Spiritual Philosophy of Moral Foreign Policy

[Mark C.]

Hi All!

  I must admit this discussion has tested many assumptions that I held re. biblical interpretation and our relationship to our present govt.  What I mean is: what do we do with verses that tell us "to turn the other cheek" and yet other ones that seem to endorse active defense of the innocent, etc?

  I think what it all comes down to (at least for me) is thinking about how I go about interpreting scripture, and this applies to our discussion re. the Founding Fathers of this nation.  These men had a practical view of life that was founded in biblical theology and morality, but did not intend to establish a "Christian Nation" like the Puritans were thinking when they came to America.

  The Puritans viewed the bible much as Chuck does where he believes God's govt. is to only be expressed in the church. Contrary to that view the Founders saw govt. as also having a ministry from God that was separate from the church, which was to function as Paul mentions in Rom.13 as a supporter of good and repressor of evil.  Paul had no expectation that the heathen Roman rulers could somehow become a "Christian nation."

  What inspired the American Revolution was an "enlightened" view of govt. that would work better to achieve God's intended purpose in civil govt. vs. a corrupt monarchy that actively opposed what was good and right.

  Since the time of Daniel God acknowledged the above role of "secular" civil rule in society by some notable heathens (not believers in the God of Israel).  Those who were "good" by treating God's people with dignity were rewarded while those not so occupied were often judged in their lives (others like Hitler, etc. will not escape their own final judgement).

  I raise this point because God is not judging these heathen rulers (in OT/NT history) on their correct theology, but solely on the basis of a Judeo/Christian understanding of good and evil---- for they are involved in serving God simply in supporting justice by prosecuting the evil and supporting good works in their nations.

  The same kind of enlightened thinking that led to things like medical research, that has made our lives so much better, was also applied to the area of govt.   God's gift of our intellect is not to be subdued under some kind of "spiritual view" that lives some where in the heavenlies only.  These Founders were political intellectuals that saw "a more perfect Union" as a good effort that would make the world a better place to live ones temporal life in--- which is God's goal for govt., as they saw it.  This is not the church's mission and will not save a soul.

   Paul tells us to pray for our leaders so that we as believers can live peaceful lives, because this is God's desire for us.  I will add to that that He wants us to influence our nation not just as light (theology) but as salt (actions) and this means, in part, doing all we can to support morality in govt. and doing good to others who have temporal needs, etc. (I: JN:3:17).

  One can have an orthodox biblical belief and still apply ones mind to doing things smarter, better, and easier in this life--- for God intends us to pursue these worthy goals.  One can use knowledge for good or evil purposes, but the development of a government that is just, fair, supports the needy, opposes abusers, etc. is an admirable use of ones knowledge and active pursuit. 

                                                                     God Bless,  Mark C. 

   

[Chuck Miller]

[Continued from above]

MY RESPONSE:  Joe, I appreciate your candor. Maybe one of these days I’ll get it right. Let me give it one more try.
For the next several months, and probably longer, (unless some “juicier” news comes along, i.e. –Anna Nicole’s baby, Nifong and the Duke lacrosse players , Don Imus and  the Rutger’s black women athletes) the news media will round up the  usual “experts” and parade them before the American public to tell us  why a young South Korean boy decided to gun down 32 students at a college in Virginia.  The gun control crowd will introduce another “common sense” bill to “prevent such a tragedy from ever happening again.”   And stock-in- trade clichés such as “You are in our prayers” and “Our hearts go out to your loved ones.” will issue forth from the politicians who are “shocked by this atrocious act.”  And the largest percent of Americans will look to Dr. Phil, Rosie O’Donnell  and Oprah, to come up with answers.
.
I’m not trying to be facetious, Joe, but I’m betting it will sound a lot like the same rhetoric with which we were inundated during the aftermath of the Columbine tragedy. And once again, the answers will be all wrong.
Remember that tragic event that took place in April of 1999, when two young students went on a killing rampage and gunned down a bunch of students at Columbine High School in Colorado.  A nation mourned and groped for answers, and psychologists were quick to supply them, in their feeble attempts to probe the depths of the minds of troubled teenagers. 

