WOUNDED PILGRIMS

[Mark C.]

                                          THE SMITH FAMILY CONTINUED

           (Note:  Yes, I am ready to try this story again.  Thanks for all those who wrote.)

  You would think that the Smith's would have left the Assembly at this point, as they clearly understood now that they had been lied to by those in authority.  They also had the wake-up call via the deep offense to their normal human affections in reaction to Assembly "child training" techniques.

  But, and this is key to understanding the deceptive and controlling power of GG: the Assembly was able to take the two above normal reactions and turn them into "lack of submission to authority" and "natural affection", respectively, as being evil.

  So, when the Smith's started to think their leaders were trying to spin the situation to defend "the ministry" they saw no alternative but to quietly submit and trust that God would intervene.  On the human affection side, the NT verses about crucifying "the natural man" were dragged out and quoted as a means to quiet any objection from that part of us that provides an emotional sense that something isn't right (conscience).

  The Smith's were driven more and more into a compartmentalized kind of life where they privately adapted how they actually raised the kids and publicaly pretended to be fully submitted and good card carrying members in the Assembly.  The only problem with this is that the children saw this, and the parents also were aware of their own hypocrisy.

  The kids grew up in this kind of hypocrisy, but how would it affect them when they got older and ready to leave home?  Would they see all bible believing Christian groups as lacking in any integrity?----only involved in playing some kind of scam artistry on it's members?  Beating children until they submit to silently sitting still for many hours at a time--- week in and week out---- is this what God is like?!!

  I think it's easy to see how deeply children could be hurt from such an up-bringing.  But, like I said earlier, the different parental reactions in the group can make a big difference in how the kids actually find their way after leaving.  The parents that eventually took a stand, being sincerely deceived, and are able to separate their faith from the group, can win the respect of their children and offer the alternative of the true God who despises the evil system that the Assembly was.

  On the other hand, those that still refuse to admit that the Assembly was abusive, false, and generally did not represent "God's best":  For these, the best they can hope for is that their children will miraculously find salvation and be able to make the distinctions necessary to see that there is a God unlkike the God of the Assembly worth believing in.  This has happened, and that is wonderful, but it is doubtful if a relationship with the parents can ever be really established again.  If there is a relationship it will have to be a shallow one.  The questions then becomes:  how do the children rescue the souls of the parents still locked in deception?

                                                    God Bless,  Mark C.

   

[vernecarty]

     
  The kids grew up in this kind of hypocrisy, but how would it affect them when they got older and ready to leave home?  Would they see all bible believing Christian groups as lacking in any integrity?----only involved in playing some kind of scam artistry on it's members?  Beating children until they submit to silently sitting still for many hours at a time--- week in and week out---- is this what God is like?!!

                                                    God Bless,  Mark C.
 

What a terrible price!
One of the greatest motivations to a pursuit of holiness in my life is the recogniton of the spiritual influence I have on my children.
I already see some of my weaknesses in my own girls and I know it is not all genetic! 
My heart really aches for parents who raised their kids under George and Betty's influence, and now have to live with the contempt of their children, so far as their judgment on spiritual matters is concerned.
For many who left, it was frequently this kind of consideration that ultimately swayed them - God somehow gave grace to realise that it was the only way to save their families from abuse.
In my opinion, the loss of any spiritual influence over our children, and the subsequent inability to represent God's interests in their lives is the greatest loss exacted from those who remained in that system.
It it an incredible heart-break to observe the course of many of these young people's lives, particularly those whose parents were in positions of leadership...
Verne

[Mark C.]

Yes Verne,

  It is very sad indeed, but not without hope entirely.  It is from the ashes of these kinds of bad religious experiences that sometimes there rise up those with rather keen insights re. spiritual life.

  Paul the Apostle was a leader from a very wrong group of religionists who ended up being transformed into making a great contribution in service to the true living God.  The Sons of Jacob, who sold their own brother into slavery (some wanting to kill him) ended up with Joseph saying to them, "---And now, do not be distressed and do not be angry with yourselves for selling me here, because it was to save lives that God sent me ahead of you." (Gen. 45:5)

  I think that the only really hopeless situations are those who just refuse to humble themselves and admit they made some mistakes.  What our children, wives/husbands, people we work with, etc. really respect is the ability to be real.  Instead of the old Assembly false front we can just honestly confess our failure and the fact that we are just human.

