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Author Topic: QUESTION OF THE DAY/OPINIONS WELCOME  (Read 103485 times)
lenore
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« on: May 21, 2004, 06:57:52 am »

THIS IS A SITE:

 :)ASK A QUESTION: STATE "JUST A THOUGHT"
 

HOW MANY OF YOU TRULY RESEARCH THE BIBLE?
READ FROM COVER TO COVER, IN SEQUENCE ORDER, GLEANED FROM IT.  NOT JUST A DAILY DEVOTIONAL, OR BIBLE STUDY EXERCISE.
JUST TO DO IT TO LEARN FROM COVER TO COVER, WHO JESUS OF THE BIBLE IS.?

Not because you had to , to prove what a good Christian you are.
Because you loved the stories, words, .
HOW MANY , of you have took, verse by verse, and asked God to tell you what was meaning this verse, what was the purpose why this particular verse was saved for us, to use.
Who were these words spoken to . Why were they spoken to these groups of people at the time. Why did these people needed to hear these words.
In  2 Tim. 3:16-17:

ALL SCRIPTURE IS GIVE BY INSPIRATION OF GOD(NKJV)
The NIV says All scripture is God Breathed and is useful
for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. So that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

The Message gets to the point:
Every part of Scripture is God Breathed and useful one way or another, showing us truth, exposing our rebellion, correcting our mistakes, training us to live God's way through the Word, we are put together and shaped up for the tasks God has for us.


So if God's word is supposed to be useful in our lives.
We believe it is the Word of God, that he has breathed life into pages of the books we now have the priviledge of reading.
That shows the consequences of walking a sinful life, and wear we can get the necessary help from the Salvation of the Lord.  Every word on every page guides to the truthfulness of our Lord, in keeping his promises . It is used to train us , how to seek God in those pages, how to ask God for assistance,
how God guides us over the next corner of our journey with him, how read and understand what he is really saying, help us to recognize the truth from the lie.
Show us his LOVE FOR HIS CHILDREN, show us what we need to do , and how to do it.  To leave us on our own, no  by eqipping us .

SEE WHERE I AM GOING WITH THIS.

WANT TO GIVE IT A WHIRL .

FEEDBACK IS MOST WELCOME
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Oscar
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« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2004, 11:02:19 am »

Lenore,

I have read through the Bible a number of times.  I used to try to do it yearly.  I hadn't done it for a long time, but I bought a new NIV and a new NASB last year, so I read all the way through the NIV.

I enjoyed it very much.  Readability was a primary goal of the translators.  I has some problems, but I liked it much better after I had read it.

However, I don't ask God to tell me what each verse means.  I am no mystic.  

There are some verses that no one knows the meaning of.  An example is the passage in I Corinthians that speaks of being baptised for the dead.  I know that reference Bibles and commentaries try to explain it, but no one really knows what they were thinking when they did it.

Another example is where it talks about Nicolaitans at Ephesus in Revelation 2.  No one really knows who they were.  There are some traditional interpretations, but there is no record of these folks, so it is all conjecture, other than to say that they had some moral problem or other.

All scripture is for us.  But all scripture is not to us.  The Bible was written to audiences.  Ancient Hebrews, Jewish Christians in the first century, particular churches.  It contains different kinds of literature, history, poetry, apocalypses, moral instruction, doctrinal teaching and so on.  Each type, or "genre" has its own rules for understanding it.

The big question for understanding the Bible is: "What did the original hearers understand this when they heard/read it?"

2 Peter has a few words that have never been found in any other book or inscription.  So, other than guessing from the context, no one can say for sure what they mean.

People have been discussing and arguing about the warning passages in Hebrews for centuries.  Again, no one is sure.  Generally, people's theological system determines what they think.  People that beleive that you can lose your salvation see warnings against that.  Reformed people see them as warnings about something that can't happen, but that make you serious.  And so on and on.

If all we had to do was "ask God to tell us", I doubt that there would be any differences of opinion by now.

The Holy Spirit is given to all believers.  He makes us capable of understanding spiritual truth.  But there is no guarantee that we will understand everything.  That is why we must continue to read, think, study and learn.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux
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Arthur
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« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2004, 08:34:02 am »

Hi Tom, that was a very balanaced well-written post, thank you.

