WOUNDED PILGRIMS

[tenderhearted]

Hi Mark: I hope you had a great weekend.

I was just passing through the assembly board, and was reading.

On the subject of guilt.  If you feel the need to share that guilt to get rid of it, I believe that is great. After all we are to share our burdens with others.
Guilt like bitterness, can eat at us.
Dont beat yourself up over it, which is easier said than done, which I know.
Can you go back to the past and change it . No.
Can you learn from it?, Yes, which you seem have done.
Your girls are adults now.
You raised them, with the tools you knew at the time.
What you related, they seemed to be productive members of society. You seem to be very proud of the way they turned out.

Okay one of them is distrusting of the church. Maybe she hasnt found a suitable church home family yet.
Her distrust can be a very healthy, as long as she is continuing to believe on the Saviour, and walking with Him. Jesus will lead her to a church home.

Mark, God is probably at this time, helping you dig out that closet that you didnt want to share with him. God has the broom and sweeping at the areas that have been hidden, saying okay Mark, when were you going to share this with me, so I can get rid of it for you.

Talk to you later.
Keep on Fighting the Good FIght.

Lenore

[Mark C.]

Thanks Dave, Summer, and Lenore! 

  I have read your responses and have been thinking about them, but have not had an opportunity to respond yet.  They have all stirred me to thoughtfully reflect on the advice given.  I appreciate the direct candor and sincerity in which they were posted for my benefit.

  I am very glad that my children have retained their faith in Christ, inspite of all that went on in the group and failings as a parent, and for this I'm very thankful for God's wonderful grace and mercy.  Now I guess I can start to worry about the 8 Grandkids they have produced!   I didn't mean to give the idea that I'm suffering in deep depression when considering my past parenting, just that it is painful to try and recount these mistakes that I made with them.

  I will respond more specifically re. my cogitations and inner rumblings as to your posts' when I have an opportunity to do so; hopefully in a manner that is illuminating.  It is great to have these kind of discussions (at least I enjoy them) because it gives me a chance to try and think through some tough things and learn how to make my position clear.

    Just a couple of responses:

Lenore:  Thanks for your advice on guilt.  I don't want to leave you with the impression that it constantly controls my life.  It is something that I struggle with but I have learned to nip it in the bud, so to speak, (usually) before it pulls me under.  My reading of everything re. grace that I could find when first leaving the Assembly has been my life line!

Dave:  Your kids are lucky to have you for a Dad and Loretta for a Mother!  I think that I pretty much have come to the same conclusions that you have:  Different discipline/teaching methods can't replace a loving parent's heart who draws their strength from faith in God!  Kids see this in us (though during the terrible teens they don't seem to) and come home to their roots (and senses).

Summer:  Your post will require a rather lengthy reply because: 1.) I know there were many who read who probably agree with your views and I would like to take a shot at clearing up my philosophical postion 2.) These recommendations of yours for me were very personal (I don't object to this at all--- I brought the subject up) and I want to thoughtfully and humbly reflect on what you said to me.

                                                              God Bless,  Mark C.

[moonflower2]

Lenore and Summer, I think you may both be over reacting to Mark's posts.

Because someone mentions regret about how something may have affected their children, it doesn't mean that they are overcome and weighed down by guilt. Most parents have times when they feel guilty and times when they have regrets, ie, woulda, shoulda, coulda. It doesn't mean that it's a lifestyle just because someone mentions it.

And watching your children raise their children brings back memories again. The way we raise our children will definitely affect how they raise their children. Mark gave a wink at that issue, but it is true that we are concerned again about our grandchildren.

As far as a wellness retreat for Mark, I think he is probably doing fine. I happen to enjoy thinking about human behavior. Marks stories have helped me to see some of the x-lodge barbarians as more than just book-wacking, finger-pointing self-appointed gods. It has helped me understand others as well as me.

As far as Paul goes, I doubt that he ever forgot how he persecuted Christians. He could use it as a true picture of God's grace and forgiveness, which is what he did. I never got the impression that Paul ever forgot what he was like before becoming a believer. He mentions it, but that doesn't mean Paul was having problems with guilt for past behavior.