  As the vs. above describes, (don't be distressed and do not be angry with yourselves) we can't forever camp at the place of discouragement over the past, but, and if, these brothers didn't at least have these pangs of conscience at one place in their revelation of who this lord of Egypt was, it would mean they could not be recovered.

  In short, if these former leaders (or anyone else for that matter who was in the group) can come to the place where they see how wrong they were, have consciences that are strongly affected by that awareness, and come to repentance, the use God can make of them to help other folks can be of immense value!  I'm thinking the kind of value that we see exemplified in many bible biographies.

  In the bible we see all these terrible failures: Jacob, Abraham, Moses, Peter, etc. etc., and this failing part of their lives are not hidden to make them look more "spiritual" (another good proof that the bible is from God).  The one shining star of the bible is God himself and his redeeming grace. This is the message that we need to transmit to our children!  It is a message that is best expressed through a broken heart that has been mended by God's forgiving love!!!

                    Thanks for allowing my Sunday sermon on Saturday night!   God Bless,  Mark C.
   

[Oscar]

Mark,

Excellent comments.

What if Joseph had reasoned, "A benevolent personal God would not have allowed this to happen, therefore there is no God."


Instead, in the light of a mature spiritual insight he did not have when he was sold into Egypt, he said, "do not be distressed and do not be angry with yourselves for selling me here, because it was to save lives that God sent me ahead of you."

I wonder how many of us are capable of speaking to George Geftakys in such a spirit, should the opportunity arise.  Remember, these guys had not repented either!

I am deeply grateful that I learned the things about theology, churches, people, and myself that I did through my assembly experience.  Perhaps God could have used a less painful method?

But would I have paid attention?  Who knows?

Once, shortly after my exit, I was complaining to a friend that I felt that I had wasted my youth.  He replied, "Perhaps God was protecting you from making a worse choice."  I took that to heart. 

God's wisdom is not our wisdom.  Wasted time?  What is a few years of difficulty in light of eternity with Christ?


Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

[vernecarty]

Once, shortly after my exit, I was complaining to a friend that I felt that I had wasted my youth.  He replied, "Perhaps God was protecting you from making a worse choice."  I took that to heart. 

God's wisdom is not our wisdom.  Wasted time?  What is a few years of difficulty in light of eternity with Christ?


Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

Tom this is truly stunning insight.
I have absolutely no doubt that I would have probably made some terrible choices had the Lord not put some kind of hedge (granted the assembly would not have been my choice) around my life.
All I need do is look as the lives of some realatives and friends of mine whom I grew up with and with whom I shared pretty much the same background.
One cousin my age has been married and divorced three times.
Another has been married twice already and is currently separated from his third wife.
There are some even sadder examples.
I frequently find myself asking:

Lord what was the difference?

His answer comes back with sweet and glorious assurance:

My grace is sufficient for thee...

Bless His Holy Name!!

Thanks so much for that reminder my brother...

Verne

[Mark C.]

Hi Tom and Verne!

  What kind of spirit would I respond to George with given the opportunity?  There was a time when I thought about how I might respond to a sudden encounter with him, but I think the more important question is how he would respond to his encounter with me.  I expect that he would just walk away and refuse to discuss the issue, as so many of his close former confederates have chosen to do.

  I disagree with your view, Tom, that the brethren of Joseph "had not yet repented" when Joseph gave him that reassurance (don't be angry with yourselves, etc.).  If you follow the story up to that point you will notice that the game that Joseph was playing with them was working on their consciences big time.  Judah especially seemed to recognize that their bad fortune with Joseph was the result of God's judgment on them for their past evil to Joseph.

