Reminiscings & Revelations

[Vandyyke]

    I have just finished to the final interview of my Oral History Project on the Assembly. I feel extremely privileged to have obtained the current-member-leader interview. As this material will be held in archives at CSUF and be made available for research and possibly publication, I feel as if I have completed the most significant work of my life! While working on the interviews both interviewer (myself) and narrator were amazed at the insights revealed in our discussions. Also the spontaneous laughter was priceless. I know now that research of this kind will be a big part of the rest of my life. A wish I have would be for current members and former members to be able to find some common ground to communicate on as I have on this project!  Yet, I know this is asking a lot!

[Mark C.]

    I have just finished to the final interview of my Oral History Project on the Assembly. I feel extremely privileged to have obtained the current-member-leader interview. As this material will be held in archives at CSUF and be made available for research and possibly publication, I feel as if I have completed the most significant work of my life! While working on the interviews both interviewer (myself) and narrator were amazed at the insights revealed in our discussions. Also the spontaneous laughter was priceless. I know now that research of this kind will be a big part of the rest of my life. A wish I have would be for current members and former members to be able to find some common ground to communicate on as I have on this project!  Yet, I know this is asking a lot!

 Congratulations Dave!

   When it is published I sure would like to take a look at it. 

The "common ground", that you mentioned above re. former and current members should be a desire to "speak the truth in love."  In other words, we both claim to be Christians and need a willingness to do what is right before God. 

The idea that common ground can be found by ignoring the facts of the abusive history of the group is a concept that is foreign to the bible.  In order to have a true reconciliation former members can't hold onto bitter memories with an unwillingness to forgive those that wronged them, but also those current members need to step forward and apologize to those they've sinned against---- true reconciliation requires both of these.

The above apology from current members can't be of the phony variety that says: "if I've ever done anything to hurt you-----".  For the reconciliation to be meaningful (and Christian) there needs to be a specific confession re. the details of the abuses that the current member was involved with against that particular former member.

Recently, a former leader wrote to me, and another former member, and finally apologized for supporting GG's reign of terror in the Valley Assm.   This former leader had clearly understood the abusive nature of the group, but never actually accepted responsibility for his part in those abuses.   We can blame GG, the system, and the power of deception (and for sure these must be considered in judging ones culpability), but without the humble recognition that my behavior was wrong and hurt others in very specific ways the relationship between "current" and "former" member can never be restored.

I realize that there are a wide range of current and former members; some of these were on the fringes of the group, others were involved in the central command in the Workers Mtg.  Some were actively supporting GG while others were passive in their responses.  Both of the above supported the agenda in the group----- a failure to recognize that the agenda was against the will of God (after all that we know now) and to understand the role I played in that erroneous purpose is detrimental to ones present day relationship to God.

I would love to have a discussion with "current" members, but not if the talk includes the kind of conditions that were involved in the Pasadena Assm. wedding situation.  In other words: "I, as a current member, will not talk with you unless you promise to renounce all past/present criticism of the group------".  The only "ifs" should be humble and truth seeking reconciliation in the pursuit of obedience to our Lord Jesus Christ. 

If a current member refuses to accept the kind of Christian entreaty described above then there is no ground for reconciliation.  On a former members part, we must not hold on to vengeful and bitter resentments, but it is not good for either party if we adopt a so called "forgive and forget" policy that ignores the need for honest repentance.

                                                                           God Bless,  Mark C.     

[Vandyyke]

"Speak the truth in love"


           When we were in the Assembly we were expected to live up to a standard that was unattainable in our natural selves. "The life of Christ." This was used to keep us in subjection. When we complained about anything the leaders were quick to point out, "Complaining isn't living the life of Christ!" and on and on it went.

  Marc do you think its possible that you are now holding them to an impossible standard? I understand what you are saying, why you are saying it but is it a solution?

     The only way I was able to talk to him was to leave my offenses aside. I understand that not everyone could do this....maybe this is just part of the solution?



   I know it is just wishful thinking, but wouldn't you just enjoy getting together with everyone, sit down, have a beer, and a good laugh at it all!!!!!!



       


   

[Mark C.]