Oh, and to say that Mark is "obsessed" with x-lodge issues and/or people, is a stretch, I think. Any counselor could be considered to be "obsessed with issues that they deal with every day. Because they have an interest in the topic, doesn't mean they are obsessed with it; they are interested in the topic.

Moonflower

[outdeep]

  Kids see this in us (though during the terrible teens they don't seem to) and come home to their roots (and senses).

My personal theory about adolecence:  Just before Junior High, kids go temporarily insane.  Most of the time they come out of it somewhere between 18 and 30.  Our role as parents is to do what we can so they don't hurt themselves or make some life-dominating bad decision during that time until such time as they return to sanity.

I know there are exceptions and I haven't exactly proved this theory universally.  But, I have talked to enough parents where this seems to be the case.

[summer007]

Moonflower, You may have missed Marks origional post asking for honest responces to his post of how bad he felt about the way he treated his children in the assm and he was overcome by this and asked why is this? So you don't have to agree with any of the responces we all have different perspectives. Also a few years back MC did say he'd love to go to Wellspring pg 1 on WP. And I'm sure it's been amazing for many to have WP whether in or out of the assm. I do think it would be scary for his daughter to only see wounded pilgims, churches that abuse and subtle power of churches that abuse at some point she should see the Church in a positive light being that it's Christs body and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. So again these are just opinions and suggestions I realize Mark has'nt lost his sence of humor re: his last post, yes I think he'll be fine and really loves to help people. Summer p.s. Paul might of just been forgetting his latest perils or the old nature.

[Oscar]

My personal theory about adolecence:  Just before Junior High, kids go temporarily insane.  Most of the time they come out of it somewhere between 18 and 30.  Our role as parents is to do what we can so they don't hurt themselves or make some life-dominating bad decision during that time until such time as they return to sanity.

I know there are exceptions and I haven't exactly proved this theory universally.  But, I have talked to enough parents where this seems to be the case.

Both my experiences and my observations lead me to agree, Dave.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

[tenderhearted]

Quote: Reply to :

Lenore:  Thanks for your advice on guilt.  I don't want to leave you with the impression that it constantly controls my life.  It is something that I struggle with but I have learned to nip it in the bud, so to speak, (usually) before it pulls me under.  My reading of everything re. grace that I could find when first leaving the Assembly has been my life line!


Quote ending:


Hi Mark:  Thank you for replying.
As for the above.  No I didnt think that.  I deal with guilt of the consequences of my actions as a parent.
My consequences is a broken relationship even to the point of non existent relationship, which is not my idea.

I have to constant remind myself, that I have to let the matter be handle by God.
I am not there yet.

I am sorry you felt the need to defend your motives.

I am glad you felt the need to share what you did share, as lightening the heaviness, as you were sharing became to heavy to carry. That is what we are here for, as instructed in God's Word.

Mark: you are a great example to me, in dealing with the past by putting it into respective in the present, but it is not for selfish purposes either. As you have gone through the journey, you made sure that others on the same journey were not alone in the same feelings. Thus became a encouragement.
It is not just the positive feelings and successes that we are encouraged, it is by the every day struggles, valleys as well as the mountain tops that we can be most encouraged by anothers success.  Some times is the struggle when someone is down, and able to keep going despite of being down, can be a life preserve to hang on to.  Which I applause.

Have a great day. You are valued as a Christian Brother and Friend.

Lenore

[Mark C.]

Thanks so much Everyone!

  I truly appreciate all of the responses, even from those that disagree.  I want to try in this post to answer Summer's challenges (yes, I did receive them as being given in a spirit of helpfulness). 

  I want to focus in this post on the issue of whether or not my views are "obsessed" with the more negative aspects of the Assembly.  I don't mean at this time to discuss whether I have a personal psychological problem (I can maybe present a sanity defense at a later time ); my real interest now is to try and explain my biblical basis for "Wounded Pilgrims" and why I do believe it is a valuable pursuit on my part.

 
  1.) Were Jesus and Paul obsessed with bad religious groups/people?