In response to the last bit, a question I have is why is it that the truth is not readily apparent (back to that whole Razor thingy)?  And, if the Spirit of God lives in us, why do we not clearly see the truth always?  Jesus said that the when the comforter comes, "he will guide you into all truth."  But that doesn't seem to be the case.  I guess I'm kinda dissapointed.  Also, Jesus said "If you continue in my word, you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth will set you free." So, how long will it take until the light dawns upon us?   The truth seems so elusive, subjective, and mutable.  No wonder pilate asked what he did.  You say there are things in the Bible that no one knows what it means.  I thought so.  I hate it when people fake the answers.  It's probably because after all those years of studying and also having a title, they'd better come up with something or look stupid, lol.  But still, I am disappointed that there are unknowns.  


Arthur
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Oscar
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« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2004, 10:26:14 am »

Hi Tom, that was a very balanaced well-written post, thank you.

In response to the last bit, a question I have is why is it that the truth is not readily apparent (back to that whole Razor thingy)?  And, if the Spirit of God lives in us, why do we not clearly see the truth always?  Jesus said that the when the comforter comes, "he will guide you into all truth."  But that doesn't seem to be the case.  I guess I'm kinda dissapointed.  Also, Jesus said "If you continue in my word, you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth will set you free." So, how long will it take until the light dawns upon us?   The truth seems so elusive, subjective, and mutable.  No wonder pilate asked what he did.  You say there are things in the Bible that no one knows what it means.  I thought so.  I hate it when people fake the answers.  It's probably because after all those years of studying and also having a title, they'd better come up with something or look stupid, lol.  But still, I am disappointed that there are unknowns.  


Arthur

Arthur,

A few thoughts in reply:

1. Jesus promised the apostles that the Holy Spirit would guide them into all truth.  First, he was talking within the context of salvation and living for God.  I don't think the HS told them anything about economics or whatever else.  Second, the promise wasn't to you and I, it was to the apostles.  We have what they learned in their writings.

2. The Bible tells us that we are to be renewed in the "spirit of our mind."  God doesn't take out all false knowledge and just plug in a new motherboard or something.  We still have a human mind, but something deep within us has changed.  We are willing to recognize our sin and need for salvation.  We are willing to "all be taught of God."  We still must learn to walk with God.

3. Our capacity to aprehend truth is limited.  We are finite beings, and God, the source of all truth, is infinite.  We can't really even understand what that means.  Theologians speak of the "perspicuity" of scripture.  The scriptures are very clear about how to be saved and how to please God.  Things like prophecy, church government, baptism...less clear.

Paul said, "we see as through a glass, darkly."  (Notice my memory is still filled with the KJV.  I don't think I will ever shake that.)  The good news is...."but then, face to face."  And..."we shall know even as we are known."

So, for now, we walk by faith, not by sight...maybe that's why it has to be that way.  BTW, I don't think truth is mutable.  It's just that we keep on seeing more and more details.   Sort of like penetrating levels of reality.

4. Many Christians substitute mysticism for knowledge.  I once had a woman tell me, "God told me to buy new furniture for my living room."  That sure makes it easy.  You never have to think your way through hard problems.  You never have to trust God when you aren't sure what you should do.  

But, you know, Arthur...when you have had to trust God in some dark time, and then looking back you see how he kept his promises and was giving you understanding even when you didn't want to see it...you realize that He is our Father and is training us up as his sons.

God showed me problems with GG and his "ministry" years before I was willing to receive it.  Again and again, yet I wouldn't act on it.  So, I was allowed to reap what I was sowing until I had had enough.  What a lesson!   I have learned to trust God, and that sometimes means trusting my own inner wisdom as I seek God's will.  So many times I have had to just make the best decision I could, and then it has turned out to be a good one.

Of course, there have been some "less good ones" too.  But you know what, Arthur?  I have learned good lessons from those mistakes.

I have always had lots of questions.  Many have been answered.  Others have changed, I saw that the real questions were different, so I quit asking the old ones and moved on to the new ones.  Since God is the source of all truth, I believe that if we ever understand it all, it will all fit together and be a wonderful testimony to the goodness and wisdom of God.

Every time I learn an answer, it leads me to the next question.  But I enjoy it.  It is an adventure.   We have no right to demand that things be simple, just that God keep his promises that He will never leave us or fail us.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

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Arthur
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« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2004, 01:12:09 pm »

So what are the next good, real questions to ask?  I think I ask the same questions over and over again.  I don't think I know how to move on to new questions anymore.