Hi Dave,

  No, honesty is not a character trait that is beyond our ability to achieve.  Being truthful actually is the admission that we are not perfect and are quite human---- which is the very opposite of the Assm. use of the phrase "Christ likeness".  "Christ likeness", as defined by the Assembly twisted the phrase into a false meaning that first and foremost meant loyalty to GG and his absolute authority.

  I will grant you that it can be very painful to admit past sins, weakness, and failures, but the benefits far outweigh the temporary anguish to ones ego.  As Christians we have the sure promise of recovery when we allow entreaty to reach our hearts.

  I'm not asking former members to live up to a standard of perfection in their present behavior (that would completely miss the point); the question is whether former/current members are willing to consider that Assm. failures were more than just GG's immorality and how their own involvement contributed to the whole abusive experience.

  Completely outside of the biblical distinctions re. honesty (I raised this because current Assm. people claim to be bible believing Christians), being in a state of denial re. the true state of things is not a healthy human condition to be in.  This state of denial can be as true of bitter former members, as those who vigorously defend the group---- there is no axe to grind here on my part.

 It is not compassionate to adopt a kind of moral relativism where there are no clear discernable facts re. what went on in the group and my individual part in that history.  It is not more human to obfuscate the issues involved nor is clarity too high a standard to aim for in our lives. 

                                                                              God Bless,  Mark C.

 

[Vandyyke]

Again I understand your position,


      When I associated with Plymouth Brethren I encountered groups of brethren who were at odds with other groups of brethren, who were at odds with other groups of brethren. If you sat down and talked over the issues you would hear strong doctrinal arguments reinforcing their position, attacking the others position etc...

           As a relatively young man I sat there thinking to myself, "In 40 years do I want to be sitting here mulling out my misery, bitterness?" Why would anyone choose this?


My point Marc is I don't see your solution doing anything other than the above scenario.


There's gotta be another way,


             "Must-Break-Out-Of-This-Paradigm!"

                                           The Incredible Hulk!

                                                         

[Mark C.]

Hi again Dave,

  I don't think you do understand what I'm getting at here.  If it were just non-essential theological arguments (as in the Brethren example you raised) then I would agree that confession of wrongs and repentance don't even enter into the conversation.

  What I'm talking about is abusive behavior and the reconciliation between victims and those that had some level of responsibility for that abuse happening and continuing.

  A good example would be something like a dysfunctional family (you referred to the Assm. as your former family):  How do you make a reconciliation between a child that was abused by a Father?  Then there is a passive mom who stood by and allowed the abuse to happen---- how does the child reconcile with this mother?  Maybe there was an Uncle who saw the abuse, and was repulsed, but was weak and refused to get involved---- yet another situation of wrong that should be made right.

  These are all moral situations, not theological debates, and these moral issues have to do with the basic nature of human relationships (even setting aside all the biblical guidance re. how Christians are to relate one to another; these are just the facts of life).

  If you were to run into GG again would you embrace him and tell him you just want to "forgive and forget" the past and go out and have a drink with him (wine of course  )  . I doubt that, because you understand that he is still in denial re. his evil past----- honest repentance on his part can be the only ground where reconciliation can occur between both of you.

  "My solution" is not my solution---- it is just a plain factual representation of what it means to be an ethical person: that is, someone concerned with what is just.  I also don't suggest that former members wait in bitterness in the hope that GG (or those sharing his condition) make things right.

  A former victim of abuse can indeed move on to a happy and productive life without the benefit of the abuser ever admitting their sin, but that doesn't mean the abused must be forced into having an relationship with that abuser while they are still denying the facts re. his/her behavior! 

  I know that my above examples of a family, or of GG will not perfectly fit every single situation. A dysfunctional church (abusive organization or cult is another way to label the Assm.) is a complicated social network that was worse in some places than in others.

  It is not judgemental to ask former members to honestly consider their involvement in the group.  It is not a huge barrier for current/former members who defend the group to talk about these things with us here.  The walls are down on my side and I invite any on the other to meet me in the middle (if you prefer email to public discussion that is okay too).
                                                                     God Bless,  Mark C. 

