what role should shame play in raising kids?

[brian]

my son just had his first birthday party on saturday. it was a fun time, and i was glad to see he was able to handle having all those different people around with a calm friendly happiness. something my girlfriend (did i just lose most of my audience??  ) and i frequently re-evaluate is how to teach him good behaviors and positive life skills without using tactics that might create other problems for him.
its quite normal for parents to fall back on the techniques their parent's used, the good and the bad. so this experience in my life has forced me to rethink the child-raising techniques i saw in the assembly, used on myself and many others around me, in order to draw on the good and try to avoid the bad. i'm sure every other AK who has had kids has gone through a very similar process. i'm curious what you guys have come up with, if any of you feel like talking about it.

http://www.naturalchild.org/robin_grille/good_children.html

this article talks a lot about shaming, a technique used rampantly in the assembly on both adults and children. any small failure to meet impossibly high standards was usually met with harsh reminders of what a horrible failure and wretch you were, and disproportionately large punishments. i don't agree with everything in the article, but i do agree that shaming is a horrible technique to use, especially on little kids. i don't see anything good that comes of it. it encourages shallow conformism through fear and self-doubt. thats no way to live.
i believe i can set firm standards of behavior through modeling (being a good example of what you expect from your kid) and positive reinforcement (rewards, praise) and as a last resort caring non-angry dicipline. those are the parts of being raised in the assembly that helped me the most. it also takes a lot of careful observation, since every kid is unique and only by understanding what is going on inside this particular child in this particular situation will i be able to help him develop in a healthy way.

i also think an important part of not passing false guilt on to my kid is getting rid of my own, which i have made a lot of progress on over the years. if i don't make the effort to get those judgemental voices out of my head, they will eventually be coming out of my lips without me even realizing it, at some weak moment. parents have a lot of those parenting really shows what you're made of - which i kind of knew going into it, and sure enough...

i think about this stuff a lot, and would to hear what other people's experience has been, especially other AKs, if any of you feel like sharing.

brian

[just me]

Brian,
I agree with you.  Shame should not be used on kids.  To me that's like being a big, older bully and putting them in their place.  We as adults can always win the conversation/argument with our kids because we're smarter (for a while anyway) but why would you want to ostracize someone you are seeking to maintain a love relationship with in that kind of "putdown" way?

I have found that firm modeling is the key with teaching my kids (four ranging in age from 5-12).  Some of them take 8 reminders.  Some of them need leading them by the hand away from the bad situation.  Some of them just need a warm encouragement.  But constant intervention is the key.  That is something good I did learn in the assembly.  We supervised our kids very closely.  I think that is crucial for kids, so that they never get away with the undesirable behavior.  Otherwise they will always gamble for the next opportunity to do it again.

I too have had to get rid of all the negativity learned in the assembly.  I remember about 2 years ago waking up and seeing my kids in a whole different light.  It happened after one of their teachers spent a really long time bragging about how great one of my kids was.  I finally agreed.  I no longer had to root out all of the sins, problems, departures from perfection.  These were great kids!  (Don't ask me how they got that way?!)  Now I am so proud of them and brag on them too.  My husband and I help each other when we get too critical of their problems and my 12 year old reminds me too.  They know they have a voice to speak up (within boundaries) about their parents behavior too.  Wow that's different.

I still haven't figured out how to navigate the teenage years.  Those are coming.  But my oldest is a great kid and I don't think will be into too much experimentation.  Some of my younger ones are a little more challenging.

My 2 cents
Me

[Eulaha L. Long]

I remember my parents constantly telling my siblings, "Why can't you be more like Eulaha?  She's a good girl, she gets good grades, etc".  This method of shaming produce a lot of hard feelings between my siblings and me.  They resented me, becaue they could never reach the pedestal my parents put me on.  I'm not sure if this helps, but I was reminded of this as I read that article you provided the link for, Brian.

ps- You didn't lose me as part of the audience!  Congrats on your son! 

[outdeep]

Child training should be redemptive.  No matter what technique you employ from encouragement to tough love to punishment, it is always for the benefit of the child.  Because we live in a broken world and we may have had poor examples, we often have to distinguish between responding out of anger and feelings of hurt and trying to really do what is best for the child.

I have often had to wait some time (an hour with a child or days with an older child) to make sure I have let my personal anger and hurt subside and that I am dealing with the situation that will ultimately help the child make better choices in the future.

