AssemblyBoard
April 19, 2024, 11:12:04 am *
The board has been closed to new content. It is available as a searchable archive only. This information will remain available indefinitely.

I can be reached at brian@tucker.name

For a repository of informational articles and current information on The Assembly, see http://www.geftakysassembly.com
 
   Home   Search  
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6
  Print  
Author Topic: He who is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at George Geftakys  (Read 49344 times)
BenJapheth
Guest
« Reply #60 on: March 09, 2003, 06:01:47 am »

Hello Everyone!

A little news...Wonderful stuff is happening in Omaha!
[/b]

Mark Sjogren and Mike Zach are pursuing reconciliation with everyone and anyone that they have sinned against, they are repenting, seeking forgiveness - and, that includes my wife Ann who is one of the nine Miller children (Pat Mathews, Nancy Lehmkuhl, Becky Cohen, Chris Sjogren, Mike Miller).  The Miller family was split up by the Assembly 25 years ago.  Ann received gracious letters from both Mark and Mike.  And, yes, she does forgive them!  

Reconciliation is happening with Jon Legran and his family and wonderful things are happening between my father-in-law Chuck Miller and Mike Zach as well as Mark Sjogren.

I have heard from a witness that Mike Zach asked John Malone forgive him!  Face-to-face!  Praise God!  I do believe in miracles.  But more!  John Malone said that he forgives Mike Zach!  Miracles!

God Bless You Mike Zach!  Mark Sjogren I see the Lord alive and working in you!  A Tsumani of grace!

Our family is realizing a dream come true!  Tragedy has turned into rejoicing!

It's grace people - Amazing Grace! ...This is Christianity!  This is Jesus at work.

Chuck Vanasse
chuck@vanant.com

Logged
editor
Guest
« Reply #61 on: March 09, 2003, 06:02:50 am »

Hello everyone

I am going to post a couple of articles on Brethren (PB) Introspection on the GA.com website.  I think, in light of some of the recent posts, that you will be interested in knowing what some of the PB have to say about their predicament.  (The plain fact that their "pattern," is more representative of a dying vine than the True Vine.)

Brent
Logged
BenJapheth
Guest
« Reply #62 on: March 09, 2003, 08:20:04 am »

Brent,

"Plymouth Brethren" ...Don't knock it, until you've tried it...
[/b]

When you say "their pattern" are you referring to a "Plymouth Brethren" pattern or the assembly pattern...?

Just wondering...

I met my wife Ann in an "abusive" brethren type church..."Great Commission International."  It's also in Enron's book, chapter 11, same chapter as the GG's Assembly - their George was a man named Jim McCotter.  They were slightly less abusive, where the assembly emphasized "the gathering and the Lord's supper...GG's heavenly system, et.al." GCI emphasized evangelism and "Go therefore!"  It was Jesus + The Great Commission.

After we left GCI, for years we wandered through lots of traditional churches, yet deeply desired to get back to our simple home meetings from GCI.  And, only in the last two years have we come back to a "PB" type of orientation.  And, hey, we love it!  The home church is not only good for China, and for the Third World - It's good for us believers right here in America, too!  

My life is no longer Jesus + Church = Righteousness...No, today we simply meet in a way that looks like a Brethren way. Why? It's an easy way to meet Jesus - to know Him when we gather.  The home and simplicity in meeting lends itself to not being anonymous, for the use of gifts, and an easy environment for edification.  And, more!  Real discipleship and organic growth easily happens around a Acts 2:42 meeting - with the home as its true nerve center.

Is this the ONLY way? No! No! No!  However, is it a terrific context for meeting, worshipping and learning? - Absolutely!  Why, does it work so well...Cause it's simple, elegant, straightforward, and efficient.  I think it's a great way to "imitate" the Apostle Paul.

We have a home church, no paid pastors, no morgage, shared ministry responsibility...However, a church unlike you EVER had in the assembly - we have lots of liberty - Just the structure of following/waiting on the Holy Spirit as our guide.  You know what I love is the periodic, dignified silence...Quiet and waiting on the Spirit's unction.  The Lord is wonderful - He prepares a different and unique feast for us everytime we meet.  The ladies bring the food, the men bring the Word, everyone sings, fellowships, breaks bread and prays (no door keepers).  Sometimes our meetings are 90 minutes, sometimes it's five hours!  The Lord always has something that surprises us!  Like the wind we don't know where it comes from or where it is going...