[Flora]

I wholeheartedly agree with Mark C.

Doctrine and theology do not stand between me and current members. The only thing that stands between me and current members is:
1) the need for an acknowledgement of the wrong suffered;
2) the need for an explanation of why it happened; and
3) the need to receive a sincere apology.

I am happy to say that one current member contacted me by both letter and phone and gave me a very sincere apology. My fellowship with that particular current member has now been restored. But I long for restoration with the others.

Like Mark, my heart is open and willing, but they also must be open and willing. Only by speaking the truth in love and in humility, will there ever be true reconciliation and true fellowship restored.

Even in South Africa, they had the "TRUTH and Reconciliation Commission".

Lord bless,

Flora

[Vandyyke]

           
  I know that my above examples of a family, or of GG will not perfectly fit every single situation. A dysfunctional church (abusive organization or cult is another way to label the Assm.) is a complicated social network that was worse in some places than in others.
                                                                     Quote from Marc


    Marc, I appreciate the fact that  you concede it is complicated. The simple solution, "They are wrong, they need to repent,..end of problem"  is typical of what we learned in the Assembly. I think if you could just be objective, sit down and listen to one of "them" you might realize how far removed "them" is from any sin. You would might even concede that some of them have absolutely nothing to repent of.

  I know this is asking too much.   


   Marc, I did this project partly because I wanted to reconnect with "My old family" One reason being is that when I left I never achieved any sense of closure. I mean we didn't get together and have a big fellowship to say our good-byes. They didn't recount all the things I had accomplished while I was there. Instead I had to launched out all by myself, without any support and a nice advertisment that I was "leaving in darkness" to boot etc.... I also did this project partly because I wanted to justify my departure. In other words I didn't return as the prodigal son. I came back to justify my need to get married, obtain a career, (Somethings denied me in fellowship) I did this in part to take something sh&^%$ and make something good. And I did this partly because I think its a story worth telling. I love people and history. Along with American Colonial History, I think Assembly History will be a life long focus.


   So, I know its too much to expect, and in some weird way I think I'd rather have things stay the way they are, for as long as possible.  Did I tell you that I was shunned at the Music Center by my old roommate? Priceless!

                         

                 

             
         

[Mark C.]

           
     Marc, I appreciate the fact that you concede it is complicated. The simple solution, "They are wrong, they need to repent,..end of problem"  is typical of what we learned in the Assembly. I think if you could just be objective, sit down and listen to one of "them" you might realize how far removed "them" is from any sin. You would might even concede that some of them have absolutely nothing to repent of.         
         

 Dave,

  It is good to have this conversation, because I'm sure that your understanding of my views of current Assm. folks are the same as theirs.  They probably come here to read and think: "there goes that Mark C. with his bitter attacks against us again!" 

  I am not reacting to these current members out of some personal vendetta, or bitter resentment over how they treated me.  I don't think I'm a better person then them, higher up the heavenly ladder, or otherwise look down upon them in judgment.  I've tried to own up to my own sins here many times (pre and post Assm.). My argument is not: "I'm holy and right and they are evil and wrong."

 Yet, I do raise the facts of the history of the Assm. often and in these there is something very evil and wrong; it's past practices have done much harm to many.   The only difference between me and many of these current members is their denial of the facts re. the nature of the Assm. and their refusual to even discuss it.  The truth re. what went on in the group is clearly evident and abundantly documented. 

  However, progress toward reconciliation must involve a willingness on both side to open talks.  You can't put qualifications on a willingness to converse such as:  "I will talk to you only if you aren't negative about the group."  This refusal on their part to communicate is the big blockade to restoring our relationship.  It leaves them in a cult like mind set that refuses to consider the plain facts about the group, and their participation in that group.

  As an example, I once received a call from a Valley Bro., after GG's demise, who wanted to clear up any issues between himself and me.  I said, "great" and we talked some on the phone and then I asked if I could email him what were my concerns.  I detailed those concerns re. the very wrong practices of the group in a general way (it was not a personal attack).  He not only did not respond he blocked my address on his email and refused to respond to a phone call!

