Does Hebrew 10:24-25 Really Say That Christians Must Go To Church?

[Heide]

Did you know that some people are finding out for the very first time that Judy was involved in an abusive relationship with her husband? Did you know that people are still finding out for the very first time about Brinda McCumber and reading her story for the very first time? Did you know that what happened in the mid-west in finally coming out to the light, for the very first time?

Do you know WHY this is happening? Because PEOPLE are talking about it. We were under gag rule for so long in the assembly, oh, don't talk about that, it's bad. STOP bringing it up and discussing it. Let it DIE and go away. You know the bad thing about something dying and going away is that eventually it stinks up some place else.

WHAT is it that has so many of you afraid of talking about what happened in the assembly? Is it the knowledge that you were duped? Or conned? Or used? You were exploited? Is your pride so high.... Thank God everyday that you weren't beaten...

Here is my two cents for Brent & Suzi. If it wasn't for people like them, you would still be stuck in the mire that you loved! If it wasn't for people like us who have been ridiculed and pounced on for standing up and telling the truth over and over, where would YOU be? This isn't a game folks, it is life. To say, oh my assembly was so far removed from George's touch is such a deceiving lie. If it was an assembly, it had George written all over it and it was full of lies. God did not call those men to look over you, George did. You bunch of sniveling cowards that saw abuse and did nothing about it except for get on the BB and point your fingers at the people who did something about it.  You be glad someone stood up for you when you didn't deserve it. You be glad his name was Brent Tr0ckman. If it wasn't for him, you would still be thrashing around in the dark thinking everything was ok. Thinking the assembly was just dandy!
If it wasn't for Brent who opened the door to the light so some of you could get out YOU would still be stuck. Shame on you for being cowards. Shame on those of you who left the SLO assembly after you knew the truth, after George's bogus repentance, and after all the dirty deeds came out. Shame on you for not having the courage to stand up and fight.

Heide C. Johnson

[vernecarty]

Did you know that some people are finding out for the very first time that Judy was involved in an abusive relationship with her husband? Did you know that people are still finding out for the very first time about Brinda McCumber and reading her story for the very first time? Did you know that what happened in the mid-west in finally coming out to the light, for the very first time?

Do you know WHY this is happening? Because PEOPLE are talking about it. We were under gag rule for so long in the assembly, oh, don't talk about that, it's bad. STOP bringing it up and discussing it. Let it DIE and go away. You know the bad thing about something dying and going away is that eventually it stinks up some place else.

WHAT is it that has so many of you afraid of talking about what happened in the assembly? Is it the knowledge that you were duped? Or conned? Or used? You were exploited? Is your pride so high.... Thank God everyday that you weren't beaten...

Here is my two cents for Brent & Suzi. If it wasn't for people like them, you would still be stuck in the mire that you loved! If it wasn't for people like us who have been ridiculed and pounced on for standing up and telling the truth over and over, where would YOU be? This isn't a game folks, it is life. To say, oh my assembly was so far removed from George's touch is such a deceiving lie. If it was an assembly, it had George written all over it and it was full of lies. God did not call those men to look over you, George did. You bunch of sniveling cowards that saw abuse and did nothing about it except for get on the BB and point your fingers at the people who did something about it.  You be glad someone stood up for you when you didn't deserve it. You be glad his name was Brent Tr0ckman. If it wasn't for him, you would still be thrashing around in the dark thinking everything was ok. Thinking the assembly was just dandy!
If it wasn't for Brent who opened the door to the light so some of you could get out YOU would still be stuck. Shame on you for being cowards. Shame on those of you who left the SLO assembly after you knew the truth, after George's bogus repentance, and after all the dirty deeds came out. Shame on you for not having the courage to stand up and fight.

Heide C. Johnson

How ironic!...Another sister to the rescue...Heide, as a brother I am so ashamed...
Verne

[Heide]

Just to clarify that last paragraph. The sniveling cowards that I was referring to were the ones who heard everything and still stayed to the very end. You are the ones in the corner cracking jokes about the very people who led you out. Kinda like biting the hand that feeds you. I am in  NO way implying the people who heard, read or saw and got out. It is YOU passives that I am going after. The deceived ones who are trying to say that the assembly was good and the LB's don't need to repent nor apologize for their actions.  

