civil discussion about the Assembly

[MGov]

Matt, Verne, All

Re: your recent posts on this thread.  Some assemblies in the Mid-West. East Coast, Canada, are not meeting as assemblies.  Hence, it would seem that though proximity to GG has played a part in 'assembly disbanding', it is not the only factor.  Some California assemblies are still meeting as well.
I am also wondering about the churches in Revelation; the Lord pointed out their issues and encouraged them to repent or else He would remove their 'lampstands'.  If repentance is a characteristic in the assemblies still meeting, then their 'lampstands' need not be removed.

What do you think?

M

[Kimberley Tobin]

Just looking at one assembly I know is still meeting in California, there is no "repentance".  They are teaching the same heretical doctrine and ways of controlling that was always taught in the assembly.  Members are told not to look at this BB or the main website-they are told it's all lies.  They are told not to have contact with those who have left, that we are divisive, etc.  Another in California is actually having GG there to preach.  Granted, it is a small gathering because those who had any convictions when everything blew up in January have since left.  

It is a scriptural principal that you can't put new wine in old wine skins.  The heretical teachings in this place was "old wine" - it was the law.  To try and begin to learn afresh the "truth" and begin fresh will only "burst the wineskins."  These dear saints who are struggling to keep things going need to go visit some healthly churches and be in a place where there is "new wine."

It wasn't like GG's adultery and controlling ways were the only thing wrong with the assemblies.  He taught Galatianism - works - Paul clearly showed this as "another gospel" it is not the gospel of Christ-grace.  To say that these "gatherings" are endorsed by God simply because they are still meeting, is to say that God also endorses the Jehovahs Witnesses and the Mormon Church (to name a couple) because they still meet.  ILLOGICAL!

Thank God, I am now THINKING, using the brain and reasoning ability God gave me, instead of allowing man to lead me by the hand blindly.

[MGov]

I agree with your latest reply to my post on this thread.  I know that when I first got saved and went to an assembly meeting, I knew the Lord was there.  So I conclude that the assembly was raised up by the Lord. The 'assembly system' came in a few years later.

So for those places still gathering it possibly boils down to:
I quote from Verne's last reply to my post here:
Each person must act according to the dictates of conscience and the leading of God's Holy Spirit. The thing that sometimes alarms me is that so many formerly involved in that minsitry have not carefully formulated any basis upon which to judge the ministry and therefore make spiritually intelligent decisions with regard to future involvement.

M

[editor]

Wow!

You mean we can discuss things on this thread in a civil manner?  No one is going to say, "Brent, you ignorant slut?"

This is a novel idea.  I think I am going to hang out on this thread.

I would like to address the issue that seems to have evolved,  "What is the church?"   We must first differentiate between THE Church, and the Churches.

The church is synonomous with all those who who are saved in Christ Jesus.  Wherever they are, these people are the church.

The church is NOT the Southern Baptist Convention, the Orthodox Presbyterian Alliance (if there is such a thing), Focus on the Family, or the Assembly and George Geftakys.

All those mentioned above could indeed have members of Christ's church in them, and most likely do, but they are not the church.
When a group of christians assemble together for the purpose of worship, prayer, study, or fellowship, the bible calls them a "church."  I'm sure most of us know that the word is ecclesia.  The question arises, "Is every group of people that gather together in the name of Jesus an "ecclesia?"

The answer is clearly no.  It depends on who they say Jesus is, and whether or not they gather for a sincere reason.  To clarify:

If I start a "church," and teach that Jesus is a space alien, and that he has given me new technology that will change the world, my "church" is not a legitimate ecclesia, no matter how many christians I manage to deceive.  The Heaven's Gate cult started out as a pentecostal christian gathering.

Perhaps I start a church, and teach true things, but my main motivation is to fleece my flock.  I get a big following, build a vast timeshare empire, and a theme park, and make tons of money.  My motivation is not sincere, I am a charlatan, and from the get go I only wanted to get people's money.  I used the Bible for my own selfish goals.

In spite of the fact that people got saved under my phoney ministry, my "church" is not really a church, but a counterfeit.  History is replete with such stories, and the end of such churches is always spectacular.

I think that latter applies to some extent, to George's Assembly.   If George was just one man in the church who had trouble, then the whole thing would be going on just fine.  However, the fact is that the whole thing was built on him, and when he fell, the house came down with him.

I find this ironic, because one of the things that George taught us that was quite correct was that a "one man ministry" was a bad thing.  I think George's life was used by God to illustrate this truth in a profound manner.

Brent

[Lurker]

With regard to this gathering, can there be any doubt? I am slowly evolving another theory about some of the people who were involved in this business and still are; it provides very satisfactory and  Biblically consistent explanations of the accumulated evidence...If I am corrrect, the theory's confirmation will ultimately be dramatic and unequivocal...
Verne

And what, pray tell, is your theory?

As for me, I also have a theory, that being that  the Geftakys group is quite similar to many others.

Have any of you ever studied the International Church of Christ?

The culture is a little different, but the issues are identical.  Their leader recently stepped down, for "pride and arrogance," and "family problems."  He was then forced all the way out by other leaders, who were then forced out by yet other leaders.   The movement is bleeding disciples at an alarming rate, and they are apologizing right and left for "past abuses."

Amidst all of this, they are insisting that the form and structure of the church remain.

What is so fascinating is that in both movements, the people who remain after the facade comes down, always insist that the problem was people.  (Elders, leaders, prophets, evangelists, workers, etc.)  They never blame the system.

In reality, the problem is almost always the system, because it was put in place by The leader.  When this leader falls, the movement falls, because the dysfunctional system can't work without the dysfuncional leader and his sychophants.

I am curious as to how you people view the ICOC?  That is, when in the Assembly did you believe that they were a cult?  Are you familiar with their doctrine?

Lurker

[sfortescue]

I'm not familiar with ICOC specifically, but the Church of Christ denominations in general believe baptism is necessary for salvation.  A good argument against that is Romans 4, since baptism in the New Testament plays a role similar to circumcision in the Old Testament.

[Lurker]

The ICOC is the largest group that practiced, "shepherding," or discipleship.  They taught, among other things, that their group was the one true church, and that each memeber had to be accountable to a leader, or discipler.  They were absolutely huge, in comparison to the Geftakys group.  However, today they are in steep decline, due to the recent excommunication of their long-time leader and founder.

Interestingly, they stressed morning and evening devotions, and personal bible study time, along with journaling and accountability.  They are considered a dangerous cult by virtually every apologetics group, and their doctrine has been roundly rejected by the evangelical community.  Yet, they read their bibles constantly.

The point is that false teaching is most effective when carried out under cover of scripture twisting.  The more scriptures that can be twisted, the greater the control that can be exercised by the leaders.  I sense a great deal of this among former members of the Geftakys group, although many of them seem to be making progress, if this forum is a fair sampling of ex-members.

Lurker