However,  little serious attention was given to the answer found in the tales of the amazing courage of students like Rachel Scott and others who lost their lives that day.  They did so, refusing to deny their God.  Whatever fear they may have had for their assailants was overcome by the love they had for God.  "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love" (1 John 4:18).  Rachel Scott had that love, even for the two young boys who killed her.  And there was no fear.  Months before the tragedy, she had witnessed to them about her Lord Jesus Christ.  Sadly, they rejected it.  Had they not, Columbine would probably still be just an obscure little town in Colorado.  Sadder yet was the fact that a troubled nation failed to recognize the answer.

Joe, you and I both know that the only answer is Jesus Christ. What you seem to lose sight of in the big picture, is that death is not the end, but merely the beginning.  And the greatest tragedy isn’t death, but the death of one who does not know our Lord and Savior.   

It may very well be that the Lord wanted to use that tragic Columbine massacre as a wake-up call to a sick nation.  Now, before you politely accuse me of getting it all wrong, Joe, please read Rachel Scott’s story (you can find it on the internet). In a dairy that she had left, she related how God had told her that she was going to die and that her death was going to affect many people.  You didn’t hear about this on CNN, “Sixty Minutes,” or see it on Michael Moore’s  “Bowling For Columbine” documentary (?), but I believe it was the most poignant account of the Lord’s forcing a nation to examine its values and recognize the need to turn to Him. 

One more thing before I take a sabbatical, Joe.

In reading the book of Revelation, one can’t help but be awed by the severity of God’s wrath.

 “And the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released, so that they would kill a third of mankind” ( Revelation 9:15). 

When we read about God pouring out His wrath upon a wicked world I’m reminded of Psalm 2
   
 1Why are the nations in an uproar
         And the peoples devising a vain thing?
    2The kings of the earth take their stand
         And the rulers take counsel together
         Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,
    3"Let us tear their fetters apart
         And cast away their cords from us!"
    4He who sits in the heavens laughs,
         The Lord scoffs at them.
    5Then He will speak to them in His anger
         And terrify them in His fury, saying,
    6"But as for Me, I have installed My King
         Upon Zion, My holy mountain."
    7"I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:
         He said to Me, 'You are My Son,
         Today I have begotten You.
    8'Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance,
         And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.
    9'You shall break them with a rod of iron,
         You shall shatter them like earthenware.'"
    10Now therefore, O kings, show discernment;
         Take warning, O judges of the earth.
    11Worship the LORD with reverence
         And rejoice with trembling.
    12Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the    way,
         For His wrath may soon be kindled
         How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!

God bless,    Chuck

[Chuck Miller]

[Continued from above]

YOU WROTE:  He says to be a "father to the fatherless, and protect the widow". He says to "Love our neighbor as ourself" (to do for someone else what we would have them do for us). We cannot say "none of us are perfectly attuned to the will of God on this earth, aren't we being presumptuous to suppose that we can act upon our feelings, whether it be out of "revenge" or from "righteous indignation" (as you state below)---if we listened to this we would do nothing. 

MY RESPONSE:  You seem to equate not assassinating tyrants and not using armed might to bring peace as “doing nothing.”  What about praying for those who persecute you and giving to everyone who asks, and giving to the poor and preaching the gospel to the unsaved – being light and salt to a dying world? 

MY RESPONSE:  The act of trying to protect thousands of people would not be out of "feelings" but out of reason, compassion, and the very Word of God, where it asks us to consider others before ourselves. "Let him that would be greatest among you be your minister" (or servant). If this means attempting to eliminate an evil man to protect thousands of innocents, so be it.

MY RESPONSE:  Seems to me that you are loosely translating these verses to fit your understanding, Joe but if you feel that this verse is telling you to go to Iran and assassinate Ahmadinejad, I won’t get in your way. Paul wrote:  “For who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls, and stand he will, for the Lord is able to make him stand (Romans 14:4) and “The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God.  Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he does” (Romans 13:22). 
Yeh, if I were convinced that it does mean attempting to eliminate an evil man to protect thousands of innocents, then I will join in with you, but at this point I’m not convinced – but I’ll still listen.
I’d rather depend on God’s word (even if it is only my interpretation) than upon my feelings.  It’s easy to sit in the comforts of our living room and decide that it would be in God’s will to send someone to Iran to accomplish the task of assassinating Ahmadinejad, but I don’t see any big line of volunteers forming to go there and do it.

