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tenderhearted
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« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2005, 06:38:30 pm »

I've never been bit by a dog, Lenore, but statistics, like the ones I posted already, don't lie.

Pit Bulls' killer instinct is not a result of their being mistreated. Mistreatment is not a genetically reproduced event.

People live with Bobcats, and other wild cats, too. Those animals will always be "wild" and cannot be allowed to live as a "tame" cat. They require a certain behavior of the owners, and owners of them cannot demand the same kind of behavior of non-owners.

In other words: If you own an animal with killer instincts, you cannot demand that others live with the animal. It has to be in a controlled environment - LIKE A CAGE.
 
 




Hi MoonFlower:  I can understand where you are coming from. Yes if you breed a dog or any animal to be aggressive & vicious it should be kept away from innocents.

But have you ever studied how the different breeds came about, or how bigger breeds were made into the toys that are around now.

It because people have genetically alert them, by breeding particular characteristics that they wanted or didnt want into the animal.  It takes several generation to get the characteristics to get the particular goal in mind.

But that is human breeding these animals to get what they want.

Pit Bull are not a natural breed of dog.  They were breed by adding and subtracting different characteristics of existing breeds of dog in the beginning.
Most breeds of dogs are products of specific breeding techniques until they are recognized as the breeds they are today.

Pit Bull is a genetically created breed. Why do you think some of them are gentle and some of them are deadly killers.  Because of generational specific characteristic breeding.
That is why some become Guard Dogs, Some become Fighter Dog,but with responsible breeding they have become gentle animals. But unfortunately, since we dont know which is which, you have to ask the owner if it is friendly enough to pet.

To compare a Dog with a wild animal who has not been genetically altered down through the generations, is not really a fair comparsion. Those wild animals who have not had human contact from is reacting from instinct, from what God has given them to survive.
Like the farm animals who have been domesticated, like the cow, where a farmer can milk, herd, care for those animals, because that animal has learn to trust this farmer. Yet the farmer knows that a cow can turn dangerous in certain circumstances.
Barn cats who have never has human contact to make them family pets are wild and untameable , and will scratch the skin right off you. Yet Cats are great pets, gentle, loving and independent.

Like humans who are vicious, dangerous, out of control, these animals need to be cage and put away because they are a danger to society. But you dont paint all humans with the same brush .
So like the PitBull and other dogs where have been breed and under human care, shouldnt be painted by the same brush.
I think each animal whatever the breed should be judged on its own merit, not because it belongs to a specific breed. Its that profiling and sterotyping, even though it is only a dog. But there can be human ratification in all of this.  Like a person who rides a motor cycle, and wears leather is a Hell's Angel criminal. That is profiling and sterotyping all people who rides a motorcycle and wears leather.

Dont forget there are feral animals, including dogs, these are the most dangerous of all. Because they have either been abandoned or ran away, and have hooked up with other dogs to form a pack, and have gone back to the wild nature, to survive. A dog who doesnt have a pack and on the loose, have no chain of command in that pack to take order, ie. the human pack family, where the Alpha leader is responsible for the care and direction behaviour within that pack.
A dog who wants and is the Alpha Leader of its own pack, can be a very dangerous animal, because they become territorial and will exercise that power of the Alpha.

Well that enough for now, I thank you for the conversation, and the topic.

I bide you Happy Lord's Day. I hope you will have a wonderful time in the HOuse of the Lord, and am to glean from the message that God has for you today. May the seeds of his word, be a time of growth in your life.

Lenore
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moonflower2
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« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2005, 07:08:19 pm »



Hi MoonFlower:  I can understand where you are coming from. Yes if you breed a dog or any animal to be aggressive & vicious it should be kept away from innocents.

But have you ever studied how the different breeds came about, or how bigger breeds were made into the toys that are around now.

It because people have genetically alert them, by breeding particular characteristics that they wanted or didnt want into the animal.  It takes several generation to get the characteristics to get the particular goal in mind.

But that is human breeding these animals to get what they want.

Pit Bull are not a natural breed of dog.  They were breed by adding and subtracting different characteristics of existing breeds of dog in the beginning.
Most breeds of dogs are products of specific breeding techniques until they are recognized as the breeds they are today.

Pit Bull is a genetically created breed. Why do you think some of them are gentle and some of them are deadly killers.  Because of generational specific characteristic breeding.
That is why some become Guard Dogs, Some become Fighter Dog,but with responsible breeding they have become gentle animals. But unfortunately, since we dont know which is which, you have to ask the owner if it is friendly enough to pet.

To compare a Dog with a wild animal who has not been genetically altered down through the generations, is not really a fair comparsion. Those wild animals who have not had human contact from is reacting from instinct, from what God has given them to survive.
Like the farm animals who have been domesticated, like the cow, where a farmer can milk, herd, care for those animals, because that animal has learn to trust this farmer. Yet the farmer knows that a cow can turn dangerous in certain circumstances.
Barn cats who have never has human contact to make them family pets are wild and untameable , and will scratch the skin right off you. Yet Cats are great pets, gentle, loving and independent.
Lets get real here: Cats don't kill people.
Quote

Like humans who are vicious, dangerous, out of control, these animals need to be cage and put away because they are a danger to society. But you dont paint all humans with the same brush .
So like the PitBull and other dogs where have been breed and under human care, shouldnt be painted by the same brush.
I think each animal whatever the breed should be judged on its own merit, not because it belongs to a specific breed. Its that profiling and sterotyping, even though it is only a dog. But there can be human ratification in all of this.  Like a person who rides a motor cycle, and wears leather is a Hell's Angel criminal. That is profiling and sterotyping all people who rides a motorcycle and wears leather.

Dont forget there are feral animals, including dogs, these are the most dangerous of all. Because they have either been abandoned or ran away, and have hooked up with other dogs to form a pack, and have gone back to the wild nature, to survive. A dog who doesnt have a pack and on the loose, have no chain of command in that pack to take order, ie. the human pack family, where the Alpha leader is responsible for the care and direction behaviour within that pack.
A dog who wants and is the Alpha Leader of its own pack, can be a very dangerous animal, because they become territorial and will exercise that power of the Alpha.

Well that enough for now, I thank you for the conversation, and the topic.

I bide you Happy Lord's Day. I hope you will have a wonderful time in the HOuse of the Lord, and am to glean from the message that God has for you today. May the seeds of his word, be a time of growth in your life.
And also with you.
Quote
Lenore

Why were particular breeds picked by sickos to breed for the killer instinct? Because they already had it in their genes, down thru the centuries.

You convinced me, Lenore. God created dogs, man created the Pit Bull.

I am stereotyping: CAGE THEM ALL. ..........Better yet: BAG 'EM
« Last Edit: September 04, 2005, 08:29:53 pm by moonflower » Logged
tenderhearted
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« Reply #32 on: September 05, 2005, 02:12:01 am »

 Cheesy Grin Cheesy

Hi Moon okay is it just the Pitbulls you want caged and bagged, or is it all dogs.

Ha's.......

Christie my oldest daughter loves a Pug. Ever since she saw one when she was about 9 years old. She always wanted a pug. They are cute.

Sara loves a pug, but she collected items that resembles border collies. She has quite a collection.

I love Boxers, & Shelties.

When I worked at the Animal Hospital, Dr. and wife owned a Boxer/Great Dane name Lamont.
Sara was about 4 years old when I went to work there. Lamont was a large dog.
Tan. and gentle as a lamb.  Sara is a bit hyper, so she was getting under Lamont skin one day I was visiting in the yard, which was at the time across the street from where I lived.
Lamont had enough of Sara picking on him. Lamont was 10 years old at the time.
Lamont took his great big head and slapped her on the forehead.
Sara cried. Lamont bite me.  There was just a bruise from where the head hit.

Sara birthday is in December 17th, since I am on 26th, I always made sure Sara had a party because I know what it is like to get one present for two purposes.
Sara had to insist that Lamont come to her party too. Mrs. I. dressed Lamont up in a bright ribbon around his neck. And a present in his month,  Lamont even had hot dog, and ice cream and cake, and he went home with a loot bag.
Lamont attended 4 birthday parties.  I may have had 10 kids in the house too. With Lamont there was enough dog for everyone.
I have pictures of Lamont and all the kids, even sitting by the table with the kids while they had there meal.

When the Dr. and Mrs. I. went on vacation I was responsible for looking after Lamont.
When Lamont left us when he was 14 years old, six months later I gave Missy to Sara.
How Missy came about was there was an ad in the paper, that the human society was giving away this puppy. Now Sara was bugging me for a dog for a couple of years.
It was about 30 minute walk away. So Sara was 8 years old, and we went for a walk. Sara had no idea that we were getting a puppy.  When we arrived , the puppy was there, Sara picked up to pet, then I said do you want the puppy to take home. Well Sara cried all the way home with the puppy in her arms. By the time we got home, Sara's tears bath the dog. I took her to Dr. I. for a check up.  That was 10 years ago last February. Missy was 9 weeks old at the time.

Missy will probably be my one and only dog in my adult life.

Do you have any puppy, dog stories to share.

Lenore
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moonflower2
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« Reply #33 on: September 05, 2005, 03:23:25 am »

I grew up with cats and a dog and fish and gerbils. I have a Maine Coon now. It is as they describe it: a dog in cat's clothing. It is beautiful.
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hopon
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« Reply #34 on: September 05, 2005, 06:55:28 am »

I have a Maine Coon, too. The only problem is with their long hair, especially in the summer.

Hopon
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hopon
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« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2005, 07:13:20 am »

Lenore did you think of just putting paper in an area of the house for the dog? Do older dogs need that much exercise anymore?
You probably had the dog checked out already but does the dog have a urinary tract infection that would make it pee all over? I had an older cat that started doing that on the rugs in the house after she saw me taking some of her pool of urine in the basement to get tested at the vet because she was losing all her hair. She had kidney disease and some other problem that seemed like Parkinsons. Her head would start shaking and she would find me and come and sit by me for comfort. I wish I had not put her to sleep.

Hopon

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tenderhearted
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« Reply #36 on: September 06, 2005, 01:30:02 am »

Lenore did you think of just putting paper in an area of the house for the dog? Do older dogs need that much exercise anymore?
You probably had the dog checked out already but does the dog have a urinary tract infection that would make it pee all over? I had an older cat that started doing that on the rugs in the house after she saw me taking some of her pool of urine in the basement to get tested at the vet because she was losing all her hair. She had kidney disease and some other problem that seemed like Parkinsons. Her head would start shaking and she would find me and come and sit by me for comfort. I wish I had not put her to sleep.

Hopon


Yes I have had her checked, She is has hip problems, which is common to larger breeds. No she wouldnt take up that much room. If she was younger I would not hestiate to take to the apartment because she is a totally indoor dog.

I also had a female cat that did that, despite of changing the litter frequently.
Although she was fixed, she was going through a type of animal menopausal symptom.
I end up putting her on a hormonal type of medication. But that was 23 years ago. Patches which was a calcio long hair cat, even pink in her calico pattern, left our family about 20 years ago. 

Because I am going into a senior type apartment building, even though it breaks my heart, best thing that would be fair for Missy, is to put her down.

Lenore


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al Hartman
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« Reply #37 on: September 07, 2005, 01:21:34 am »


Lets get real here: Cats don't kill people.

...depends on the size of the cat.  If Sylvester was as big as the Lion King, he'd be trying to eat Granny instead of Tweety! Grin Grin

Quote
Why were particular breeds picked by sickos to breed for the killer instinct? Because they already had it in their genes, down thru the centuries.
You convinced me, Lenore. God created dogs, man created the Pit Bull.

There is no documentation, but it's reasonable to suppose that only one breed of dog boarded the ark.  Men have worked hard ever since to develop "specialties" into their dogs, resulting in canines bred just to hunt one type of animal, e.g. wolfhounds, 'coonhounds, elkhounds, etc.  (The dacshund was bred to follow badgers into their burrows & bring them out.)  There are also work dogs such as Huskies, St. Bernards, etc.  Men bred these traits into them by selection. 

The "killer instinct" that led to the bull terrier becoming known as the "pit bull" was an instinct in the "sickos" you mention, who then developed it into the dogs.  Any dog can be trained to attack-- the difficulty then is training it not to attack.


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moonflower2
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« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2005, 01:45:57 am »

...depends on the size of the cat.  If Sylvester was as big as the Lion King, he'd be trying to eat Granny instead of Tweety! Grin Grin

There is no documentation, but it's reasonable to suppose that only one breed of dog boarded the ark.  Men have worked hard ever since to develop "specialties" into their dogs, resulting in canines bred just to hunt one type of animal, e.g. wolfhounds, 'coonhounds, elkhounds, etc.  (The dacshund was bred to follow badgers into their burrows & bring them out.)  There are also work dogs such as Huskies, St. Bernards, etc.  Men bred these traits into them by selection. 

The "killer instinct" that led to the bull terrier becoming known as the "pit bull" was an instinct in the "sickos" you mention, who then developed it into the dogs.  Any dog can be trained to attack-- the difficulty then is training it not to attack.


Wierd Al,

You need to do a little research to discover that this particular breed was picked for desired characteristics already present in it. Not all dogs can be trained to kill. All breeds are different.

BTW, what color eyes did Noah have?

Moonflower
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al Hartman
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« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2005, 12:17:55 pm »



Wierd Al,

You need to do a little research to discover that this particular breed was picked for desired characteristics already present in it.

Reliable research doesn't go back far enough for this.  How did those characteristics get to be "already present?"  My point, although facetiously spoken, was that they were traits "desired," and therefore developed, by breeders.

Quote
Not all dogs can be trained to kill.


Upon what research do you base this supposition?

Quote
All breeds are different.

Indeed they are.  A breed is a "breed" because it has been very selectively "bred."  By selective breeding and training, any breed can be developed into an attack animal.  It is unlikely that a chihuahua could ever rip the jugular from a full-grown man, but the breed can most certainly be trained to attempt it.

Quote
BTW, what color eyes did Noah have?

I regret that I am unable to answer this with any degree of certainty-- whenever I tried to make eye-contact, the man always squinted. Grin Grin Grin

W.a. Wink
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moonflower2
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« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2005, 04:54:06 pm »


Reliable research doesn't go back far enough for this.  How did those characteristics get to be "already present?"  My point, although facetiously spoken, was that they were traits "desired," and therefore developed, by breeders.
 
Yes, yes, the traits were desired by sickos and therefore were developed by them, but Bull Terriers were picked for this reason because they already showed. Have you read any history of these sweet little puppies?
Quote
Upon what research do you base this supposition?
Upon what research do you base your supposition?
Quote
Indeed they are.  A breed is a "breed" because it has been very selectively "bred."  By selective breeding and training, any breed can be developed into an attack animal.  It is unlikely that a chihuahua could ever rip the jugular from a full-grown man, but the breed can most certainly be trained to attempt it.
Right. Again, your research?
Quote
I regret that I am unable to answer this with any degree of certainty-- whenever I tried to make eye-contact, the man always squinted. Grin Grin Grin
I knew it!! He probably mumbled and walked away, too.  Wink  You should have talked to his outgoing wife who told me.
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W.a. Wink
Moonflower
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al Hartman
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« Reply #41 on: September 08, 2005, 12:13:45 am »



My Dear Moonie,

While you have not persuaded me, you have succeeded in wearing me down.  I haven't the time or the energy to dredge up documentation, and it would no doubt be inconclusive to one of such strong opinions as yours.  So I withdraw from the field-- the battle is yours.  You may commence with the slaughter of the pitbulls.  (Let me know if you need a good method of removing bloodstains from your workclothes Wink)

al
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Scruffy
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« Reply #42 on: September 08, 2005, 03:04:09 am »

Cats rule.
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GDG
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« Reply #43 on: September 08, 2005, 04:21:12 am »

Right on, Scruffy!!!!!  Cats do rule.  Just ask my 15 year old feline, Killer (no kidding, that's his name Wink)

Gay
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moonflower2
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« Reply #44 on: September 08, 2005, 07:03:51 am »


My Dear Moonie,

While you have not persuaded me, you have succeeded in wearing me down.  I haven't the time or the energy to dredge up documentation, and it would no doubt be inconclusive to one of such strong opinions as yours.  So I withdraw from the field-- the battle is yours.  You may commence with the slaughter of the pitbulls.  (Let me know if you need a good method of removing bloodstains from your workclothes Wink)

al

Ephraim,

Are you trying to sell me an Amway product??
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