Why Leaders Are Responsible

[editor]

Wow!! I never realized how bitter Jesus was in Matthew 23 before. He wasn't being very "Christ-like" was he? Where was his moderation and forgiving spirit? He just seemed to "find fault" with everyone. Maybe he was just having a bad day.

--Joe

Warning--"moderate" speech to follow:

Yes, He wasn't being very Christ-like.  If He had been in the spirit, and not just in the soul, He would have extended love and compassion on them.  He should have reached out, like a mother hen, and attempted to gather them to Himself.  However, His bitterness got the best of Him, and he did not...."

Let's not follow His example, shall we?

Warning--"moderate" speech ends above

I am amazed at what I read and hear sometimes.

Brent

[vernecarty]

Quick everybody! Let's rip Matthew 23 out of our Bibles before anyone else gets the wrong impression. Can you believe the "vindictive" torrent? un-Christ-like (according to some) indeed! While we are at it it may be advisable to also rip out Jeremiah 23...a remakable coincidence of the same chapter number is it not? A good number to remember...
Verne

p.s. And another thing, how could He blame all Scribes and Pharisees for the sin and failure of just a few? or even one? Wasn't the High Priest the guy really in charge anyway? Was it fair to blame all the Scribes and Pharisees for the blindness of Caiaphas? Was Jesus relly being fair?... I ask you...

[editor]

Warning---"moderate" speech to follow:

The reason so many of you are reading Matt 23 wrong is because you are abiding in bitterness, and in some cases hatred.  

The words of the Bible are spirit, and as such can't be comprehended if we are in the flesh, or in the soul.  As long as we abide in bitterness, not forgiving those who served us for so many years, we cannot be in the spirit, and therefore can't understand God's word.

The words themselves, and the meaning of the words, even the ideas that they seem to convey are all a mystery, and are incomprehensible to the Natural Man.  1 Cor 2:7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden [wisdom] which God ordained before the ages for our glory,

Unless we enter into the spirit, and make the choice to repent of the flesh and soul---read Watchman Nee and the other great mystics---we can no more understand God's Word than the tax code.  Verne, because you are so judgemental and highminded, it is obvious that you are in the flesh.  

So, the words themselves are nothing but a mystery...unless we are in the spirit.  Most Christians, especially the ones on this board are not in the spirit, therefore they don't understand the Bible and only hurt and confuse God's people.

 extreme "moderation" to follow.  I am in the spirit

In Matt 23,  Jesus was not rebuking the Pharisees.  How could He do that?  He loves them as His own people.  Afterall, they are someone's children, are they not?  He was reminding us that if we don't forgive them, He won't forgive us.  He wasn't against them at all.  He was actually against those who are bitter, and extreme, in the realm of the soul.  

Just because George and his system, leaders included,  SEEM to be a lot like the Pharisees in Matt 23, doesn't mean they are!  Only God knows, and it is not up to us to judge.  My spirit tells me this, and I'm not letting a bitter man's theology or reason cloud the clear voice in my spirit.

Again, Matt 23 is not in the Bible!  What you read when you THINK you are reading Matt 23 is NOT what it is actually saying!  On the contrary, your vision is clouded and you are only reading what the Enemy wants you to read and understand.  You must be in the spirit to see the hidden words and meanings.

"Moderate" speech ends above

Please understand that I am using the Code of Silence definition of "moderate,"  with all of my warnings.   I am probably not going to do any more posts like this, because they cause me to reflect on how dangerous it is to handle God's word in a capricious manner.  I am quite uncomfortable with this, especially when I know that there are some who are teaching the travesty as fact.

Brent

[vernecarty]

Warning---"moderate" speech to follow:



"Moderate" speech ends above

Please understand that I am using the Code of Silence definition of "moderate,"  with all of my warnings.   I am probably not going to do any more posts like this, because they cause me to reflect on how dangerous it is to handle God's word in a capricious manner.  I am quite uncomfortable with this, especially when I know that there are some who are teaching the travesty as fact.

Brent

Both amusing and sobering is it not? Your point is very well taken my friend...very well taken...there is a definite whiff of something truly unwholesome...enough said

Arthur m'lad let a conviction of the unchangeable goodness of God permeate all of your thinking. I have never had so much fun as when pounding out some of my more memorable observations on this forum.  I believe one secret to not getting overwhelmed by all this is to be able to maintain a sense of humor and really not take oursleves too seriously. I am going home to sweep my two lovely daughters off their little feet and smother them with kisses...man they are cute! Find some great folks with whom you can fwllowship, pray, argue, and enjoy life with. Remember He came that you might have life! and that more abundantly! Hang in there m'lad!
Verne

[Arthur]

Arthur m'lad let a conviction of the unchangeable goodness of God permeate all of your thinking.

