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Author Topic: Trouble On Calvary Chapel Radio  (Read 9205 times)
outdeep
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« on: March 01, 2007, 07:00:21 am »

Well, looks like Chuck Smith has his share of controversy and problems as well...


http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-calvary28feb28,0,4379407.story?page=1&coll=la-home-headlines
« Last Edit: March 01, 2007, 07:04:16 am by Dave Sable » Logged
outdeep
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« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2007, 10:30:46 pm »

Also an older article about Smith Sr. having to deal with Smith Jr.'s move towards postmodernism.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-smiths2sep02,0,2227134.story?coll=la-home-headlines
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vernecarty
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« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2007, 08:42:32 am »

Well, looks like Chuck Smith has his share of controversy and problems as well...


http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-calvary28feb28,0,4379407.story?page=1&coll=la-home-headlines


How sad!
It is a sobering thing to see men who have been valiant for the gospel come to the end of their ministries with such dishonor.
It looks to me like Chuck Smith allowed his business ambitions to cloud his judgment regarding his first and foremost calling and now he is paying the price for his compromises...God is always faithful....
Verne
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amycahill
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« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2007, 03:24:02 pm »


How sad!
It is a sobering thing to see men who have been valiant for the gospel come to the end of their ministries with such dishonor.
It looks to me like Chuck Smith allowed his business ambitions to cloud his judgment regarding his first and foremost calling and now he is paying the price for his compromises...God is always faithful....
Verne


You know, I never lived in a sisters' house.  I wasn't allowed to.  Even then, leadership detected mental instability in me (they even secretly sent me to a psychiatric nurse (!!!) who did no good whatsoever, unfortunately).  They were right -- for the past nine years, I have been battling full-blown mental illness, although it looks like I have finally reached the light at the end of the tunnel.  Ironically, it was that very "instability" that saved me.  When I was plucked out of the Assembly by being sent home to Colorado by my Calvary Chapel roommates (Jim announced they had bought a plane ticket and were sending me home THAT DAY -- classic escape, eh?) I was under discipline.  What was my sin?  Inconsistent attendance!  *snort*  The cause of THAT problem was my fundamental inability to properly assimilate the Assembly system because my mental illness wouldn't LET me!  I ended up ruining my credit and my life as an alternative to actually committing suicide, because I was in SUCH DESPAIR at being unable to reach the God I so loved (He was on top of a "heavenly ladder" I just couldn't climb, no matter how hard I tried).  I stopped paying my bills (even though I had the money to pay them) until my car ended up being repossessed.  It took me YEARS to dig my way out of all that and re-establish a good credit history.  At the time Jim and Paula (a married couple) sent me home, I had abandoned my job and they were eventually forced to fire me (even though they wanted me there so much they gave me a couple of WEEKS to come back!).  I was doing nothing all day long.  I was totally ruined.  Jim and Paula probably saved my life, as did Wendy Hinman, who I consulted before deciding to leave.  (Wendy doubtlessly got in trouble for letting me do that, bless her heart!) 

Anyhow, I have made a MAJOR digression.  The point is, I lived with Calvary Chapel roommates who held a Calvary Chapel Bible study in their townhouse every week.  So I was exposed to healthy Christianity while being a part of the Assembly.  I remember inviting one of them, a guy I had a crush on, to a Sunday meeting.  He didn't like it -- he told me the Holy Spirit told him to get the hell out of there!  I wish I had listened to him.  I also visited Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa at times for services.  I actually met Chuck Smith and prayed with him.  He was kind.

So it is sad to see how this has come to pass, because I literally "knew him when..."
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vernecarty
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« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2007, 05:13:41 pm »

He didn't like it -- he told me the Holy Spirit told him to get the hell out of there!  I wish I had listened to him.  I also visited Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa at times for services.  I actually met Chuck Smith and prayed with him.  He was kind.


This is one aspect of George's assemblies that I have very rarely discussed but which nonetheless dominates my thinking and assessment of the man and his enablers.
There are a number of specific instances in which I have had conversations with Christians who visited some assembly gathering and never returned.
In an effort to learn from my own mistakes, I always made it a point to press them for the specific reason(s) for their decision.

What was it that you saw that I did not??!!

Over the years, an innumerable litany of things have been cited about what was wrong with the assemblies - socially, morally, Biblically etc. etc. etc.
The thing that really startled me though was that without exception, so many of these folk who never stayed around long enough to see any of these aspects of the assembly evils play out nonetheless "got the hell out of there"
They almost without exception cite a sense of spritual darkness, or some warning from the Spirit of God in their swift decision. In one case one brother told me someting that he "saw" that I will not repeat here.
I believe them completely.

Knowing what we know, we cannot conclude otherwise but that the assemblies were places of evil started by an evil man.

Now I know that this will offend some folk who insist on seeing all the "good" that came out of that system.

I have no patience with ostriches.