     As you read through the NT please notice how many times Jesus and Paul address the issue of "false brethren."  Jesus takes an entire chapter in Mt. 23 to very strongly denounce an evil religious system.  In that chapter he describes how it works and what this system makes of the members.  He goes so far as to say that those converted to the Jewish religion of that day became "twice the sons of hell", more than their own recruiters!

    Paul devotes a great deal of time in his epistles, as well, to identifying the characteristics of this evil system of false religion and the great damage it can do to the souls of men. 

   It is important to notice that this battle that Jesus and Paul fight is not just a war of theological thought but is inseparably bound to issues of character:  fraudulent systems of belief are rooted, grow, and spread in human hearts.   Some sincere people are "taken captive" by certain seductive forces (Gal. 3:1-)  and as Jesus said, are "made", in some cases, into something monstrous (son of hell).

   "Made---- how so?"    Primarily, as my many stories in WP illustrate, in the conscience:  either by making the conscience hard (resistance to honesty re. oneself), with the leader type, and in the follower the opposite by making their conscience extremely sensitive (very self aware and constantly self condemning.)

   Now, these observations are based solely on what former members of the Assembly all know to be true (none of us need a scholarly scientific study to understand this) and from even a casual reading of the bible with that info.

2.)This power to "make" the human soul is very destructive---- It wounds!

    Jesus, Paul, John the Baptist, etc. warned that these false religious groups were literally toxic!  The frustration of God's true working in the life via these false systems produces notable damage and  getting better from many years of taking that poison ("vipers") means that former members must understand how they've been getting that poison and what the antidote is.

   3.)This evil force is not just found in cults, fringe churches, the Assembly, but is an ever present danger where any religious folk may seek to organize and gather.

    Jesus warned his disciples, "take heed to yourself" in regard to the danger of "beating the sheep" and Paul did the same.  Why?  because spiritual abuse is the particular sin that can come to those who believe they've been "called of God."

 4.) Who might benefit from reading WP's?

   There are literally many thousands who have been deeply hurt by the above described bad religion.  The most deeply hurt are those that I discuss in my stories as those who refuse to consider that they were involved in anything evil/damaging at all.  My hope and prayer is that these will hear Jesus' knock and respond in honest repentance as a result of seeing themselves portrayed in one of these stories.

   There are those, on the other hand, who feel very alone, broken, and confused.  They were totally committed (emotionally) and spent decades in morbid self introspection in attempts to "kill their inner selves." A kind of "spiritual bulimic" caught up in a "cycle" of inner purging that never seems to create the "pure heart" that they believe God demands of them.  They can benefit here from learning that they are not crazy, that there are those that understand how they feel, and that there is hope in God's grace.

  Yes, there are those who came out to the meetings who were not sucked into the depths of Assembly teaching and practices.  These will have a hard time understanding what the big deal is, but the ability to understand how this evil works in religious humans is not without it's benefits even for these.  Maybe one of my future stories here will relate an example re. how this could be so.

  In closing, I do believe that I am involved in a ministry that attempts to focus on the kind of needs that I outline above.  I do not suggest that everyone must join the WP bandwagon, nor do I suggest that those that disagree with me are on the side of evil.  I am passionate about what I do, and do it believing that it reflects God's attitude toward those hurt by abusive groups.  It is my sincere prayer that these will find that Jesus is indeed their best friend and loves them very much (that is the Pilgrim part).

                                                  God Bless,  Mark C.   

[Oscar]

Mark,

A few comments:

1. First of all, I think what you are doing is helpful to many.  I hope you continue.

2. I feel that you have much insight into the ways people were captured and damaged by the assembly.  Seeing the assembly experience as another manifestion of an ancient problem that has been infecting Christians since the beginning helps to answer the question, "why me?"

3. You have given much thought to how people become trapped into this sort of thing.  You could very well open some eyes and help people escape.  You do not, however, give much attention to how a person can recover from the effects of legalism once he/she has seen the problem.  You might give this some thought.

4. Depression is frequently a sign of having unresolved fear or anger that has been supressed from consciousness.

5. Are you sure you are the same Mark Campbell that came to that Bible study in my garage all those years ago?  That one had long stringy oily hippie hair, a scraggly beard, holes in his T-shirt and jeans, worn out construction boots, and a dull "no one home" look in his eyes.  You the same guy?   