  True, they still needed some further work in their hearts, but they were heading in the right direction by the time Joseph revealed himself to them.  I see no such movement in GG toward even the smallest twinge of conscience.  Some of his children and grandchildren have appealed directly to him, he has been confronted directly by those who were abused by him, and even his defenders agree that he was a philanderer.  This seems, at this time, to have had absolutely no effect upon him.

  Ronald Enroth dedicated a chapter to a former leader of an abusive church/cult that told the amazing story of a leader who when faced with the utter collaspe of his ministry, the accusations of former members, and who faced legal action as a result just continued to live out the rest of his life without any repentance at all.  Members actually died as a result of his directions, and still he remained steadfast until the end of his life in the belief he was serving God!

  I know this whole discussion can end up being a theological debate as to whether those like GG could actuallly be saved, or what happens to believers (if GG is truly saved) who abuse their brethren and never repent.  Of this, I cannot say, because I must confess I don't understand what is going between God's sovereign grace and man's free will---- as far as it practically works itself out in space and time.

  One thing I do know:  Repentance can be seen, and we can clearly identify it--- it is not left to the unseen mysteries of God.

It would include the following:

1.) A feeling of guilt.

2.) An admission of guilt.

3.) Expressions of remorse.

4.) A desire to make things right with those sinned against.

5.) Actions taken to make that desire to make things right clearly known by the offended.

    Joseph wanted to tell his brothers right away when he first saw them who he was, but in his wisdom realized that to do so would not be the best course to take.  Why was this?  If they were to be recovered they must be brought to a place where their consciences were softened up, and to do this he acted "harshly" with them.

  I think this would be the wisest way to deal with those like GG too, for he has hardened his heart in rejecting any kind of entreaty at all.  To just have a jolly meeting with him and talk about the great goodness of God (one former member suggested I should have a beer with him, because after all, we are just sinners like him) might take away a final opportunity for his recovery.

                                                               God Bless,  Mark C.

[moonflower2]

Mark,

Excellent comments.

What if Joseph had reasoned, "A benevolent personal God would not have allowed this to happen, therefore there is no God."

Instead, in the light of a mature spiritual insight he did not have when he was sold into Egypt, he said, "do not be distressed and do not be angry with yourselves for selling me here, because it was to save lives that God sent me ahead of you."

I wonder how many of us are capable of speaking to George Geftakys in such a spirit, should the opportunity arise.  Remember, these guys had not repented either!

I, for one, would help Betty, but since geftakee has silows prepared for himself that outnumber most in the USA, i find it hard to imagine him in a needy place. He will manipulate something for himself, regardless of the situation; ie, he will never be needy except on judgement day.

I think I would keep each kernel of corn for me and my family.   
And unless he repents, I will protect my family to the death from him.

I am deeply grateful that I learned the things about theology, churches, people, and myself that I did through my assembly experience.  Perhaps God could have used a less painful method?

But would I have paid attention?  Who knows?

Once, shortly after my exit, I was complaining to a friend that I felt that I had wasted my youth.  He replied, "Perhaps God was protecting you from making a worse choice."  I took that to heart. 

God's wisdom is not our wisdom.  Wasted time?  What is a few years of difficulty in light of eternity with Christ?

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

Interesting. I don't feel I wasted my time, either. In light of eternity, what is it? I was as most others, seeking God. Is that time wasted? Similar situations in my youth, never wasted.

How about in S.O.S. where the seeker was beaten? Wasted time? Never. She eventually found what she was seeking.

moonflower

[vernecarty]

Hi Tom and Verne!

  What kind of spirit would I respond to George with given the opportunity? 
                                                               God Bless,  Mark C.

