WOUNDED PILGRIMS

[Mark C.]

               
                  LARRY'S STORY CONTINUED


    Before getting to the place where Larry's local group fell apart I need to fill in the blanks re. some of the destructive aspects of replacing affection/devotion toward God with these same directed toward the group by Larry.

   It seems obvious, in retrospect, to most but the most hard headed former member, that absolute unqualified commitment to any church is potentially a very unwise choice to make.  Indeed, a sign of a "healthy" church is one that has checks and balances in place for just this very reason.

   It is just as clear that the Bible does not call for us to make such commitments to any earhtly leader, group, etc., rather these determinations are solely to be made toward God himself.

   But, experience with God was not part of Larry's day-to-day life, and the Assembly brought the expectation that God could be felt through group participation.  Indeed, the first seminar that Larry attended was filled with the wonder that God had come down to dwell in the midst via His Spirit!

  Larry had found "it," and "it" was the feeling of belonging to God's very special family and that as long as he remained a member in good standing his life would only go on "from glory to glory."


 This was a very emotionally secure place (finally) that was guaranteed no disappointment, and offered the upside potential of all the personal perks of special insder membership!  God's special club that only allowed the most serious and committed of believers.

 The one qualification to make into that very privileged place was loyalty to the group cause, and to reject any negative criticisms of these group goals.  The conscience was thus trained to classify any "negative thoughts", whatever evidence to the contrary, as being from the devil, flesh, or the world.

  All the activities of the group also provided another "benefit" for Larry in that he could get so involved in the activities there that he didn't have to stop to think about what his conscience from time to time bothered him with.

   He was aware when I was being pressured to leave the group that the leaders had called a secret meeting, and then lied to me about it, but responding to this awareness would have put him in the same boat as I was in which would have led to estrangement from these leaders.  This was a price he was unwilling to pay.

  This kind of weak moral stand of Larry's was a direct result of putting the Assembly first and made him a coward in dealing with those who held his heart in their hands.  His Heavenly Father should have held that heart, but his earthly ones' did, and he was much the worse for this decision as a result.

   Most discussions today re. "being like Christ" among Christians don't include the aspect of character called "boldness", unless it has to do with witnessing in an hostile environment.

   Being a coward, as exemplified by Larry above, in the Assembly was considered being "humble" when it came to standing against obvious wrong doing. 

  This kind of negative character reinforcement has the power to take over the entire soul, in that it destroys the ability to an essential part of godly expression.

     Godliness is an excercise of the will, and when the will is made weak we risk the loss of an essential facility of our person that God would have us to use. God wants us to be of "good courage", but this takes mature development, but the Assembly put Larry on the path to immaturity in his life as a Christian.

   Dishonest in protecting the group, we also become dishonest in what we know to be true in our own hearts about ourselves, in our marriages, families, etc.

  We will see how Larry carried that weakness over to his post Assembly life later, but for right now we need to understand why many of us are so weak and facillating in our ability to make decisions in our regular life now apart from the group.

  I know that when I first left I felt very guilty about "talking bad" about the group, because the above training was so deeply ingrained in my soul.  I had to learn to not respond to that kind of feeling of guilt, because it was not a Spirit induced sensitivity, rather a cultish manifiestation of false loyalities.

  At this point of Larry's story he would laugh soundly at any such talk; dismissing it as "psycho-babble", of the highest order.  As we continue we will see if Larry is better disposed to consideration of this line of thought.

  Hopefully these insights will be help us understand some of our adjustment problems since leaving.  I will confess that after some 15 years or so out I am still dealing with what a coward I can be at times (some of Larry was in me).

   Fearful at losing friends, being embarrassed, etc. when I should be most concerned with what God thinks of my behavior.  This has to do with much more than just "a bold witness", but with dealing with the truth re. myself, family, etc.

  Part of Christian maturity is a willingness to suffer emotional pain in order to do what is right.  Of course, we need moral clarity in order to make that strong stand first, but that half of the equation is the easier of the two (I will explain this later).

  I will also share later some of the things that have helped me deal with this, and I will just say now it wasn't by taking classes in self assertiveness.

                                              God Bless,  Mark C.