Hi Verne.  I'm sorry, did I say something?  Do you mean "Brent ,m'lad" or "Joe, m'lad"?  An old man indeed you must be for these guys to be your lads.  Hehe

[vernecarty]

Arthur m'lad let a conviction of the unchangeable goodness of God permeate all of your thinking.

Hi Verne.  I'm sorry, did I say something?  Do you mean "Brent ,m'lad" or "Joe, m'lad"?  An old man indeed you must be for these guys to be your lads.  Hehe

Strictly a term of affection my friend. It just seemed as if you could use a little encouragement to get chin up high, grin at the sky, and wave those assembly blues bye, bye bye!  
Verne

[vernecarty]

Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem...her iniquity is pardoned  


I was greatly humbled by a post from a former leading brother on the other BB recently. The funny thing was that I had responded to a post asking why in the face of so many obvious red flags that no one seemed to have heeded the danger signals. After giving my own view of why I thought this had occurred, someone posted with only the first name and indicated that they were with me in my perspective. I responded with  a brief "thank-you". I was surprised (and I must confess a little sheepish) to read a post from the brother a short time later in which he identified himself as one of the leading brothers from SLO. (a good reminder to me why it is always important ot be gracious! especially when you don't know who you are dealing with  )
Have you ever wondered about that verse that talks about how the angels in heaven rejoice over the repentance of one sinner?
I cannot explain why, but when I read Ray's simple, honest, straightforward expression of  how he accepted responsibility for his part in what happened something strange happened in my heart. I was filled with an inexplicable and irrepressible joy. In that moment I think I really understood a bit more about that verse about the angels. I must say frankly that it was not the reaction I expected. After all the things I have written about the leadership, one would not have expected such jubilation over one who humbly came forward. What he did affected me profoundly. That one post, in my view, was worth more than everything I have written. The Lord immediately began to speak to me about the need for healing and comfort among his flock. I have been posting about the importance of faith in this process. Ray Dienzo I want to thank you for being a leader who is responsible...from my perspective, the slate is clean dear brother...
In Christ,
Verne
p.s. Former assembly leaders who refuse to repent for their part in what took place in the assemblies and to seek forgiveness from and reconciliation with thir brethren have robbed themselves and the church of a tremendous blessing. This in my view is far worse that any transgressions they committed in the assemblies...far worse.  Why?
I do not believe there is a single saint who would not joyfully forgive and reconcile with these men if they came forward. As long as they refuse to do so, the offences remain, and many are denied the opportunity to forgive and rejoice...an unrepentant spirit is literally adding insult to injury...this is not good....neither for them, nor for us...not good at all.

p.p.s If you visit the other site, send Ray an e-mail. I am sure he would enjoy hearing from you.

[M2]

I agree with you Verne. Ray is one of those ex-LBs who has 'proved himself clear in the matter' of repentance. His willingness to acknowledge his former involvement with promoting an 'evil' system demonstrates that he is a humble man. Even his attitude to now be a brother among brethren is refreshing.

Lord bless,
Marcia

[vernecarty]

I'll also pray that the IRS gets some of that hard-earned money that George stole from his followers; that his son David gets some jail time someday for the things he's done, and will probably do again; and that the next sister that Tim fondles will hit him hard right between the eyes.

What money did George steal? Maybe Wayne Matthews can tell us. He was a close confidant of George. He travelled the world with him. Wayne, did George steal money from his followers?

Who did Tim fondle? Lets have some names. What is this, the LA Times?

Perhaps you should be deleting some of those posts, Brent.

The men to whom this question should be directed are the men in leadership in Fullerton. They were all aware that all receipts went directly to George's house. Wayne Matthews lived in the Midwest and was not a part of the Fullerton leadership. Your query is unfair.
Verne

[M2]

The men to whom this question should be directed are the men in leadership in Fullerton. They were all aware that all receipts went directly to George's house. Wayne Matthews lived in the Midwest and was not a part of the Fullerton leadership. Your query is unfair.
Verne

We want the truth do we not? Wayne has been touted as a man of God over all the others in George's inner circle. He is the one who travelled not only with George but was in such close association that George sent him alone to Africa. Very few got in that close. If anyone, it would be he who is in the know. He is the one we can trust here. The question is simple. Did George steal money from his followers?

Question number 2. Tim fondled sisters. If Tim did this, what are the names of these individuals? Not difficult.

For the administrator of this bb to allow such unsubstantiated accusations to be publically displayed is a disgrace. Brent, I am really questioning your integrity here.

I suppose any of us are subject to scrutiny: Brent, Tim, GG, Wayne. Personally, I think that you are not objective on this matter.

Why would GG discuss financial matters with Wayne while travelling with him on a missionary journey to Africa? By GGs own admission, I believe that BG controlled the purse strings. I have a lot more to say on this matter but will resist blasting you with it for now.

