lives.  Perhaps things will change or are changing.  Still a work in progress isn't it.

Arthur

Arthur, just catching up on reading and saw this.  You've been quite a lot of help to maybe more people than you know this past year(plus) just with your quotes, links, RFTW board and other posts.  Not to mention your testimony, which had to strike home for anybody who ever was in a training home and lived to regret it.  What you said recently about dichotomy sent me going for the dictionary.  And you're right.  Good kept us in the assemblies even when outweighed by bad.  Such a combination.  Verne's Tersteegen hymn for instance.  Wonderful hymn.  But I learned it ...from Hymns and Spiritual Songs.  Singing about leaving idols for Christ while wrapped up in an idolatrous, religious pattern of meeting.  
Anyway, I often appreciate your perspective, though I'm not into the reformed/thelogical conversations.
Becky