Arthur
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Oscar
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« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2004, 10:09:45 pm »

So what are the next good, real questions to ask?  I think I ask the same questions over and over again.  I don't think I know how to move on to new questions anymore.

Arthur

Arthur,

I think it depends on where we are.  I remember that years ago I was very preoccupied with two questions: 1. Which church is the right church? 2. How does God guide us?

The assembly experience caused me to re-think the first one.  You can easily see why that is true.  Instead of my original answer of "Where do they do it according to the practices of the New Testament?" my question has changed to, "Which company of God's people should I be serving among right now?" " Where should I invest the gifts God has given me for the years that remain to me?"

Regarding God's guidance, I gave up my fumbling attempts at mysticism years ago.  I beleive that God is able to guide me in many ways but that the primary ways are: 1. Morally through His word. 2. By teaching me wisdom by His word and by life experiences.  God is in charge of the universe, so everything is under His providential control...even the evil, though that is hard to understand sometimes.

I also have come to believe that the way God made me is fundamental to His guidance in my life.  The deep desires of my heart that persist over time arise from "who I am".  God is the designer of the human heart, and mine responds to certain things.  

It makes sense...God, who made us, leads us into purposes that are deeply satisfying to our hearts. (Fathers love to bless their children)  One question to ask when thinking about your life is "what thrills my heart"   "What do I love to do?"  For me, learning and teaching are real "cockle warmers".

That "go the way of the cross" stuff that GG, deeper life folks, and the PB's are always talking about, IMHO is wrong-headed.  The cross is where we get "into" Christ.  It deals with sin...not our hopes, aspirations and dreams.   That belongs to the realm of the resurrected King ruling through the Holy Spirit in heart and world.

The idea that if you hate something it is God's will for your life...IMHO that one didn't come from heaven.   That is how GG got people to do what he wanted instead of what their hearts longed for.  Yuk.

So, Arthur, the questions are, in one sense, all the same.  But in another sense, they are all different.  We are not all at the same bend in the road, so our issues differ.

Having said that, I would say that by believing God and obeying Him we place ourselves in the position where we can seek for answers.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux
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lenore
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« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2004, 01:37:21 am »

Lenore,

I have read through the Bible a number of times.  I used to try to do it yearly.  I hadn't done it for a long time, but I bought a new NIV and a new NASB last year, so I read all the way through the NIV.

I enjoyed it very much.  Readability was a primary goal of the translators.  I has some problems, but I liked it much better after I had read it.

However, I don't ask God to tell me what each verse means.  I am no mystic.  

There are some verses that no one knows the meaning of.  An example is the passage in I Corinthians that speaks of being baptised for the dead.  I know that reference Bibles and commentaries try to explain it, but no one really knows what they were thinking when they did it.

Another example is where it talks about Nicolaitans at Ephesus in Revelation 2.  No one really knows who they were.  There are some traditional interpretations, but there is no record of these folks, so it is all conjecture, other than to say that they had some moral problem or other.

All scripture is for us.  But all scripture is not to us.  The Bible was written to audiences.  Ancient Hebrews, Jewish Christians in the first century, particular churches.  It contains different kinds of literature, history, poetry, apocalypses, moral instruction, doctrinal teaching and so on.  Each type, or "genre" has its own rules for understanding it.

The big question for understanding the Bible is: "What did the original hearers understand this when they heard/read it?"

2 Peter has a few words that have never been found in any other book or inscription.  So, other than guessing from the context, no one can say for sure what they mean.

People have been discussing and arguing about the warning passages in Hebrews for centuries.  Again, no one is sure.  Generally, people's theological system determines what they think.  People that beleive that you can lose your salvation see warnings against that.  Reformed people see them as warnings about something that can't happen, but that make you serious.  And so on and on.

If all we had to do was "ask God to tell us", I doubt that there would be any differences of opinion by now.

The Holy Spirit is given to all believers.  He makes us capable of understanding spiritual truth.  But there is no guarantee that we will understand everything.  That is why we must continue to read, think, study and learn.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

I agree the Bible was not written to us,  but it was written for us, it was preserved for us, in every detail.

I love the old testament, except maybe NUMBERS.
When you read through the Prophets. It is amazing all the little detail, that was preserved.