As for "losing your audience", I (and I suspect most of us) are not prudes.  We understand the concept of "living together" and sex outside of marriage.  However, most of us feel that if your girlfriend is willing to commit herself to bear your child, you should also honor her by giving her your commitment of marriage.  You can give her the security of a committed family.  She deserves that.

[Jem]

Brian,

"As for losing your audience . . ." Yeah, What Dave said. Your son deserves your full committment to his mother. 

[Oscar]

my son just had his first birthday party on saturday. it was a fun time, and i was glad to see he was able to handle having all those different people around with a calm friendly happiness. something my girlfriend (did i just lose most of my audience??  ) and i frequently re-evaluate is how to teach him good behaviors and positive life skills without using tactics that might create other problems for him.
its quite normal for parents to fall back on the techniques their parent's used, the good and the bad. so this experience in my life has forced me to rethink the child-raising techniques i saw in the assembly, used on myself and many others around me, in order to draw on the good and try to avoid the bad. i'm sure every other AK who has had kids has gone through a very similar process. i'm curious what you guys have come up with, if any of you feel like talking about it.

http://www.naturalchild.org/robin_grille/good_children.html

this article talks a lot about shaming, a technique used rampantly in the assembly on both adults and children. any small failure to meet impossibly high standards was usually met with harsh reminders of what a horrible failure and wretch you were, and disproportionately large punishments. i don't agree with everything in the article, but i do agree that shaming is a horrible technique to use, especially on little kids. i don't see anything good that comes of it. it encourages shallow conformism through fear and self-doubt. thats no way to live.
i believe i can set firm standards of behavior through modeling (being a good example of what you expect from your kid) and positive reinforcement (rewards, praise) and as a last resort caring non-angry dicipline. those are the parts of being raised in the assembly that helped me the most. it also takes a lot of careful observation, since every kid is unique and only by understanding what is going on inside this particular child in this particular situation will i be able to help him develop in a healthy way.

i also think an important part of not passing false guilt on to my kid is getting rid of my own, which i have made a lot of progress on over the years. if i don't make the effort to get those judgemental voices out of my head, they will eventually be coming out of my lips without me even realizing it, at some weak moment. parents have a lot of those parenting really shows what you're made of - which i kind of knew going into it, and sure enough...

i think about this stuff a lot, and would to hear what other people's experience has been, especially other AKs, if any of you feel like sharing.

brian

Brian,

I don't think anyone would disagree with you that the assembly culture was heavily laced with shame.  However, all shame is not unhealthy. 

Healthy shame is an important part of life.  It keeps us humble and shows us that we are not omnipotent.  It provides us with a sense of appropriate limits and helps us to function in society.  Healthy shame enables intimacy! 

Ever hear anything like this?  "He/she understands me more than anyone else!"  This is because we do not expose much of our inner lives to public scrutiny.  We only allow people with whom we have developed a high level of trust to see, "inside" us.

Healthy shame allows us to function in society.  Have you ever had to say, "I made an ass of myself"?  This means that we suddenly realized we had violated some mutually understood social rule in public.

Unhealthy shame is what we want to avoid.  The web has many articles about this that give many details about this.  But essentially unhealthy shame is shame that causes us to devalue ourselves and to adopt unprofitable coping strategies to shield ourselves from feeling ashamed.  This is a BIG problem.  The assembly was a good place to develop it, and Betty's goofy ideas on child raising were effective vehicles for transporting it into lives.

Here is a brief article about healthy/unhealthy shame:

http://www.saworship.com/article-page.php?Page=family.php&ID=2641

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

[Mark C.]

Hi Brian!

   First: Happy Birthday to your Son and congratulations on being a proud Pop!  Your love and concern for your child comes through your post and I think this attitude is the most important part of being a good parent.

   In your post you mention the word "technique/s" often and it seems that the "Natural Child" raising article is focused on this as well.  In the Assembly we were told that raising our children was exactly like training a dog (this was actually said by Ginger G.); the focus was on forming proper behavior via discipline.

  Discipline teaches an individual to act in a certain way---- as in learning efficient and productive habits, etc.  The psychological techniques mentioned in the article you linked are the same--- a technique in attempting to develop a child into a healthy person.  Instead of using shame the parent is to use the opposite; which are positive forms that affirm the child.