Marcia

[Scott McCumber]

We want the truth do we not? Wayne has been touted as a man of God over all the others in George's inner circle. He is the one who travelled not only with George but was in such close association that George sent him alone to Africa. Very few got in that close. If anyone, it would be he who is in the know. He is the one we can trust here. The question is simple. Did George steal money from his followers?

Question number 2. Tim fondled sisters. If Tim did this, what are the names of these individuals? Not difficult.

Bob,

Answer to question 1: Yes. He used money earmarked for "the work" to support two shiftless sons who had no business being in spiritual leadership, had no qualifications to be in spiritual leadership (by secular or biblical litmus) and severely abused their positions of spiritual leadership. He used these funds improperly, based on the trust he deceitfully engendered in well-intentioned Christians.

Evidence is currently being sought and compiled to prove that he also stole in a more traditional sense: took money and did not put it back in circulation for the work.

I personally know a family that deeded to George farm land worth several hundreds of thousands of dollars in the 1970's. That ground was sold long ago and the money unaccounted for.

Fortunately for George and those who still cling to him, this family washed their hands of George and the Assembly years ago and are not interested in getting mixed up this current mess.

Rest assured though, someone will come forward at some point. I'm more sure of that than Brent is that George will repent.

Question 2: Not difficult? Only if you are completely insensitive to the women involved. I'm sure they are just dying to be humiliated and to put stress on their marriages and post-Geftakys lives.

I don't know why these cowardly women won't come forward with what they know. They are obviously liars. (Lurkers, please catch the sarcasm).

Once again, I'd bet it will come out in the open sooner or later.

Meanwhile, Bob, stick your fingers in the wounds if that's what it takes for you to see what is clearly before your own eyes.

Or not. This forum was originally for revealing the truth. The truth has been revealed. The rest is on your head.

Scott McCumber

[editor]

The men to whom this question should be directed are the men in leadership in Fullerton. They were all aware that all receipts went directly to George's house. Wayne Matthews lived in the Midwest and was not a part of the Fullerton leadership. Your query is unfair.
Verne

We want the truth do we not? Wayne has been touted as a man of God over all the others in George's inner circle. He is the one who travelled not only with George but was in such close association that George sent him alone to Africa. Very few got in that close. If anyone, it would be he who is in the know. He is the one we can trust here. The question is simple. Did George steal money from his followers?

Question number 2. Tim fondled sisters. If Tim did this, what are the names of these individuals? Not difficult.

For the administrator of this bb to allow such unsubstantiated accusations to be publically displayed is a disgrace. Brent, I am really questioning your integrity here.

I don't recall ever saying that Tim "fondled" sisters.  I do have the names of two women who claim improper contact with Tim.  One of them is on this BB, and another left the ministry some time ago.  Why don't you ask them to come forward of their own accord?  It is very difficult to "out" people.  That fear is one of the main weapons used by George to keep his personal failings under wraps.  I know the names of the women George assualted, do you?  Same with Tim, except that until the women are ready to come forward and say something,  Tim is innocent in my eyes.  Others can say what they will.

As to your financial queries,  nobody knows where the money went, except George, Betty, and perhaps his family.

Bob Anderson tried to figure out where the money was going, after George was excommunicated.  They knew how much was coming in over the years, and tried to piece together where it went.  They didn't know where it went but Bob told me,

"Your numbers are not far off.  They are pretty much on target."  We know that plenty of money is unaccounted for.  You can't have unaccounted for money if you know where it went.  If we knew where it went, it would be "accounted" for.

I am the author of the RickRoss articles.  I am the "member of 17 years."  I find it rather ironic that you, an anonymous person, are using my writings to defend George and Tim!  I think I know my way around what I wrote better than you do.  Not to mention what I know that I am not telling.  

A year or two ago, plenty of people were casting baseless accusations against me, and no one questioned their credibility.  I commend you for questioning mine.  You should have questioned George's as well.  Nevertheless,  I have satisfied most people as to the accuracy of my statements, and I did so using my own name.

I invite you to continue to question and disagree with everything, however I think you should at least let us know who you are in doing so.  Biblically, we all have a right to face our accusers.

Also, if you know where the money is, please tell us.

Brent

[Oscar]

Quote from the Rick Ross site:

"Part of our worship is our offering to The Lord. There is a box on the back table for that purpose. All the money is used for the work of The Lord here and abroad."
“The wording of the above is almost identical across the country. So, needs are never mentioned in specific terms, but it is quite clear that tithes are accepted. This practice is really rather refreshing when compared to tele-evangelists and others who belong to the church of the open wallet.”

I think that what you are revealing here is a lack of understanding about how healthy churches handle money. When you say, "“The wording of the above is almost identical across the country. So, needs are never mentioned in specific terms, but it is quite clear that tithes are accepted", I think you are revealing a lack of experience in healthy churches.