This is son of so and so, who is son of so and so, and
the God called this prophet during the reign of the king of the northern kingdom, during the reign of the king in the southern kingdom.

No detail was forgotten.

SOME TIMES I ASKED WHY WAS IT SO IMPORTANT FOR GOD TO HAVE HIS AUTHORS  RECORD SOME OF THESE SMALLEST DETAILS.

You are right, every verse is not understandable, especially alone, they must be studies in the contexts of the  verses before and verse behind.
SO many people have taken just one verse and ran with it.

Forget or conveniently forget to include the verse before and behind.

WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY, because I like to read, read, and read. I have not absorbed. to allow it to transform.

I AM TRYING TO , I MEAN TRYING TOO, SLOW DOWN. Take it one verse at a time, let it seeping into my being, absorb into my pours and let God talk to me about what he is saying in this verse.

MAYBE I AM RIGHT AND MAYBE I AM WRONG. DISCUSSION  NEVER HURT.  You never learn unless you ask questions.

HERE A QUESTIONS FOR SOME ONE TO ANSWER:
IS THE BIBLE RELEVANT FOR TODAY, LIKE CERTAIN AREAS RELEVANT FOR TODAY, with the cultural changes, languages, society, laws of the land etc.
JUST A THOUGHT TO DISCUSS.
I HEARD THIS QUESTION BEING ASKED.
and you had to dig deep, you could not answer because it just is.
You had to give reasons.
THIS TYPE OF DISCUSSION IS WELCOME , YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN>>>>>HuhHuh??

Thank you for your words..



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Oscar
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« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2004, 02:30:51 am »

Lenore,

I agree 100% that meditating on passages of scripture will provide us with additional understanding, insight, and applications.

Some of the sections of scripture, like admonitions against evil and for faith, goodness and self-control are directly relevant.  All the moral teachings are directly relevant.

Some sections, especially in the OT, provide us with principles, examples, and lessons.  It is much better to learn about hard lessons from the book than it is to learn about them from bitter experience.  

All of scripture shows forth the glory of God.   THAT is relevant!    Smiley

God bless,

Thomas Maddux
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lenore
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« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2004, 12:59:13 pm »

MAY 24 4:07 EST:

HEBREW 11:22

Why do you think Joseph , gave those instructions to the children of Israel concerning his bones?

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lenore
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« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2004, 03:25:57 pm »

May 28: 6:32 Am:
MAY 31ST: 3:13 AM:

QUESTION FOR DISCUSSION: ANY TAKERS?Huh

SUBJECT: CLICKS.

In a church setting, should there be clicks.

Even in the assembly enviroment, there were clicks , little groups of people who stuck together, and it was hard to break into the inner circle.

In a small town like Arnprior, clicks, of  family and friends are common.

SHOULD A CHURCH SETTING BE A PLACE WHERE CLICKS  SHOULD BE ESTABLISHED OR ALLOW TO BE ESTABLISHED AND MAINTAINED.Huh?
« Last Edit: May 31, 2004, 12:04:02 pm by LENORE » Logged
lenore
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« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2004, 04:28:09 am »

MONDAY MAY 31 , 7:35 EST:

QUESTION TO PONDER FOR TO DAY.

IF JESUS WAS KNOCKING AT YOUR DOOR JUST THIS MINUTE:
What would you say to him?

Would you recognize him?

Would you invite him in?

Or would you keep him waiting?


DISCUSSION ON THIS THREAD  BEGINS NOW!!!!
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lenore
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« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2004, 09:28:01 am »

WEDNESDAY JUNE 2: 12:30 AM.

I HAVE A QUESTION, THAT COULD BE HOTTLY DEBATED:

REMEMBER I AM JUST ASKING:
________________________

QUESTION:
    ::)DO PEOPLE IN OTHER FAITHS, WHO REALLY BELIEVE IN THEIR FAITH, AND PRACTICE WHAT THEY HAVE BEEN TAUGHT IN THAT FAITH?
ie. the catholic faith, or the j.w. faith, or even the faith of latter days of Jesus Christ.

BECAUSE THEY BEEN TAUGHT THIS, AND HAVENT BEEN SHOWN DIFFERENTLY. WHO IS TO BLAME FOR THEIR SPIRITUAL CONDITION?