And, incidentally, why is it that the ones who are killed in these events are always descroibed as “innocent” victims?  But that’s a topic for another discussion.

YOU WROTE:  Chuck---I hate to use this analogy, but it's true. Suppose,[what if?] yesterday morning, a neighbor of yours, who was very odd, begins loading guns in his car. You had seen him acting erratically before, and making threats. He begins to pull out of the driveway and yells "I'm going to Virginia Tech, and I'm going to kill them all!!" You have a gun at your disposal, and have one clear shot. Do you take it?

MY RESPONSE:  Nope, and I doubt if you would either, Joe.  It’s easy, after the fact, to say what you would have done, or someone else should have done.  Any assertions as to how you would have responded are pure conjecture.

YOU WROTE: Or do you think "There must be a plan in all of this. Vengeance is God's. He will repay" and let him drive away? Would it be "presumptuous" of you to intervene, and try to save the lives of those on the campus? I seriously doubt you'd be thinking you might be "thwarting the plan of God" by eliminating this person.

MY RESPONSE:  I would probably think that the guy is looney in the head and I’d call 911 and let the police deal with it..

 YOU WROTE:  In the same way, if Amahdinejab made a threat to slaughter the infidels, and you knew he meant it, would you think of "thwarting God's plan" or would you think of all the poor people who would suffer and die if you didn't act?

MY RESPONSE:  Ahmadinejad has threatened to “wipe Israel off the map.”  What are you doing about that, Joe? 

YOU WROTE: I know this event at Virginia Tech. just happened, and great suffering has occurred. Of course we pray for all of the victims families, and all of those effected. I only use this as an example because it just happened, and can only think of how different things would be if he could have been stopped before he went on the rampage.

Chuck---I know we both have different ideas and interpretations on this thought we have been ping-ponging back and forth. I just want to say that I appreciate the conversation, and your posts too. You have every right, as do I, to post our thoughts about those things. It's great to be a U.S. citizen because of this very fact!! I look forward to more of your thoughts in the future.  Even though you are wrong.   

God bless,  Joe
[Continued below]

[Chuck Miller]

[Continued from above]

YOU WROTE:  But let's jump forward to today. We do not know God's SPECIFIC plan for America, or for any country for that matter. If another Pharaoh, in the form of Amahdinejab, not only threatens the Jews, but the whole world with his speeches, what are we to do? Again, if Amahdinejab said "In the morning, at my command, I will slaughter the infidels", and we had the opportunity to stop him through assassination, would we do nothing? Would we say "As in the days of Moses, God had a plan. He must have a plan here also. Perhaps he has raised this man up to bring persecution on the U.S. and on the world to turn us back to himself. I will do nothing and trust that God's Will will be done". ?

MY RESPONSE:  Here you go again with the hypotheticals, Joe.  Well, let me join in again. 

So O.K., what if you take out Ahmadinejad, and find out that you’ve done nothing but make a martyr of him and further roused the hatred of the Iranian people.  Without warning, the new leader launches missiles at the U.S. and Israel.  Israel is destroyed and millions of its people are killed.  New York, Washington, Los Angeles, Chicago, San Francisco and Dallas are all virtually annihilated and millions are dead and countless millions of others are injured.  The United States becomes a virtual nuclear wasteland, unfit for habitation. But you have been successful in assassinating an evil man who threatened to” slaughter the infidels.”  Congratulations, Joe!

YOU WROTE:  But we, unlike Moses, would have no idea what God's purpose is or what he is going to do. He hasn't told us he is going to use Amahdinejab and WILL spare the U.S. and others (he told Moses that Israel for sure would be freed after the tests he put upon Pharaoh--Moses KNEW that his people WOULD be freed). We have no such information. What if God's will was for you to stop him since you have the opportunity?

MY RESPONSE:  Whenever we act on conjecture and feelings rather than trusting in God’s commands (even when, and especially when, we don’t understand them) we err.   Mr. Bush’s Road Map to Peace violates God’s plan for Israel and binds this nation together with unbelievers.   

YOU WROTE:  Would it be "presumption" to try to save the lives of thousands of people? None of us can be "perfectly attuned to God's plan on this earth" ,that's why we must look to the heart of God and to His Word.