Let's talk character for a moment. There was an LB in our midst (SLO) he was young and hadn't been an LB for very long. When the whole thing went down with Dave & Judy, he was there. However, he had not been there in the years following up to the explosion. He played a part in some of the things the other LB's did. However, once he saw what was going on, he left. Now the turn around is, he went and apologized to all that he had hurt. I think that took a great deal of courage. I also think that this ex-LB has great character.

Now I ask you. Where is George? Where is George's character in all of this?  Oh yea, he took the money and ran!

Heide C. Johnson

[Kimberley Tobin]

I agree with Heide.  My experience in the SF Valley ever since the Valley disbanded has been disheartening.  

When GG was excommunicated, my husband and I had great hope that we would be reunited with our friends.  That having the truth come out, would have vindicated our decision to leave and that all of our friends who were still meeting with the assembly would come to their senses and "see the light".  NOT THE CASE!!!!!!

I was stunned!  These people, armed with the same information as my husband and I (which caused us to FLEE the assembly) continued to reject us and continue to say things like, "you didn't leave in the right way", "you are devisive and a railer", "you told so and so that you wouldn't talk..........and you are talking!"  These same people SIX MONTHS LATER are still not speaking with us.  Now I must say, like Heide, there were people (the little sheep) who, upon learning of all this information, began to question and when those questions were refused to be answered, they left and thus the DEMISE of the assembly in the SF Valley.  Still others, would have remained with the assembly if they could have "worked out the issues" and so are struggling deeply, though not shunning our family.  

Some do not want any negative conversation to be conducted in their presence!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  WHAT???  This is quintessential denial!  That's like an alchoholic who gets sober but says he doesn't need any counseling to recover from what made him drink in the first place.

I would venture to say that everyone of us who remained in the assembly for any length of time had a predisposition towards this type of gathering (i.e. problematic upbringing, drug or alchohol abuse, or just plain pride-wanting power and a place of position.)  If you don't look back at your involvement in the assembly and really address the issues, you are bound to repeat it elsewhere.  To not want to talk about it SCARES ME.  That is why I appreciate this BB so much.  It is a place to come and share your experiences and learn from others (I don't believe this should replace getting into a HEALTHY church - where you can get grounded in the TRUTH of the word.)

My 2 cents worth!

[mithrandir]

I have a question, and I don't know whether post here or to start a thread entitled, "Still Looking for a Church." But I have attended seven churches for varying lengths of time during the two years since I escaped from the Geftakys asylum, and I'm still looking.

My biggest beef with most evangelical churches is the worship.  I believe that worship should be a majestic affirmation of the timeless truths of the Christian faith.  I actually like responsive reading of Scripture and reciting the Apostles' Creed, for instance!  And of course, I like the ancient hymns because of the doctrine and instruction they contain.  But the "worship" favored by so many churches seems designed simply to melt congregations into a plastic emotional goo, so that the pastors can work on them without resistance.  I see far too many praise bands that are so loud you have to sit in the back of the "worship center" (what! no one meets in "sanctuaries" anymore?!), fronted by musicians with Taylor guitars (thank God I own a Larrivee ) strumming away while we all sing "I can only imagine" or "Open the eyes of my heart, I want to see You" ten or fifteen times.  Just on a technical level, the guitar work is so elementary that a trained chimpanzee could play most of the praise songs.  These songs are pushed on churches by contemporary Christian business, which requires churches to register with an outfit called the CCLI and pay royalties every time they copy a praise song for public use (including, I believe, PowerPoint presentations, but I could be wrong).  Having to listen to and to sing that drivel is one thing that makes me want to sleep in on Sunday mornings.

