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Author Topic: Let's Be Honest  (Read 15722 times)
al Hartman
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« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2003, 01:24:26 pm »

     Responses to this topic are extremely gratifying.  If the quality and quantity of praying are anywhere near those of the comments, we can expect wonderful results.

     Did you notice that within four-and-one-half minutes of the original posting, it was countered with the very sort of reactionary remarks that moved me to start this thread?  Sister Eulaha's knee-jerk was so severe it probably struck her chin.  What i want everyone to know is that, mere  minutes later (as soon as she had counted her teeth & found they were still all there?), Sister Eulaha had apologized to me in a personal email, and i had apologized for causing her distress.  She is a delightful and gracious  saint.  We have exchanged several emails, and shall probably continue to remain in contact.
     That is the kind of reconciliation that should be normal among the Lord's children.  That is why i started this thread, and that is why i continue in it now...

     Sometimes, when i think i'm being perfectly clear in my written presentation, i'm probably over-writing for some and under-writing for others.  That is why i pray for guidance, clarity and censure when i write, as we all must in reading and listening to ministry.  There is never a time, no matter how sure we are of our own understanding, when it is safe to lean upon that understanding-- we ALWAYS need to trust in the Lord.  Trusting in the Lord is an activity-- it must be DONE-- it doesn't just "happen" to us.

     May i clarify a couple of things?
     It was never my intent to equate George and Betty to Hitler, and i don't believe i did so.  What i said was that some of the things being said on this website place them in the same category.  i have, more than once, personally heard George publicly refer to Hitler as "a monster."  That reference probably can be found on tapes of his preaching and teaching.  It may well be a proper comment.
     But on postings within these pages, i have read
saints(?) calling George a "monster."  That is not an appropriate description of any of the Lord's children, no matter how deluded and mired in error they may be.  Such a remark is a reaction to pain, much as the oath that follows the hammer's striking the thumb.

     You also will not find that i said nor implied anything about George's and Betty's being reconciled back into fellowship (whether or not they repent).  That was not addressed by me because it was irrelevant to my point.   My message was not regarding guidelines for assemblies' discipline and/or fellowship.  Rather, it was meant to be for each reader on a personal level;  one-on-one, from my heart to yours.
     My point, then?  Get rid of the bitterness in your soul, and pray for a forgiving heart.  Harboring bitterness in your soul can poison you.  And it may grow there until it virtually destroys you.  All of your reasoning and all of your feelings may tell you that your hostility is justified, but ask yourself this:  What good does it do?  Are your venomous remarks saving sinners; encouraging saints?
     Protecting the flock, you say?  That is best done by calmer, more rational hearts and minds.  Are you yourself better served by ministry delivered in caustic emotionalism, or by one who speaks the truth in love, demonstrating an even temperament and a sound mind?

     Do you pray for these failed, corrupted former leaders to repent and be restored to their true place in Christ?  No, not restored to their former place BEFORE the saints-- that can never be-- but to their place AMONG the saints, as heirs of His salvation.  Are you willing to forgive them?
     Certainly to repent and confess to such heinous acts committed against Christ and His people is hardly within the scope of human capability.  Personally, i don't think it can happen UNLESS we support them with our prayers.  The pain of such humility and remorse as would be required must be comparable to giving birth to a rusty Humvee! (OK- i meant to make you chuckle, but i'm absolutely serious!)    
      One who truly puts himself in God's hands, willing to allow Him to do whatever it takes, could repent.  God is able to do it in him, for him.  Are you able to allow it?
     And who is willing and able to lead them to repentance?  And to stand with them, encouraging them to get right and stay right with God, even while watching them every moment from then on because of their predilection toward preying upon the weak and leading them astray.  That person(s) certainly needs our prayers.

     Thank you to every contributor to this topic.  It is thrilling that this matter is important to you.  No matter how you feel about this or any topic, give due prayerful consideration to every posted opinion.  No one of us has all the answers.  It is for this reason that God draws us together unto himself.  In Him is the fulness that each of us needs.

     Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
     To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever.

                                     Amen.                      Jude 24-25


For the Love of God,
brother al

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Mark C.
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« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2003, 10:24:04 pm »

Hi Everyone!
  Al, you certainly made me think with your last post and there are several things that did so.

  The issue of not holding on to bitterness:
     This is not so easy to accomplish and takes time and    The Lord's help as well.  One thing in regard to the issue of bitterness/forgiveness is that sometimes it is confused with a kind of what I call "easy forgetism" philosophy.  Since the topic here is honesty to just "forget" all the past abuse is not only a cruelty to those abused in the Assembly it will prevent a true cure for the Abusers.  Some in the Assembly consider such calls for a complete admission of past sins and a present clearing of themselves as some kind of a vindictive spirit.  While it is easy for the above call to be out of bitterness it does not negate the facts in the situation and that is the whole truth is very important here for proper healing.

   The 2nd thing that got my attention is the miraculous aspect of the repentance and recovery issues:
   That is a very good point!  It is truly a great mercy and a tribute to God's goodness, that leads to repentance, that has brought us all this far.  I think when we get our eye's off that point we can give into bitterness, because we think the scoundrels are getting away with something.  In fact we are all sinners and if not for the grace of God there-go- we.
   We must be very sensitive to the grief of those who have been damaged by the Assembly system and be careful to not be flippant with our calls for them to "just get over it."
 Yet, we must try to help one another get over it just the same and here is the balance between "weeping with those who weep", and "lifting another's burden" of bitterness.  If an individual has a family member who was just raped you would expect that person to have some bitterness.  To tell such a one to "just forgive and forget" would be a very cruel act.  Much later on you might broach the topic, but your initial approach would be to share the individuals pain with them.
  If you read Arthur's story on the Main Page you can see just such a "spiritual rape" going on.  He enters the Assembly scene as an innocent and open person only to be systematically used and abused!  Yes, it is subtle psychological abuse, but as the years go by just as (if not more) damaging as if it was a daily physical pounding!  It goes beyond the emotional to a destruction of his spiritual liberty and connection to a personal life with God.
  We can not just let these stories be swept under the rug as they are part of the process of recovery from abuse and hopefully a means whereby God can reach those who are still in the Assembly who are deciding that GG may be wrong, but GG's system was good.
                    God Bless, Mark
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al Hartman
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« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2003, 01:52:35 am »

Dear Saints,

     To be perfectly honest, i can't always tell if a post agrees or disagees with me, and it really doesn't matter to me either way.  The evidence that you are concerned, and my hope that you are at least as prayerful as you are verbal about your concerns, is enough for me.

PLEASE BELIEVE THESE THINGS:

     (1.)  i have no axe to grind.  i am not trying to change anyone.  God changes those who permit Him; who invite Him to.  Has something i have written offended you?  Take it before the Lord and ask Him WHY you are offended.  Maybe He wants to show you something.  But if, after honestly seeking Him, you feel that i have wronged you, post your thoughts, OR write to me personally.  i lay no claim to perfect vision, and i am not above being corrected.  

     (2.)  i am in no hurry.  My opinions come from years of experience, study, thought, prayer, and learning from my mistakes.  This is not a brag-- just a statement.  i don't expect anyone to see things exactly as i do, much less agree with me immediately.  There is no shame in experiencing anger and feeling bitter.  My wish is for you to discover that there is joyful life for you beyond those feelings-- misery doesn't have to continue forever.  ...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.  For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (Phil. 2:12-13)

     (3.)  It is entirely possible, acceptable, and sometimes even necessary to weep and to rejoice simultaneously.  Jesus wept.  He also instructed rejoicing.  He wept for us, for the state of unredeemed souls, for the NEED for His crucifixion.  He rejoiced for us, for our redemption, for the FULFILLMENT accomplished by His crucifixion.  (i oversimplify-- there is so much more!)  If you are hurting, you can share your pain with me, and i can still rejoice in the good things that God has in store for us both (not by my own strength or wisdom, but thanks to His working in me).

     "Let's Be Honest" was directed toward those of us who have known the Lord long enough and well enough to see that all things work together for our good;  that we may accept that truth, count our experiences as blessing (time invested, rather than lost), and move forward, not causing any of His little ones to stumble because of our inappropriate complaining.
     At the same time, the message is to those little ones-- those young in, or weak in, the faith-- that there is deliverance for you.  Have hope in Him whom you have begun to love and trust.  He has begun a good work in you, and will continue it...