 A recent study has found that children raised via giving lots of praise, instead of a negative means of discipline, have produced the opposite of the desired intent.  These children have become arrogant and self centered vs. the loving kind of person that this method was supposed to produce.

  It seems that when children only hear how wonderful they are and never learn the healthy kind of shame awareness that Tom mentioned in his post they grow up becoming enamored of themselves.  The conscience is never developed in a healthy manner via instruction in morality if a child is shielded from the kind of lessons learned by facing honestly personal moral failure.

   What's a parent to do?  Different techniques that see child raising as methods that produce desired results don't take into account that the human soul is not the same as a rat in a maze.  This is because we are moral/spiritual beings made in the image of God.  Character development is key to developing a healthy loving child and this will not occur without teaching honesty, humility, self control, etc.

   You are correct that parental modeling via good character choices is the most essential quality in raising kids.  On the other hand, hypocritical modeling is the most negative reinforcement in encouraging children to fall off the deep end (GG and Betty perfect examples of this, as are all false religious systems).

   It is a big mistake to assign all moral/spiritual instruction as being of the hypocritical type we experienced in the Assembly.  It is also a mistake to think that we can be the perfect parent in taking God's place in our child's life.  It takes an attitude of deep faith in God's love and power or else we will give up in a feeling of despair at times.

   Kids will see our faith (held in personal honesty and sincerity), though our methodologies may differ, and it will create a lasting foundation in their lives.  If our Assembly parents had the above most likely the kids will do well, but for those hypocritical like GG and Betty the outcome will be Dave G.

                                                                God Bless, Mark C.       

[rio]

Hi Brian,

Congratulations on fatherhood. Thank you for this link. its taken me some time to read it. As the father of 15 month olds I am learning so much. I guess it's a good thing theyre not in the assembly because theyre shy around even family so greeting sister so and so wouldnt probably happen right away and then they might get a consequence  or I would be entreated for not disciplining them for not laying on a mat.  On the otherhand some were good examples. Not everything in the assembly was bad. I have found that I am teaching them not by shaming or yelling but by let them know when theyre doing something that could be trouble. Now a days I can expect them to crawl up the the stove drawer(its not hot but still) and look at me to see what my expression will be. Theyre learning to obey, and know I dont want them to do something. 

I like what Dave said in one of his posts
"Child training should be redemptive.  No matter what technique you employ from encouragement to tough love to punishment, it is always for the benefit of the child.  Because we live in a broken world and we may have had poor examples, we often have to distinguish between responding out of anger and feelings of hurt and trying to really do what is best for the child."

My wife and I have been blessed with babies who sleep thru the night. I have learned that they are not robots but every once in awhile(like this week) they get sick so as a team we comfort them, this is whats best for them in this instance. They cling to me at gramma's house when I would want to watch a ballgame and have them go play with their cousins. So I have learned patience. and when I am frustrated I take a break, it's nice even my wife tells me to take a break. Child training is supposed to be redemptive and for me how can it not be when my babies look up at me with that beautiful little grin

At this age do infants even understand guilt or shame. Why on earth would I tell my girls theyre being naughty. I think it's my job to teach them and this involves repitition for awhile. Theyre not going to know how to behave in a restaurant until I teach them. I have taken my girls to a restaurant and they did surprisingly well for having never been to a restaurant.  I know also full well that if I leave the room, or table I can expect to have 4 little eyes wondering where I am going so its my job to realize this. Theyre not bad if they get up or cry when I leave the room and theyre not spolied

I want my girls to be positive, to have a positive image of themselves later in life. I want them to have it better than I had it in life. This doesnt mean they wont have limitations. I dont believe name calling is all that effective and I have alot to learn about parenting but even now i respect their feelings, they only know to cry when they want/need something. I agree with the article just like theyre learning to talk theyre forming theyre own boundaries and learning.


any way I want to be my babies role model, they're constantly watching learning, exploring. I have learned and that I am their best teacher. I believe that they need alot of positive re inforcement- it's funny they have learned to clap especially when we tell them good job and they have learned boundaries-they know when they crawl up the stove that I am watching them.

well, thats about it for now. By the way yesterday they stood up and took their first steps and even let me record those steps. Most times they just want to eat the camcorder or will stand up when I cant get to the camera(i think they do it on purpose)   