  It was not right when I was in the group to sit passively by in the face of denial of obvious wrong and it still would not be right to just give those still defending that evil a pass.  So, objective yes, but not without a moral basis for that objectivity. 

                                                                      God Bless,  Mark C.   

   

 



 

[Vandyyke]

        O.K. Marc,

         How far are you from Old Town? My wife and I visit quite often and maybe we could have a Corona?

[Vandyyke]

This probably deserves its own thread. During an interview a narrator and I discussed the appearance of "Mr. Wussy"  Mr. Wussy is a mama's boy wimp who seems to take up residence inside Assembly members without their consent. I will try to explain. Before I joined the Assembly I lived in my own apartment, supported myself, pursued normal goals towards my education and career. I had a reasonable amount of self confidence and didn't worry too much about the future. At the age of 18 I don't recall ever having any episodes of extreme anxiety, nervousness, doubt, fear etc... until after I joined the Assembly! This was due to the fact that Mr. Wussy, somehow, had moved into my personality. I'm not sure how he got there but I suspect the dynamics/teachings of the ministry, the intimidation of the leaders allowed him to get inside of me. Mr. Wussy would reveal himself whenever I decided to leave. I would say to myself, "I don't need this place!" "I don't need these people, I'm going to leave!" But then Mr. Wussy would protest! "How can you leave?" he would ask. "You don't know what to do!, where to go. what you want..." etc... Fear, doubt, anxiety would overtake my thoughts! I couldn't deal with it. After leaving fellowship back in 85 I came back!  Slowly all the fear and anxiety would subside. So When I left again in 93 I knew I had to deal with Mr. Wussy! I had to beat him down, "Grow up!" "get out!"  He tried to pull everything he could, "God will take you!" "You'll go to Hell!" "You'll lose your inheritance!" I would yell back at him, "So what!" "I don't care!" "I'm not going to live this way anymore!" 


O.K. so you probably convinced by now I am crazy! But the person I interviewd told me they had the same experience!   


A question I have, do others have this "Mr. Wussy" inside of them? Is this what keeps them "in fellowship?"

[Margaret]

Vandyke,

I think this is a great question. I know FAMs who have been out for many years and still have a terrible struggle making decisions on their own, when as young adults before the ass'y they had no problem. I like your explanation of an inner wuss.

But I really want to post on the original topic of apology/repentance.

It seems to me there should be diferent expectations for different people. If a current member is taking the stance, as the relative did regarding the wedding, that they won't associate with me unless I repent, then it's clear - there can be no reconciliation. But if I see a current member I used to be friends with who shunned me after I left, I don't have a problem with reconciling without an apology if they are willing. This is because I dropped my offendedness with them about it a long time ago, which happened because I no longer felt it as an injury. I had come to view it as an expression of them being in the ass'y mindset and I had recovered enough to not be threatened by the mindset (which took a long time). (I think it would be the same if I saw an old classmate. I would assume that kids are immature and hurt each other, but we are now grownups and the childish injuries no longer have meaning or power to hurrt.)

This is maybe like Vandyke just posted - in the ass'y we learned to be afraid of those outside, i.e. that was part of the development of the inner wuss. If a current member has become bold enough to be willing to associate with me, I personally don't need an apology for how they treated me in the past (although I would like one, especially if it's a leader). I just say hallelujah, this person has shed a little bit of the ass'y mindset. That's so great! Maybe associating with me could be an influence to open their eyes more, who knows.

Sometime soon after Jan. 19, 2003, I happened to see Mark Miller on the platform in a Fullerton City Council Meeting. Afterward he saw me, and came down--he didn't shun me--and I just gave him a big hug. Embarrassed him to death, but I felt such sympathy for what everyone in Fullerton was going through. A few months later (he was still meeting with Fullerton), Steve ended up working with him and Dan Notti on the timeline (Dan had left, but he didn't want to have anything to do with us). He came to Volt where we worked one time to drop off some documents, and we all chatted a bit. We even went out to dinner with him and Diane. On the one hand, it felt terrible to not receive an apology for how he had treated both of us before we left. But on the other hand, for them it was contact with the "outside", and they found out we didn't bite, we didn't infect them with demons, and we were actually walking with the Lord. It seems to me that was a good thing.