     

 

   

[Mark C.]

                            LARRY'S STORY CONTINUES:

    The Assembly provided an emotionally safe place for Larry where he was protected from the pain of growing up.  Most decisions were made for him by "God's government", and this prevented his having to making mistakes.  He still blames his decision to cut-off his relationship with me on "the brothers", though it was his own decision to make at the time.

    Since we learn by making mistakes Larry didn't grow-up a whole lot, and still retains an immaturity in his development as a person.  Don't get me wrong, he's a great guy in many ways, I love him dearly, but he has a lot of catching up to do in dealing with how to make basic decisions re. how he will live out his faith.

   When the Assembly split-up he finally saw that their were some serious problems with the leaders and tried to make a stand.  However, he was crushed when these guys refused to honestly answer his very legitimate questions.  These former guides just abandoned the sinking ship altogether, and Larry with that ship.  He tried (and maybe is still trying) to get these guys to talk to him, but he has to grovel at their feet and avoid talking honestly or they will abandon the conversation.

  Why does Larry persist in this kind of self debasing behavior?  I believe it's because it's a cold cruel world out there away from the old emotional safe haven, and he can't find the same kind of feeling in the church he now attends.  The church he goes to now certainly does not provide a leader who will parent him, and the relationships do not satisfy the same kind of familial emotional need that he has.

  He can't earn a place in his new relationships by being a "diligent and responsible brother", and there is no pecking order that he can fit into; nor are there those in churches he visits that are interested in playing that kind of game.  There is no Kingdom to lose if he doesn't have his morning time, and no one to pat him on the back when he gives a "good word."

  Larry's view of Christian morality is the same as in all performance based religious groups that don't understand how grace works in a believers heart.  I don't mean to be too hard on Larry here, because this is not an easy lesson to learn, but Larry is getting a late start on learning it because of his time in the Assembly.

 Larry can't understand why churches he visits seem to lack the same kind of determined effort, and discipline he associates with those who are "serious" in their lives with the Lord.  He just doesn't fit in with this kind of crowd and pines for the "pedal-to-the-metal" kind of enthusiasm that was his previous experience.

  The above paragraph describes a devotion to an exhilarating emotional experience, not to any kind of true spirituality.  This kind of mind-set is actually very shallow because it judges those it sees totally on the basis of how they appear, and not how God sees them.

  This is how performance based belief systems can skew our view of God and his righteousness:

1) It starts by setting up a standard (a good one to be sure) and then everyone pretends that they are living up to that rule.

    Rom. 7 talks about what kind of hypocrisy that creates and how it frustrates the grace of God and it's work in our lives.

  2.) This false system makes us very quick to judge those that don't appear to live up to this good code we've established.

    We become very critical of other Christians-- "why did that person yawn in church?  Maybe his heart is not right with God?" etc.  Paul tells us not to judge one anothers motives, and even not to become critical of ourselves in this way.

  Larry was judging this church based on his interpretation of their attitudes while sitting in the pews, but he has no idea what God is really doing in the hearts of these folks. 

       Grace works like this:

1.) The people don't have to come, but they do anyway.

   There is no "you will lose the inheritance" gun pointed at their head, and yet they still come to the meeting to hear God's word, fellowship, worship, etc.  Why? They are already saved!

  2.) The people feel no need to put on a "holy behavior" to look good in the eyes of those they gather with.

   What larry thought was sloth, God might think of as honesty.  It's not for us to make these kind of judgments.  Honesty is a whole lot more important than trying hard to look spiritual for others, and it is the more likely to be an opportunity to experience God. 

      3.) These folks probably don't consider themselves to be very spiritual, knowledgable, or otherwise on a level with someone like Larry.   

     Grace finds the humble and these "simple" believers are not coming to church to "make their contribution" and may even be hanging their head as the Publican and saying, "God be merciful to me the sinner."  Grace is for ragamuffins, and polished performers will not feel at home among such rabble.

                                               God Bless,  Mark C. 

         

[vernecarty]

                            LARRY'S STORY CONTINUES:

  Why does Larry persist in this kind of self debasing behavior? 
                                               God Bless,  Mark C. 

