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Author Topic: Another Abused Wife Comes Out of the Closet  (Read 54150 times)
brian
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« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2003, 08:39:36 pm »

Instead of "In God We Trust" I suggest we alter the motto on our money to read, "I'm Tellin'."

Here's my:

North American Regional Anthem*[/color]
sung to your favorite tune

are you really making the claim that physical abuse should not be reported to the authorities, based on the idea that the resulting inroads on the freedom of the general population (of abusers!) is a greater evil? your extravagant style of humor and exaggerated phrasing really cloud your meaning, especially for people who don't find this topic humorous.

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Now, someone reading casually here would think that we all have the obligation to report all suspicions that we have about everyone to the police, or the brown shirt lesbian social workers who are persistently trying to enter our homes.

anyone who extracted that interpretation from this thread would not be someone who had enough mental capacity to use a computer in the first place, so i think our freedoms are safe for another day. btw, when was the last time a brown-shirted social worker tried to enter your house, and how could you tell she was a lesbian? perhaps she was merely ups.

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The fact is that the state only recruits those it licenses to be neighborhood spies: doctors, lawyers, school teachers, etc.

you're paranoid.

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I don't think it needs to be said that it's immoral to brutalize a wife

i think it needs to be more than said. it needs to be enforced.

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Just to balance the record, I personally know a brother whose wife maliciously and falsely accused him of evil deeds to her and his children, including the improper use of physical force. The police violently chased the brother from his home. His wife fled the state with the children, renamed them, and he now been alienated from them for over 25 years.

He had absolutely no legal recourse against her for any of this.

this is also a tragedy, and i am sorry your friend had to go through this terrible ordeal. however, this is an extremely unique situation that occurs far less than true cries for help, which in turn occurs far less than unreported abuse. realize that an abused woman or child is far less likely to say something to anyone about it than they are to be silent or even work actively to cover it up. so by the time she is talking, you can be a solid 95% sure that she is telling you far less than actually occured, and she is very desparate. the absolute worst possible thing she could hear at that point is "it is your fault, keep quiet, its your duty to take this punishment without complaint, and i don't believe you anyway." that someone like betty could repeatedly hand down this advice for so many years was a chilling and horrifying discovery for me.

susan: you are clearly a very strong and intelligent woman. you have done a very brave thing by putting your story here, and i applaud you for it. it is so wonderful that you were able to have your marriage healed. i am so impressed by the balance in what you recounted between respectful tenderness towards your husband and determination to tell the truth that might set others free, and i applaud you for it.

brian

ps john, your lack of any response to susan's story, yet strong reaction to the suggestion that abuse should be reported to authorities, is quite tellin'.
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brian
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« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2003, 08:42:41 pm »

An improper reaction to sin is just another sin.

could you please clarify this extremely general statement? i don't see its relevence in the context of this thread. you must have been responding to something you read, but i can't figure out exactly what.
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Rachel
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« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2003, 10:11:47 pm »


Now, someone reading casually here would think that we all have the obligation to report all suspicions that we have about everyone to the police, or the brown shirt lesbian social workers who are persistently trying to enter our homes.

Wow do you ever sound like my father David, the arrogance, the name calling, the paranoia.  Like my husband says, if you have done nothing wrong, you should have nothing to worry about.  Fear is usually born of a guilty conscience.

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The fact is that the state only recruits those it licenses to be neighborhood spies: doctors, lawyers, school teachers, etc.

Aw, the conspiracy theory strikes again.  Maybe it is just that the state intends to require those that they give recognition to, as being influencial and as being authorities in people's minds and lives, take the responsiblity to be ethical and not cover up immoral actions like WIFE AND CHILD BEATING.  They wanted the people who others turn to for advice and help to be required to make sure real help came to the victims, and if they didn't the state wanted there to be legal recourse for compensation for the victims in the form of a lawsuit.  Of course, a lawsuit can never make right the damage of the abuse.  The law recognizes that and so gives the only thing it can, money.  What a thought!

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Just to balance the record, I personally know a brother whose wife maliciously and falsely accused him of evil deeds to her and his children, including the improper use of physical force. The police violently chased the brother from his home. His wife fled the state with the children, renamed them, and he now been alienated from them for over 25 years.

He had absolutely no legal recourse against her for any of this.