MY RESPONSE:  Exactly!

[Continued below]

[Chuck Miller]

Joe,

YOU WROTE: 
Chuck--
I appreciate your posts.  But you have a tendency to equate the United States with Israel. Though their are many Christians and Jews in the U.S. we cannot say that the United States are "God's People". I do believe He has greatly blessed the U.S. though due to the believing population, prayers, and the efforts of the U.S. in helping the less fortunate around the world, and defending those being oppressed.

RESPONSE:  Joe, I don’t know where you got the idea that I equate the United States with Israel, unless you mean it in the sense that both nations have turned away from God   And no, I certainly don’t believe that the U.S. are God’s people. As for his blessing the U.S., it seems that the more affluent this country has become, the farther they have abandoned their dependence on God and relied more upon money and military power.  As for defending the oppressed, it seems that the U.S. has been selective in whom they defend.  The North Koreans are one of the most oppressed people in the world, but I haven’t seen any effort to go in and take out their cruel dictator and establish a democracy there. 

YOU WROTE:  The United States is made up of selfish men (as are all countries of the world), and true, the U.S. did not enter World War 2 until we were directly attacked by Japan. Perhaps if the U.S. had entered earlier, the war may have ended differently. Who knows?  The point I was making before is that the U.S. has given more to help other countries through charity and defense than any other country.

MY RESPONSE:  I believe that as followers of Christ we have an obligation to help the poor and the downtrodden.  When governments take it upon themselves to use their peoples money for charitable purposes, things go awry and much of the money gets misused or stolen.  I,e. – Iraqi victims,  Katrina victims, the Tsunammi victims.

YOU WROTE:  Regarding Moses, he in "revenge" did kill an Egyptian for abusing Jews. This "revenge" killing was totally wrong as the Bible declares. True, God had a "plan" for "his people Israel", and did indeed raise up Pharaoh and Moses, to show his glory for all time. God told Moses that in using a series of plagues he would eventually free Israel.  But again, Chuck, I do have to ask the question: If Moses had overheard Pharaoh say "At my command, in the morning, I will slaughter all of the Israelites beginning with the youngest" and he had an opportunity to kill Pharaoh before he could accomplish this horrible act, would he be warranted in killing Pharaoh to protect thousands of Israelites?  I know you will say "God would tell him what to do"--and He would as he had ALREADY told Moses he had a SPECIFIC plan in raising him up to address Pharaoh. But if Moses knew nothing, and only had a short time to act, would God be displeased with Moses for doing this, or would he be pleased with Moses for loving the people of Israel so much? Of course we are talking Law and Grace, but we are also talking about the heart of God.

MY RESPONSE:  Your hypotheticals amount to situation ethics, Joe and I don’t care to engage in jousting with you concerning continuous “what if”s,”  - but let me play your game for a moment

Let’s take the meeting at which Bonhoffer, Rommel and the others had planned on assassinating Hitler.  What if Hitler had called the meeting to tell His staff that he had had a change of heart and that he was going to allow all of the Jews to return to their homes. But the attempt on his life so infuriated him that he decided to escalate his persecution of the Jews? Far=fetched?  Yes, but that's the danger with playing those "what if?" games.

[Continued below]

[Joe Sperling]

Chuck---

I had a rather lenghty reply, and then deleted it. I think it would just cause us to cover the same ground
all over again. I did notice that you quoted me in your post, where I made the comment that I looked forward to more of your posts "even though you're wrong" and you did not carry over the two  's I put at the end of that statement (perhaps when one cuts and pastes these don't carry over). I just wanted to let you know that I was definitely kidding, and inferring by it that I am always right---which would be a ridiculous thing to say. In my earlier posts I wasn't inferring that Christians should be going around looking for someone to assassinate.  I used Dietrich Bonhoeffer as an example of someone following their God-given conscience and intellect, who was also a Christian, to try to make a point that sometimes we need to use the resources God has already given us, rather than to wait for God to "do something". Perhaps I should have used a more mundane example than assassination attempt to accomplish that.

Thanks again for all of your posts Chuck, I appreciated the exchange of ideas.

--Joe

[Chuck Miller]

 Joe.

