Why Leaders Are Responsible

[faith]

just suppose......some Baptist minister is exposed for commiting adultery along with covering up wife abuse and a few other crimes.  So the elder board fires him and the Baptist Convention hears of his wrong doing.  Then this Baptist minister goes down the street to another Baptist church and is hired on as the new minister and nobody does anything to stop him.  Who is responsible?

"but it was a local issue"
"we weren't affected by him over here"
"we're done with the guy, he can't touch us anymore"

what does it say about the whole Baptist (for example) Convention?

Food for thought

[matthew r. sciaini]

Brent:

Actually, AMR is in Fullerton, and Jim Hayman has not been at the assembly meetings (as far as I have heard) since all this came down.

Matt Sciaini

[BeckyW]

I hope for Jim's sake that it's true.  Phill was told Jim's "sin" that he had to publicly apologize for not once, but twice at the 2002 worker's conference was the sin of "not following the counsel of his brethren in leadership".  
If that is true, Jim should be praised and commended for ignoring their counsel, given who his leaders were at the time.  
BTW, Phill did not ask anyone what the sin supposedly was, but he was told anyway.

Becky

[vernecarty]

According to the article, in what way have these guys not repented? Yes that is a serious question.

I'm not asking them to be as zealous as I am, I did it for conscience sake.  I am only hoping and praying that they have actually repented.  It certainly doesn't fit what the Bible says about repentance.

Brent Tr0ckman

Failure to repent in the face of undeniable sin justifies the designation of "vessel of wrath", no matter what they profess...
Verne

[editor]

Brent:

Actually, AMR is in Fullerton, and Jim Hayman has not been at the assembly meetings (as far as I have heard) since all this came down.

Matt Sciaini

Thanks Matt.  For those of you who don't know, Fullerton and Brea border eachother.  I am truly glad to hear that Jim Hayman has not been at the assembly meetings.  I am sorry to have stated otherwise, and hope this clears up any confusion.

I do know, for a fact, that Mark Miller and Tim Geftakys attend the meeting in Fullerton.

Faith:

just suppose......some Baptist minister is exposed for commiting adultery along with covering up wife abuse and a few other crimes.  So the elder board fires him and the Baptist Convention hears of his wrong doing.  Then this Baptist minister goes down the street to another Baptist church and is hired on as the new minister and nobody does anything to stop him.  Who is responsible?

"but it was a local issue"
"we weren't affected by him over here"
"we're done with the guy, he can't touch us anymore"

what does it say about the whole Baptist (for example) Convention?

Food for thought

Your scenario is right on the money.  Sadly, I must answer your "hypotheticals" like this:

Who is responsible?----the Baptist Convention.  They are supposed to look after the people who trust them.

What does it say about the whole Baptist(for example) Convention?---It says that they don't take what they do seriously, and have little regard for Jesus Christ, Head Over All Things to the church.  

However, with the "elders and leading brothers," who excommunicated George, it's different. Right??  I mean, these guys have repented, haven't they.  Can't you just "move on."  Can't you show a little love?  I don't believe the gossip that's on the Internet!  NO, I dont' read it.  I don't need to know, and I don't want to know!  I am just clinging to The Lord and the Word! It shouldn't have been done that way.  That's not The Lord's way!  In spite of what George did, he faithfully taught the things of God!.....right?

God scattered the ministry in order that we could go out as missionaries among the other churches and share our advanced Bible knowledge!  Any of us could have done what George did!  George didn't do anything wrong, and it was all blown out of proportion!  Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

I never followed George!  George only visited our Assembly, in SLO, twice a year!  We had very little to do with him.  David Geftakys only visited the SLO Assembly 8 or 9 times a year!  We weren't following him!  You don't know what went on behind closed doors!  

You think that everything and everyone that had contact with George is tainted!  You misinterpret the passage that says, "a little leaven leavens the whole lump."  It has nothing to do with the assembly.  It was for the Corinthians, who were involved in overlooking immoral behavior.  George was the only one who did what he did.  The brothers didn't know.

Brent is a liar.  The stories on the website are lies and exaggeration.  They aren't true.  I never did that.  We never did that.  George and David had some problems, that's all.  You've got to give people time to repent!

ad nauseum.

I think I have covered most of the arguments against the idea that anything bad ever really happened.  

[Uh Oh]

Brent:

Actually, AMR is in Fullerton, and Jim Hayman has not been at the assembly meetings (as far as I have heard) since all this came down.

Matt Sciaini

Of course Jim Hayman has not been at the assembly meetings...He has been hiding under a rock in Iceland - trying to escape "the end of times"....

[Uh Oh]

I do know, for a fact, that Mark Miller and Tim Geftakys attend the meeting in Fullerton.

Good for these two....Im sure its an incredibly enlightening and spiritual experience every time ministry is shared at Cult Central in Fullerton.