If this is true, it is to bad and there will always be ones who take advantage of and use the flaws in the system.  That does not make the system or the police, the bad guys, it would make the liar the bad guy.  There was obviously a need for those kinds of laws.  Probably prompted by situations like my family's in which, those who we went to for help made the situation worse by covering up the abuse.  What if my mother had died as a result of the abuse?  All of those who knew of the ongoing abuse and did nothing would be accessories to the fact.  Do you know John how many women die each year as a result of domestic violence, how many children?  Do you think the cops should be kept out of it?  That is what we were told.  "Let "God's government" handle it", "a Christian doesn't take another to court".  Well, what happened to the protection from God's government.  A pathetic, "You can't do that again." Then send us all home, with an abuser now angry at being caught.  Recipe for disaster.  For to long in history, it has been unbalanced on the side of the abuser.  Maybe if you care so much, work on legislation that will better protect the guy being lied against while still protecting the abused instead of making up stupid ditties and puting them on a board where people are really spilling out their hearts about real hurts that happened to them and discussing responsiblities.  
« Last Edit: January 30, 2003, 10:18:54 pm by Rachel » Logged
brian
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« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2003, 12:38:58 am »

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Sure I can. One sin often leads to another sin.

ah, another extremely general observation. i don't suppose you have a point behind these random observations that might in some remote way tie into your reason for posting them in this thread? do you think someone posting in this thread is sinning as a result of someone else's sin? why are you being deliberately opaque?

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That's because you are a pretty young guy, Brian, and lack experience.

well, thats very sweet of you, john, i never knew you thought of me as pretty. is that also relevant in some way? is it a clue?  Huh
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Susan McCarthy
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« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2003, 03:01:26 am »

Many thanks to everyone who has posted a compassionate and insightful response to my story.  I never thought I would feel comfortable in bringing this to the light- but I am very thankful that 13 years later I have experienced healing in telling the truth.  I didn't even know this was still a "live" issue for me until I read Judy's account.  This healng in my heart was an unexpected gift!  Thank you for providing a forum for honest dialogue on this website.

I am still a widow under God's excellent watch and care, and doing well!  My daughters witnessed the abuse and have a few scattered memories, but as a family we have had many opportunities as they've become teenagers (Hannah is now 20, Rachel-18 and Abigail-15) to talk about relationships, dating, healthy boundaries, etc.  We've put their father's behavior in perspective, and everything is working out for good according to God's plan.  We attend Calvary Chapel in Santa Barbara.

I do have a couple of points to add....

First, the rumors that Tom died because he left fellowship are grievous to me because the morning of his death, he was having his quiet time, going to work as usual, and treating the children and I very lovingly.  Was everything just "fixed" when we left fellowship?  No, it was not.  But we were on our way to recovery as a family.  God does take evil and turn it into good for His glory!

So, if you are an abused sister reading this, take courage and report your situation! There are compassionate brothers and sisters ready to help you in the healing process.  There are legal actions that can protect you.  Email me privately if you wish... you do not have to go through this alone, thinking if you were only worthy enough, your spouse would treat you better.  I love what some of these wonderful married brothers are writing about accountability and their own indignation at the
poor treatment of women in the assembly.

The fear of judgment for leaving fellowship and the use of Tom's death in promoting this is deplorable to me.  It was a subtle rumor, but one that struck at the hearts of every family in fellowship at the time.  We had no life insurance and had a new mortgage.  The help the LB offered was for me to move back in with the brethren- who would guide me in raising my children as a single parent.  No thank you!

Second, I've struggled with a very strong fear that if I ever publically denounced the assembly's oppressive practices, or brought to light the spousal abuse as an ex-member, my story would be minimized, my character questioned, and no one would believe me.  At the very least, I would be criticized for making Tom look bad, and that was something I did not want to do, for my kids' sakes, especially.  At the very extreme, I would not only lose my inheritance for leaving fellowship and taking "the easy way out," I would be punished by God in this lifetime.  It was a horrible mental agony to wrestle with whether or not his death and my new circumstances were a result of our disobedience to God via the LBs.  (Despite our peace from God about leaving fellowship.) This is baggage that no one, whether they are sick or dying, should have to bear.

In retrospect, I wish I had spoken up about all these things earlier, and if I had been aware of Judy's situation (and maybe others), I would have responded immediately and not hesitated to come to their aid.  