So, what am I saying?  We need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water.  I think the tendency is that when we have had a bad experience we rush to discard everything that was ever familiar to us in our abuse. Actually I can't blame anyone who's come out of the assembly for this...However, I want to caution everyone - You may find yourself wandering around for perhaps years in looking for the right church.  

However, as a guy who left a nice context of "the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ" because of some immature and abusive leadership and then wandered for 17 years via many forms of "church" -  Willow Creek type churches, EPC, Evangelical Free, Seeker Friendly churches, Baptist churches, various pentocostal, AOG churches, independent churches...You name it!  Seventeen years of a spiritual schmorgasbord.

What can I say...It is WONDERFUL! to be gathering in a unpretentious, simple manner, again...Without the abuse!

I don't think you assembly folks ever saw this side of the PB form of gathering.  The two times I visited your gatherings it struck me so much like my old Roman Catholic masses.  My wife agrees, since she's done both - was a Catholic and was a part of the assembly and participated with me in my wanderings...I kept waiting for the Latin and the incense...So, religious.  The assembly was PB with a double-dousing of Galatianism, wrapped in formalism with a bow of hypocrisy and yucky judgement for good-looks..

What I had hoped for was to get back to a simple gathering...What my wife and I had missed before in the 70s and early 80s in our past abusive church experience was trying to "add" things to Jesus and that's when things got warped.  And, people, this is not limited to PB type churches!  A Brethren orientation does indeed lend itself to serious errors.  This is true since people generally take the Bible seriously in such intimate gatherings that the PBs are famous for...Don't let this fact take you by surprise - commitment has many slippery downsides.  Commitment and youth are a dangerous brew.  But, don't "dis" simplicity and commitment.  That's a woeful mistake.

"PB like" gatherings shouldn't be dysfunctional...George Mueller, Jim Elliott, and one of Christianity's ultimate examples Anthony Norris Groves (my particular hero of faith)...all were associated with Plymouth Brethren forms of gathering and church.  By the Way, A.N. Groves in the 1830s was the earliest protaganist of the very first Brethren principles (he said he was just trying to imitate Paul since the scriptures encouraged him to do so).  It should also be noted that A.N. Groves fellowshipped with, gathered with, worshipped with and labored with every type of believer. Christ in a man was Groves basis of fellowship and unity with a man; in contrast to a sectarian distance from a man based on the man's missing principles or immaturity.

If anyone emails me, I will happily direct them to the publisher of the Biography of A.N. Groves by G.H. Lang - Especially for anyone who would like to understand the man who was the spiritual father and example for George Mueller - A.N. Groves was actually his brother-in-law.

Also, the Assembly had a heritage from the darkside of Brethrenism....The Exclusives.  And, George Geftakys was the worse Exclusive PB I have ever seen!  J.N. Darby, the famous, and brilliant, 19th century heretic was the original Exclusive...The father of Exclusives.

The "Open" Brethren were oriented totally different. Totally! They were as lovely as the Exclusives were ugly.  Mueller was of the Open Brethren...The heritage of the Open PBs is quite glorious.  The overwhelming majority of 19th Century missionaries were Open Plymouth Brethren.  Hudson Taylor was heavily influenced by the Brethren's "Let God provide" mission philosophy and he himself spent many years gathering with the PBs around the globe.  

As all you ex-assembly folk begin your new pilgrimages to find a new church home...Remember your final destination may be right under your nose.

God Bless and fair travels!

Chuck Vanasse
chuck@vanant.com
« Last Edit: March 09, 2003, 10:42:55 am by :: Chuck Vanasse :: » Logged
al Hartman
Guest


Email
« Reply #63 on: March 09, 2003, 09:02:47 am »


      Today, right here on this page, has been my most encouraging experience on this BB to date!!!

     Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

al


Logged
editor
Guest
« Reply #64 on: March 09, 2003, 09:58:46 am »

Dear Chuck

You know, dear bro, that I am not throwing the baby out in the wash.  Thanks for clearing that up for everyone else, I can see how you might read that in to my last post.

I agree with you, as the Tr0ckmans are doing the same thing you so eloquently mention below, except that we call it home church, and we do it as part of Calvary Chapel SLO.  What is funny, is that about half the group does not attend Calvay Chapel, but several other churches.  There are a few that come where our home group is their only Christian fellowship.

Anyway,  I agree with your last post, wholeheartedly.  The only thing I might add is that most ex-assembly folk should NOT ruch into that, until they are well over Geftakysism.  New Wine yes, Old Wineskin, NO!!!

Check the main page of GA.com for a "Brethren" article.

Brent
Logged
BenJapheth
Guest
« Reply #65 on: March 09, 2003, 10:15:30 am »

Anyway,  I agree with your last post, wholeheartedly.  The only thing I might add is that most ex-assembly folk should NOT ruch into that, until they are well over Geftakysism.  New Wine yes, Old Wineskin, NO!!!
Brent

I agree!  Folks need to walk around the block and see what there is to see...Being free is a wonderful thing.  My 17 year sojourn did me a lot of good.  Most ex-assembly people need to get under some healthy-teaching for awhile and to be a "passive-observer" ...Enjoy receiving some ministry with no pressure to perform ...Or, even show-up!  Cool, huh?

You know, it wouldn't be a bad idea for the ex-assembly folks to take a few Sundays off.

Grace can be pretty great!

« Last Edit: March 09, 2003, 10:47:19 am by :: Chuck Vanasse :: » Logged
Oscar
Guest


Email
« Reply #66 on: March 10, 2003, 10:56:37 am »

Chuck,

You wrote"

"Also, the Assembly had a heritage from the darkside of Brethrenism....The Exclusives.  And, George Geftakys was the worse Exclusive PB I have ever seen!  J.N. Darby, the famous, and brilliant, 19th century heretic was the original Exclusive...The father of Exclusives."


Chuck, you are mistaken here.  I used to fellowship at Shadow Hills Bible Chapel and knew the brothers at Canoga Park Bible Chapel.  These were PB assemblies in the "circle of fellowship" that included Grace Bible Chapel in Fullerton where GG fellowshipped for many years.  GG used to itinerate among these assemblies.  

The author Dave Hunt fellowshipped at the Canoga Park assembly until he became a Charismatic and tried to share it among the PB's.  They squeezed him out, but many followed him.  Some from Shadow Hills did the same.

These were definitely Open assemblies.  They were in the group that publishes "Letters of Interest", a news magazine of the Open Brethren.

Once I visited an Exclusive assembly.  It was REALLY wierd.
Their "Gospel Hall" was square, except for a sort of notch in one side with about 6 chairs in it.  This was the "tabernacle of the unlearned".  

We were told to sit there, not in words, they just pointed to those seats when we came in.  Needless to say we weren't allowed to touch the bread or wine.

They never spoke to us.  Not a word.  Just pointed.  After the meeting we went outside where they were and stood for a few minutes.  They talked to each other, but not to us.

I wonder why their numbers are dwindling?

Anyway, the practices at the GG assemblies were more or less similar to the Open meetings.  But no doubt about it, GG took the idea of exclusiveness to new heights.  It was his version though.

One really important reason the PB's have declined so much is that it has become a very middle class movement.  In its early days most of the leaders were upper class Englishmen, Scots, and Northern Irish.  They had excellent British Public school educations.  They could read and translate Latin and Greek by the time they finished High School.  Many were wealthy and could pursue educational goals that qualified them to become real scholars.  That is why they made such a mark in the early days.