         

The death grip some folk have on that system is indeed quite a mystery.
We all understand the circumstances that may have led many of us to get involved initially, but trying to somehow hold on after all that has happened??!!
The most remarkable example of that kind of tenacity took place right here in Champaign.
One former "responsible brother" continued the meetings  in his home even when his own family were the only ones in attendance. The dearth of participants of course required his adolescent sons to "bring ministry".
These folk desperately need help. I feel particularly badly for the woman joined to such an individual...could it be a profound delusional state, or just an obstinacy that issues in the extremely foolish? Who knows...
Verne

[Elizabeth H]

The death grip some folk have on that system is indeed quite a mystery.
We all understand the circumstances that may have led many of us to get involved initially, but trying to somehow hold on after all that has happened??!!
The most remarkable example of that kind of tenacity took place right here in Champaign.
One former "responsible brother" continued the meetings  in his home even when his own family were the only ones in attendance. The dearth of participants of course required his adolescent sons to "bring ministry".
These folk desperately need help. I feel particularly badly for the woman joined to such an individual...could it be a profound delusional state, or just an obstinacy that issues in the extremely foolish? Who knows...
Verne

geez, verne, this seems a little harsh.
yeah, they "desperately need help." but is mockingly posting their actions really helpful? it's so easy to post something, ie. 'look at those poor deluded souls! why can't they just snap out of it?' it's quite a different thing to stop by the side of the road and tend to the wounds.
if you feel "particularly badly" for the women, are you doing anything about it?
i fail to see how sitting at a computer and posting the latest gossip is helpful.
it seems pretty hurtful, actually.

E.

[vernecarty]

geez, verne, this seems a little harsh.
yeah, they "desperately need help." but is mockingly posting their actions really helpful?

It may be.
This does not make what this so-called brother is doing any less ridicuous and contemptible.
If it is his intention to draw the unsuspecting and gullible into his web of deceit and confusion, then yes, it needs to be talked about and exposed for what it is.

 

it's so easy to post something, ie. 'look at those poor deluded souls! why can't they just snap out of it?' it's quite a different thing to stop by the side of the road and tend to the wounds.
if you feel "particularly badly" for the women, are you doing anything about it?
i fail to see how sitting at a computer and posting the latest gossip is helpful.
it seems pretty hurtful, actually.

E.

It would have been gossip if it were idle and I had named names.
I did not name names and it is not idle.
For those who did not know whom I was talking about, his name is Tom Lessares and he is a former leader of the Champaign bunch. Folk need to know that he is a former cult leader who continues in his deception and they need to steer clear of him.
I wish somebody had told me this about Geftakys.
As to approaching the man's wife, I know you really cannot be at all serious...or are you?
Verne

[Elizabeth H]

fair enough, Verne. I have no quarrel with your basic premise.

my intention is not to defend the contemptible. i guess i just disagree with your definition of what is helpful.

exposing error is helpful. IMO, personal attacks are not.

regarding "the man's wife"= if she were to read what you wrote, do you think she would feel helped or hurt by your conclusions regarding her mental state? your two options were: "profound delusional state" or "obstinancy that issues in the extreme." i would venture to say she might feel very hurt.

mark's personality profiles are helpful in that they are not personal attacks, but composite sketches of certain personalities that thrived in the system. as such, someone may be helped by reading this because they might see certain facets of their own behavior they might not have seen otherwise.

i just think we have to proceed with compassion & understanding, otherwise we are in danger of becoming that which we hate.

E.

[vernecarty]

fair enough, Verne. I have no quarrel with your basic premise.

my intention is not to defend the contemptible. i guess i just disagree with your definition of what is helpful.

exposing error is helpful. IMO, personal attacks are not.

Point well-taken E.
While it is true that what I see as a shameful silence in the face of wrong doing in the assemblies sometimes causes me to go to the other extreme, this is person I dare say that I know a lot better than you do.
I fully agree that you do not begin with "personal attack" and I might add neither should you end there.
I think, though, that one does have to speak the truth, albeit in love.
There comes a time, when in the face of persistent reprehensible conduct, voices should be loudly raised in condemnation.
I don't need to go into all the things that took place in Champaign.
I will tell you in no uncertain terms that they were reprehensible.
In my view, the best way to be helpful is to tell it like it is.

regarding "the man's wife"= if she were to read what you
 wrote, do you think she would feel helped or hurt by your conclusions regarding her mental state? your two options were: "profound delusional state" or "obstinancy that issues in the extreme." i would venture to say she might feel very hurt.