Healthy churches are very open about money.  When there are pressing needs, God's people are told about it.  When the need is met, they tell them that too.

Anyone who wishes to find out where the money goes can pick up a copy of the annual financial statments or budget from the church office.  The only "secret" information is salaries of church employees, and that figure is always there, just lumped together so as not to reveal the exact amount of an individual's income.  

Even then, it is not exactly rocket science to come up with a pretty good idea of somenone's income of you care to.

This way, they "provide for things honest in the sight of all men".
Quite a difference from the secrecy practiced by GG, his clones, and others like them.

Thomas Maddux

[vernecarty]

The men to whom this question should be directed are the men in leadership in Fullerton. They were all aware that all receipts went directly to George's house. Wayne Matthews lived in the Midwest and was not a part of the Fullerton leadership. Your query is unfair.
Verne

We want the truth do we not? Wayne has been touted as a man of God over all the others in George's inner circle. He is the one who travelled not only with George but was in such close association that George sent him alone to Africa. Very few got in that close. If anyone, it would be he who is in the know. He is the one we can trust here. The question is simple. Did George steal money from his followers?

Question number 2. Tim fondled sisters. If Tim did this, what are the names of these individuals? Not difficult.

For the administrator of this bb to allow such unsubstantiated accusations to be publically displayed is a disgrace. Brent, I am really questioning your integrity here.

Not quite correct. The trips Wane made alone to Africa were not under the auspices of George Geftakys. The stature of Wayne among the Nigerians does not require the sanction of any person or organiztion to persue  his medical missionary work there. Wayne Matthews is a "Son of the Soil"...
You really ought to be more careful Bob...

Verne "Black Mamba" Carty

[editor]

The hallmark of this bb is us against them. Lets have truth revealed not intimidation to silence. I am not defending George and Tim nor am I judging them. I want the truth!! Not accusations.

The first paper I wrote, which the leadership refused to read, was all about Us Vs. Them.  I know the drill.  The fact that "they" are able to speak here, without censorship, is proof against your assesment of the BB.  Nevertheless, you are free to view things as you wish.

As for the truth,  I could not agree with you more.  Lots of truth was revealed since November, 2002.  I did the best I could with what I wrote.  All of it can be corroborated by at least 2 or 3 witnesses.  I wrote quite a bit about the money.  Have you read these things?

I am not addressing you with this next comment, "bob,"

One of the most amazing things in all of this is that almost without exception, the people who have the most negative things to say about the website and BB are the ones who have never read any of the articles, or have only read parts of a few.  There are those who claim to want the truth, but won't listen to anything true.  The only truth they want is truth that says that they were OK.  I understand this propensity, but at its core is fear.

Now I am addressing you, "bob,"

If you want the truth, do what I did.  Look for it.  Ask where the money went.  Do the math.  Ask,  "Why was there no public record?  Why would a church hide the money?  What could be the motivation behind something like this?"

Call the people that knew George in the past.  Talk to his family.  Talk to Rachel.  Talk to Judy.

Ask yourself,  "If George lied about David and Judy, is it possible he could have lied about other things?"  

Talk to the women who George abused.  Ask yourself,  "Does a man of God do this to people?"

Ask yourself,  "How is it that a large, 10,000 sq. ft house is built in a lovely city in Mexico, paid for by the "work."  (I paid for a large chunk of this house.)  It had a nice library and study for George.  How is it that this is now owned by a person,  Marta Velasco, and that she didn't have to pay for it?  It was supposed to be for the "work," namely George.  This house was paid for primarily through people gifts, ABOVE AND BEYOND the tithes.  

Where is the money?  What kind of man does the things that George did?  Why was he excommunicated?

Here is another thought:

You wouldn't be stuck with a prideful arrogant person like me if those who were responsible hadn't allowed themselves to be Eunuchs for Geftakys's kingdom.  Think of that.

What did you do, "bob?"  How much time have you spent trying to find out the truth?  I could have used your help,  where were you?

It is easy to call into question everything that another does, especially from the place of anonymity.  It is quite another to get up and do something about it, in the light.

Please continue to say whatever you wish, and don't feel you have to answer my rhetorical questions.  If I have said something wrong, please tell me what it is so that I may correct it.  I too, would like to find out the truth.  Are you willing to help?

I am not saying how the assembly handled money is correct. I was foolish enough to put cash into a box and not require an accounting. I was foolish and I am embarassed by it. I am not now going to come back and say George stole it from me.

Quite right.  He didn't steal it from me, I gave it to "The work."  George misrepresented where the money was going, after I gave it as unto the Lord.  I don't think that's right.  It is stealing, but from Someone Else.  How do you see it?

Brent