Strange Fire

[vernecarty]

Goodbye!

[outdeep]

The discipline principles of Matthew 18 does have its problems in the American Church.  Because our expression of Christianity is entrepreneurial (in other words, anyone can initiate their own group and structure it to their liking) it's really kind of hard to enforce the recognition of uniform discipline.

When I was in a church in La Mirada, we had to stand against an arrogant and sinful man who had an affair with another woman but continually blamed his wife for the problem.  To no ones surprise, when he was about to be kicked out of our church, he went down the street to another.

You kind of lost me on the Old Testament references.  

Shekinah Glory - I hope this doesn't decend on our church gatherings or we will all be crispy critters.

Strange Fire - Since the sacrificial system ended, I don't see us offering any kind of fire, strange or otherwise.  Isn't that the point of the finished work of Christ?

"The evidence of God’s presence among His people is the execution of that upon which the Church agrees" - the problem here is that you have different groups agreeing about different ways of viewing George.  Both sides claim this principle to their advantage.  What you are illustrating is exactly what I figured would happen with the Assemblies without George.  With no centralized authority with any weight, each splinter group marches to their own drum, ceasing to recognize the alternative groups that do not agree with them.

If George is in indeed in sin, leaders in other groups should work by any means possible towards restoration by helping him see his sin.   He needs a strong counselor, not a pulpit.  They should not be catering to his pathology by giving him access to an audience.  But, if they choose otherwise (and they will), there is not a whole lot we can do other than make a great deal of noise, pray, and trust that God will sort things out in time.

[outdeep]

What was my question and how did I answer it?

[Rudy]

The 'system' is in a state of confusion.
They are definitely doing damage control.

'God has not given us a spirit of fear, but
of love, power and a sound mind'.

[outdeep]

I don’t disagree that what the church does is an expression of what they agree to do.  That is indeed self-evident.  But, I really didn’t have a question about that either.

What my point was is that now that the Assembly has splintered, there is no way for the church in Fullerton (or the church on the web) to enforce their conviction of George’s discipline on the church in the San Fernando Valley or any other place.  In the past, all churches were brought into conformity because George carried a weight of authority.  If someone in St. Louis decided to change the meeting time from 3:00 PM to 6:00 PM, a strong system was in place to correct that swiftly and immediately.  Most everyone recognized the authority of the Work and the dissenter did not stand a chance.  

This centralized authority no longer exists and George can easily continue along, always finding some group of believers somewhere who will take him in and prop him up.  That is one of the pitfalls of church discipline in the American church in the year 2003.

As for Old Testament references:

I agree with you that the Story of the Old Testament finds its ultimate fulfillment in the Christ of the New Testament.  On the other hand, that does not mean that the application of Old Testament details have an exact, complimentary application in the present day church.  Nor does it allow you to correlate Old Testament events to modern situations.  What I understood you to be saying is this:

Strange Fire = Not dealing with George in the manner you think he should be handled but still meeting for worship.

Shekinah Glory = Something really bad is going to happen to them as a result because Jesus, after all, comes to these meetings (i.e., walks among the Candlesticks as long as we are mixing metaphors).

Good Fire = Those who deal with George correctly and then have a worship meeting.

Lampstand = Jesus is happy with this church and marks it down as a real one, not a fake one.

George used to use this technique quite often.  If fact, the most emotionally binding argument he had for “conditional inheritance” (the idea that we can be saved but miss out on virtually all of the benefits) was based on his correlation of the New Testament church with the Israel Exodus (referred to as the “Church in the Wilderness”).  

If you make this mental connection, it is easy to demonstrate the pitfalls of ignoring the silver trumpets (meetings of the week), or how a believer, if not careful, can die of plagues having never entered into the Promised Land.  Yikes!  If Israel missed out, then we might as well if we don’t try harder.  Heaven is at risk!

For those who engage in the sport of Bible interpretation and care about hermeneutical rules, this type of practice is what is known as a foul.  It is an illegal maneuver.  Though we all agree that the story of the Old Testament culminates in wonderful Messianic fulfillment, this does not give us license to take the details of Old Testament events and make application (or threats) at whim.

I agree with you that these post-Assembly groups should honor the excommunication of the Fullerton church.  However, throwing at them Old Testament spiritualization is not going to help.  They will, in turn, simply find a story in the Old Testament that they like and spin it the other way to justify their actions.

[Eulaha L. Long]

Is the Assembly "church" in Fullerton a real church?

[Bluejay]

The "assembly church" in Fullerton is more like Barnum and Bailey's Three Ring Circus than a "church".  

[wolverine]

The "assembly church" in Fullerton is more like Barnum and Bailey's Three Ring Circus than a "church".  

No more than this BB, "Anonomous Bluejay"...

BluejayFan

[editor]

Hello all:

Dorian Enterprises was the first corporation.  It's corporate status was allowed to lapse, and then was renewed in the mid-1980's.

About 2 years ago, (I think, it's recent however) AMR re-organized under Dorean Enterprises.  Note the spelling change.

George is not on the board of the latter.  The former has a really good international tax attorney, the latter does not.

I'm sure that the business conducted by both corporations is legal.  What is not clear is:

Where did all the money go?  What happened to the tithes and offerings?  Is there an accounting, and if so, who knows where it is?

Until George is willing to answer this, on top of repenting for the wicked ways he behaved,he should not be allowed any sort of fellowship.

The same thing goes for Tim.  Tim has made a career out of serving his father is the "Work."  How dare he take up the mantle of ministry again, without demonstrating a zeal in clearing up these matters.

If people want to follow either one of these men, they are free to do so, and I stand with the word of God, when it says that swift destruction will come upon them.  May it be swift and devastating Lord!

Brent

[Bluejay]

Dorian Enterprises, Tim and George Geftakys, and all of the money saints in the assembly tithed and gave for offering...

Where did it go???  I can't help you threre.  However, I can tell you where it didn't go:

1.  Public Speaking Courses for George and Tim Geftakys

2.  Personality Training for Tim Geftakys

3. Psychiatric counseling for David Geftakys

4. Jenny Craig Weight loss clinic for Tim Geftakys

5. Breath Mints for Tim Geftakys

6.  Any sort of wrist watch or timing device for George Geftakys...How could he possibly go over the "allotted" time every time he preached!!!