     Many years ago-- in my pre-assembly days-- a faithful brother asked me how i was doing.  i answered, "Pretty good, under the circumstances."
     He looked at me and said, "God's people don't have to live UNDER any circumstances!  The work of Jesus Christ has delivered us from that fate!  Now come on out from under there, and walk in the Light!"
     i haven't always remembered that conversation at every appropriate moment, and that's precisely why i'm trying not
to judge anyone's experience.  My hope is that you can benefit from mine, thereby getting past some of the pitfalls i have known.

                 Blessings upon you and your house!

For the love of God,
brother al



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amycahill
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« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2003, 09:47:02 am »

Okay.  Here's my experience in recovering from various types of trauma that I have experienced in my life, NOT from the Assembly!

I first decided that forgiveness -- that is, letting go of the pain and anger, NOT necessarily reconciliation unless that was appropriate -- was a goal to work towards.  I didn't try to walk "there" directly from "here," however.

What I discovered was that, in order to reach authentic forgiveness, I had to go through the pain.  I had to be upset, to hurt, to cry, and yes, to vent.  I did what it took.  I suffered greatly.  There was a week that I ONLY made it through by calling the crisis hotline a few nights in a row and with a tranquilizer.  It was awful.  It hurt.  But I made it.

As a result of that inner cleansing, I was able to let go of my traumas.  Some of the wounds were old and simply needed to be healed.  Others dealt with people I had present relationships with and those relationships needed to be adjusted so that now they were safe and healthy for me.

So, my opinion.  Maybe you shouldn't cuss out George and Betty.  But I think you should be able to post as much as you want about how you FEEL about what happened to you.  If you REALLY want to forgive them, that is.
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lenore
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« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2004, 04:48:09 am »

 Cheesy: July 18: 2004 at 7:55 pm

I am resurrecting a post, which I dont quite get, except some very heavy disagreeing was going on.

So I will lighten this post a little if I may do so.

Out of the book: THE TALES OF THE TARDY OXCART:

UNDER THE TOPIC: HONESTY

A preacher was to peach on honesty and he told everyone to read Joshua 25.
The next Sunday he came and said.
"How many read it?"
Half the hands in church were raised.
He said.
"Great. Now you're the ones I want to talk to.
Joshua has only twenty - four chapters,
and I am especially concerned about you tonight."

Author: Bob Phillips.



So how many of you have read Joshua 25.


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lenore
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« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2005, 05:25:29 am »

February 23. 

I have debated with my self whether to get in the middle of the battle that has been going on in some posts. 

TO BE HONEST:  I dont know what is going on, I dont understand what is going on.

TO BE HONEST:  I can feel the tension. Actually feel the tension.

TO BE HONEST: It kind of disturbs me.

TO BE HONEST:  I think some sort of honesty soul searching still needs to be done in root out some old feelings that has surface and exploded into a verbal battle in giant portions.

Maybe I am wrong, and if I butting in where my butt doesnt belong, then I can live with that.

TO BE HONEST: I can see and feel, that there is still alot of hurt, bitterness, scarring that has not really healed, from the betrayal of the past, and there are some who still have not dealt with those feelings, or are still unsure of those feeling.
That is okay. 

TO BE HONEST: Maybe my prayer posting, should be the place to lay it all out so we know specifically what to pray about.

TO BE HONEST: If I am correct in this matter- Spiritual Healing and Forgiveness - maybe be the top priorities.HuhHuhHuh??

I apology for sticking my nose in where it doesnt belong.

TO BE HONEST: I needed to speak my feelings.

Lenore
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M2
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« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2005, 10:38:19 am »

February 23. 

I have debated with my self whether to get in the middle of the battle that has been going on in some posts. 

TO BE HONEST:  I dont know what is going on, I dont understand what is going on.

TO BE HONEST:  I can feel the tension. Actually feel the tension.

TO BE HONEST: It kind of disturbs me.

TO BE HONEST:  I think some sort of honesty soul searching still needs to be done in root out some old feelings that has surface and exploded into a verbal battle in giant portions.

Maybe I am wrong, and if I butting in where my butt doesnt belong, then I can live with that.

TO BE HONEST: I can see and feel, that there is still alot of hurt, bitterness, scarring that has not really healed, from the betrayal of the past, and there are some who still have not dealt with those feelings, or are still unsure of those feeling.
That is okay. 

TO BE HONEST: Maybe my prayer posting, should be the place to lay it all out so we know specifically what to pray about.