What I am going to say will be controversial.
I consider George to fit the category of a false teacher.
I think sometimes we Christians are far too gullible in our relationships.
There has probably been no more powerful statement made regarding the destiny of men than what Lewis described in his essay "Weight of Glory".
To paraphrase, each of us is on our way to being creatures of such splendour as to prompt worship, or creatures of such unimaginable horror as to defy conception.
No one knows the ultimate fate of any man.
A long time ago, despite some rather dramatic predictions to the contrary, I stated that I did not think George would repent for I see no avenue for repentance in the Scriptures for anyone fitting the category of a false prophet or teacher.
My opinion regarding George Geftakys has not changed.
My reaction to him would be the same as the Lord evinced toward Herod - silence.
For a man in his position, I believe that is the Scriptural directive...
Verne

[brian]

A long time ago, despite some rather dramatic predictions to the contrary, I stated that I did not think George would repent for I see no avenue for repentance in the Scriptures for anyone fitting the category of a false prophet or teacher.

i completely agree, although i would phase it in more psychologcial terms. george geftakys is a textbook example of a narcissistic personality disorder running out of control.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/narcissistic-personality-disorder/DS00652/DSECTION=2

the recovery rate for such disorders is extremely low. even getting someone like that into therapy is almost impossible. recovery involves rebuilding their basic personality, which has to start with a complete breakdown of their narcissistic personality. the older they get the more impossible this becomes. with george: its not gonna happen. he'll never be sorry for all the damage he did, and he will always consider the millions of dollars and years of sacrifice we offered him simply what he was entitled to because of his own magnificance.

was it all a waste? nothing is ever a complete waste. you can always turn it into a learning experience.  but face it, all that sacrifice that went directly into george's pockets and ego was wasted.

some of the positives that came out of my time in the assembly include lifelong friendships, those we reached out to and helped directly in our local communities, those whose lives we had a positive influence on over the years, etc. i mentioned on anothet thread how glad i was that i got to live with several families before i had my own.

i think its equally important to honestly face what a crime it is for george to have demanded so much from us only to squander it on himself as it is to not get eaten up with regret for all those years we gave.

brian

[Oscar]

Folks,

Last night Caryl and I watched a documentary on Fidel Castro.  As I watched it I had the experience of "deja vu all over again", (Yogi Berra). 

What I am referring to is the experience of seeing another brilliant, charismatic, complete narcissist in action.

The first time I had this experience was when I read a biography of WWII General Douglas MacArthur back in the early 80's.  A brilliant, charismatic, leader who attracted a group of loyal, committed followers.  As he went through the war his abilities were channeled into useful venues by other leaders in more powerful positions, so his narcissistic tendencies did not destroy him.  He had to function withing limits.

As a general, he did some brilliant things, such as the lateral retreat into the Bataan Penensula in 1941 and the Inchon landings in 1951.  But his self worship finally brought him down as he began to publicly criticise president Truman about the conduct of the Korean War.  Truman canned him.

During WWII Truman had written in his diary that "MacArthur won't let anyone near him but ass kissers."   He surrounded himself with men who had ability, but were willing to give him the obsequious loyalty he desperately needed.

Sound like anyone you have known?   

Castro was made in the same mold.  He saw himself as the liberator of the oppressed of the world, demonized anyone who he didn't like, (the USA), was willing to dump anyone who shadowed his glory, even to their death, (Che Guevara), forced huge crowds to stand for hours while he delivered his "brilliant" speeches.  Today he lives in a poverty stricken country, gets his foreign exchange by running a sex industry for tourists in Havana and blames his problems on persecution by the evil capitalist world.

But he is still the great leader, and his Cuba is still "a community of freedom and hope in the midst of a world of oppression and despair."  Change a couple of words and this is quite familiar.

He still has enthusiastic followers who fill the square in Havana to cheer, (say Amen), to his ramblings.

Pathetic.....but still dangerous, though on a more limited scale than in the past.

Sad.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

[vernecarty]

The first time I had this experience was when I read a biography of WWII General Douglas MacArthur back in the early 80's.  A brilliant, charismatic, leader who attracted a group of loyal, committed followers.  As he went through the war his abilities were channeled into useful venues by other leaders in more powerful positions, so his narcissistic tendencies did not destroy him.  He had to function withing limits.


