Nazis and the Nuremberg Trials

[Oscar]

Tom,

Now there is a typical Assembly response. Let's belittle the reasonings and emotions of the "offender", make them feel guilty, inadequate and stupid.

In actuality, dear brother, it is you who takes the analogy too far. It is not a fallacy to compare any situation to another where similarities are found even if there are serious degrees of differences.

I took a class one time where we discussed totalitarianism and Nazism provided many of the examples. It was during this class that I began to have a deeper understanding of the Geftakys cult.

You owe your brother in Christ an apology for the thoughtless (and incorrect, I might add) way you publicly corrected him.

Feel free to take as many shots at me as you like. You will not find me in the least bit fragile or susceptible to humiliation, etc as I have already survived it.

Scott

Reminding people that we are to obey Christ is "a typical assembly response"?  

I am not trying to control anyone.  I just paraphrased what Christ said.  It applies to you, and to me.  

Who's taking any shots?
If we are not where we need to be emotionally, we need to get there.  "Be ye angry, and sin not".

I had 18 years of assembly treatment.  Much of it by the Big Man himself.  I know a little about hurt, loss of time, exhaustion, financial hardship while others live in luxury, career sidetracking, effects on my children, embarrassment,
depression, false accusations, injustice, rejection, whispered character assassination, and on and on.

I don't see where any of these release me from
obedience to my savior.
We are all responsible to God for our moral choices, not to leaders.


God bless,
Tom Maddux

[Scott McCumber]

Tom,

Sorry, but no juice. I never argued your doctrine. Just your sarcasm and attitude.

And whatever you may have suffered at the hands of the GM, does not excuse that. If anything, it should make you a tender shepherd.  

What is reproach/correction/discipline without love? Control/piety/arrogance/George Geftakys.

[Sebastian Andrew]

Hi Arthur:

I hope this doesn't sound trite, but maybe a few bios on other Christian's dealings/struggles with forgiveness might help. A couple that come to mind are Corrie ten Boom and Pastor Richard Wurmbrand. There are plenty of others. Perhaps you know about ten Boom. After released from concentration camp she began a ministry and even travelled back to where she didn't ever want to return-Germany. During a meeting there she recognized in the congregation assembled a woman, a former concentration camp warden,  who had been especially cruel to her (Corrie's) sister, who died in that camp. Corrie had a great struggle, but finally went over and extended her hand to the  Deutch woman. The former warden had repented.
"I was in Argentina. One day I was asked to visit some patients in a hospital. There had been a terrible polio epidemic. For the first time in my life I saw people lying in iron lungs. The tragedy so overcame me that I could hardly bear it. A nurse asked me: "'will you speak with that Jewish man there?"' He was not in an iron lung, but lay on a bed that went up and down. When his legs went up, his midriff pushed against his lungs and he could breathe out. When his legs went down, he could breathe in. He was fed by a little tube in his nose. He could not speak but he could write. When I looked at him I said in despair: "'Oh Lord, I cannot do this. Please let me go somewhere else, so that I can cry in a little corner...." I could speak to this man. I showed him an embroidery, that on one side only shows a tangle of threads, but on the other side a beautiful crown. I said "'when I see you lying on this bed I think of this embroidery. There has been a time in my life when it seemed like the tangled side of this crown. I saw no pattern, no beauty, no harmony. I was in prison, where my sister died before my eyes....Later on I saw God's side of the pattern. Because I have had to go through deep suffering in that prison, I was able to comfort people afterwards, because I could tell them: "'Jesus' light is stronger than the deepest darkness...."'...And so I told him the happy message of Jesus death and life. The man took a piece of paper and wrote: ""I see already the beautiful side of the embroidery of my life.
The next day I went again....She (the nurse) told me that he beckoned her, when I had left, and then wrote on his little writing pad: For the first time in my life I HAVE PRAYED IN jESUS' NAME.'" Then he closed his eyes and died.....And God had used me for that when I was not able to do it. Yes, God's strength is demonstrated in our weakness."
God isn't going to answer every one of our questions as to why us, but He will give us perspective. It takes a little time, which takes a little patience.