 Sorry if I sounded a tad thin skinned.  Maybe I'm just getting a little gun shy from   
 getting lambasted from all sides.  That comes with old age I guess, but it keeps       
 me on my toes.  No offence taken.

 God bless,      Chuck

[Chuck Miller]

[continued from above]

YOU WROTE:  So, Chuck, you need to actually answer your own questions and then offer your answers in support of your position.  If you can't answer the questions with any certainty, the best you or anyone else could do is "perhaps".

MY RESPONSE:  O.K., Tom – here were my questions – and my answers

1 - Is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob the same God of Tom Maddux and Chuck Miller and Joe Sperling, Mark C, Moonflower and Explorer?   My answer – Yes, with not one iota of uncertainty.

2. And would He not hear the cry of His righteous ones and deliver us from the wrath of the evil Ahmadinejad?  My answer – “Yes, I believe He would, but I would not presume to know with certainty what God’s plans are for this country.

3..And if He didn’t, would we be willing to say in the spirit of Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego.  “But, O’God, if you do not deliver us from this fiery ordeal, you are still our God and we know that we are your people.”  My answer – I would hope we would have that attitude but I am cautioned, “He who thinks he stand, take heed lest he fall.” So I wouldn’t make any assumptions about my own steadfastness under duress.  Only by His grace would I be able to stand.   

Finally, remember that many, many godly saints have cried out to God for deliverance, and have not been delivered.  Seems to me that God's purposes are the deciding factor in the histories of nations.

Blessings,

Tom Maddux

MY RESPONSE:  Amen, Tom.

 So, if “God's purposes are the deciding factor in the histories of nations,” then it behooves us to determine what are  God’s purposes. I find nothing in the scriptures that suggests that He advocated Christians going and making nations of disciples.  That doesn’t necessarily negate the possibility that it would be compatible with His purposes, but it certainly hasn’t proven out in the case of the United States.

Nor has He given any mandate for any country to go and make “a democracy of a Godless nation,” such as Iraq.
 
God’s purpose is that all men should be saved and to present every man complete in Christ. His purpose to save a lost world through His Son Christ Jesus, will not be defeated even by the wiles of Satan himself.  He established the church so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places (and again, I would have to qualify that to be a properly functioning church).  Despite  Satan’s attack upon that church in order to make it ineffective, Jesus  promised that the gates of Hades would not overpower it (Matthew 16:18)
And in anticipation of your asking “What is a properly functioning church?”  I would refer you again to Acts 2 since I know of no better example.
 
42They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
 43Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles.
 44And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common;
 45and they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need.
 46Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart,
 47praising God and having favor with all the people And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.

I make no apology for the redundancy.  Since you admit to the unchanging divine nature of the Lord Jesus, not to God's particular way of working at a certain point in history,” - then would it not be wise for us to discover the unchanging principles that this early church practiced so that we could apply them to our gatherings in this age and through the empowering of the Holy Spirit aid in accomplishing His purposes?
Or would you suggest that Jesus established the U.S. in order to accomplish it?  But there I go asking another question.

He gave us, the church, a mandate to “Go, therefore and make disciples of all the nations” – (again - not a mandate to make nations of all of His disciples).  And we are to be ambassadors for Christ, not for any earthly government. We are to be salt and light to the unbelievers by living a life in accordance with His instructions in Matthew 5, 6 and 7.   

Israel, was empowered to make God’s name know throughout all the land and they would have been richly blessed in the process had the not disobeyed Him. Yet, for all of their disobedience , they are still God’s people and  He always purposed to bring them back into their land.  But He says,

"It is not for your righteousness or for the uprightness of your heart that you are going to possess their land, but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD your God is driving them out before you, in order to confirm the oath which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” (Deuteronomy 9:5)

May we keep our hearts focused on Him and the task He has given us until He returns in glory.

God bless

Chuck 

[Chuck Miller]

Tom,

YOU WROTE:  Chuck,

You said:  Quote:

"But let’s imagine for a moment that my juxtaposition was true - that we were a righteous, God-fearing nation, led by a righteous, God- fearing President who put his trust completely in the Lord.  Is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob the same God of Tom Maddox and Chuck Miller and Joe Sperling, Mark C, Moonflower and Explorer?  And would He not hear the cry of His righteous ones and deliver us from the wrath of the evil Ahmadinejad?  And if He didn’t, would we be willing to say in the spirit of Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego.  “But, O’God, if you do not deliver us from this fiery ordeal, you are still our God and we know that we are your people.”