Sad.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

Considering the above point, I have never quite understood why the US Government did not attempt to deal with Castro when he visited the US in 1959 but instead treated him with disdain. They had after all formally recognized his government after the revolution despite their former support of Batista.
I think with a different approach it would have been possible to contain the man.
This is after all the kind of geo-political strategic thinking that led us to support Sadam Hussein in his war with Iran.
The policy zonks back then were far more savvy than the ones advising Bush and our current problem with Iran really highlights this.
From early on the smartest folk were saying that things would settle down in Iraq only when the sectarian conflict has been settled with the emergence of a clear winner in the inevitably bloody struggle. They were right and I doubt it will ultimately be the Sunnis. The implications are inescapable, our government's fond and fatuous projections notwithstanding.


I am very curious considering our current situation whether Cheney and gang would make the same decisions.

 More critically are they honest enough to even see how badly they screwed up?

Verne

p.s I suspect the remittances from Miami rival any foreign exchange Castro gets from his sex trade.

[Oscar]

Verne,

The point of my post was that MacArthur, Castro, and GG were all narcissists who behaved essentially the same but in different situations.

I was a young man serving my country in the USAF when the Castro revolution occurred.  I can tell you quite confidently that most Americans cheered Castro on when he ousted Batista.

They then felt betrayed and angered when he revealed himself to be a Communist.  I do not believe that any major politician of any party disagreed with Kennedy's policy toward him.  We ALL understood that he had become a tool of the USSR.  The Democratic party prior to its 1968 takeover by the hard Left was staunchly anti-Communist and supported a strong national defense.  They were also willing to fight.

I know...I was one.

During the Cuban missile crisis Castro actually sent a telegram to Kruschiev telling him to go ahead and bomb the USA even if Cuba was destroyed as a result!  The guy tried to start WWIII!  Believe me, we were ready to go.  Folks noticed Air Force bombers sitting at the ends of runways at their local airports.  Those planes had atomic weapons in their bomb bays!  They had been dispersed so the USSR could not hit them all.  All our ships were at sea, NATO was on full alert, and we were at DEFCON 2...and 1 means we start nuking folks.

It was a close call, and IMHO, Kennedy handled it correctly.

I don't think our current situation is analogous to that situation.

But, the character and behavior of narcissists is seemingly universal.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

[vernecarty]

Verne,

The point of my post was that MacArthur, Castro, and GG were all narcissists who behaved essentially the same but in different situations.

I did get that Tom.
I guess I was rambling a bit.
It did occur to me though that the point you made about MacArthur's weakness being constrained by other strong men could also apply to
Castro and George.  You are right that the would have  clearly had to have more authority also. Sorry if I muddled that a bit.
Usually these kinds of men make sure that no one of greater strength or authority remains around to possibly challenge them.
I was thinking the same could be true of a man like Saddam...

I was a young man serving my country in the USAF when the Castro revolution occurred.  I can tell you quite confidently that most Americans cheered Castro on when he ousted Batista.

Batista's killers nontheless received US mlitary training and gear...
Verne

[Oscar]

Verne,

Regarding the treatment of others by narcissistic leaders.

MacArthur ruined many men's careers and promoted others.  That is how he dealt with opposition and rewarded sycophants.

Castro sent Che Guevara to Bolivia to foment a revolution.  There were methods by which he could have communicated with him and sent him support, but he did nothing, (according to the documentary).  Guevara was captured and executed.  Then Castro created a myth about him as a martyr for freedom.

When Steve Irons was finally goaded into disagreeing with GG due to his persecution of Lee, Georges' response was swift.  First he isolated him, then he conducted a program of character assassination against him...then kicked him out.  Steve had always given him unquestioning loyalty...which counted for nothing in GG's eyes.  It was always about GG.

Regarding US support for Castro.  After ww2 Latin America, and much of the rest of the world as well, was swimming in surplus military equipment left over from the war.  Did we actively support Castro?  I don't know. 

What do you know about it?

Tom

[Mark C.]

                                      THE SMITH FAMILY CONTINUED


       Intro.:  Getting back here to our Assembly family at last, and I hope that you will be able to pick-up where we left off if you are trying to follow this story.  We last left them still in the group and starting to have some confusion of conscience as the Assembly spin machine started to go to work when confronted by those outside who saw the Assembly child training as abusive.  We will pick up the story where Betty takes the bull by the horns and has a "couples' meeting" to deal with this crisis.