(esp. in the Catholic Faith, which is a Christian based faith), DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE NO BELIEVING CHRISTIAN IN THAT FAITH.Huh

OR DO YOU BELIEVE THAT  GOD  HAS PUT PRACTICING BELIEVERS INTO THAT FAITH FOR A REASON.Huh

So let the debate begin.  Who is up at bat first?

What would you like me to do? Wave a red flag !
Say charge!,  Say get ready, get set, Go!
Or Play Ball!
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Helms
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« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2004, 11:07:59 pm »

I think denomition names don't matter to God. Whether we are Christian or not is what is. Just about every religion has some gospel truth in it. As far as who's to blame for spiritual conditions, well I hate to say it but in a word them. No matter what we are taught we are responsible ourselves to discern the word of God. Which, I know puts us Assembly followers in as much water as far as condition goes. But salvation is what's the most important. God puts Christians everywhere to be an example right where they are.  To touch some specific person through whatever experience or belief that they are most comfortable with. God is the one who breaks all barriers and He makes them as well. We are to be approachable, not high and mighty. And example not a nussiance. I hope that I don't offend! Smiley
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outdeep
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« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2004, 11:47:09 pm »

Ultimately, God judges the heart.  I am not a universalist (believing that God saves everyone).  However, I do believe there will be some surprises on judgement day.

Suppose there is this single woman, barely making it and trying to raise three young kids because the father abandoned the family.  The Mormon church across the street hears of her plight across the street, gives her food, and rebuilds the roof on her house.  The woman is so thankful, she begins attending not knowing that they are any different than any other Christian.

She believes in God and Jesus.  She is told some things about Joseph Smith and Gabriel which she assumes are true.  After all, she doesn't know any better.  She continues on thankful to God for these dear Christians and prays for her children daily.  

The next week, she gets killed in a tragic car accident.  Now, is God going to send her to eternal punishment because she was told some things that happened to be wrong and she assumed they were true?  Or will God look at the faith in her heart that was based upon the best information that she had?

I can't say dogmatically that I know the answer, but I like to believe the latter case is true.  

P.S.:  The above may seem a strange case to you.  However, I have known some Evangelical Catholics and have every reason to believe that they are saved.  
« Last Edit: June 03, 2004, 01:12:37 am by Dave Sable » Logged
al Hartman
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« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2004, 04:25:54 am »



     Oh, I do hope there will be many surprises when we appear before God, and I hope that many of those who expect them the least will experience them the most and rejoice for them.  (Just think:  On that day no one will ask, "Are you rejoicing?") Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

     But I think the best course of action for any of us is to walk in the Light we see, and to pray for the disposition of those whose status we may doubt.  Speculation is idle-- "What if...?" gets us nowhere.
     In a recent discussion about Christ's redemption of sinners, I was angrily asked, "What about the Turk who dies having never heard of Christ?!!  Are you telling me that he will go to hell for not accepting someone he never heard of?!!"
     I don't take the bait as I did when I was younger.  The issue of the gospel concerns the one who is speaking and the one who is listening.  If the listener is sincere in the question regarding the Turk (or any other question), he or she will listen to the truth of Jesus Christ concerning him or her right now.  If not, then the question is a ruse to get the conversation away from that personal issue.

     But what about the Turk?  Is there an answer?  Well, of course there is!  But that doesn't obligate God to let us all in on it at once.  If I learn of the Turk, I will pray for his redemption, just as I do for the people I read about in the paper, see on TV, or drive past on the street.  If I meet the Turk, I hope to be able to tell him of Jesus in a comprehensible manner.  If God calls me to go to the Turk, I pray I'll have whatever it takes to answer His call.  But nowhere in scripture have I found that I'm responsible to explain the destiny of a fictitious Turk to anyone who asks me...

     (By the way, please don't misunderstand me:  I most definitely do NOT pray for everyone I see or hear about-- I only wish I did.  But I try to remember that the criminal, or the victim, or the passerby may have been brought to my attention for just that purpose...  I don't beat myself up for missing an opportunity-- I just ask the Lord to help me recognize the opportunities when they come along.)

     Now, where was I?  Oh yeah-- I think the best think we can do about all the questions that bombard our minds, our own and those posed by others, is to pray for the Lord's insight as to how they apply to us at the moment.  He does answer such prayers.  His methods may vary from one of us to the next, but He will lead us.  During this lifetime, we are never going to get "ahead of the game," but let's never stop seeking to know and love better the One Who is.

al


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