I have other beefs.  Some of the pastors I have talked with have been really nice people, but a few have impressed me as control freaks who tried to pressure me into greater involvement in their church.  If I had more time, I could elaborate.  Also, during the last election I voted for Bush, but not because I thought he was the savior of the world.  Yet I was angered by the presence of people outside the doors of the church I was attending at the time who were handing out "Christian Voters' Guides."  This same church impresses me as one that tends to preach on popular "hot button issues" during its main Sunday services as a means of packing more people in.  I'd prefer a greater emphasis on simple expository preaching of the whole Word of God.  Another thing about this church, and about other churches in Southern California is that they offer classes on how to bounce back after a divorce - even including how to find another "significant other."  I still think that divorce and remarriage is sin!

I think the divorce issue is part of a larger problem within the evangelical church, namely, a refusal to embrace the fact that life is difficult and that we can't always get what we want if we truly seek to please God.  Thus there is an unclear picture of what the Christian life really looks like.  I go to churches where the parking lots are full of Escalades and Lincoln Navigators and BMW and Lexus SUV's, yet their homeless food pantries are nearly empty.  (BTW, has anyone read "The Street Lawyer" by John Grisham?)  When people get tired of each other, they can divorce and remarry and the church will even help them through the process.  The Christian life is reduced to simply opposing abortion and homosexuality(by the way, I oppose both, so don't get me wrong), and voting Republican.  If you do these things, you can have whatever you want and God will be happy.  But is that all there is to our faith?

In the midst of such a religious landscape, I have trouble fitting in.  Maybe I'm being too cynical.  Maybe I'm being judgemental.  You might call me nuts.  And you may be right.  I may be crazy.  But if any of you have had similar struggles in finding a church that you can fit into or even a church that you enthusiastically like, please let me know about it.  I'd like to know how you faced your struggles and how you worked through them.  I know I'm not the only one who struggles with church.  I know of at least two other people who don't go to Sunday worship for various reasons, yet who like meeting with other Christians in a different setting.  Thanks!

Clarence Thompson

[editor]

In the midst of such a religious landscape, I have trouble fitting in.  Maybe I'm being too cynical.  Maybe I'm being judgemental.  You might call me nuts.  And you may be right.  I may be crazy.  But if any of you have had similar struggles in finding a church that you can fit into or even a church that you enthusiastically like, please let me know about it.  I'd like to know how you faced your struggles and how you worked through them.  I know I'm not the only one who struggles with church.  I know of at least two other people who don't go to Sunday worship for various reasons, yet who like meeting with other Christians in a different setting.  Thanks!

I'm going to repeat the cliche'   there is no such thing as a perfect church

One of the main reasons the Assembly was so attractive is because it was so much better than most other churches.  Worship, prayer, holy living, strong stands on issues...we had it all.

At some point you must realize that most of the NT was written to correct some really messed up practices by.....the churches.

If God is happy to be somewhere, than I feel safe there as well.  If there are problems, I can trust that He is able to either address them, or I have the freedom to leave when He leaves.

And yes, I have found two churches that I very happy at.  I have also been to three or four that I didn't care for....oh well.  In the final analysis, I think that you are using an Assembly filter or two in relation to your view of the church.

Brent

[moonflower2]

I have a question, and I don't know whether post here or to start a thread entitled, "Still Looking for a Church." But I have attended seven churches for varying lengths of time during the two years since I escaped from the Geftakys asylum, and I'm still looking.

My biggest beef with most evangelical churches is the worship.  I believe that worship should be a majestic affirmation of the timeless truths of the Christian faith.  I actually like responsive reading of Scripture and reciting the Apostles' Creed, for instance!  And of course, I like the ancient hymns because of the doctrine and instruction they contain.  But the "worship" favored by so many churches seems designed simply to melt congregations into a plastic emotional goo, so that the pastors can work on them without resistance.  I see far too many praise bands that are so loud you have to sit in the back of the "worship center" (what! no one meets in "sanctuaries" anymore?!), fronted by musicians with Taylor guitars (thank God I own a Larrivee ) strumming away while we all sing "I can only imagine" or "Open the eyes of my heart, I want to see You" ten or fifteen times.  Just on a technical level, the guitar work is so elementary that a trained chimpanzee could play most of the praise songs.  These songs are pushed on churches by contemporary Christian business, which requires churches to register with an outfit called the CCLI and pay royalties every time they copy a praise song for public use (including, I believe, PowerPoint presentations, but I could be wrong).  Having to listen to and to sing that drivel is one thing that makes me want to sleep in on Sunday mornings.