1. First of all, what exactly is a righteous, God fearing nation"?  A nation without sinners?  A nation where 100% of the citizens are born again and walking with God?  Would God settle for 95%?  90%? or what???

RESPONSE:  I believe a “God-fearing nation” would be one that is composed of people whose Lord is Jesus Christ and don’t have to show it by slogans or words on their currency. They exhibit a life of obedience to their Lord and put their trust in Him rather than in armies and weapons.  I don’t know of any such nation at this time.

In answer to your question, “Would God settle for 95%?  90%? or what???”   I read that God would have settled for ten righteous men for Him to have spared the city of Sodom (Gen 18:32).   

YOU WROTE:  Last time I checked, Israel was a theocracy, and as long as the government and priesthood were diligent to attempt to force the people to obey the law pretty well, that was adequate.  I remember one verse where God was honoring the king even though he did not take all the high places away.

MY RESPONSE:  Yes, we know that Asa, for one, did not take away the high places, but He was wholly devoted to the LORD all his days. (1 Kings 15)   
I don’t believe the priesthood was instituted to “force the people to obey the law pretty well.”  The priests were appointed to teach the law.  God never intended to “force “ His people to obey. 
As for Israel being a theocracy, let me remind you that God was Israel’s King until they decided that they wanted an earthly king.   And so, they became a monarchy.

YOU WROTE:  We are not a theocracy, we have no earthly priesthood, and most of the Law is not codified in our laws.  So, how can we know if we are being godly enough?

MY RESPONSE:  The United States is certainly not a theocracy. Even if you kept all of the laws of the U.S. government, it would not make you godly, Tom.  God’s kingdom is a theocracy.  The church is a part of that kingdom.  We cannot be “godly enough,” but Jesus is.  Through Him we can be righteous (or godly enough)
 “For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man, the many will be made righteous” ( Romans  5:19)

YOU WROTE:  2.  You are reasoning in the same manner the Pentescostals do.  They reason, "since Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever, what we are doing in our churches is the same as the early church.

MY RESPONSE:  And you reason by making invalid assumptions, Tom. I have pointed this out in the past and assumed you would cease doing so.   My point is that a church (in any age) functions properly when it follows the principles laid down by Christ, availing itself of the means He has supplied for doing so.   Paul understood this when he wrote:

10He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)
 11And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
 14As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
 15but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,
 16from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

Admittedly, you would be hard pressed to find a church today that exhibits this type of conduct and attitude, but that doesn’t alter the purpose for which it was established.

YOU WROTE:  The problem is that the verse refers to the unchanging divine nature of the Lord Jesus, not to God's particular way of working at a certain point in history.  The former is unchanging.  The latter is not.

MY RESPONSE:  Good comment, Tom.  I assumed you were smart enough to figure that out, 

YOU WROTE:  3. What you offer in support of your position is a series of questions.  How convincing is this: Is not Mark Campbell capable of shoplifting?  Does he not regularly enter stores?  Does he not have many of the things found in those stores in his possession?

This is, of course, absurd.  No one would accept this as any indication of Mark's purported guilt at all. What would be necessary is positive evidence that he had actually stolen something.

RESPONSE:  Since you admit that your analogy is absurd, I don’t think it warrants any further comment

[continue below]

[Joe Sperling]

Please see comment in new split off  "Word from Spiritual Philosophy of Moral Foreign Policy" thread(under "Any and All Topics"area) which is a split-off from "Iraq, A Good Idea?" Thread", so as not to sidetrack the flow of thought on this thread.

[Mark C.]

Dear Joe and Tom!  

  I am deeply offended and outraged over my name being associated with shopping for things like "large bottles of soda and Doritos!"

 Everyone knows that I took up yo-yo's (yo-yoing?) as a means of therapy to treat my problem with shoplifting and now you guys have to bring it up so that the many thousands that read here will know my deep depravity!!!

  My lawyer, Mr. Gonzales, will be in touch as soon as he returns to private practice!

PS:  Do you know where I can get a replacement windsheld for a 1960 Rambler American?

                                          Indignantly yours,  Mark C. :rofl: