Am I Alone In My Emotional Struggles?

[Eulaha L. Long]

Hi out there.  I have open up to people on the bulletin board about my struggles after departing from the Assembly.  These struggles incluse Post Traumatic Stress Disoarder and Major Depression.  Does anyone else have a similar struggle?

[Arthur]

I haven't been to a pyscologist, so I wouldn't know.  I don't think psycologists know what they're talking about (don't they have a higher rate of suicide than the rest of the populace?)
No you are no alone.  It hasn't been easy for me, and I doubt for any of us.  What are the symptoms of PTSD and MD?  

[Eulaha L. Long]

Hello out there,

I just wanted to apologize if I am offending anyone by being open about my struggles with post-Assembly life.  I just need someone to talk to, and maybe it would be better if I just sent personal messages.  Again, if I have offended you, please forgive me...

[Oscar]

Eulaha,
When I left, the pastor at the small church I attended, along with an old elder who knew George and Betty when they were just out of college, listened to me vent my feelings on many occasions.  You probably need something like that as well.  
I would start with a pastor, and seek professional help if they feel you need it.
Don't be afraid or ashamed to do this Eulala, everything valuable is obtained by effort, (apart from God's grace).
The assemby and other groups like it crush and wound people, and healing can be speeded by good physicians of the soul.
Don't be afraid to speak openly.  There are many here who literally "feel your pain".  
May God bless you richly,
Tom Maddux

[reene]

Dear Eulaha,

You are by no means alone.  And you have not offended me, for one.  I'm sure many would say the same.  What John Malone has written to help you is sound advise.  He has been a friend of mine for 25 years, and I have battled the things you are describing even longer than that.  He and others ( especially my husband ) have done right by me.  They have supported my attempts to get through these times with patience and the truth of the Word of God.  Therefore I have avoided many snares and  instead discovered, in my weakness, that God is very kind and His salvation extends even to this.  It is very difficult, but here is where I really began to know my Savior.  He alone is completely sufficient even for this.  


Maureen Mancuso

[Mark C.]

Dear Eulaha,
  You have not offended me at all by bringing up your needs on the BB.  I have been praying for you and hope that you will find comfort through the Lord's help in your life.
  Please read my post in "Wounded Pilgrims" as I mention one of your post's and some of the controversy surrounding it.  It has been very helpful to think about these things and has cleared up some confusion I had re. the subject of emotional problems and finding healing for them.
  Many have written me privately re. the great help this topic has been for them and their desire to keep the discussion going.  Since it is a BB, and many different opinions are shared, there will be those who do not see the value of such discussion.  I would caution sharing too many intimate details as you can become vulnerable to more wounding from insensitive individuals.
                                    God Bless,  Mark

[margaret irons]

Hello Eulaha,

I can very much relate to your struggles.  I too had  PTSD and depression.  It will get better, Eulaha, even if just through process of time, but there are things you can do to help the process.  I think for me recovery has been a two-pronged process.  The biggest part of it has come about as I increasingly understand and believe what God has done for me in Christ--He sees me as in union with His beloved Son, and loves me and cares for me just as He does His Son.  There are so many facets to this, and how it has become more real to me, maybe I can share in more detail later.  

At first, I could only read the Gospels and the Old Testament, but there are lots of precious promises there that helped me.  (I had to read paraphrased versions to get around GG's voice--the J. B. Phillips New Testament, and The Living Bible.)  One of the first passages that I found and clung to was Ps. 23, esp. v.2  , "He lets me rest...."  I was totally burnt out on every level, and He so graciously allowed me to just rest in Him.  

This related to going to church, too.  I just wasn't up to much.  I found that the Lord's Supper was what meant the most to me, it so clearly speaks of the good news of the Gospel, and it was such a blessing to just receive it as God's gift, even if I had to sit in the back row and cry, and leave right at the end.

Reading Christian books has been very helpful.   The works of C. S. Lewis, and other  apologists like Lee Strobel, "The Case For Christ"-- works that helped me grasp the major truths of Christianity, not books that wanted to spur me on in my Christian life. I wasn't ready for any more of that.  (The odd thing is, though, the more you see of what God has done for us, the more you want to serve Him.)
     
The other facet has to do with ferreting out what are the buried toxic beliefs I have.  This is where counseling has been helpful to me.  We went to Wellspring, which gave me tools to begin the process, and since  then I have found a Christian counselor who uses the same tools to help me in the ongoing process of identifying those false beliefs (which come out in nightmares, among other things). I can still get triggered by an intense situation, but I can also get over it now.  For instance, reading the whole topic of "Putting J. Malone in His Place" got to me for about a day--it triggered the brain chemistry (old victim beliefs are tenacious).

It is kind of hard to talk about this on a post.  I seem to be just talking all about myself, and yet I don't want to fall into my weakness of telling other people what I think they ought to know or do.  Anyway, I hope maybe some of this is helpful for you, Eulaha. In Christ, God is blessing you and keeping you, and making His face smile upon you, and being gracious unto You.

Margaret



 

 

[Eulaha L. Long]

Hi Margaret,

I also went to Wellspring and received some much-needed counsel and rest.

[Oscar]

Margaret,
An excellent post.  
Tom

[Mark C.]

Thank you Margaret!
  Your post really was helpful to me.  I'm trying to understand the whole issue of learning to think the way God wants us to vs. the way we were taught in the Assembly.  There has been a bit of a controversy re. the part counselling plays in such a recovery process and your post shows exactly how counselling can help in our Christian lives.
  No doubt, we should be very careful in our pursuit of a counsellor, as there are those who do not share our Christian faith, and would guide us into trusting ourselves vs. faith in God.  Your post shows how your faith has grown by using help from those who find the soul's cure is really God's work and is achieved by recognition of the grace of God.
  I will post a thought at the Wounded Pilgrims thread and would like to hear what you think about it.  I have been gone all week and trying to keep up with the conversation here is difficult, but I sure have fun trying.
                                God Bless,  Mark C.

[Stillwater]

Hello friends,

  As to the controversy surrounding counselors, I just wanted to comment that psychology has come a long way since Freud. Freud's theories are untestable and unscientific. Modern Cognitive Behavioral psychology is based upon scientific observation, not thought-up theories. If you're going to say psychologists don't know what they're talking about, you might as well say chemists don't know what they're talking about either.
  I, for one, purposely went to a counselor who is not a fundamental Christian. Instead, I went to someone who isn't set on any one belief. This was because I wanted a counselor who would help me figure out what was going on in my head, not steer me toward a pre-conceived idea of what is righteous. I think that if we keep psychology in perspective, as a mental/scientific rather than spiritual discipline, we can gain a lot from its insights. We just need to take their language, "Trust in yourself," and translate it into our own belief system, "Trust that God has made you adequate for your life."

Heather

[Mark C.]

Hi Heather!
   I think we have a difference of opinion here, and that is okay!  I am not a psychologist, nor have I gone past one college course of same.  Whatever my opinion, you were helped and you didn't find a hindrance to your faith from your counseling, and that is great.
  Unfortunately, not all psyche. MD's use the cognitive approach that you mention.  Many use a variation of Freud's old psychotherapy that treats from a worldview that Christian faith is a problem.  Dave Hunt's book on the subject does a good job of showing the development of psychology to the present.
   It is also true, in my opinion, that psychology and chemistry are not equally objective.  I would say a better comparison would be engineering and cosmology.  In the study of the Universe we are dealing with what we can't see or measure easily.  In engineering we are dealing with what we can ascertain via our senses.  Our understanding of cosmology has gone through great changes as we look deeper into the infinite construction of the universe.
   God has place eternity in our hearts' and it is a depth that only God can plummet.
   Why, for instance, does one person, who grows up as a crack baby in the ghetto, grow up to be a responsible achiever and another person ends up in prison on death row?  Same circumstances, yet opposite responses.
   Why does one Assembly member commit suicide due to their failure, and other's see it as a lesson from God and learn to walk in grace?
   Why do some present Assembly Leaders repent for their involvement and others continue on in darkness?
   The soul is the special provence of the Divine and to try solve the above questions using the science of cognitive therapies is the same as searching the universe with binoculars.
   To try and put a Christian label on what the counselor says is similar to going to an AA meeting.  They acknowledge a "Higher Power" but don't lead individuals into faith in Christ.  The lack of clarity can lead down the wrong path and ultimately not address the real need of the person.  Of course my faith assumes that Christ is the way,truth, and the life; but in the area of the soul this assumption is crucial to finding help.  If I need a prescription from my pharmicist my faith will not assist his science, however there are psyche MD's who view my faith as my chief problem and will actively seek to destroy it.
   I know personally of such examples as I describe here and as such still advise those seeking help to go to places like WellSpring.           God Bless,  Mark

[Stillwater]

Dear Mark,

  I think we can agree on one thing: Different counselors will use different approaches. There are good ones, and there are bad ones. You need to be careful in selecting a counselor. I'm sure there are counselors out there who have a problem with faith or Jesus, but I think you'd find the majority supportive of faith. They support faith because their research shows that faith has a healing affect in people's lives.
  As far as the questions you brought up, no, psychology and science won't give you adequate answers, though they could certainly give you statistics and information to help you approach some of them. To get information, you have to ask appropriate questions, regardless of which discipline you are consulting. The Bible won't tell me how to fix a car, and psychology won't tell me how to get to heaven. Examples of appropriate questions for psychology would be, "Do these nightmares mean I'm going crazy?" "Why do I feel so numb?" "Is it unhealthy to want to be alone sometimes?" Psychology won't solve a sin problem, but it will solve a mental problem.
  Besides, I think that the main benefit of psychology is not in giving you information but in listening to you without judging you. For example, when I heard Brother George being boastful, I used to write it off as me thinking evil. If I were to mention to counsellors that I thought Brother George was being boastful, they wouldn't judge that as "thinking evil." They'd say, "Tell me more about that." If I'd said to myself, "Tell me more about that," in my Assembly years, I'm sure I wouldn't have been so blind. I think that counselors can help us to listen better to what we're feeling or thinking, and sometimes, I believe, those thoughts or feelings are God telling us something. (Of course, deciding what God is telling you is the realm of religion, not psychology.)
  I don't think there's anything wrong with incorporating psychology into my Christian world view, as long as it takes second place to God's Word. Even Paul did something similar in Acts 17:28, "as even some of your [the Greeks'] own poets have said, . . . ." Unbelievers may express their insights differently and veer off into error (contradiction of the Bible) at times, but that doesn't mean they know nothing of God, life or reality.
  As to AA, I think it's Christian snobbery to talk down about it. AA may not know Jesus, but they do know alcoholics better than anyone else. God didn't reveal himself in the Bible all at once. It wasn't until Moses that He even gave His name, so what is wrong with moving from a belief in a vague "higher power" to a more focused view of God? For many people in AA, believing in any higher power is a big step. It's impossible to move closer to God if you don't believe a God exists. True, people may get sidetracked in their journey toward God, but we all run that risk in our spiritual walks. I have faith that God corrects, preserves, forgives and restores those whose hearts He's drawing. We don't have to stay in a Christian bunker in order to know the truth about the one true God.
  To fully address their problems, alcoholics should go to AA (experts on alcoholism) on Tuesday and church (community of faith) on Sunday. Their daily lives should include BOTH skills learned in AA and the faith in Jesus which is revealed to the heart by the Holy Spirit. The only place where AA or psychology would be out of line is in contradicting a higher authority, the Bible, but they usually don't. They just stop where their expertise ends and leave issues of spirituality to the individual and his or her personal relationship with God. If a psychologist or other organization tries to step outside their limitations, that is the time for the discerning Christian to withdraw.

  Heather

[Mark C.]

Hi Heather!
  You offer very clear and thoughtful opinions and I hope you will continue to make a contribution on the BB.
   Your reply to my post did give me a pause in my thinking and I thank you for that.  As most Exassembly folks, I am still in the process of reevaluating how I view things.
   I certainly am not an expert in how psychology is practiced as I have never even visited a psyche MD., though I'm very cognizant of the fact that emotional health is a very important aspect of a healthy Christian life.  It seems to me that the Bible is clear that he wants us to consider our brethren's emotional well being as he commands us to "weep with those that weep" and to "comfort one another in the love of Christ".
    I am not of the crowd that thinks that AA is of the Devil or that Psyche. is demonic, but I also think it is wrong to divide issues of faith from healing of damaged emotions.  If AA helps alcoholics to deal with a bad habit that is great, but could that become the new "religion" of the addict?  This can become a huge barrier, rather than an awakening that will lead to a true understanding of the Gospel.
   Maybe the actual practice of Psyche. MD's is different from the official stand of the organizational leaders.  I know the Calif. Organization (name?) has published papers that support Homosexuality and certain kinds of pedophilia as being healthy.  Dave Hunt wrote a book about Pyschology and some of the therapies that are utilized which have an unhealthy mix of truly demonic influence.
  How have you gained your understanding of the present Psyche. practice?  Are you in the field?
   I thank you again for your insight.  God Bless,  Mark

[Stillwater]

Dear Mark,

  I'm not a counselor. My knowledge of psychology is based on books I've read, my own experience, conversations with friends, psych classes, and the fact that my step-mom is a counselor.
  I was grateful for your kindness in your last post. I hope my irritation hasn't come through in my posts on this. I've done my best not to cross the line between passion and anger. I can see now that you are truly willing to dialogue, so I don't feel upset at all anymore. Instead, I feel gratitude for being heard. Thank you.
  I have a strong emotional reaction when I hear Christians speaking ill of psychology because I have seen too many people go without needed help. Mark, I used to have a perspective very similar to yours, but my mind was changed in a dramatic way. I'll share the story with you.
  A very withdrawn sister started coming out to our campus Bible Studies. She was studying psychology, and we all knew she had a long history of going for therapy. One of the brothers and I were a sort of team to disciple her/fellowship with her. He told me about conversations where he tried to convince her that Jesus rather than psychology was the answer. On my end, this sister told me that she was considering taking antidepressant drugs. I responded by discouraging her from taking them. My underlying motivation was my belief that Jesus could lift her depression as He healed her life and that He didn't need help.
  A few weeks later, I had a rude awakening. This sister called me from the emergency room. It turns out that she was having terrible flashbacks. I spent hours with her in the emergency room. I also ended up taking her home with me. She wasn't ready to be alone. The loving woman from Lutheran Social Services told me that the most important thing I could do was to encourage her to take her medicine--she wouldn't get better without it--and to call her counselor to make sure she got in as soon as possible. I realized that I had been very blind in my spiritual pride. I knew the Bible, but I definitely didn't know how to deal with mental illness. I knew then that this dear sister would need help from someone who knew what they were doing, someone schooled in psychology.
  Pastors don't know mental illness. That's not what they go to school for. They go to school to learn the Bible. Psychologists go to school to learn about mental illness. My friend from the campus isn't the only one who's been discouraged from getting needed help. I think it's important for Christians to stop doing this to people!
  I want to clarify about dividing up people's problems. I can see how you would think that I was being overly "boxy" in my statements. It did sound that way, but it wasn't what I meant.
  To explain what I'm saying more clearly, I want to backtrack a bit and discuss the body vs. spirit issue. It's pretty typical in our culture to place the physical on the level of the body and the nonphysical in the spiritual realm. I believe this leads to errors. A New Ager may feel good and describe that as a "spiritual experience," when in fact it was only an emotional high. On the other hand, a Christian may place all mental issues in the realm of sin and repentance--the spiritual realm--and miss the soul level. The Bible teaches that we are three-part beings: body, soul, and spirit. A nonphysical issue is not necessarily a primarily spiritual issue.
  I believe that the best way to deal with any issue in your life is on all three levels. I am definitely NOT saying you should deal with an issue on only a psychological/soul level. I AM saying that the psychological level can't be neglected.
  I have fibromyalgia, and I have been to a variety of specialists to help me. A few of them include:

A personal trainer--physical level

God (praying for healing/growth through this)--spiritual level

A counselor (dealing with the emotional burden of disability)--psychological level

  I never regarded my personal trainer as the answer to my illness, but I knew she had a vital piece to contribute. It's the same with my counselor. And when it comes to God, well, God certainly can do miracles, but His usual way is to stay within the laws of nature He's set up and ask me to get the mundane, down to earth, sometimes imperfect treatment health care professionals provide me. He provides me with the insight to grow through my experience; the healthcare establishment does my doctoring.
  To respond to AA, AA has no intention of turning itself into a "religion." I believe the risks of not going are far greater than the risks in going. Of all the people I know who've gone to twelve step groups, none have moved away from God because of it, though one ended up eventually getting saved and baptized due to being able to feel safe with her "higher power." Please don't discourage one of God's precious children from getting the help he or she desperately needs! Pastors are not trained to teach alcoholics the skills they need to cope with their addictions. Pastors are trained to communicate the love and truth of God. I believe an alcoholic would get maximum benefit from an integrated program, getting help in the physical, mental and spiritual levels.
Ex.:

physical level--running to elevate mood and burn off stress, an alternative to drinking

mental level--AA, counseling to learn, for example, how to communicate effectively with family members rather than drowning pain over bad relationships in the bottle

spiritual level--repentance, prayer for strength to do the things learned in the lower levels, experiencing God's love and acceptance and learning to accept him/herself as God does rather than hiding in the bottle and making things worse

  I'm not suggesting that any of these things be done in a vacuum. The idea is to address all aspects of the problem rather than assuming that the primary problem is always spiritual.

  As to Dave Hunt, I don't know anything about him, but it sounds like he is a debunker. Psychology has had some bad things happen under its auspices. So has the church. The crusades? Our dear abused sisters? If you want to get rid of something, emphasize the negative. If you were from China and read a critique of the Christianity, you might get turned off to Christianity too. We had some pretty gnarly things in our Assembly "official doctrine."
  Lastly, I'd like to comment on homosexuality. It's true that the majority of counselors will not condemn homosexuality. This is because homosexuality is a moral issue, not a mental issue. Remember, I said that an ethical counselor will leave a person's relationship with God to the individual. In many cases, that means supporting the client's desire to pursue Christianity. In this case, that means neither encouraging nor discouraging homosexuality. Morality is the realm of religion, not psychology. I'm sure that if you felt this laissez-faire attitude toward homosexuality disqualified a counselor, you could also find one who considers homosexuality a problem. That'd just be a question to ask before you started therapy.

  Thanks again for your last post and for having this conversation with me. It's a special person who pauses and listens, then responds. Most people already have their response before they listen. Like you, I also do my best to listen.

  God bless,
  Heather