When are these people going to quit playing church and get a life?  Its almost comical. Mark always seemed to be a nice and sensible guy...Why on earth he hasn't cut the umbilical cord with that place with all that has been exposed is beyond me.

[editor]

I hope for Jim's sake that it's true.  Phill was told Jim's "sin" that he had to publicly apologize for not once, but twice at the 2002 worker's conference was the sin of "not following the counsel of his brethren in leadership".  
If that is true, Jim should be praised and commended for ignoring their counsel, given who his leaders were at the time.  
BTW, Phill did not ask anyone what the sin supposedly was, but he was told anyway.

Becky

I spoke with Cheryl Hayman at length in May of 2002.  I did so because I had heard that Jim had a nervous breakdown, and was hearing voices, which told him to flee southern CA, due to end-times stuff about to go down.  Cheryl was unaware that these rumors were being spread about her husband.

I specifically asked her if Jim was OK and she said that he was never better, and was thinking more clearly than ever.  

Jim was made to publicly repent for not following the counsel of the brethren, and for moving without their permission.  He gave this public "apology" twice.

My take:  Jim was confused about plenty of stuff, and was very absorbed in end-times teaching.  911 caused him to act, which meant he left "fellowship."  Originally, the plan was that he would carry on as a worker in Illinois, which is what he had wanted to to for some time.  (This all according to Cheryl)  However, the timing for Jim's indepentent decision could not have been worse.  The RickRoss articles were having their toll on the ministry.  People were leaving.  Jim's exodus must be managed properly, otherwise people would conclude that he, too was leaving fellowship.  Jim was well respected, afterall.

So, Jim came back, under pressure, and did what he was told to do.  His testosterone levels rose again and he left again, this time for a longer period.  Again, he knuckeld under and was forced to return and repent even more, for not being under the guidance and counsel of the brethren.  This was critical, because if people got the idea that they could make independent decisions, without getting permission, everyone knew they would all leave!

I wish Jim had not come back the first time.  When I heard of it, I was overjoyed and prayed for him.  When I heard he came back, I was crushed, because he had to damage his conscience, searing it with a hot iron, in order to emasculte himself publicly like that.  Very sad.

The worst thing about it is that Jim was brave enough to give 2 public apologies for moving without permission from headquarters, yet these other clowns read a paragraph, or have someone else read a paragraph, that gives a vague, pseudo-apology for something that may or may not have taken place; and if it did, it was because they were deceived!

Even worse, many of them claim to have been totally innocent in the whole affair, and insist that they were never influenced by George, despite the fact that both they and their spouses lived in his house for years!

How pathetic!  If these guys think they are going to "move on," they are simply demonstrating that they are still as deceived as ever.

Brent

[editor]

I do know, for a fact, that Mark Miller and Tim Geftakys attend the meeting in Fullerton.

Good for these two....Im sure its an incredibly enlightening and spiritual experience every time ministry is shared at Cult Central in Fullerton.

When are these people going to quit playing church and get a life?  Its almost comical. Mark always seemed to be a nice and sensible guy...Why on earth he hasn't cut the umbilical cord with that place with all that has been exposed is beyond me.

Betty has a hundred or so glass jars in a closet that contain the testicles of the young men she discipled.  Mark, along with so many others,  has yet to retrieve his, which is why he still attends the meetings.  

Brent

[jackhutchinson]

Brent,

So 'God's government' spread rumors and false accusations?  Wow!  I thought that was your job!

Jack

[editor]

Brent,

So 'God's government' spread rumors and false accusations?  Wow!  I thought that was your job!

Jack

Ironic, isn't it?

You would think with all the Selfer's prayers, and "Way of the Cross," stuff, coupled with the training homes and seminars, that people wouldn't have been fooled by my lies.  I wonder what went wrong?  

Brent

[M2]

Brent,

So 'God's government' spread rumors and false accusations?  Wow!  I thought that was your job!

Jack

Ironic, isn't it?

You would think with all the Selfer's prayers, and "Way of the Cross," stuff, coupled with the training homes and seminars, that people wouldn't have been fooled by my lies.  I wonder what went wrong?  

Brent

That's true, I've been totally decieved by the website.
Maybe I didn't pray the selfer's prayer enough times.

But then the person who preached the gospel to me influenced me into getting saved.

Marcia

[vernecarty]

I hope for Jim's sake that it's true.  Phill was told Jim's "sin" that he had to publicly apologize for not once, but twice at the 2002 worker's conference was the sin of "not following the counsel of his brethren in leadership".  
If that is true, Jim should be praised and commended for ignoring their counsel, given who his leaders were at the time.  
BTW, Phill did not ask anyone what the sin supposedly was, but he was told anyway.

Becky

  Jim's exodus must be managed properly, otherwise people would conclude that he, too was leaving fellowship.  Jim was well respected, afterall.

