Contemporary Christian Culture

[editor]

Clarence,
  Your observations parallel mine. This can also be carried to political life, the so-called exclusive domain of the republican party as the home for the Christian right.  Yet the Sermon on the Mount as Jesus taught was anything but right wing politics! Personally, as a Vietnam veteran, my motto is I love my country, but I don't trust my government. And this seems to be the motivation of the framers of the Constitution, fugitives from the English church-state.  Now we have the popular consumer culture of the good old USA, which has become the mecca for this burgeoning Christian pop culture of music and literature, consistent with K-Mart quality.  I encourage folks to read the classics, the bible of course, but add some Dostoevsky, a little Melville, some CS Lewis, a bit of Shakespeare. Just as junk food warnings are becoming more necessary for health, a junk culture warning is in order for Christians today.  Bravo for mithandir's insights!  Wanted: original christian thinkers for an unprecedented conformist culture!
<out of the box>

Very interesting Wayne!  Also, it's great to have you post here, I wish you would do it more often.

I couldn't agree with you more about politics.  A few years back, I couldn't imagine how a Christian could be anything other than a republican.  Republicans were right, Democrats were wrong, and the third parties were wronger or less right, depending on which one.  

Curiously, when I became free of The Assembly, my mind was able to ponder things in a different way---out of the box, as you say----and I haven't been a republican since 1999.

I would love to hear what is happening with you, especially with the international experience that has undoubtedly shaped your views.

One thing for sure,  even when we are absolutely convinced we know the "right" answer to something, we know nothing as we ought.   (not to say we don't know anything, but that we almost never know as much as we think we do.)

Brent

[Robert E. Beasley]

Contemporary Christian music is usually theologically shallow and technically sloppy. And

*** Key term is usually. But that's okay. Not everyone is a theologian. The technically sloppy comment is just arrogant.

It has been said that Nashville session musicians who are paid to add backing instrumentals to CCM albums refer to

**** Same as secular music.

True musical innovation – i.e., traditional folk, neo-classical, progressive acoustic music, or any other departure from the norm is not allowed in CCM.

**** That's because there is little market for it. I don't like what I hear on most CCM stations either. All sounds same to me.

Increasingly, CCM artists are being marketed on the basis of sex appeal. A look at some of the newer young female artists shows photos of them which are, shall we say, much more revealing than they would have been ten or twenty years ago. And look at the

**** True. Same as secular artists. It is sad.

...yet their private lives are often indistinguishable from those in the world. Jaci Velasquez, for instance, can be seen acting in “Chasing Papi,” a movie which is “inappropriate for young children because of mild sexuality and language.”

**** I would bet this is not the norm. Plus, you don't know the private lives of the artists. Most love the Lord and are as holy as you and me. Luckily, it is not our own righteousness that saves us from our sins.

Let us consider Christian books. ...Yet I can also honestly say that the “Left Behind” series is among the most poorly written novels I have ever been exposed to. Christian fiction

**** In your opinion. Some like the book a lot. I read some books too (although not a lot of novels), and I rather thought the first book in the series was good. The authors are NOT novices. They are professional writers with professional publishing staffs. The books are good for what they are good for.

What about the ridiculous “What Would Jesus Eat” diet books? Whatever happened to books on sound theology and the duty of Christians?

**** Yes, these are rediculous. Talk about going overboard. There are still books that touch theological issues.

The problem in all of this and in what’s broadcast on Christian radio as well, is that these things have long since ceased to be a ministry. They are all part of a business.

**** Ministry by who's definition? When anything is done well, it brings glory to God. Just because you would do it one way does not mean we all must do it that way. I fall into this trap myself sometimes when I get worked up about stuff. I hate much of the cookie cutter CCM that is out there too. Some groups are just a bunch of pretty people put together and taught to sing and dance. That stinks. I like bands of a few guys that got together to jam and made it into something. Not those groups where a producer conducts tryouts and the pretty people get to be in a band. In my opinion, that is just commercial and pathetic.

A ministry that can’t be corrupted would be for a person to have a responsible day job, then to study and practice by night so that he or she could give concerts for free. Or a

**** Can't be corrupted? Okay, here's the scenario: He goes out, plays for free, then picks up a hooker afterward. Brother, you are being very judgemental. Motives are not for you to judge. It is okay, by the way to make a living from your ministry, that that is what God has led you to do.

person could learn to play a musical instrument and play it well, then teach free classes to those who can’t afford to take lessons. A Christian artist who wanted to glorify God

**** That is one type of ministry. But not the best. Others are just as good.

with his guitar could get a responsible job – say, as an electrical engineer – and buy several inexpensive guitars to give to kids in his neighborhood. He could start a guitar class. Then he could host a graduation recital where the kids invited families and friends, and the Gospel was preached.