E I am going to go way out on a limb here. If you strongly disagree with me on this I will understand entirely.

Weak and willing women had a lot to do with the horror or what happened in the assemblies!

I have been blessed with a wife who is a remarkable combination of silk and steel.
She fully subscribes to the Biblical idea that as husband father that I am supposed to lead this family, and she fully expects that I do so.
The notion that I could ever in my wildest dreams attempt to do to my wife what some of these assembly neanderthals were taught to do to their wives makes me roll on the floor with mirth.

Her personal dignity and character would not for one second permit it!

For all those assembly women, who for miserable years have coddled their witless husbands, and stood idly by while they acted like street thugs and confused indulgence of this sort with godliness I say:

Shame on you!!!

If you have some idiot husband playing church in your living room every Sunday and ruining the social, spiritual and psychological health of your kids, that is not the time to feel hurt over some peon like me pointing out how completely stupid this is.
It is time for you as a mother, wife and child of God to get a clue!

Get out there and find a gathering of God's people where you can be fed, encouraged and built up in your faith.
Even more importantly, where the toxic effect of your years under Geftakys' evil influence can be miitigated by the ministrations of true men of God.

mark's personality profiles are helpful in that they are not personal attacks, but composite sketches of certain personalities that thrived in the system. as such, someone may be helped by reading this because they might see certain facets of their own behavior they might not have seen otherwise.

i just think we have to proceed with compassion & understanding, otherwise we are in danger of becoming that which we hate.

E.

That may be true. I do think my approach is far more efficient though. This person if he reads here will have no doubt that I am indeed talking to and about him. I am prepared to continue the conversation in private if he is interested. I seriously doubt that I could ever be a help, despite my best intentions, to someone like this.
Verne
p.s, I do realise there were some instances in which Geftakys used the wives of men he wanted to control to absolutely castrate them...hard to say which was worse...

[outdeep]

   When the Assembly split-up he finally saw that their were some serious problems with the leaders and tried to make a stand.  However, he was crushed when these guys refused to honestly answer his very legitimate questions.  These former guides just abandoned the sinking ship altogether, and Larry with that ship.  He tried (and maybe is still trying) to get these guys to talk to him, but he has to grovel at their feet and avoid talking honestly or they will abandon the conversation.

  Why does Larry persist in this kind of self debasing behavior?  I believe it's because it's a cold cruel world out there away from the old emotional safe haven, and he can't find the same kind of feeling in the church he now attends.  The church he goes to now certainly does not provide a leader who will parent him, and the relationships do not satisfy the same kind of familial emotional need that he has.

A couple of theories come to mind:

1.  George's main criteria for leadership was faithfulness (to him), not necessarily adequate management skills.  Larry may have been a fine leader in upholding the standard when he was told what the standard was.  He may not have the skills to deal with conflict and confrontation with folks who are on different sides of an issue.  He may be a lousy manager and thus not know how to take on issues in a healthy manner.

2.  Not everyone does something just because it is the right thing to do.  On the one hand, his head may be telling him what is right.  On the other hand, he may be captive to his heart that still wants to believe in the cause of the Assembly and that everything will be right one day.  He may be like the man who jumped out of a plane without a parashoot.  Against all logic, he still keeps trying to pull the rip chord unwilling to fully accept that it is not there.

3.  Old patterns are heard to break.  Learning to not trust the subjective feelings in my heart takes purposeful exercise.  His heart may still "feel" that confronting leadership is a manifestation of the self life and an affront to God.  He may still feel at this late point that critisizing God's government (though proven to be in the wrong) will cost him the inheritance and earn the displeasure of God.  Just because he knows something intellectually doesn't mean that he has learned to overcome the strong counter-feelings in his heart.

[Elizabeth H]

I will tell you in no uncertain terms that they were reprehensible.
In my view, the best way to be helpful is to tell it like it is.