It is clear to me that it was my own spiritual immaturity, and total lack of spiritual sensitivity and discernment that led me to place myself in that situation.
Those who recruited others into that system and still refuse to admit their complicity in advancing the agenda of an evil messenger will in my opinion never recover from Geftakys' baleful influence.
In one sense, he still owns them.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2007, 05:18:58 pm by vernecarty » Logged
outdeep
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« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2007, 10:37:57 pm »

So it is sad to see how this has come to pass, because I literally "knew him when..."
Just so we are not too hard on Chuck Smith, here is my perspective:

George's problem was that he was obsessively controlling.  In trying to make everything about himself, he damaged many lives.

Church Smith's problem was that he was overly trusting.  In fact, in many of the CC controversies I have read about, you can make the case that Pastor Chuck literally believed his own book Why Grace Matters.  Often in what he perceived as showing grace, folks took advantage of him or folks felt he was not being stern enough.  (The latter folks may have been right but I still think Pastor Chuck's heart was probably in the right place).

In spite of the fact that something so massive as the Calvary Chapel movement would lose steam, generate controversy and pick up some bad apples (what denomination hasn't?  Think of the radically godly origins of Methodism), I still have a huge respect for Pastor Chuck and appreciate his unwavering consistancy in teaching through the Bible year after year after year and allowing those under him to launch their own ministries.
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amycahill
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« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2007, 10:59:18 am »

I have no patience with ostriches.

I don't either.  Thank you for being willing to proclaim the TRUTH!
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vernecarty
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« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2007, 12:36:27 pm »



George's problem was that he was obsessively controlling. 

While I agree that Geftakys was obsessively controlling, to identify that as in and of itself as the problem I think really misses the point.
There are lots of control freaks who are genuine servants of God.
I have worked with some of them.
This temparament in some of God's servants is always tempered by co-laboring with other faithful men of stature.
Some servants have the opposite problem of being too self-effacing and have to learn, again by co-laboring with others, how to take the initiative in a Christ-honoring way if that is their calling.
George's incredible hubris and arrogance did not exist in some kind of vacuum. Recall that this was a man who had been disciplined by other Christian leaders more than once for immoral conduct and he was determined to never again put himself in a position where he could be challenged - hence, his arrogation to himself the unassailble position of having "apostolic authority". He was the way he was as a matter of design and that to conceal his own covetousness, pride and debauchery.

George Geftaky's control obsession, had as its primary and well-thought out purpose , keeping anyone, including his hand-picked elders, from discovering and exposing his own sin!


If you don't understand this about Geftakys and the assemblies, you have completel missed , in my humble opinon, the critical lesson of that era.
Geftakys  was a devil from the beginning!

I am prepared to now state publicly that he will never repent, and his end will be signal. His biography is in the pages of Scripture.

Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.  Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Listen up people: George Geftakys is a type! (ensample in the above Scripture)

We are not to play games with holy things...this is the warning we should draw from his life.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2007, 12:57:23 pm by vernecarty » Logged
outdeep
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« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2007, 05:26:27 pm »

Verne,

I was not stating a complete analysis of George Geftakys.  That has already been done many times on the board and I assumed folks pretty much see him for what he is. 

Instead, I was making one comparison between George Geftakys and Chuck Smith.

I am not suprised this triggered you.  But take my point for what's it worth.  One area of difference between these two leaders is one over-controls and one over-trusts.

-Dave
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vernecarty
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« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2007, 06:46:29 pm »

Verne,

I was not stating a complete analysis of George Geftakys.  That has already been done many times on the board and I assumed folks pretty much see him for what he is. 

Instead, I was making one comparison between George Geftakys and Chuck Smith.

I am not suprised this triggered you.  But take my point for what's it worth.  One area of difference between these two leaders is one over-controls and one over-trusts.

-Dave

Sorry If I mis-read your post Dave.
I know some people still want to hold onto the idea that Geftakys was just a poor weak brother who somehow went astray despite his best intentions.
I think you are right about Chuck Smith perhaps not being as hands-on as he should have been in some specific instances. Of course his ability to encourage others to develop and assume responsibility was one of his great strengths.
I would argue that it was not so much his trusting nature that was the problem. We really have to trust people we associate ourselves with in ministry.
I think the problem was that we are too often unwilling to break trust with those we discover to be unworthy of it.
In both the case of Calvary Chapel and Geoge Geftakys, the remedy would have been the same.
Chuck Smith continued to support and defend a man who was clearly not blameless according to the Biblical standard required for leaders.
The men around Geftakys did the same.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2007, 06:49:05 pm by vernecarty » Logged
outdeep
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« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2007, 09:47:02 pm »

In both the case of Calvary Chapel and Geoge Geftakys, the remedy would have been the same.
Chuck Smith continued to support and defend a man who was clearly not blameless according to the Biblical standard required for leaders.
The men around Geftakys did the same.
Yes, I would certainly grant you that.  One of his most controversial moves was when David Hocking fell into sin and (according to the story) refused to submit to the discipline process he (Hocking) established at his own church.  Chuck Smith picked him up on staff and Hocking was soon teaching again.

Smith's reasoning was that Hocking was a teacher and had repented in tears in his office and would be destroyed if he was simply put on a shelf.

Lots of folks (even pastors within Calvary Chapel) was pretty ticked over that one.  But then Smith's reasoning is that "grace changes everything". 
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