**** See scenario above once again.

If a man or woman wants to be a Christian artist, he or she can study the craft of the art. A Christian guitarist should know how to read standard notation and tablature, should know about altered tunings and modes, should seek to learn good fingerstyle technique, etc. He should not be content merely to play strummy-strum-strum praise choruses with lyrics like this:

Lord, I lift my hands to You,
Lord, I lift my hands to You,
Lord, I lift my hands to You,
Praise Your Name

**** So, you've decided that God does not like this?

repeated a dozen times. And when it comes to poetry, lyrics, and stories, pleeeease, go to school! A Christian poet should be able to recognize iambs, trochees, spondees, dactyls, and anapests – and know how to use them. He or she should be able to write a sestina, a villanelle, a sonnet or a haiku. He or she should know how to build a metaphor, a word picture, a parable. Consider the literary group known as “the Inklings”. J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis were both members of that society. They pushed each other to excellence in their writing. And look at the result: they blow most modern authors clean out of the water.

**** No they don't. Of course you said most, so you could be right. This sounds like the argument that the music of Fanny Crosby and those folks just blow CC worship music out of the water. Not true. Those songs are classics, but they are not better in any way from a musical perspective. Annointed in their time, but not musically better by any means.

**** You sound very intelligent/classically trained and all that jazz. But you know what? None of that stuff matters. Nice to know maybe. Important for others. But not necessary for everyone.

See comments above

[Peacefulg]

Hi all, would you say that this group of people are taking the CCM argument to extreme, or is their point right.

One thing they continue to mention is who the aritist state influnce them, and from going to some of these concert I can verify that these people have said things on stage and played music of popular artist in the past and present.

http://www.corruptchristianmusic.com/home/

Cheers, and I enjoy this posting a lot.
G

[Peacefulg]

Robert, you are right the Fanny Crosby, and other "oldies but goodies" are not the end all.  There are a ton of artist today that write just a deep words (i.e., Fred Hammond, Excelsior, Michal Card, etc.).   There will always be men and women willing lift his name on high and exalt him in song, just that you might not find them for the most part being played on the radio regular.

Good thing about it, is that you normally will find their cds in the half off or less section of the store.  

Cheers,
G

[Oscar]

Music and Politics,

An interesting connection.

Politically, I've been a Democrat, a Republican, an Independent, with a short stint as a Socialist while in college.  

Actually, I am a Christian who votes according to my conscience, which I like to think is Biblically informed.

This morning I was on a weekend getaway with Caryl.  I turned on the tv to a cable station, and they were showing a banquet of a group of Iowa Democrats that took place Saturday evening.

The crowd was being warmed up by a comedian who was doing a George W. Bush impersonation.  The joke he told, in a GWB voice, went:

We went to war with Iraq to preserve religious freedom.  That's right, religious freedom.

We are fighting to protect the rights of Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, and Muslims.  

That's right, we are fighting to protect their rights.

Their right to reject the one lord and savior, Jesus Christ.

The crowd thought this was uproarously funny, and howled with laughter. Th comedian recieved a big round of applause.

  I sat there with  a dull, sick feeling spreading through my
"guts".  I have talked to many of these "liberal" folks who aren't religious at all and ascribe to the current ideas on separation of "church" and state.

But these were all leaders and big contributors to the Iowa Democratic organization.  Their mockery of Christ was quite open.

I am not under the illusion that all Democrats agree with them, nor that being a Republican corresponds with godliness.  

But I won't be voting with these folks real soon.

Thomas Maddux

[d3z]

http://www.corruptchristianmusic.com/home/

Interesting site.  It seems to be a mixture of lots of sad truths about many of these artists, along with conspiracy-theory type logical fallacies.  That type of stuff tends to turn me off, even if there is some truth to what they say.

I did notice that I don't like most of the artists on their lists.  Of the ones I do listen to, I only like some of their songs, usually because they have songs that are just weird.

[chrisnortonfan1]

Interesting comments all
In re: to politics, I have found myself leaning more toward the left as I get older.  I used to be hardcore, right Republican (as any good evangelical Christian should be! ).  However, as I examine issues, I truly find it hard to understand what being a Christian has to do with being "pro-gun, capitalistic, or agreeing with Rush Limbaugh."  I am not saying you can't be a Christian and not support these things.  However, the looks of consternation I get from fellow Christians when I say I'm for instance, an environmentalist, is quite amusing.  I see things on both sides of the political spectrum that I agree with.  I'm a virulently pro-life environmentalist who does not trust the government, so what does that make me??