 

[brian]

there is a lot of good insight in this thread that i would like to discuss further. where to begin...

i was discussing this topic, and some of your replies, with a friend last night. she is a psychologist, so i was curious what her take would be. she mentioned erickson's theory of development: http://www.childdevelopmentinfo.com/development/erickson.shtml
interestingly, shame is an issue erikson's theory places at about 1.5 years. i have observed in alex, 13 months old tommorrow, that his will is steadily strengthening. as he develops emotionally, he is starting to form stronger opinions about what he wants, and he likes to do things for himself more. along with that, he can now get angry if we do something for him that he wants to do himself, or if we do things a way he doesn't want us to. i think its good that he forms his own opinions about things, and if its reasonable i'll go along with it, but he's also learning about the downside of having opinions - sometimes being wrong 

so as he is developing his own take on things, i think its important that he feels confident in doing so. shaming him relentlessly as was often done in the assembly just seems so destructive to his fledgling confidence. i'm not saying noone should ever feel bad about what they do, but healthy well-adjusted people (and kids) seem to feel plenty of guilt naturally. i think its my job to teach him healthy ways to deal with guilt, like making things right when possible and avoiding actions that hurt or disrespect others. i think an important distinction is to identify his action specifically as what he should be feeling bad about, as opposed to feeling bad about himself as a person.
this where the assembly went horribly wrong - in the assembly, tiny infractions such as being a few minutes late or not cleaning someone else's house perfectly for them were blown way out of proportion and used to characterize the offender as the worst of sinners.  'he who is unfaithful in little is unfaithful also in much' etc. this produced a stressful atmosphere that encouraged shallow conformism while allowing many hurtful behaviors to flourish. of course, i am speaking of how it was applied to adults here, but the same perspective was applied to kids with an even heavier hand, in some of the cases i observed.

i just want to say i do believe that everyone i personally saw diciplining their kids in the assembly was doing so with the best of intentions, and out of love, and that goes a long way. thats one of the greatest things i learned in the assembly - you can make all kinds of well-intentioned but terribly misguided mistakes and if love is expressed and understood it can work out ok in the end. this is what i remind myself of in those panicky overwhelming moments

something i am deeply questioning is the assuption in the assembly that kids want to disobey out of a rebellious nature, and have to be broken of this. kids will always test where the boundaries are but it seems to me this is more part of their learning experience rather than some evil rebellion that must be crushed. my job, as i see it, is to calmly but firmly teach him where the boundaries are. we haven't used spanking yet, and i am still on the fence as to whether we will or not. it seems possible that its not so important what the punishment is, but rather that it is enforced consistently and patiently. a few of you mentioned modeling which seems like a great technique. basically, involving alex as much as possible in what i am doing and let him watch me and learn. its so simple but it seems really effective.

i have a confession - one of my occasional guilty pleasures has been supernanny  i know, its reality tv and its edited to make her look good, but she does seem to genuinely have a handle on a lot of this stuff. anyone else ever watch her? it seems like her basic assumption is that kids want to be better they just need to be taught how, and when you teach them they soak it up like sponges and love you for it.

My husband and I help each other when we get too critical of their problems and my 12 year old reminds me too.  They know they have a voice to speak up (within boundaries) about their parents behavior too.  Wow that's different.

*gasp* i like this. it seems more effective to show kids how to be respectful by showing them a healthy respect,  rather than shutting them down whenever they speak up.

outta time, gotta run,

brian

ps thanks for all the congrats, and back at ya

[Mark C.]

Hi Brian!

  As a proud Grandparent of 8, and my recent recollections of how I raised my girls in the Assembly, this topic has grabbed my attention as well. 

  As I said before, I don't think technique---or our inability to execute a particular kind of method of parenting correctly---is the most important thing in raising kids.  Not only do the kids have "fallen natures" so do the parents and this belief leads me to think that successful parenting must allow for the many mistakes that we all will make.

  The worse thing about Assembly parenting, in my opinion, was using discipline as a means to demonstrate that we were loyal followers of GG.  Some would get angry with their kids for making them look bad and this "modeled" a kind of self righteousness that kids naturally would consider wrong.

  Some of the leaders kids (think of Dave G. and his family) were witnesses to blatant hypocrisy that was very destructive!    The opposite of this would be a parenting that was redemptive in nature.  What I mean by this is that we practice and encourage honesty and God's loving acceptance of us when we fail.