E I am going to go way out on a limb here. If you strongly disagree with me on this I will understand entirely.

Weak and willing women had a lot to do with the horror or what happened in the assemblies!


Her personal dignity and character would not for one second permit it!

For all those assembly women, who for miserable years have coddled their witless husbands, and stood idly by while they acted like street thugs and confused indulgence of this sort with godliness I say:

Shame on you!!!

If you have some idiot husband playing church in your living room every Sunday and ruining the social, spiritual and psychological health of your kids, that is not the time to feel hurt over some peon like me pointing out how completely stupid this is.
It is time for you as a mother, wife and child of God to get a clue!

I agree with you, Verne, to an extent.

Too much of what happened was enabled by wives who did not stand up to their husband's foolishness. But I think this is too simplistic an explanation. It underestimates the all-pervading power of the system. In an environment where independent thought is completely squelched and loyalty to leadership is the preeminent virtue, having a dissenting thought or opinion is treachery. I don't know that it was about being weak & willing so much as it was about survival. While many women may have disagreed with various skewed teachings (ie, Wife Training) they kept quiet because to speak up was tantamount to rebellion and would have brought down more wrath upon their heads.

Now that the system is defunct, however, I do agree that your straight-shooting approach (ie, "get a clue!") can be helpful. There is a need to be jolted awake and then there is the process of recovery.

It is the process of recovery that I am interested in. Most of us have been awake for quite some time, now.

E.

[Elizabeth H]

Marcia,

I guess I don't really understand the context/purpose for those verses you quoted?  You offered them without much explanation and I guess I'm a tad confused.

I certainly wasn't implying that we should muffle the truth about those continuing in Assembly methods. But I also think we ought to proceed with a good measure of compassion---that is, if our goal ultimately is reconciliation of relationships.

Granted, if individuals continue to persist in stubborness and an unwillingness to take responsibility for their part, blunt truth-telling is absolutely necessary.

All I'm suggesting is balance....maybe I'm wrong here. 

E.

[vernecarty]

It is the process of recovery that I am interested in. Most of us have been awake for quite some time, now.

E.

Judging from our conversation E, it is my humble opinon that the sisiter in question would benefit grreatly from a conversation with you about these things. It may be a bit difficult getting past her husband though...
Verne

[M2]

Marcia,

I guess I don't really understand the context/purpose for those verses you quoted?  You offered them without much explanation and I guess I'm a tad confused.

I certainly wasn't implying that we should muffle the truth about those continuing in Assembly methods. But I also think we ought to proceed with a good measure of compassion---that is, if our goal ultimately is reconciliation of relationships.

Granted, if individuals continue to persist in stubborness and an unwillingness to take responsibility for their part, blunt truth-telling is absolutely necessary.

All I'm suggesting is balance....maybe I'm wrong here. 

E.

Dear E.

The verses were offered as a perspective to the tone of Verne's post that you and Verne were discussing and I butted in on.

Re. reconciliation, I believe that you are on the right path and will gain wisdom through your experiences in that arena.

God bless,
Marcia

[Mark C.]

Merry Christmas!!!!

  With all eight grand kids here for the week, and their parents, (all kids under 7) I have been rather busy

   Sorry I missed keeping up with the comments that "Larry" inspired here, but I did want to say a few things nonetheless.

   I think that Larry can provide some clues to those who have shared their trouble in adjusting to post Assembly life. 

   There are those, like Larry, who are looking for that "perfect" community of believers where:

1.) God tells them what to do (without their need to think through tough decisions themselves).

2.) One can feel very self satisfied in the possession of superior spiritual knowledge.

3.) God, and one's place in his organization, can be earned via loyalty to the group and dedication to it's disciplines.

   When Larry went into the group he enveloped himself in a protective shell that kept him from the pain of growing up.  Coming out of that shell is a big shock --- life just isn't as easy as out on his own.

   We see things "darkly, as through a glass", re. much that we thought we had a complete understanding of.  Now, Larry will have to think on his own and risk making some mistakes.

   Doubts, fears, mistakes, are now a scary part of Larry's life and how to handle these things are difficult for the immature.  Independence as a person of faith seems like an oxymoron to Larry, as it was the opposite message that he was raised with in the group.