Continuing the CCM thread, I think too much emphasis is put on the artist's lifestyles.  People are devastated when someone like Amy Grant gets divorced or Sixpence None the Richer says "we are not a Christian band." The bottom line is that many Christians cannot separate the art from the musician.  I will be honest, there are HEATHEN musicians (i.e. Smashing Pumpkins A.K.A Zwan,  Tori Amos) whose music I listen to, well because I think it is great and artistic music.  Do I condone their lifestyles? No.  But can people tell me that I shouldn't listen to music because of the type of person who makes it? I don't think so.  In that case, anyone who loves to the "oldies" stations better quit listening and get out their old Pat Boone records.  You think the Beatles were in a normal mindset when they wrote their music?  How about Frank Sinatra's lifestyle, what about him?  Elvis??? Guess how many Christians who diss these modern groups listen to their stuff.  What about the old school composers? Remember Mozart?  The point is if you can't enjoy music for what it is, I think you are missing out.  That said, I know people won't agree with me.  Clarence raised a good point about CCM being "glamourized." See very many ugly Christian artists these days? They all are cute, perky, and sing pre-manufactured tripe from the Nashville music machine.  Just check out the liner notes sometime.  A lot of the artists don't write their own stuff or play anything.  

That website that was  brought up is kinda laughable.  If I want conspiracy theories, I'll get out my X-files collection.  The efforts we Christians make to tear each other down is amazing.  I believe firmly the Church is it's own worst enemy.   The Church puts way too much emphasis on people in places of "prominence," whether they be singers, preachers, or politicians.  


If Geftaky's downfall has taught all of us one thing, it is that we should know better than adhere to this creedo.  Men will fail us, God will not.

And yes Becky, City on a Hill is awesome, mainly because of the people behind it.  For an awesome worship Cd, go get Glassbyrd.

And one final point, does anyone remember the "Thief in the Night" movie series from the 70s?  It came out around the time of the Jesus Movement.  I remember seeing it as a 6 year old kid in my local Methodist church and being traumatized about missing the rapture.  And I thought some of the assembly propoganda was bad!

Off the soapbox, back to work.  Hope I didn't horrify anyone with my rantings!

Noel

[outdeep]

The thing that makes politics between conservatives and liberals so difficut is that there is such a divide on moral issues, especially abortion, homosexual adjenda, and the place of religion in society.

There are also some very basic assumption differences between the two groups as to whether one should read a historical document (whether a Bible or a Constitution) and take the writer's intent or read into the document the sensibilities of modern (or more exactly postmodern) society.

I, for one, started voting based solely on the one issue I understood - the pro-life position that we need to support the needs of the baby as well as the woman.

Over the years, I educated myself on other issues (gun control/2nd ammendment, Great society welfare vs. Compassionate conservatism, big business trickle down vs. government regulated distribution of wealth, etc.) as well and formed opinions.

However, it is the blataint moral/religious ones that keep me living in the conservative camp.  When I pick up books by liberal spokesmen (who all seem to be comedians these days) and I see the blatant hatred they express towards God (e.g., the mocking Supply Side Jesus), I have a hard time attempting to listen to what they have to say.

I know we conservatives have Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter who get pretty sharp (and occasionally nasty) with their wit, but at least they are not trashing Jesus Christ.

If I had to, I could live happily in a gunless society with socialized medicine with my higher salary being redistributed to help the poor.  But, I just cannot have any part with the Liberal disregard of human life and unwillingness to be open to solutions that would help both mother and baby as well as their stand on other important moral issues.

[Scott McCumber]

And one final point, does anyone remember the "Thief in the Night" movie series from the 70s?  It came out around the time of the Jesus Movement.  I remember seeing it as a 6 year old kid in my local Methodist church and being traumatized about missing the rapture.  And I thought some of the assembly propoganda was bad!


Noel

Noel,

The Thief in the Night Series was shown as an outreach in Tuscola several times. We set up in a big tent on the main drag in town.

It was terrifying on many levels. I don't think anyone was saved after watching those films and I'm betting a lot of Christians were second guessing their choice after viewing!

I spent a lot of my childhood expecting to have to hide out during the Great Tribulation. When I spent a summer at Steve Irons' home I spent some time dropping dry ice into coffee cans full of dried beans earmarked as provisions for Christians in hiding during the tribulation. (Margaret, correct me if that is not the case. I remember doing that with Danny several afternoons.)