  Our own humanity always throws a large monkey wrench into our best layed plans (both parent and child) and tend to mess up our methodologies.  As parents we get irritable and argue in front of the kids with our spouse, we get upset unreasonably at times with the kids annoying us, our kids find strange emotional forces in their own lives that they can't understand, etc.

  In the Assembly we just tried our best to hide these things and hypocriticaly perform our lives; and thus a huge pile of unresolved guilt lay upon both child and parent.  In the redemptive model I suggest, though we realize there is such a thing as good behavior/thinking, there is always room for loving forgiveness and not holding one another hostage to their failings.

                                                    Have a blessed Easter,   Mark C.

[Rebekah B. (Campbell)]

I have so many thoughts on this topic it is such a big deal to me.  I am an assembly kid and now have my own kids.  I have a six almost seven year old son, and twin daughters that are three.  My thoughts are often consumed by child development and child rearing theories.  I was young 21 when my son was born, and I knew that I was never going to spank my children or treat them the way assembly kids were treated.  The damage done to me was to immense, I could never subjugate a child to such discipline. What I didn't realize was how there would be times when you just naturally would fall back on the way you were raised, but these times did come and it has tested me.  I have had to work hard to educate myself in new ways.  I have taken child development courses at college,  I have gone to workshops, read numerous books, and am part of a cooperative preschool that has a child development therapist work with the parents twice a month.  I try very hard to learn new ways of doing things so that my children will grow up in a healthy home. As parents we are our children's first experience with God.  We demonstrate God to them.  God doesn't shame me, He loves me and gently restores me.  When I need to change a bad habit or fear etc... in my own life shaming or a "loving" spank(Spanking was always done out of love of course without regard to the damage it was causing) has never helped me overcome.  If this doesn't help me why would I ever do this to someone else especially a child. I have learned that when I  work on healing and forgiving myself it is then that I have the most to give to my children.  It is then that I have peace and can help my child through whatever problem they are struggling with.
So here is an example of a struggle that I just recently went through trying to balance my immediate reaction based on how I was raised to changing what was not working.  It has been ingrained in me that public school is a horrible place that doesn't honor God and is immoral.  So I was homeschooling my son because we couldn't afford private. This worked for kindergarten, but half way through first grade we were struggling, my son didn't want to do his work, and my twin girls were requiring an incredible amount of attention.  I was having flashbacks of myself being home schooled and all the tears and swats I endured just to make it through a day.  I realized it wasn't working and new I needed this to change, but what choices did I have?  It took 4 months to finally get me to the point where I could put my son in school.  After my son started school it was horrible for me and him.  The adjustment was very hard.  My son began acting out every time he came home from school.  My first reaction was to be very stern with him and let him know that these behaviors were unacceptable and inappropriate I had doubt maybe I should spank him for acting out and let him know how bad he was for doing this.  I have learned to not respond to these doubts.  I spoke with a friend who is a marriage and family therapist, and re read some parts from the book "How We Love" by MIlan and Kay Yerkavich.  I decided to try a new plan.  When my son was in a calm moment I talked with him about how hard this transition was for him and that we all can have overwhelming feelings.  Together we made a plan for the next time one of these angry outbursts came up.  Sure enough it did.  He had decided when angry he would take a break by himself, we drew pictures in a book to help, these weren't the most effective.  What helped him the most was a nice warm bath and a hot towel.  We made a chart in several hour increments and if he could manage his anger than there was a star if he could manage his anger for more of the day than not we allowed him to do something special.  After a months time this is no longer necessary he was able to work through his emotions in a loving and supportive environment.  What if I had decided to follow through with my doubts and spank and shame him?  I believe he would have then found some way to cover up his emotions and hold them inside even if on the outside he was conforming.  I prefer to deal with the emotions now and help them grow into a healthy person than to have them shamed or paddled into perfection.  This is all I will write for now.  I know this hasn't been responded to in a long time, but just reading about the topic stirred up some emotions and I needed a chance to express.
Thanks Rebekah