There was a very high quality of leadership in the PB's in those days.  This is only one factor, but it was a very important one.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

Logged
Eulaha L. Long
Guest


Email
« Reply #67 on: March 11, 2003, 01:02:36 am »

Luke,

You asked if I have a life?  Yes I do.  I don't live for this bulletin board.  I live for God.  It seems to me that you are far more wrapped up in this bulletin board than I am.  You seem to enjoy starting arguments on the same bulletin board that you condemn.  Again I ask you: why don't you follow your own advice?  Don't use this bb any longer if it stumbles you.  Don't worry about our lives and how we should be spending them.  You need to worry about your own life.  I think you must be a lonely individual who needs attention.
Logged
Luke Robinson
Guest


Email
« Reply #68 on: March 11, 2003, 05:10:17 am »

Luke,

You asked if I have a life?  Yes I do.  I don't live for this bulletin board.  I live for God.  It seems to me that you are far more wrapped up in this bulletin board than I am.  You seem to enjoy starting arguments on the same bulletin board that you condemn.  Again I ask you: why don't you follow your own advice?  Don't use this bb any longer if it stumbles you.  Don't worry about our lives and how we should be spending them.  You need to worry about your own life.  I think you must be a lonely individual who needs attention.

Dear Eulaha,

First off, this website does not stumble me.  But according to you, it DOES stumble me.  Well, to each his(or her) own.

Secondly, I am not worrying about you or anyone else on this website.  I believe that you are a fully capable human being who can make decisions on your own with Godly wisdom.

Well, in no way do I mean to start arguments.  I have asked people to think a little bit more before jumping to conclusions about the private lives of individuals.  If an argument gets started by that, it is not my problem.  It is those who will not ponder what I have to say, but only brush me off as a "young laddie" or call me arrogant and ignorant, without ever meeting me before in their entire lives.  

So we are talking about worry here.  I see.  I see that most people can't stop worrying how the assembly has been run by a supposedly Jim Jones wannabe(which I disagree with).   Grin  And I see that many people that have left, are constantly worrying themselves and berating those that are still involved in a local assembly, telling them that they are utterly decieved, and they need to break up faster than New Kids on the Block.   Grin  Look, as I said before, I can see that you are a responsible individual who can make her own decisions by God's wisdom.  Well, so can these people.  I have faith that God will lead them.

I don't condemn this forum.  It is an inanimate object with no mind of its own.  I don't condemn the people that write on this forum.  Most of them are writing with caring hearts.  I don't condemn anything.  But I am giving advice.  Measure twice, saw once.  Don't jump to conclusions about private lives of individuals until you have the facts straight.  And then, proper, Godly judgment can ensue.  

Do I really sound like a lonely individual who needs attention?   Grin

Well, here come the character assassinations, again.   Grin

Please, Ms. L, you do not know me.  And there is little knowledge that you could obtain from words on a website.  You do not see the face behind the words.  And you definetly do not see the heart.  

I am not lonely.  And if I needed attention, I would go somewhere else.  But I do have a point to make(see previous paragraph), so please try and understand me sometimes.  I will do the same for you.  God Bless.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson  

Logged
brian
Guest


Email
« Reply #69 on: March 11, 2003, 05:37:52 am »

Quote
And I see that many people that have left, are constantly worrying themselves and berating those that are still involved in a local assembly, telling them that they are utterly decieved, and they need to break up faster than New Kids on the Block.

this is an accurate observation. why do you think this phenomena occurs?
Logged
Oscar
Guest


Email
« Reply #70 on: March 11, 2003, 09:50:45 am »

Howdy folks,

Here is a thought that occurred to me many years ago when I was thinking my way out of Brethrenism.

These groups have as their Big Idea the belief that they are supposed do exactly what the New Testament saints did, and that those who don't follow this principle are not fully faithful.  Going beyond what is seen in the Bible is "human innovation".

One problem is that without the human innovations of Christian colleges and publishing houses their groups couldn't exist.

How many modern Christians can read koine Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic?  Christian colleges are just about the only places you can learn koine Greek.  Classics programs at secular universities generally teach the Attic Greek.

If no one received this training, how would we have Bible translations and study books to use?

So when we were following the misunderstood command to "come ye out from among them", we had to keep going back to get help!

Thomas Maddux
Logged
4Him
Guest


Email
« Reply #71 on: March 11, 2003, 10:10:12 am »

Luke,

... I think you must be a lonely individual who needs attention.