[Peacefulg]

Hi Sebastian, that is an awesome example.

G

[Scott McCumber]

Wow. A word given in love is so much more powerful and encouraging than anything else. What a diference!

Scott

[Oscar]

Tom,

Sorry, but no juice. I never argued your doctrine. Just your sarcasm and attitude.

And whatever you may have suffered at the hands of the GM, does not excuse that. If anything, it should make you a tender shepherd.  

What is reproach/correction/discipline without love? Control/piety/arrogance/George Geftakys.

Scott and Arrthur,

Sarcasm and attitude,
Brethren, no sarcasm was intended by me, nor did I mean to communicate such in my post.
I simply disagree with the analogy Arthur made.  
I don't believe it is valid.  
My point in listing my "offenses" was that I have just as much reason to be angry at GG and his supporters as anyone else.
That however, does not justify any sin on my part.
What do you think the meaning of the parable in Matthew 18:23-35 is?

God bless,
Tom Maddux

[Scott McCumber]

Tom,

First of all I want to mention that I asked my parents to refresh my memory of you. They said, with some affection, that you always seemed to be in trouble with George and the leadership for questioning authority, doctrine, etc.

So for that (and of course because you are a brother in Christ) you have my respect. And I'm guessing we are both agreeing on the doctrine but not the method.

It is easy to say I forgive. I should forgive. I am willing to forgive. It is harder to know true forgiveness in your heart.

In fact, I believe that without Christ working it out in our hearts, it is often impossible.

Otherwise, you are relying on your own strength. A work of the flesh. By gum, I will forgive!

Instead of striving to make yourself feel forgiveness, I suggested that one should instead trust Christ to bring about that forgiveness. And in some cases of a particularly painful offense it may take Christ to bring you to a point where even the willingness is there. But ultimately you cannot do it in the flesh and if you could what is the point?

And Tom, I was pointing out that Arthur seemed to be very hurt. I was more concerned with your delivery than anything else.

Love, Bro! It's all about the love of Christ that wins people to him!

Scott

[Kimberley Tobin]

To All:

As one of the most vocal women on this website, I feel I owe an apology to the members on this BB and the guests who have read my writings.  Though I do not apologize for the content of my writings (i.e. the veracity), I want to ask your forgiveness for offending anyone with my anger or if I said anything in a harsh or bitter tone.  

Through a dear brother, who has ministered to me as a shepherd of the Lord’s people should, I have come to see that, though I might speak the truth, if I have not love (as in 1Corinthians 13) many will not hear me.  Strangely enough, in two instances where I spoke with this dear brother (with great tears I might add), immediately following our conversations I received a call from a brother who is dear and close to my family and heart.  This brother and his wife and family are still with the Assembly, though prayerfully considering the unfolding events.  He and I have struggled in the past with how we communicate with one another.  To put it another way, we would both be great on the debate team.  But relationships are not about debate.  They are about love.  These two conversations, born out of love with a willingness to listen and speak softly, produced more fruit than all my previous conversations with an arguing mentality.

Let me say that this is a process.  There are those who have been abused that are in the stage of anger and that is ok.  We are not here to preach at one another.  We are here to make a difference in one another’s lives.  That is what I have experienced on the BB.  The love of the Lord’s people, many of whom I had never corresponded with in the past but simply knew by name.  I hope you will accept my apology and pray for our relationships through this BB that it would be that of love.

1Corinthians 13:1-13

verse 13 “And now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.”

Kimberley

[Arthur]

Arthur,

When you say, "I don't know if it is in me to forgive", it seems to me that you have forgotten a few things.

Paraphrasing
How often shall I forgive my brother?  Unto 70 times 7.  

I can do all things through Christ  which strengtheneth me.