   Things that my teenagers had to learn when they moved out of our home Larry is just starting to learn in his 40's!

    I will share what my advice to Larry would be, if he were ever to ask me for my opinion.

                                                       God Bless,  Mark C.

[thomasson]

Thank God there were people in Chicago who never lived in a sisters apartment and others who had opposed the leadership before it fell apart.  These people and therapy are the only thing that delivered me from being Larry's cloned sister Sherry.   There were always people like Mary Dennis who would ask me if my decision to move into a sisters apartment was from the Lord or the click.  And people like John Atwood who thought the idea of being 30 years old and living in a training house was ridiculous.  I know neither of them read this website, but if so thank you

[Mark C.]

Hi Thomasson! 

   John Atwood??!!!  Now there is a guy I really liked, though I lived in Calif., and now I know why I liked him so much! 

    Do you know how to get in contact with him?  The last I heard he had been kicked out of the Workers Meeting for getting angry for not submitting to one of GG's "you're-on-the-hot-seat" sessions! 

 It seems early on John saw through a lot of Assembly nonsense for what it was----- just plain old fashioned abusive treatment.

   I'm glad that you had those still around who could offer another view there in Chicago.  In the Valley, where I was from, all those who dared to offer "another perspective" were forced out of the group and demonized.  This made guys like "Larry" into making a choice between "God or the devil"----- which meant respectively, the Assembly or folks like me.

   This brings me to the promised advice that I would offer Larry, if he were to really want that advice. 

1.) There are no experts when it comes to how one learns to adjust to post Assembly life because we are all so different.  What works for me may not work for you.

   I left the Assembly as a married man with teenage children, with my own set of experiences in the Assembly in the Valley, and with my own particular personality type.  I can give general advice about certain things that worked for me, but this may not be helpful at all to others.

     Larry will have to learn to live without a guru to guide him, and take the very difficult step of learning to think for himself.   This will also mean that he will have to take responsibility for his own decisions, and mistakes (can't blame the bros.'s anymore).

2.) We no longer live under "The Covering.

   This can be easily misunderstood, for God does cover our lives, but not in the sense as learned in the Assembly.  In the group we were "covered" by God if loyal to the cause, and this made things very clear as to what was "good or bad."

   As members of the Assembly we also had an emotional "covering" where we had a place of acceptance and love.  To leave this was to head out into the cold world where none cared for us.  Even the evangelical church we may visit doesn't provide that same kind of "love" we are used to experiencing.

   Just like a child growing up and leaving home, we as believers also have to learn to be less dependant on others for these emotional needs.  One of the primary advantages of being shoved out of the nest is that we learn to deal with facing life on our own.

   Larry shouldn't look for a "place" to regain the "feeling" of belonging to a church family and instead should be thinking along the lines of finding a place where he can help others.  Though he has a great deal to learn from others in a church setting, he also has learned some very valuable lessons from his past that can be very helpful to other believers.

3.) Living out our faith on the basis of God's gift vs. my performance.

       This battle seems to be one that is very, very difficult for many former members.  As we can see on this BB there are those who are still very offended by the notion that God does not give out brownie points for high achievement.

   You know that you have a problem with this when:

1.) You visit a church and "thank God that you are not like them."  Scoffing at their less knowledgable approaches to worship, their shallow bumper stickers, etc.

2.) You hold your opinions very strongly and belittle those who dare to disagree with your point of view.

3.) You possess a split kind of personality where you deny the presence of your own humanity, and act out in "spiritual" ways when in public.  Little "slips" into the "flesh" are excused as being the fault of others, and you get very agitated with those who point out your faults.

  I can talk freely of these characteristics because, to my shame, I came out of the group simply overflowing with all these above attitudes!  Yes, I was unaware of what a Pharisee I had become, but there's nothing like socializing with those that are "just forgiven," and have no motive to put on an act, in making you aware of how arrogant you can get!

   If we understand grace at all then we must understand that God freely gave to us what we never had and that we can only continue our lives with Him on that same basis! It's one thing to be able to recite the correct line above and another altogether to let these lines control your life!

                                                                     God Bless,  Mark C.