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

[vernecarty]

Be encouraged Mark.
Final closure on matters relating to our assembly experience is not so much a destination as it is a process.
The fact that many of us have come out of such a system and gone on to lead healthy spiritual lives with our faith intact, and to establish loving families and raise well-adjusted children is testimony to the remarkable grace of Almighty God.

The expectation is that our own families should have turned out the way George and Betty's did!

The two big questions that occasionally haunt me are :

1. Why didn't I see it earlier?
2. Why didn't others see it earlier?

The answers to both questions are yes and yes.

I did see it and so did others. The great mystery is in why we responded to what we clearly saw in the way that we did.

I still remember the remarkable fury that was unleashed in my own soul, when in the midst of the initial revelations about Geftakys and the assemblies, we had some on this very BB continue to insist that he was "The Lord's servant."
I came to realise that the depth of my feeling about this was not so much that others made this contention, but that I once also did.

My anger was nothing but a camouflage for my own shame.

Confession is good for the soul.

Your own labor notwithstanding, there are some who, in spite of the evidence of their own eyes, will never admit to the true nature of George Geftakys and the house that he built.
I was tremendously struck by Tom Maddux's reporting of Jim Hayman's respnse to his exhortation regarding the part the leadership played in the destruction of so many lives.
In a strange way it also confirmed a personal theory of mine on the entire matter.

My suspicion is that those who are going to recover from their assembly experience have already done so.
We can only entreat the mercy of God on the rest...
God richly bless and keep His own...
Verne

[Oscar]

Verne,

You said:

My suspicion is that those who are going to recover from their assembly experience have already done so.
We can only entreat the mercy of God on the rest...
God richly bless and keep His own...

You could very well be correct in this assessment.     

But I hope not. 

Thomas Maddux

[Mark C.]

Hello Tom and Verne!

  Tom: Your recollection of my former hippie look from over 30 years ago is accurate, but was only a disguise I assumed in order to gather material for my journalistic work here for the BB!   If you could only see me now in my true state I would be beardless, have short oily air, and large holes in that hair (vs. the clothing).---- of course, I still have the "nobody home look in my eyes!!"

   I am thankful for your input (also from others) and would certainly invite all to chime in with what they believe to be needed additions to what I post.  If, for instance, I am telling one of these Assembly bio's just pop-in with what you think is missing that might help the one I'm writing about.

 It could be that I don't really have a solution for the individual I'm considering and what you have to say could pull my hero (or anti-hero) out of the fire.  There will be those that won't really be able to understand why my character is struggling at all with an issue, and for these they may be tempted to just drop a bible promise on them or offer a simplistic slogan type answer (like, "rejoice brother" ). 

 A lot of what I write comes as a response from emails, and other contact I've had with former members of the Assembly and similar groups.  It seems it takes a great deal of conversation with many of these to persuade them to even listen to my point of view.  I don't get to the solution with them because they are not convinced they even need the cure!   This has caused me to place my emphasis on the poison vs. discussing the antidote.  It seems that when I can get someone to agree that the Assembly was a "toxic environment" they will eagerly find the cure that God provides.

  I will respond with more later---got to go.    God Bless,  Mark C.
   

[vernecarty]

Verne,

You said:
"My suspicion is that those who are going to recover from their assembly experience have already done so.
We can only entreat the mercy of God on the rest...
God richly bless and keep His own..."


You could very well be correct in this assessment.     

But I hope not. 

Thomas Maddux

So do I. The following insightful (and accurate, in my view) quote by Mark provides the reason for my pessimism in this regard:

  I don't get to the solution with them because they are not convinced they even need the cure!

Verne

[Mark C.]

Hi Verne!

  I'm sorry for not directly responding to your last post to me, but I was called away from the computer and as such didn't finish the post.  I wanted to specifically thank you for your comments and also ask you if you are still lounging on the beach down in the BVI's?