It seems to me that question is not one of ability to forgive, but willingness to forgive

Assembly=Nazi Germany???,  George Geftakys=Hitler?
Logically-there is a fallacy of false analogy here.

When I read your post, I was surprised.  
Assembly consequence-wash two cars, pull some weeds.
Nazi Germany consequence-worked/starved to death in Auschwitz.

Assembly control-talk to leading brothers.
Nazi Germany control-Gestapo interrogates you with rubber hose and electric shock.

Forgive me dear brother, but this line of reasoning is silly.

I doubt that they did any more to you than they did to most of us.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

Yes, Tom, I know.  I know that Jesus said to forgive your brother seventy times seven, and that he said if we do not forgive men their tresspasses, then our Father will not forgive our tresspasses, and he said blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy, and that I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me.  
Of course I meant willingness; I had hoped that all would understand and I think most did.  I was hoping that you might bear with me but for a moment as I bear my soul and express how I was feeling over the matter.  I was hoping you'd understand that this is a painful experience and not one that we come across often so as to readily know how to handle it.  I was hoping that you might understand how I felt, and be patient with me as I talk it over with my friends.  I'm sorry you didn't understand.  And please allow me to add that I believe God is not through with me or others, I am hopeful that he will help us with this all, forgiving, healing, restoration--it will take time.
As for the analogy.  Yes, the leaders in the assembly did not beat us with rods, cut off our thumbs, or electricute us.  Does abuse have to be physical for it to hurt?
These men have committed the crime of spiritual abuse.  I believe the analogy holds true on that level.  And some have experienced physical abuse as well.

Now I have something to say to you Tom Maddux.  You wrote something that reminded me of something and now I remember what it was.  You said "When I read your post, I was surprised."  Those were the exact same words that those who abused us used right before they began the abuse.  And you make an insenstive remark, "I doubt that they did any more to you than they did to most of us."  I do not claim that I have been abused more than others.  I was sharing my thoughts with those that have been in the same experiences, my friends here on the website.  The only people who may not understand or may have a problem with what I said....are the perpetrators.
Tom have you repented of the part that you played in carrying on the abuse while you were a leader?   I don't say this to be unkind, and if I'm wrong, forgive me.  But please think about it.  

Arthur

[Oscar]

Arthur,

When you say, "I don't know if it is in me to forgive", it seems to me that you have forgotten a few things.

Paraphrasing
How often shall I forgive my brother?  Unto 70 times 7.  

I can do all things through Christ  which strengtheneth me.

It seems to me that question is not one of ability to forgive, but willingness to forgive

Assembly=Nazi Germany???,  George Geftakys=Hitler?
Logically-there is a fallacy of false analogy here.

When I read your post, I was surprised.  
Assembly consequence-wash two cars, pull some weeds.
Nazi Germany consequence-worked/starved to death in Auschwitz.

Assembly control-talk to leading brothers.
Nazi Germany control-Gestapo interrogates you with rubber hose and electric shock.

Forgive me dear brother, but this line of reasoning is silly.

I doubt that they did any more to you than they did to most of us.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

Yes, Tom, I know.  I know that Jesus said to forgive your brother seventy times seven, and that he said if we do not forgive men their tresspasses, then our Father will not forgive our tresspasses, and he said blesses are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy, and that I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me.  
Of course I meant willingness; I had hoped that all would understand and I think most did.  I was hoping that you might bear with me but for a moment as I bear my soul and express how I was feeling over the matter.  I was hoping you'd understand that this is a painful experience and not one that we come across often so as to readily know how to handle it.  I was hoping that you might understand how I felt, and be patient with me as I talk it over with my friends.  I'm sorry you didn't understand.  And please allow me to add that I believe God is not through with me or others, I am hopeful that he will help us with this all, forgiving, healing, restoration--it will take time.
As for the analogy.  Yes, the leaders in the assembly did not beat us with rods, cut off our thumbs, or electricute us.  Does abuse have to be physical for it to hurt?
These men have committed the crime of spiritual abuse.  I believe the analogy holds true on that level.  And some have experienced physical abuse as well.