Dear Eulaha,
...Do I really sound like a lonely individual who needs attention?   Grin
...I am not lonely.
Take my word for it, Luke is not lonely.  He definitely enjoys debate and he is certifiably funny.  You should see his (and some of the other teens from St. Louis) video productions.  Definitely a riot.  Grin Roll Eyes

Now that doesn't mean I agree with all of his points.  I think he has spoken from a lack of real understanding of how deeply many have been wounded in the past.  He, like many of the current crop of under 21 (or so) year olds have grown up with somewhat less of the overbearing pressure/abuse that was such a characteristic in the past.  I think relative liberty came about in recent years as certain ones, especially in certain assemblies in the Midwest, began to distance themselves from George's authoritarianism.  I guess I would recommend then, that he and others with his perspective maybe privately contact some of those who they believe are "jumping to conclusions about the private lives of individuals."  That's what I did with one particular individual, and tho' I still don't agree with his manner, I was brought to see in a whole new way.

Tim Southe
Logged
BenJapheth
Guest
« Reply #72 on: March 11, 2003, 10:29:37 am »



sticks, burrs and weeds...some yucky stuff out there...
[/b]


Howdy folks,

Here is a thought that occurred to me many years ago when I was thinking my way out of Brethrenism.

These groups have as their Big Idea the belief that they are supposed do exactly what the New Testament saints did, and that those who don't follow this principle are not fully faithful.  Going beyond what is seen in the Bible is "human innovation".

One problem is that without the human innovations of Christian colleges and publishing houses their groups couldn't exist.

How many modern Christians can read koine Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic?  Christian colleges are just about the only places you can learn koine Greek.  Classics programs at secular universities generally teach the Attic Greek.

If no one received this training, how would we have Bible translations and study books to use?

So when we were following the misunderstood command to "come ye out from among them", we had to keep going back to get help!

Thomas Maddux


simply looking for a few good sheep
[/b]

I think one of the big lessons is to glean from where you can.  The edges of the fields are noted for their burrs and sticks.  Ecclesiastes says, "The wise man grasps one thing and will not let go of another, for he who fears God will come forth with both of them."  Hold to the good and run from the bad....Yep, all this applies to the Brethren phenomena.  Commitment is dangerous.  Knowledge is dangerous...PBs excell in both.  Dangerous folk, they are.

Sometimes a little apathy and ignorance ain't so bad...but that's dangerous, too.  If you say, "Oh, I get it" - then you don't.  There is no formula.  There is no Jesus + Church as the answer.  Jesus is the answer period.  He would rather work through the ignorant and foolish who look to him, than folks who reduce godliness to an algorythmn like many PBs do....but, careful now - not so fast - it's not so easy.  You dismiss the Brethren example at your own peril.

It's Jesus, Jesus, Jesus...with our whole mind and if we can learn Greek, Hebrew, and memorize the book of Psalms - Super!  But in reality - The Lord Jesus is simply looking for a few good sheep.

Rejoice In The Lord Always!

Chuck Vanasse
chuck@vanant.com
« Last Edit: March 11, 2003, 10:30:05 am by :: Chuck Vanasse :: » Logged
Luke Robinson
Guest


Email
« Reply #73 on: March 11, 2003, 07:52:02 pm »

Dear Tim Souther,

Thank you for answering my posts.  Sorry, I didn't really think of writing people personally about this issue, but I will remember to do so in the future.

And I am sincerely sorry if I sound indifferent in my posts.  By God's grace, I will never try to overlook someone's suffering again.

Yes, I think the St. Louis assembly somewhat broke away from the strictness of George a while ago, but there were still a lot of pressure points that would wear on people, causing them to want to leave.  But God is good.  And He is doing a great work.  Thanks again, Mr. Souther.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson
Logged
wolverine
Guest


Email
« Reply #74 on: March 11, 2003, 08:07:10 pm »

Well, well, well...what do we have here???  I haven't been here for a while but it looks like you're all enjoying yourselves...

Luke may not like to start arguments, but I'm not going to lie...I LOVE starting arguments...I could do that all day...but I'll let Luke fight his own battle here...bye for now...

VerneFan....riiiiiiiight...

P.S.  I think this was my most innocent post-to-date...don't I get some POSITIVE attitude points for that?Huh
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!