It is very sad that lives that had become so enmeshed, living together, spending long hours in meetings together, spending every holiday together, could not be more transparent.  We were hiding dark secrets behind our "Are you rejoicing today?" masks.  The church is for sick sinners and Christ is our doctor and healer.  When will Christians stop killing their wounded and show the true testimony of grace and mercy towards the victimized??  Only then will the world find us honest, genuine, sincere, and an attractive choice among many alternatives.  

I am praising God for all of you who love the Lord, who are either in the assembly or not and are seeking God's direction for your lives, marriages and families.  GOD IS FAITHFUL!!
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Susan McCarthy
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« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2003, 10:47:35 am »

Rachel,

I sent you and your mom a PM.  
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wmathews
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« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2003, 09:51:14 pm »

First of all, I want to 'weigh in' in concordance with John Malone's comments on the societal response to the issue of domestic violence.  Let us not mistake that a secular society, a world without Christ, will provide a thoroughly secular and oppressive response to the problem, resulting in the erosion and loss of God-given rights. As Pres. Bush said today, people do not have rights and freedoms because America says so, but because God ordains 'certain inalienable' rights to human beings.  In a society dealing with everything from terrorism to violence, the secular answer is the erosion of freedoms.  Folks, John has demonstrated most of us suffer from serious ignorance of both Scripture and our own Constitution. By law, as a health care provider, I am a 'mandated reporter', but i am first a Christian who owes my primary allegiance to God, not Caesar.  We are too filled with the fables of modern thinking in our outlook.  Yes, I abhor violence to women and children, but I also abhor the biased conclusions of a court system which can be bought by the rich, which little esteems fatherhood.  I know something of John Malone's experience and perspective, and it is a simplistic error to characterize him as a narrow misogynist and thus write his conclusions off as invalid. Would be happy to dialog more on this...
Wayne
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wmathews
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« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2003, 11:11:28 pm »


Good reading from a balanced biblical perspective:

Headship with a Heart | How biblical patriarchy actually prevents abuse. by Steven Tracy
Feb. issue of Christianity Today
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Rachel
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« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2003, 02:50:40 am »

Part 3

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"Rachel,

If criminal behavior was occurring, then you need to explain why you haven't sworn out a criminal complaint with the relevant County Attorney in the State of California."

The woman's mind is made in such a way that, your earlier comments and paranoia where among many of the reasons we have not previously done any court proceedings other then the restraining order.  There is a thinking so pounded into a victim's brain of self doubt, thinking no one will believe you or even care, and an intense fear of the abuser on more then a physical level, that it takes time not to be completely paralyzed with fear at the intimidating prospect of facing your abuser in court.  The thought that maybe the abuser will get away with it, again, makes a victim physically ill.  Also, my mother was constantly told to just "trust God" to make the situation right and not to "take another Christian to court".  We were taught that as women we must submit to our husbands in all things and that meant always obeying.  My father was not about to tell us to go to the police where he may have had real accountability.    

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"This is one of the reasons sheriff's carry guns. (Romans 13:1)

In fact, if what you allege is true, that is all any church leader could do about the behavior, because church discipline is NOT about civil criminal behavior.

So how is it that anyone, in the context you are now unveiling, is any more remiss than you or your mom? "

The problem is there can be the temptation for the church leadership (and this was the case in my situation) to not report any of the abuse and to prevent the woman from doing so in order to maintain a "pure" image.  That is why there is a law that church leadership must report physical abuse within 48 hours.  The law wants to make sure that the violence is stopped even if the victim is afraid to go to an impersonal authority like the police.  The law wants the church leadership to take this seriously and realize the very real danger in those situations.  

Mr. Malone, maybe because you have never been the victim of this kind of long standing abuse, or maybe because you are a not a woman, you cannot understand all of the levels that this sort of abuse damages.  When you say the sorts of things that you said above, it hurts so badly.  I held my tongue for so long because of the kind of fear you have of the system.  Unless you can guarantee that you will be there to stop the abuse don't prevent the only real help out there for those victims in the form of the flawed protective services and the police, by using your words to reinforce a suppressing teaching.  Don't reinforce the thinking that it is some how the victim's fault when they are abused.  You said in your own post, "Once again, I have experience tempering my conclusions," and my own experience tempers my conclusions.  When I come on the bb and read your words it is very upsetting and painful.  It brings back in a rush, all the fears, teachings, and pain; I had to overcome to write my paper in the first place to expose the problems in the assemblies.  It is so upsetting that it affects the rest of my day.  That is how deep the pain run, which is reawaken by your words.  If I am confident compared to most of the people who have suffered abuses, I can only imagine the women that could further expose the abuses of the assembly yet are further intimidated by your responses.  I hope you will keep in mind what is the point and intended effect of the things you write and the goal you have in doing so.  My goal and hope is to expose the abuses and the problems that they stem from in the assembly. What is your goal and point?  Also realize that after reading your post, I have to try to go on with my day and it is hard.  I hope you will be considerate of where some of us are coming from.  

Sincerely,
Rachel Steepleton

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Rachel
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« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2003, 02:51:40 am »

Part 2

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"I am going to guess you have NEVER been to court, except POSSIBLY traffic court. Court is a place where liars swear to God, in Whom they do not believe, that they will tell the truth. Many of them have long forgotten HOW to tell the truth. Every day,all around the country, men are falsely being accused, under oath, of all manner of "abuse," which, by the way, is itself such a vague term that it is in need of strict definition.

That's just the facts, Jack. Ask ANYONE who has been in court rooms, especially for domestic squabbles."

Couldn't your God make sure that a false witness does not falsely convict you?  A lot of people in the system do believe in God and respect their oath.  Not everyone or even "Most” of them are false witnesses.  I have been in court for a "domestic squabble", and went as a victim telling the truth.  I was scared to death; I was so scared of having to prove something that had happened in a closed room with no one else there.  I was so scared that I might not have met my burden of proof.  After all, no one else I had ever told, the leadership who I viewed as God's government, had ever cared enough to do anything.  I did not even have reason to believe they would come as a witness on my behalf to testify to my injuries.  I knew that the man who was willing to defy God and abuse me would be more then willing to lie, and he claimed to fear God.  Most people who will abuse another will have no qualms about lying.  I was so scared and I was only telling a part of all that had happened in my home.  It was that fear that was in the minds of most the women who sat beside me that day.  It was a fear that had kept some of them silent for years.  By the time I as a victim was desperate enough to do something I was so afraid, and felt so worthless and had been blamed for the abuse so many times by the abuser.  I could not see how anyone would ever believe me or want to help me.  This is the case for most victims.  Usually, as the victim, you are only there because you have no other option.  I know I was.  That is what it was in my case and in a numerous others I have heard or seen.  The worst cases of abuse are the quietest ones.


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"Statistics show that MOST women who get hit mouth off to men in ways that, if men did it to one another, they would realize it's going to come to blows. That doesn't make anything right, but that is the anatomy of "domestic violence." "

What statistics are those?  That exact reason was the reason my dad and Betty and George used to place the blame for the abuse on my mother.  The abuser always blames the abuse on the actions of the victim over and over, until the victim begins to believe that it really is their fault and that if they could just be better it would all be ok.  It is a sick reasoning and is the reason why so much abuse goes un-reported and un-dealt with.  

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"As for what Betty said to whom, and when, I do not yet find myself qualified to judge that in a way that can help anyone. "

What Betty said, can be read in my paper and my mother's.  She said it to both of us.  That should be enough for you under the biblical standard of two or three witnesses.  If a third is needed, my husband was also there when Betty told it to me but he has allowed me to tell the story since it is primarily my story.

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"Susan, I do not think it was very smart of you to name your late husband like this in this forum. What good does it do? You could have told that story in the third person, and spared some of us. It would be different if your husband were alive and an offender, but as it stands, I do not understand your purpose."

No matter how we tell our story, someone always thinks it is wrong.  If Susan had told her story in the third person, the question would have been raised about authenticity, now she tells it in the first person and you come down on her because of her husband being dead.  I think she was very equitable and honored her husband in how she told her story.  She also told her story in a way that allowed her to get her point across.  A point you seem to have missed.  Her point was that her husband, a " fun-loving, compassionate and ethical man" was changed by the influence of the assembly's (or lodge's) ideas and teachings that promote an attitude that propagates the abuse of women.  Her point was not to just tell of the abuse itself but to point out that this is a pattern of behavior in that ministry that shows a deeper problem.  Both Susan and I wish to encourage women and others who suffered abuse, physical, emotional, sexual, and spiritual, to come forward to clearly show that it is not just a problem of an isolated few but the abuse is symptomatic of a larger problem that has corrupted and has eaten away all but the shell of that ministry.

End of part 2
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Rachel
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« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2003, 02:52:33 am »

Part 1

Mr. Malone,

I am writing you privately and then will post this publicly.  I do not intend to respond to you any longer in the future if you are completely unentreatable regarding what I am about to say.

There is a psychology and a line of thinking regarding the physical abuse of vulnerable people, such as woman and children, that perpetuates that abuse and further binds the victims.  I speak from first hand experience as to how this works.

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"The lesbian social workers aren't. I think it was the large tobacco chaw in her mouth, and the comfortable way she spit it out on the front porch that gave her away. I live in Nebraska. The state has attempted to illegally enter my home, including to check my kids schoolwork."

If there are the occasional mistakes that does not out weigh the need for help to the victims in life threatening situations.  Usually there is no investigation without real concerns repeated over a period of time.  People are really much more likely not to want to get involved.  Here are some facts:

Prevalence of Domestic Violence

Estimates range from 960,000 incidents of violence against a current or former spouse, boyfriend, or girlfriend per year1 to three million women who are physically abused by their husband or boyfriend per year.2
Around the world, at least one in every three women has been beaten, coerced into sex or otherwise abused during her lifetime.3
Nearly one-third of American women (31 percent) report being physically or sexually abused by a husband or boyfriend at some point in their lives, according to a 1998 Commonwealth Fund survey.4
Nearly 25 percent of American women report being raped and/or physically assaulted by a current or former spouse, cohabiting partner, or date at some time in their lifetime, according to the National Violence Against Women Survey, conducted from November 1995 to May 1996.5
Thirty percent of Americans say they know a woman who has been physically abused by her husband or boyfriend in the past year.6
Intimate partner violence is primarily a crime against women. In 1999, women accounted for 85 percent of the victims of intimate partner violence (671,110 total) and men accounted for 15 percent of the victims (120,100 total).7
While women are less likely than men to be victims of violent crimes overall, women are five to eight times more likely than men to be victimized by an intimate partner.8 From 1993 to 1998, victimization by an intimate accounted for 22 percent of the violence experienced by females. It accounted for three percent of the violent crime sustained by males.9
Women of all races are about equally vulnerable to violence by an intimate.10
The most rapid growth in domestic relations caseloads is occurring in domestic violence filings. Between 1993 and 1995, 18 of 32 states with three year filing figures reported an increase of 20 percent or more.12
Domestic Homicides

On average, more than three women are murdered by their husbands or boyfriends in this country every day. In 1999, 1, 642 murders were attributed to intimates; 74 percent of the murder victims (1,218 total) were women.14
Male murder victims are substantially less likely than female murder victims to be killed by an intimate partner. In 1999, intimate partner homicides accounted for 32 percent of the murders of women and approximately four percent of the murders of men.15
Health Issues

About half of all female victims of intimate violence report an injury of some type, and about 20 percent of them seek medical assistance.16
Thirty-seven percent of women who sought treatment in emergency rooms for violence-related injuries in 1994 were injured by a current or former spouse, boyfriend or girlfriend.17
Domestic Violence and Children

In a national survey of more than 6,000 American families, 50 percent of the men who frequently assaulted their wives also frequently abused their children.22
Slightly more than half of female victims of intimate violence live in households with children under age 12.23

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"I'll tell you something else. If Dr. Smith, said of me "You're paranoid," instead of you, some lesbian brownshirt social worker - if I let her in my house (which, I would NOT) - after she saw my collection of Bibles, would, with police assistance, grab my kids and place them in foster care without a court order."

It was this thinking, that just having a bible would be enough to get your kids taken away, that it was all about persecution for our faith, that was pounded into our heads over and over and driven by this fear we not only did not report the violence going on in our family, we lied to cover it.

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"Once in foster care, my children would likely be split into several homes. They could be subjected to medical treatment, including psychiatric counseling, immunization, and behavior modification drugs, all without my knowledge and authorization. I would likely not even know where my hildren were placed.

Then I would have the state as my opponent in juvenile court, where writs of habeus corpus do not apply. Therefore I would not have to be faced by an accuser. I would not necessarily be able to cross-examine witnesses. That would be at the whim of the judge. I would not be entitled to a public trial. Nor a jury trial. Neither would any charges have to be sustained. Nor would I be able to provide for my children's defense, because an guardian ad litem (attorney) would be appointed by the judge, most likely at my expense.