Now I have something to say to you Tom Maddux.  You wrote something that reminded me of something and now I remember what it was.  You said "When I read your post, I was surprised."  Those were the exact same words that those who abused us used right before they began the abuse.  And you make an insenstive remark, "I doubt that they did any more to you than they did to most of us."  I do not claim that I have been abused more than others.  I was sharing my thoughts with those that have been in the same experiences, my friends here on the website.  The only people who may not understand or may have a problem with what I said....are the perpetrators.
Tom have you repented of the part that you played in carrying on the abuse while you were a leader?    

Arthur,
Regarding, have I repented of the part that I played.  Yes.

Regarding, "when I read your post I was surprised".  Arthur, I speak English.  Someone said "I was surprised" to you in the past.  I am supposed to know that?

Regarding, "and you make an insensitive remark"  Arthur, I have no desire to offend you.  But as to what a person you have never met will find insensitive???

Regarding, "I was hoping you might understand how I felt"  Believe me Arthur, I have a pretty good idea.  George Geftakys and his loyal assistants hammered on me for years.  I frequently told them they were wrong, or shouldn't do certain things. Once I preached against one of GG's wierd teachings in the afternoon ministry, (In worship we are meeting God's needs).  Believe me he never forgave that!  He was so mad.  How could he get up and preach that God has needs and we can meet them.    But, he paid me out.  My "spirit of independency" was a matter of frequent comment.  And I experienced all the things I listed as well.
Be the time I left, I was exhausted in mind and body, sick of heart, and depressed.
I talked plenty about my experiences with GG and his assembly.
That's ok.  But giving way to sin in my own heart is not ok.  Nor in yours, or anyone elses.  

Arthur, I do not mean to be harsh or insensitive.  But I do mean to let Christ rule in my heart.  Forgiveness, at first, is not a feeling.  It is an act of obedience to Christ.

God bless,
Thomas Maddux

[Arthur]

Ok Tom, I see where you are coming from.  There were times that I stood up to the leaders and, yes, it was unpleasant.  I respect you for that.  I agree, ideally, it's not ok to give way to sin, not even when faced with a hard time.  And yes, Sebastian, I have read Tortured for Christ by Wormbrand, and am familar with the story of Corrie Ten Boom.  I think I spent a little too much time focusing on the sufferings that people went through.  It's depressing (unless you see the pattern on the other side, eh Sebastian, thanks for that story
But let me ask you something, Tom.  Have you never despaired or given up when going through the hard times?  
You tell me that forgiveness is an act of obedience, but have you always obeyed God in this matter?
One of the first things I learned when I came out of the group is that the leaders were, among other things, phonies.  Example, George says, "I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me."  Sure, when everyone serves you hand and foot and pays for everything.  
I learned about something called reality.  It isn't all cut and dry as the assembly made it to be.  Always rejoicing, always overcoming, "Not just any old way but victoriously!", etc.  That's fantasyland.
Does Christ always rule in your heart?  If he doesn't sometimes, why is that?
Again, I don't mean to be harsh and I'm kinda playing the d.a. here.  See, I had this little conversation with myself after I left the assembly.  The assembly says, no you can't have any problems, if you do, you must be sinning because you're not believing in God.  Anything that is not of faith is sin, etc. etc. etc.  But the love of Christ is patient, kind, bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.  And yes, love rejoices in the truth.

Love would not say, "You should prevail no matter what because the Bible says, 'I can do all things through Christ that strenghtens me.' If you do not overcome, then you've got a problem."  

No, rather, love says, "Ah, dear little one, I see you are in pain, is there any way I can help?"  And love would say at the proper time, "You know you need to forgive them.  Remember how God had mercy on you, remember how much he loves you?  Won't you show that love and forgiveness to others?  I know you will do what's right, in due time.  And we'll see how God will bring about healing and restoration in this painful and difficult time for you."