Growing up in fear and dread. What fun.

Scott

[outdeep]

However, the looks of consternation I get from fellow Christians when I say I'm for instance, an environmentalist, is quite amusing.

It depends what you mean by environmentalist.  When I was in the Boy Scouts in the 1960's, we used to call it Ecology which basically means, we be good stewards of the Earth.   We recycled, respected nature, left the animals alone, didn't take more than we needed, cleaned up after ourself.  If we are going to cut trees, we have a plan to replenish the trees, etc.

If that is environmentalism, I think 95% of people would agree with you.  Most people think that we should have general plans to care for the world about us.

Unfortunately in recent decades, the term also includes a philosophy/religion that elevates nature and animals to the place of man and higher than man.   It sees man, not as created in the image of God, but a problematic part of the Panthiestic balance.  The AIDS epidemic and aportion, for instance, is a good thing because it cuts back man - who is WAY out of balance and brings nature back into harmony.

If environmentalism simply mean being a good steward of the Earth, I think we would all be on board.  However, the religious/philosophical overtones of the movement is probably why you get the odd looks at church.

[M2]

The thing that makes politics between conservatives and liberals so difficut is that there is such a divide on moral issues, especially abortion, homosexual adjenda, and the place of religion in society.

There are also some very basic assumption differences between the two groups as to whether one should read a historical document (whether a Bible or a Constitution) and take the writer's intent or read into the document the sensibilities of modern (or more exactly postmodern) society.

I, for one, started voting based solely on the one issue I understood - the pro-life position that we need to support the needs of the baby as well as the woman.

Over the years, I educated myself on other issues (gun control/2nd ammendment, Great society welfare vs. Compassionate conservatism, big business trickle down vs. government regulated distribution of wealth, etc.) as well and formed opinions.

However, it is the blataint moral/religious ones that keep me living in the conservative camp.  When I pick up books by liberal spokesmen (who all seem to be comedians these days) and I see the blatant hatred they express towards God (e.g., the mocking Supply Side Jesus), I have a hard time attempting to listen to what they have to say.

I know we conservatives have Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter who get pretty sharp (and occasionally nasty) with their wit, but at least they are not trashing Jesus Christ.

If I had to, I could live happily in a gunless society with socialized medicine with my higher salary being redistributed to help the poor.  But, I just cannot have any part with the Liberal disregard of human life and unwillingness to be open to solutions that would help both mother and baby as well as their stand on other important moral issues.

Dave S,

I agree with your perspective of the conservative vs liberal debate. The ideal would be to have a benevolent dictator, but that seems almost impossible in a world full of corruption. The Nigerian President ObaSanjo is a Christian, and is the best thing that has happened to Nigeria. GG attempted to get audience with him on his last visit to Nigeria. I guess that probably helped to strengthen GG's image as a Christian leader. Anyway, when voting one has to almost chose the least of the evils. I personally would lean to the conservative mind-set, though I understand that Jimmy Carter was a Democrat, in which case I would have likely voted for him. The American system does have the advantage of being able to vote for the President and also vote for the 'local' representative. In Canada we vote for the local guy and the leader of the party with the most votes ends up being PrimeMinister. Also, Canada is very liberal. Even the conservative party is right wing liberal.

...
I spent a lot of my childhood expecting to have to hide out during the Great Tribulation. When I spent a summer at Steve Irons' home I spent some time dropping dry ice into coffee cans full of dried beans earmarked as provisions for Christians in hiding during the tribulation. (Margaret, correct me if that is not the case. I remember doing that with Danny several afternoons.)
...

Scott, that was for Y2K!

Lord bless,
Marcia

[Rachel]

The Thief in the Night Series was shown as an outreach in Tuscola several times. We set up in a big tent on the main drag in town.

It was terrifying on many levels. I don't think anyone was saved after watching those films and I'm betting a lot of Christians were second guessing their choice after viewing!

I spent a lot of my childhood expecting to have to hide out during the Great Tribulation. When I spent a summer at Steve Irons' home I spent some time dropping dry ice into coffee cans full of dried beans earmarked as provisions for Christians in hiding during the tribulation. (Margaret, correct me if that is not the case. I remember doing that with Danny several afternoons.)

Growing up in fear and dread. What fun.

Scott

We watched that movie at camp the year that Iraq invaded Kuwait.  At that time, all the adults were talking about how this was the beginning of the end.  

That was not the first "end times" movie I had seen at a teen event.  Every time we had to watch one of those, I would get physically ill and have to leave.  Growing up, I had learned to control my emotions and usually I was always able to analyze and override my initial emotional reaction to stuff.  However, when it came to those movies, they absolutely terrified me.  