Now, I would need to defend not only against the tax-supported state, but against my own funds privately committed to the guardian ad litem. All this while, I would be separated from my children, who are with who-knows-who hearing-who-knows-what and going who-knows-where.

It would become incumbant upon me to prove myself a fit parent to have my own children in my own home. I would need to discredit Dr. mathias, in this instance, as being incompetent to judge. In the even that i took up my own defense (pro se), I could subpeona Dr. Smith into court as a witness, but it is possible, even likely, that the state could quash all evidence under the guise that they were doing an ongoing criminal investigation based on reports of the social workers, interviews with the children, blah, blah all of which would be told to the judge, and also those reports would at once be quashed by the state.

I could be separated from my children for any arbitrary length of time. The only way I would get them back is to agree under a court order to do certain things, behave certain ways, as outlined by a whole host of state leeches. If and when I got them back - it is entirely possible I WOULD NOT get them back - I would not likely have civil recourse against the parties because they may indemnified by the state against torts.

Dr. Smith might even have "Good Samaritan" statutory protection."

While I do not always agree with the actions in the Child Protection Services, I do not think that their problems justify leaving victims in an abusive home (one in which they are being physically hurt).  It was those problems in the system that so many people used to justify, ignoring my situation and just staying out of it.  However staying out of it did not solve the very real problems.  I was still abused and so was my mother.  Maybe instead of preaching the ills of the system, give an alternative, a way to protect those being abused.  A lot of times the kids will be sent to another family member's home where they will be safe.  Or make sure when you know of a situation like this that prompts you to make some kind of criminal report, that you stay involved to make sure the kids are not further victimized by the system.  Again, you throw out the baby with the bath water.  While there are problems in the system, does the fact that sometimes people are falsely accused or falsely convicted mean that we should not ever tell the government, that we should stay out of it?  Well, if this is what you decide then it is on your head what happens to the victims after that.  

End of part 1
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Kimberley Tobin
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« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2003, 03:23:32 am »

By law, as a health care provider, I am a 'mandated reporter', but i am first a Christian who owes my primary allegiance to God, not Caesar.  

Being a Christian who owes ones "primary allegiance to God, not Caesar" actually supports reporting suspicions of child abuse or domestic violence.  As a Christian, I would think it would be your primary goal to protect the victim, not the perpetrators, of such abuse.  This line of reasoning makes no sense.
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Kimberley Tobin
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« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2003, 03:26:12 am »

Wayne...well said.

You and I both know the legal status of DV...we have to report it. Someone I trust is doing just that in SLO? If not, it must be done. This not simply a spiritual matter but one of legality and moral responsibility.

THIS HAS TO BE REPORTED.

Dr. Brad Mathias

I think Dr. Mathias' stance is the biblically supported role.
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wmathews
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« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2003, 04:37:32 am »


Being a Christian who owes ones "primary allegiance to God, not Caesar" actually supports reporting suspicions of child abuse or domestic violence.  As a Christian, I would think it would be your primary goal to protect the victim, not the perpetrators, of such abuse.  This line of reasoning makes no sense.

The biblical mandate to protect the victim and oppressed is undeniable, whether it comes to reporting domestic violence or protecting the unborn. However, I do not hold the state as a perfect model of justice or mercy. All I am saying is that in the name of 'mandated reporting', innocent people have had children taken away, reputations besmirched, etc. I am not for one moment denying the need for the state's responsibility to protect its citizens, only reminding that the state also has the potential, historically demonstrated, of oppressing almost any group, whether by gender, race, age, etc.
NONE of this argument is meant to downplay the awful seriousness of the horrific abuse suffered by Judy, Rachel, and others on this BB. Please read my first post on my conviction of the churches' role in all this.  The church must be a safe place for the abused and victimized, not a haven for perpetrators.
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Rachel
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« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2003, 05:03:53 am »

Once again, I am not debating the merits of the governments system.  I am simply saying, if the church want to be "God's Government" as I was taught they were to be, as I grew up, they need to have a viable alternative to the State or Federal Government's solutions.  The church's solution needs to give adequate protection and be accountable for it.  If it can't or feels it shouldn't then the secular government needs to be called in to protect the victims of abuse and hold the abusers accountable in a real way.
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