So, Jim came back, under pressure, and did what he was told to do.  His testosterone levels rose again and he left again, this time for a longer period.  Again, he knuckeld under and was forced to return and repent even more, for not being under the guidance and counsel of the brethren.  This was critical, because if people got the idea that they could make independent decisions, without getting permission, everyone knew they would all leave!

I wish Jim had not come back the first time.  When I heard of it, I was overjoyed and prayed for him.  When I heard he came back, I was crushed, because he had to damage his conscience, searing it with a hot iron, in order to emasculte himself publicly like that.  Very sad.

The worst thing about it is that Jim was brave enough to give 2 public apologies for moving without permission from headquarters, yet these other clowns read a paragraph, or have someone else read a paragraph, that gives a vague, pseudo-apology for something that may or may not have taken place; and if it did, it was because they were deceived!

Even worse, many of them claim to have been totally innocent in the whole affair, and insist that they were never influenced by George, despite the fact that both they and their spouses lived in his house for years!

How pathetic!  If these guys think they are going to "move on," they are simply demonstrating that they are still as deceived as ever.

Brent

The fact that someone of Jim Hayman's public intellectual and spiritual stature allowed himself to be so publicly diminished and humiliated speaks not only to the spiritual power the man Geftakys wielded, it also illustrated a hallmark characteristic of Geftakys' methods - anyone viewed as a person of esteem ultimately had to in some way be compromised and therefore the men who remained with him are (a priori!) damaged goods; George absolutely brooked no competition and would see to it...I believe Mark Miller stays because he is having great difficulty coming to grips with this sad reality...he knows much that we do not...

Betty has a hundred or so glass jars in a closet that contain the testicles of the young men she discipled.  Mark, along with so many others,  has yet to retrieve his, which is why he still attends the meetings.  

Brent

This goes a long way toward explaining the current state of affairs and the reaction from the "men" formerly associated in leadership with George and Betty "Harridan" Geftakys...
Verne

[Arthur]

Betty has a hundred or so glass jars in a closet that contain the testicles of the young men she discipled.  Mark, along with so many others,  has yet to retrieve his, which is why he still attends the meetings.  

Brent

Yikes!      She nearly sliced off mine.  She had them in her clutches for a while, but last I checked they were still in tact.  Glad I escaped before it was too late.

So, do you think they are being preserved in formaldehyde?  Is reattachment even a possibility?  Or will they carry them with them around in a box and be burried with them when they die.  Did she ever nab yours, Brent?  You have demonstrated some testosterone of late so if she did I assume they must have grown back.  

Hey being a eunuch isn't all that bad anyways  Daniel was one and Jesus mentioned being a "eunuch for the kingdom".  But being a eunuch for Betty doesn't sound all that noble. Interesting that you mention Betty and not George.  Maybe his was her first trophy, placed on the mantle above her bed...or on her nightstand maybe?

Growing up a dairy farm, I've watched neutering occur a few times--poor beasts loosing their masculinity, you have to feel sorry for the poor guys.  Ah well, at least they're not sentient so as to realize what they're loosing.  Actually performed the operation myself once on two of my bulls.  I used rubber bands though--much more humane than the knife.  

All I got to say is, if you're over at the house of a veterinarian (not a vegatarian...nor a veteran) for dinner, you might want to pass on the chicken nuggets.  

Arthur

[enchilada]

Betty has a hundred or so glass jars in a closet that contain the testicles of the young men she discipled.  Mark, along with so many others,  has yet to retrieve his, which is why he still attends the meetings.  

Brent

Yikes!      She nearly sliced off mine.  She had them in her clutches for a while, but last I checked they were still in tact.  Glad I escaped before it was too late.

So, do you think they are being preserved in formaldehyde?  Is reattachment even a possibility?  Or will they carry them with them around in a box and be burried with them when they die.  Did she ever nab yours, Brent?  You have demonstrated some testosterone of late so if she did I assume they must have grown back.  

Hey being a eunuch isn't all that bad anyways  Daniel was one and Jesus mentioned being a "eunuch for the kingdom".  But being a eunuch for Betty doesn't sound all that noble. Interesting that you mention Betty and not George.  Maybe his was her first trophy, placed on the mantle above her bed...or on her nightstand maybe?

Growing up a dairy farm, I've watched neutering occur a few times--poor beasts loosing their masculinity, you have to feel sorry for the poor guys.  Ah well, at least they're not sentient so as to realize what they're loosing.  Actually performed the operation myself once on two of my bulls.  I used rubber bands though--much more humane than the knife.  

All I got to say is, if you're over at the house of a veterinarian (not a vegatarian...nor a veteran) for dinner, you might want to pass on the chicken nuggets.  

Arthur

How did Betty go about performing the castrations?  How can an 185,000 year old woman create so much trouble?