Preparation for that time was the excuse for a lot of the hard core child training in my home growing up.  The fear of the actual end times themselves and the fear of not being spiritually ready, being an “overcomer”, was an ever-present reality and motivator in my world as a child.

My grandmother had a metal garbage can full of beans in the lecture hall.  It had a table cloth over the top and they set a lamp on it to make it look like an odd sized round table.  

It took a long time for me not to be terrified of the end times and eternity.  

[chrisnortonfan1]

It depends what you mean by environmentalist.  When I was in the Boy Scouts in the 1960's, we used to call it Ecology which basically means, we be good stewards of the Earth.   We recycled, respected nature, left the animals alone, didn't take more than we needed, cleaned up after ourself.  If we are going to cut trees, we have a plan to replenish the trees, etc.

If that is environmentalism, I think 95% of people would agree with you.  Most people think that we should have general plans to care for the world about us.

Unfortunately in recent decades, the term also includes a philosophy/religion that elevates nature and animals to the place of man and higher than man.   It sees man, not as created in the image of God, but a problematic part of the Panthiestic balance.  The AIDS epidemic and aportion, for instance, is a good thing because it cuts back man - who is WAY out of balance and brings nature back into harmony.

If environmentalism simply mean being a good steward of the Earth, I think we would all be on board.  However, the religious/philosophical overtones of the movement is probably why you get the odd looks at church.

I understand what you are saying.  Yeah, the PETA wackos and their ilk are not my cup of tea.  I am just sick of the lack of responsibility that especially corporate America has towards developing new technologies to clean up the environment.  I mean the gasoline engine was a great thing, but it is over 100 years old. We Americans are just so indulgent and want everything cheap and easy, including our gas!  But I'll save my anti-SUV rant ....I am an environmentalist in the truest Boy Scout sense of the word.  

Lol, I do remember the whole Jesus is coming mentality in the early 80s and how we are to prepare for the end of the world.  It was even more frightening in the assembly because of, as Rachel pointed out, the whole "we could miss the kingdom" philsophy.  Thief in the Night is a great camp classic.  I think it is even better than that awful "left behind" movie with mr. growing pains!  talk about another Christian effort at "art." Yikes!

Scott, I was at the Iron's for a summer.  We didn't do any end times preparation that I recall, maybe it wasn't vogue at the time.

[Oscar]

The thing that makes politics between conservatives and liberals so difficut is that there is such a divide on moral issues, especially abortion, homosexual adjenda, and the place of religion in society.

There are also some very basic assumption differences between the two groups as to whether one should read a historical document (whether a Bible or a Constitution) and take the writer's intent or read into the document the sensibilities of modern (or more exactly postmodern) society.

I, for one, started voting based solely on the one issue I understood - the pro-life position that we need to support the needs of the baby as well as the woman.

Over the years, I educated myself on other issues (gun control/2nd ammendment, Great society welfare vs. Compassionate conservatism, big business trickle down vs. government regulated distribution of wealth, etc.) as well and formed opinions.

However, it is the blataint moral/religious ones that keep me living in the conservative camp.  When I pick up books by liberal spokesmen (who all seem to be comedians these days) and I see the blatant hatred they express towards God (e.g., the mocking Supply Side Jesus), I have a hard time attempting to listen to what they have to say.

I know we conservatives have Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter who get pretty sharp (and occasionally nasty) with their wit, but at least they are not trashing Jesus Christ.

If I had to, I could live happily in a gunless society with socialized medicine with my higher salary being redistributed to help the poor.  But, I just cannot have any part with the Liberal disregard of human life and unwillingness to be open to solutions that would help both mother and baby as well as their stand on other important moral issues.

Dave and I are both Eagle Scouts.  Once when we were both attending the same evangelical church we attended their men's retreat.  It was held up in the mountains, at Idylwild.

We went for a walk together...and got lost!  

We eventually figured out how to get back to the camp.  I remember that we practiced our survival skills together.

At a Hot Dog stand.

Thomas Maddux

[Oscar]

I am the founder, president, chairman of the board and sole member of PETVIBE.

(People for the Ethical Treatment of Viruses and Bacteria)

This organization has plans to demonstrate in protest of the murder of millions of innocent viruses and bacteria by the evil members of PETA.  These people have taken their children to the evil medical profession for vaccinations.

These vaccinations are a government sponsored genocide program against innocent microbes, which after all are just trying to find something to eat!

 

Thomas Maddux