[brian]

wow, has it really been a year since i posted on this topic??
alex is two years old now. he's a great kid. he is picking up words and phrases left and right, new ones every day it seems like.
i too have not seen the need for spanking at this point. alex is one of those sensitive kids who seems to respond better to consistent firm guidance than to stern correction. when the chips are down, i think we gravitate towards what is familiar, for better or worse. i would doubtlessly be taking a sterner approach with him if left to myself, but fortunately i am balanced by his mother who has an exceptionally gentle and caring nature. i am always worried that we are not being strict enough, or too strict, etc. but he seems to be thriving, and to have a good nature, so i can just hope we are heading generally in the right direction.
thanks for sharing your experiences. twins sound like such a handful! and i can identify with that feeling of uncertainty that goes along with trying to raise our kids in a very different way than we were. heading off into the unknown in the most important responsibility we will ever face can be terribly daunting. one of the most important factors of a child's sense of wellbeing is feeling loved, and it sounds like your kids have that in spades - not only because of your affection, but because of the time and effort you put into raising them.

brian

ps personally, i fully support schooling outside of the home. i've seen home schooling go badly too many times to be comfortable with it. i think what they learn by dealing with the outside world from a young age is very beneficial later in life. its just my opinion, based on my personal experience.

[outdeep]

I identified the shame-based way my mother treated me as a contributor as why I didn't see anything wrong with the shame-based methods of the Assembly.  It seemed so natural. 

My raising kids was a hodge-podge.  I did what I was taught (spankings, etc.) with the oldest and some with the youngest.  I also was a bit permissive on things because I saw what over-control did.  Of course, I went too far some some areas opening the door too early to some things.

By the time they reached high school, I learned how important it was to always keep communications open no matter what our disagreements.  I sometimes wanted to kick their butt out of the house but I realized that if I did things in anger, I could close doors forever.  So I figured out the best place to talk with them - driving in the car, going out to breakfast, working together, whatever, and did my best to stay in conversation.

For the most part, it worked.  Both boys are doing well and I feel they like me and respect me.  I know some of my friend's peers who are still in rebellion and despise their parents.

As for home school vs. public.  I think a sweeping generalization of "home school is bad because I know a few people where it didn't work . . . " is just as incorrect as the "all public school is bad" generalization.   Home schooler have, by and large, had great success.   There are hundreds of such families in the small community I live in and thousands in our state.  But it has to be done for the right reason with the right resources.  Those who do it because they have control issues and want to shelter their kids tend not to be as successful.

[brian]

As for home school vs. public.  I think a sweeping generalization of "home school is bad because I know a few people where it didn't work . . . " is just as incorrect as the "all public school is bad" generalization.   Home schooler have, by and large, had great success.   There are hundreds of such families in the small community I live in and thousands in our state.  But it has to be done for the right reason with the right resources.  Those who do it because they have control issues and want to shelter their kids tend not to be as successful.

i agree - i wasn't trying to condemn all home-schooling as being a bad thing. i was speaking from my personal experience: pretty much all the homeschooling situations i am personally familiar with fall into the latter category of being done because of control issues with disastrous long-term results. i'm sure there are people out there who do it for better reasons and in more healthy ways. i wanted rebekah to know that, as a fellow assembly kid, and for what its worth, i think there are definite benefits to sending kids to public school. even in a small private christian school i felt the impact of being overly sheltered. it wasn't easy transitioning to public school but it would only have been more difficult if i had been older, i think.

brian

[Rebekah B. (Campbell)]

Yes, in no way am I saying home schooling is better or worse than public school.  It is individually based.  Where I am living there are some great charter schools and home schooling programs with tons of fabulous families that are succeeding.  I was just talking about me and where I am at.  I didn't like my home schooling experience. I also had a very difficult transfer into  high school, a small private christian school which had a pastor as the principle who was put into jail in my junior year for molesting a girl in school for two years.  I know things can go wrong in any situation.  It is the ability to evaluate the situation you are in and make choices for the best interest of your family that seems so important to me.  Sometimes I feel I have to struggle so much to figure out what would help my situation be better.  I have to struggle with all these thoughts that come up from what was imprinted on me as a child raised in the assembly. I have no pre-assembly days to fall back on, there are no experiences that happened before.  It is so great to get some feedback and have a place to share and hear what others think that were in the same situation as me.  I am so glad there is this assembly kids section.  I think  within a few years there will probably be more of us on here, as the assembly kids begin their own families.
Rebekah
Ps. Thanks for the encouragement