  You don't see much hope in reaching our former associates, and I'll admit it appears to be a daunting task.  However, there are a couple of reasons to hope, and one good one why we should try:

 1.) Prodigal sons, the One Sheep gone astray, and the missing coin:

   I know you are familiar with these stories (it is interesting to me that Jesus often used this method of story telling to communicate God's truth) and how God encourages us not to give up on the difficult person who is out-of-the-way.  Joseph and his brethren is also another great bible story that tells how abusive brethren can be recovered---- and not only this, but end up being used by God to his Glory!

      2.) My own discovery that God was always working to reach Assembly folk, even when I saw hard hearted rejection toward myself and others:

    When I left the group GG, his leaders, and most of the group had laughed off any negative criticism and all my efforts to start a dialogue were rebuffed.  I finally just gave up and figured that they would continue on in the same manner that they always had.  When Enroth came out with his books there was a little hope, but again their total denial of the facts and rejection of any entreaty only made them stronger in their resistance.

   It was truly an amazing work of God that outed GG and brought the house of cards down! It was proof to me that many of God's true dear children were in that group, and though it took more time than I would have liked, it opened a great opportunity to reach those who previously never had listened to anything other than the Assembly party line.

  The one good reason we should try and reach them:

   We know what it was like, what they went through, and probably the difficulty they are in now.  If we don't, then my bio's of former members provide an opportunity to see these folks in their present crisis.  We can empathize and sympathize with these, and hopefully lift their burdens as a result.

   As to solutions:

  The only kind of help I can bring is the same kind of help all former members can bring and that is described in the paragraph above.  I'm not a psychologist, theologian, recovery expert, or any other kind of expert---- just a Christian who was in a group gone wrong who has a level of understanding not available to those outside of that experience.  I can use my own struggles with issues since leaving the Assembly as hopefully a means of helping those who can relate to that struggle.

  A good example of how this works is seen in the group called Alcoholics Anon. (AA).  This group has had tremendous success in helping drunks stay off of alcohol, and they do so without using "expert" teachers/leaders/therapists/etc.
 
  How? 1.) Honesty re. the fact of their weakness:

  Even though many of us would consider ourselves completely over our Assembly past and never prone to these kind of failures again there are things that were built into our souls that allowed us to get sucked into that particular kind of deception: ie, pride, desire for love and acceptance, etc.  It is best to face up to these weaknesses we have and be honest with them or they may surprise us by popping up one day in a different way.  Peter, after Christ arose and made him an Apostle, fell back into his particular weakness (described in Gal. 2) of wanting to please "the brethren" vs. standing for liberty in grace.  It is my opinion that these tendencies will always be a thorn in our flesh and as such should cause us to maybe say, "Hi, I'm Mark and I'm a recovering Assemblyite" ( Pun intended, but not altogether so.)

  2.) Support from others who have had similar problems in their lives:

   This kind of support for AA participants is primarily emotional, not lectures by those skilled in the science of recovery.  In the same way, former members of the Assembly don't really need just lectures on doctrinal truth re. grace, and indeed some of these are so confused they can't really understand such things.  It has been my experience that many former members, for all their bible study, seminars, etc. have a very poor true knowledge of any kind of coherent theology.  This is because their religion was/is almost entirely emotionally/experiencially/devotionally based. 

  We should encourage and teach the truth of the Gospel of grace to these, but I think with some we need to approach via methods that bring that truth in a means they can more readily grasp and find helpful for their daily lives.  As is said in the last post, just quoting scripture speaks to them as GG did because they hear GG's interpretation with that verse.  With these stories in WP I hope we can see the characters discoverying the real meaning of words like, "love, grace, mercy, joy, etc."  I will try and include more happy endings like this.

   The solutions available to former members can be rather complicated, as we can see in the above, and while some will not have a difficulty with reading their bibles, they may struggle with being honest, for an example, with some bad habit (drinking, porn., controlling others, etc.).  For deep struggles with depression, etc. these should indeed get professional help, but for the typical daily human stuff we can be a great help to one another (the NT is filled with this kind of ministry).

                                                      God Bless,  Mark C. 

admin edit: fixed broken tags

[Mark C.]

  I wanted to respond to one other thing that was brought up by Summer and Tom in their posts here, and that was regarding the topic of "legalism" and the Assembly.