Do you have children, Tom?  If your little boy scrapes his knee and begins to cry, do you tell him he needs to quit his whining, or do you hold him in your arms and comfort him and tend to his wound?

Arthur

[Rachel]

Arthur,

You are right in that things have been taken that can not be restored.  Especially in the case of kids born into the group.  No matter what happens no one will ever give me back my childhood, or my hearing, or the opportunities that every child should have and I could have had.  There are two things to realize here.  The first is for both victims and abusers alike.  The line between the two blurs as you see the humanity of all involved.

1) For those who choose to be involved.  Seek to find out what allowed you to be decieved.  I believe all in the assembly were there because it worked for them on some level.  It may be as simple as wanting to be part of a sincere and more committed group then anyone else.  The us-them attitude.  As Paul H. said, an inner ring.  That desire for exclusiveness can become the focus.  It is an immature desire, reminescent of school yard cliches.  Or it may have been something more, a desire for power.  It may be a need for someone else to control you life and make the scary decisions for you or at least validate your choices.  This is also an trait of immaturity, not yet posessing the tools to make wise decisions and therefore insecure and unsure about your decisions.  Whatever it was find out what it was/is so it will not make you vaulnerable to disception again.  This is how you can take, even as a victim of abuse, responsiblity for yourself.

2) For those born into the group and victimized, seek to understand the reasons your parents got involved, as seen in #1.  Break the cycle.  Do not live out the same tragedy in your own life, with your own kids.

3) Forgive, not because it can be made right but for yourself.  So that you do not have to spend the rest of your life in the "victim" mentality of being owed, or trying to make others pay for the pain and loss.  Forgive so you can get on with your life.  Forgiveness, is choosing to not to hold to the account of someone a wrong.  It does not get rid of the pain, which you will have to work through on your own, and it does not make the past abuse and losses go away but it frees the victim.

Make sure in your own life that you own your mistakes.  Don't do to others what has been done to you.  Detirmine to live your life with integrity.  Be authentic, no show, no facade, what they see is what they get.  As my husband says, if you have not done anything wrong you have no reason to fear.  Living honestly is very freeing.

Again, this is to the victims of abuse and does not free abusers from the responsiblity to make things right to the best of their abilities, within the limitations of life and time, nor does it free them from the responsiblity to humbly repent of the wrongs done.  An indicator that true repentance has occured will be not only a willingess to hear the truth in the future, but a fostering of an enviorment in which a victim feels safe to come forward.  An enviorment in which the victim does not feel like they will be attacked for their story.  This will be especially difficult after the decades of the suppression of truth or refusal to hear a victim and instead punish them with discipline, disbelief, or even slander.  I think there is still many victims in the shadows, still not really feeling safe to come forward and many stories yet to be told.

[Arthur]

Rachel, excellent points.  As far as those of us who willfully joined, there are other possibilities than a school-yard desire to be "in" or a desire for power.  One was also mentioned in that inner ring essay, and that is we liked to be there.   These were our friends, it was an enjoyable place to be, great times of fun and fellowship, sincerely loving and learning about God.  We wanted to share the love of Christ with everyone, no exclusivity "us-them" there.  It was wonderful and I'd do it again.  
But then the tare matured and produced it's poison, the wolf took off his sheepskin and attacked.  That's when we left to enjoy what we did in other places with other people.

[lemonlime]

Everyone pretty much covered everything... so I will try not to repeat everything they've posted.


I know it's hard to forgive, especially when you feel like your heart has been torn out of your chest and stomped on for 20 years with no relief. These heal in time, but they leave scars and the scars are the reminder to us of the times we've been wronged. That's how I look at it. As far as forgiveness... it's the hardest thing God asks us to do, aside from love. Forgiveness may not come quickly. probably won't come quickly. But God can give you strength to forgive. This doesnt mean you should just forget about it. You don't just magically lose all memory of it. It doesn't work that way. But forgiveness is the first step on the road to healing. I'm praying for you brother.