   "Now, don't you Mothers be asking for God's help in training your kids," Betty strongly exhorted those assembled in the couples meeting, "because God has already given you all the help you will ever need!  All you have to do is just harden youself against your natural Mother's heart by not giving into the child when they are not obeying you!  Remember, it is the blue of the wound that cleanses the heart of a disobedient child!"

   Looking around that room filled with couples and seeing the faces of these mothers there would have told you all you have to know as to what effect this message had on them:  All hope was removed from most of the rank and file and their heads were cast down in despair.  Some of the Worker wives, on the other hand, were "standing with" Betty and giving their loud "amen's".  This is interesting because most of these "ameners" didn't even try to comply with the whole "mat training" thing and often excused themselves from the meetings due to their many "illnesses."

  Faith Smith (our Assembly mother that our story is focusing on) was thinking of just such a "Worker" mother scenario, at this time, that perfectly describes the above hypocrisy.  A Mother who had a "difficult" son was taking a weekend off with her husband without the child and a Worker Mom had volunteered to watch this boy.  This Worker saw an opportunity to show this Mom that her Son could be reformed via the Assembly methods.

  The Worker started by making everything the kid did wrong an "act of rebellion" and spanked the kid until she gained perfect compliance.  The kid strongly resisted her efforts, and as a result he just kept getting hit longer and harder!   Faith came over to the house of this Worker on some other Assembly business and observed some of this; she was horrified at the terrible bruising on the child's behind!

  The thing that makes this whole story so hypocritical is that this Worker Mom never ever did this kind of "training" on her own daughter!  This girl of her's was little Miss perfect, rarely was ever spanked, and the Mom had long ago given up on the mat training thing.  She almost never came to a meeting and instead was out shopping with her daughter, at home, or in some other kind of situation where heavy demands for child submission were never necessary.

  Faith pointed out to this Worker Mom that she was being too intense in her "training", but rebuffed by the Worker for having too much "Mother heart", as if that is a bad thing to have.  "After all," the Worker Mom said, "our natural affections must go the way of the cross and be put to death so that we can be conformed to the image of Christ."

   Faith knew better than to try and argue this point with this Assembly leader, as it would only lead to her being reported in the Worker's meeting and being put on the list of those who are not truly submitted to "God's work and ministry."  However, she continued to hold these things in her heart and it slowly but surely was leading to a breaking point.

  If this Worker Mom had treated her own child this way at least it would have demonstrated a sincerity and consistency of belief and behavior.  This might have been more convincing in keeping Faith from giving into her doubts, but the hypocrisy was too evident to be ignored; though it appears this Worker Mom was totally unaware of how contradictory her life was. (Indeed, this is based on a true story and this Mom is still a staunch defender of the group.  I wonder what their daughter is like today?  I wonder what her marriage is like as well?)

  While the Mom's "stewardship" was the kids the Dad's was to be busy in "the Ministry" and so it fell to the fathers to have "power over their wives" via making sure child training was enforced.  This later led to "Wife Training," (I had left by the time this came into being  )  A kind of pecking order was to be established where authoritarian rule was used to bring all the families into loyal devotion to the greater cause of "God's will as expressed in the Assembly."

  This had everything to do with public appearances and very little to do with private reality (does this sound a bit like what Jesus' rebuke of the pharisees was about when he mentioned "praying in your closet vs. in public"?)

  Thus, the children were being trained (especially these hypocritical leaders' kids) in a system that was grossly dishonest and abusive of those not higher up on the ladder in the group!  It would be great to hear from some of these children and let them tell their stories.  But, it probably is not likely that we shall ever hear from them.  They have been made in the hardened image of their parents, and yet like Saul of Tarsus, God's work of grace can reach those who are kicking hard against God's love for them.

  Maybe, there are some children raised in the lower echelons of Assembly life who are still feeling the pain from those early "training sessions," and who though they may not remember these early "mat training" moments, they struggle against the concept of a God who rewards hypocrites and is constantly angry with us for our failings? 

                                                             God bless,  Mark C.