  Legalism certainly was a problem in the group, but this was only a sub-set of a much larger problem that was present.   A performance based relationship can just be based on an individual's erroneous understanding of the bible, apart from being involved in any kind of group, though these kind of false teachings usually find their source in some kind of organization.  In the Assembly, the damage to the individual member was much more than just the result of personal legalism, as it was taught that acceptance by God was not just via compliance to individual rules of conduct, but "faithfulness" to the group itself; God became the group, and the leaders the final authority as to how one stood before God!  

  Yes, we were told the leaders made mistakes, but it was also said that, "if we submitted to God's authority and obeyed our leaders, as the NT teaches with wives submitting to husbands, God would protect us and eventually exalt us.  Failure to do so would place us outside of the covering and lead to our eventual ruin!"  Also in that group dynamic was the powerful soul destroying mechanism of the double standard.  Terrible dishonesty was actually promoted as a means, it was said, "to protect the unity, not provide an opportunity for the devil, ad nauseaum."  

   The above is much worse than just a legalistic view of the bible, which is bad enough, because it can really do a deeply damaging number to one's conscience.  Yes, legalism also can make one deny what is really going on inside of them and promote a phony actors religious portrayl, but combine this with the group pressures that a cult has and you can really create some monstrous kind of people.
 
  Anyone inside of these groups whose normal human conscience senses that something is wrong and tries to publicaly raise any dissent is violently excoriated and rejected as the ultimate evil person!  On what basis? The "greater good" of achieving God's will which is vested in his only true church on this earth!  Of course, there will those on the fringes of these groups who have their doubts, or because of some other training and associations don't buy this message hook, line, and sinker.  Since the Assembly used Christian language from the bible there were some (especially those with some previous Christian experience) who didn't accept the GG notion of the one true church.  When they heard, "keep the unity" they understood it was "the unity of the faith", not the unity of GG's ministry.

  However, for many, they were pulled into the life transforming (in a negative way) group dynamics that have deeply hurt them---- even though it has been many years since they left the group.  Just because we accept the facts that we have been damaged and the injuries from the past still are bothering us, this does not mean to be a "wounded pilgrim" is to be an eternal victim---- my view is not to support a continual recollection of the pain that keeps one forever a victim of their past.  However, if you presently have trouble in your soul, as a former member, you need to try to face the facts and find some solutions. This is the opposite of "victimhood," and would be better characterized as facing the facts and taking responsibility for my past.

  This means, as it did in Paul, that we can use these past weaknesses as a way to discover God's grace working in us in a very practical way (it is one thing to have a theoretical understanding of sin and grace and another altogether to see that sin in your own life and experience through God's help and healing in daily life). As in, identifying in my own life how I violated my conscience in the group by keeping silent when I should have spoken out, covered up the sins of the leaders, hid my own sin in an effort to earn acceptance of the group, etc.  Some may object to my opinion re. the need for identification of how an individual went along with the program (my sin) because they don't feel responsible as they were deceived by GG into doing what they did.  If we didn't have any responsibility then we could claim to be 100% victims, but a cult is made up of leaders and members and each has a part to play---- in other words, there is a fit between those that make and those that are made (I don't mean to say all are equally culpable-- there are abused and abusers in this scenario)

  We may be afraid to look at this honestly because we want to believe better about ourselves, but this desire to feel better about self is at the root of the whole problem.  It's okay to accept the fact that you were deceived, a coward at times, dishonest, etc. because you are just admitting the truth about what it means to be a human.  We, of course, had some noble and good motives working in us as well, and if we have the Holy Spirit in us we can be thankful to God for that, and acknowledge this fact as well. The truth is, it is a wonderful discovery to know that we don't have to pretend anymore and that God values you not because of your good/strong character traits, but solely on His unconditional love for you-- the sinner!

    This, in the end, is a very positive discovery and one that we should not avoid because in avoidance we will miss a wonderful opportunity to learn from our mistakes and this insight from our past will make us a respository of blessing for other Christians that will see in us the mighty working of grace!

                                                                    God Bless,  Mark C.  

admin edit: fixed broken bold tag