I have other beefs.  Some of the pastors I have talked with have been really nice people, but a few have impressed me as control freaks who tried to pressure me into greater involvement in their church.  If I had more time, I could elaborate.  Also, during the last election I voted for Bush, but not because I thought he was the savior of the world.  Yet I was angered by the presence of people outside the doors of the church I was attending at the time who were handing out "Christian Voters' Guides."  This same church impresses me as one that tends to preach on popular "hot button issues" during its main Sunday services as a means of packing more people in.  I'd prefer a greater emphasis on simple expository preaching of the whole Word of God.  Another thing about this church, and about other churches in Southern California is that they offer classes on how to bounce back after a divorce - even including how to find another "significant other."  I still think that divorce and remarriage is sin!

I think the divorce issue is part of a larger problem within the evangelical church, namely, a refusal to embrace the fact that life is difficult and that we can't always get what we want if we truly seek to please God.  Thus there is an unclear picture of what the Christian life really looks like.  I go to churches where the parking lots are full of Escalades and Lincoln Navigators and BMW and Lexus SUV's, yet their homeless food pantries are nearly empty.  (BTW, has anyone read "The Street Lawyer" by John Grisham?)  When people get tired of each other, they can divorce and remarry and the church will even help them through the process.  The Christian life is reduced to simply opposing abortion and homosexuality(by the way, I oppose both, so don't get me wrong), and voting Republican.  If you do these things, you can have whatever you want and God will be happy.  But is that all there is to our faith?

In the midst of such a religious landscape, I have trouble fitting in.  Maybe I'm being too cynical.  Maybe I'm being judgemental.  You might call me nuts.  And you may be right.  I may be crazy.  But if any of you have had similar struggles in finding a church that you can fit into or even a church that you enthusiastically like, please let me know about it.  I'd like to know how you faced your struggles and how you worked through them.  I know I'm not the only one who struggles with church.  I know of at least two other people who don't go to Sunday worship for various reasons, yet who like meeting with other Christians in a different setting.  Thanks!

Clarence Thompson

We're probably never going to find someplace that has a one hour worship, but there are churches that have "praise" services, that are not with large noisy bands. (Lutheran)

The one I usually go to has only 2 guitars, a piano, an organ and anyone else who wants to sing along before the service starts. After, there is a short praise session (after everyone else has gotten there). These songs are a combo conservative modern and old-fashioned hymns, for the young and the old. (local Bible church)

I've been to a CMA that had a worship service that I thought lasted about 1/2 hour.

Maybe the Midwest is more conservative? If I want more praise, I just do it myself. Play the radio, tape, CD, DVD and sing along.

The thing that bothers me is that it seems that only Catholics and Lutherans have the Lord's Supper more than once per month. There's no logic behind this that I can figure out, and I think there is a blessing everytime it is done (to say the least) and it's a clear reminder and picture of what Christ did for us, so why not every week?

Anyone out there have any opinions or answers that make sense?

Let's Hear it For The Lutherans and Catholics  ,
Moonflower

[vernecarty]

My biggest beef with most evangelical churches is the worship. 

I have to agrree. Most Sunday morning music is maudlin and mediocre. I left a CMA church recently and for several months attended a Bible Church where they have excellent musicians and a used a good mix of the old and the new. The contemporary songs they did tended to have more than just one, three, five changes if you know what I mean.
There are some very good and muscially interesting contempoarary artists. Michael Card's music is elegant and musically sophisticated, and also fun to play and listen to. I really love the words and music to "Asleep on Holy Ground".
The bassist's execution of his lines is slick and groovy and the whole arrangement is almost symphonic.
At the church I am attending, I particularly dislike some frustrated would- be- star getting up and singing to that disgusting canned music. I find it totally embarrasing! There is a guitarist also in the congreation who did some jazzy special music and I have been asking him why he does not play more often. (We got together and played some jazz) and I was surpised to hear him say that most folks there do not appreciate that kind of playing.
I occasionally play bass with the worship team and certainly don't hesitate indulge in a bit of harmonic intrigue and a occasional funk slap. No one seems to mind.
If you are a player, try and work with one of the worship teams to influene the repertoire. They might be responsive.

I have other beefs.  Some of the pastors I have talked with have been really nice people, but a few have impressed me as control freaks who tried to pressure me into greater involvement in their church.  If I had more time, I could elaborate.  Also, during the last election I voted for Bush, but not because I thought he was the savior of the world.  Yet I was angered by the presence of people outside the doors of the church I was attending at the time who were handing out "Christian Voters' Guides."  This same church impresses me as one that tends to preach on popular "hot button issues" during its main Sunday services as a means of packing more people in.  I'd prefer a greater emphasis on simple expository preaching of the whole Word of God.  Another thing about this church, and about other churches in Southern California is that they offer classes on how to bounce back after a divorce - even including how to find another "significant other."  I still think that divorce and remarriage is sin!

Let's face it. The evangelical community has now normalized divorce and remarriage.
It seems as if I cannot turn on the radio without hearing some divorced and remarried couple carrying on about their ministry to "blended families" and the like. Some almost seem proud of their position!
There was a time when Christians who failed in this way would show  humility by serving in a quiet and unobtrusive kind of way.
These days they seem to be front and center everywhere, some remarried more than once.
Without sounding critical, I really find this all heart-breaking. I am not saying that people who fail in their marriages cannot serve but that once used to be viewed as a very serious failure and would preclude public service. I think it  deeply tragic that those involved in ministry these days no longer always represent God's ideal. I don't know about other folks, but I personally want to be instructed by someone whose life adorns the doctrine. I suspect having so many of these folk serving in a very visilbe way evokes pity in some and contempt for the church in others. I find it very very sad. God derserves the best we have to give, and that includes those who serve at the altar. Were I to fail in my marriage, public ministry would be unthinkable; I do not think it would be honoring to God. Just my opinion.
Verne

[M2]

Hi Clarence,

Is it possible that you are using an 'assembly filter' in your quest for a new place of fellowship?

There is no such thing as a perfect church.  Where people are, there's problems there .  Even those disciples who surrounded Jesus and walked with Him had big time problems.  Peter suffered from foot-in-mouth disease.  They fell asleep during prayer time in the garden.  They all fled when Jesus was arrested; what cowards eh??  Thomas doubted the Lord's resurrection.  and the list goes on...  Yet Jesus associated Himself with this miserable bunch rather than the classy leaders who had an 'answer' for everything.

Recently someone had visited the largest growing evangelical church in Ottawa, but she was not impressed because it was not traditional enough like she was used to.  As we discussed it we concluded that even in the Lord's days it was the multitudes that flocked to Jesus, and the traditionalists were rebuked by Him for their traditions.  So maybe we need to change our view to, How does the Lord see it?

Re. worship bands, there are some churches where the bands are too loud and are featured in the worship service.  Other churches use the bands as accompaniment to help the congregation sing along.  The bands are not intended to be highly talented as one would expect if they were professional.  The worship songs can be worshipful to you or not; that is up to you.

Re. fitting in, it is a problem because most of us are joining churches when most people have established friendships.  Though we (my family) have good friendships which various church members, our closest connections are with ex-assemblyites.  In the large churches, one has to join small groups to get the fellowship and the Bible Study.

The evangelical community might be compromising on the matter of divorce and re-marriage.  I have not 'investigated' it as I have not had a need to.  However, I believe that there is one scenario where re-marriage would be Scriptural; this would be a change from assembly teaching on the matter.

Dave Sable's Healthy Assembly Afterlife article is excellent.  see: www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/TeachingPractice/HealthyAssemblyAfterLife.htm

God bless,
Marcia