After the timeline was completed Mark didn't want to have any more to do with us - too painful, I think. He is now at Grace EV Free in La Mirada. Maybe someday we can actually have fellowship again, and an apology might be forthcoming eventually. For him ever to be in a position to influence people again there would have to be public and private apologies first.

Am I off the wall here? Maybe it's a matter of time - how long you have been out. Or am I still a wuss for not holding to a standard?

[Vandyyke]

Thanks Margaret,

   You said exactly what I was feeling but couldn't verbalize it.  If I ran into some people I think I would extend my hand and say, "Let's just let the past remain in the past!" Others I couldn't. I'm thinking about MM in paticular. A friend of mine from work attends Church with him. She has invitedme to visit (him and others) but I haven't forgiven him...yet.

[outdeep]

Mark C is correct in describing the true nature of repentance and making amends and it seems that he has a calling from God to help former members and leaders come to that place. 

However, for me, there is an issue of what I can and cannot control.  In my work in recovery groups, I learned that to make amends, I clean up my side of the street without expectation of receiving back.  Those I have wronged, I make it right to the best of my ability whether that is apologizing or paying back money or whatever is appropriate.  Those who have wronged me, I come to the place where I forgive.

Now, a word on forgiveness:  The book The Sunflower shows that there are a multitude of different opinions about forgiveness and when it should or shouldn't be given.  I don't claim my view is the right one or even completely Biblical but here is how it works for me: 

When I forgive George Geftakys, I am not saying that I condone the sinful and damaging things he has done.  I don't minimize the things he has done.  I am not saying that I will have ever has sweet fellowship with George.  I am not saying I would go out for a cup of coffee if he invited me.  I am not saying that I am going to take the blame for the things George has done.  What I am saying is that I am not going to let what George (or any other leading brother) has done continue to affect me.  In forgiving him, I am letting him off the hook so that their actions do not become a continued source of resentment in my life.  Resentment is bad for me.  It hurts me and makes me do things that I regret.  So, I forgive George and I leave him to God.

The reason I take this position is because of another recovery principle of honestly understanding what I can change and what I cannot change.  Is it realistic for me to stake my hopes on the belief that a leading brother is going to apologize to me?  Of course not.  I have no control over what the leading decides to do.  Why should I give away control over my life to another?  Why should my well-being and mood be tied to what this leading brother does or doesn't do?   Isn't this exactly what codependency is?  If he doesn't want to recovery from the dysfunction of his past, that is his problem.  It is not mine.  I want to recover.  I want to move on in life and his decision not to face the issues in his life is not going to hold me back.

So I forgive my oppressors not because I think what they did is right or will bare no consequence in their future.  But because I have absolutely no control over whether or not they will ever come out of denial.  The only person I can worry about is me.  Am I out of denial?  Have I made my amends?  Did I clean up my side of the street?  I am the only person that I can control.

Now if Mark C or any other person have a sense of calling from God to lovingly confront leading brothers and hold them to account then I honor him for this.  This is a noble calling.  I, on the other hand, am not wired for confrontation.  If I ran into a leading brother in a public place, the last thing I would be prepared to do is to confront him for past sins.  He would probably out-talk me.  What I would probably do is have a conversation or coffee, ask about their well-being, their family, etc.  If the conversation progressed, I might tell about my journey and how making amends for my past was freeing and helped me move on and perhaps encourage them to do the same.  If it sticks, great.  If not, then I am not going to worry about it.   If someone want to handle it even differently by just walking past and ignoring the leading brother, that is fine too.  Handle it in the way that you feel that you are called and equipped.  Just don't let their "lack of repentance" be an issue in your life.  It has nothing to do with you, your well-being or your spiritual growth.

If the leading brother wants to grow spiritually, he eventually will have to take a moral inventory of his lives and deal with the wreakage of his past.  I cannot control whether he wants to grow spiritually or come out of denial or if they will ever make amends in their lifetime.  All I can control is me.  And my spiritual growth is much more important to me than whether or not Mark M or Dan or George or Tim or whoever issues an apology.

[Vandyyke]

Thanks Dave