TO BE HONEST: If I am correct in this matter- Spiritual Healing and Forgiveness - maybe be the top priorities.HuhHuhHuh??

I apology for sticking my nose in where it doesnt belong.

TO BE HONEST: I needed to speak my feelings.

Lenore

Dear Lenore,

Thank you for sharing this and thank you for your prayers.  You are a real blessing and I truly appreciate your contribution here.

Much love,
Marcia
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lenore
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« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2005, 08:40:11 am »

 :)February 27:

Marcia:
Thank you for your kind words.

Honesty is a key to get right with God.
I am learning that when we bottle things up, even from each other. We can bottled them up from God.

There are still a few rooms in my heart that I have put a do not disturb sign on, and to get rid of them, requires vunerability, trust, and depending on God.

Mine is really not from the exposure of the assembly teachings, mine is from a life long victimizations of various abuses. There is still alot of guilt, hurt, open scars, mistrust, and I am a expert of building walls of protections. Most of this comes from feelings of worthlessness, no confidence, and wallowing in failures and poor little old me.  Many of these scars are not my fault,I had no control over them,  But what I do with them now is my responsibility. This is a very hard lesson for me to grasp and learn from.  In fact, I will dig in my heals, and dont allow God control over them, this is preventing me from having a personal relationship, in the way Jesus wants me to be.  A lot of this is fear of being vunerable to any type of hurt.
I can understand in my head what needs to be done, it is the matter of the heart that is a hurdle.  I am an expert of the mask, smile and say everything is alright, even though inside, I am screaming out for attention, of comfort, insecure, and aching of hurt.

When I said I could feel the tension. I can feel it, because it is the same type of tension, I felt when I am confronted with conflict, even from Sara, during on of her cyclones trantrums.
Because Sara can push my buttons, and I go right into a victimization mode. Even a snide remark from my mother, can send me right into a victimization hurtful protections , send up the wall to protect the heart mode.
I tend to protect myself so much, that I even leave God out of that high wall.

It is through talking about it, being honest where I need to be honest, especially about my own feelings. Thursday Night Mood Disorder Group helps to verbally say if our week was a good week or a bad week. Even when Pastor or someone ask how was your week. If I can I will be honest.
I wont say I am fine , when I am not. I dont go into details, I can just say, it was a good day or week or it wasnt a good day or week.

It is only when we get honest with ourselves, that we can be honest with others.
It is only when we get honest with God, will we be release from self protecting modes, which produces our negative emotions to attack others so we can feel protective.
I AM LEARNING THIS TOO. One thing I have learned in the last few years.  In the grace of God, I am becoming more patient.

Lenore
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al Hartman
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« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2005, 12:30:39 pm »



Lenore,

I just got around to reading your post below (sorry it took me so long), and I just want you to know that I can relate to every point you have made.  I may not understand each statement exactly as you mean it, but your statements certainly resonate to me and I can relate them to similar situations in my own life.

You are gaining a wonderful perception of our human nature, and I'm always encouraged when you grasp a fact of mental/emotional health and then apply it to the spiritual new creation we have become in Christ.  Thank you so very much for sharing with us...

In Christ,
al
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lenore
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« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2005, 10:07:51 pm »

APRIL 30:

I have been thinking on HONESTY alot lately. because of the journey with 40 DAYS OF PURPOSE  - PURPOSE DRIVEN LIFE BY RICK WARREN.
And the self esteem course I am taking called A TIME FOR ME

These two have been explore feelings.
Being honest about your feeling.

For the last few week since starting both, Both started the same week.

I have been like a shaken pop bottle ready to explode.

Each purpose : whether it is why am I here , to our purpose on Missions,
is all requires looking deep within ourselves and be honest to ourselve.

It is only when we get honest without self and with what we are hanging onto, or hiding from ourselves and others. To get totally honest .
Then and only then will be able to see the progress of spiritual growth in our lives.

I recently got a message from a board member, stating that I should post long lengthly postings because it was hard to follow conversations.

And I got into a bit of snit . It was an emotion that I have to own up to.

It is by HONESTY of our feelings that we can be use by God to do his purposes in our lives.

Beside sharing what I have learned is a part of the GREAT COMMISSION. Right.

Read the last week DAYS 36 TO 40 OF THE BOOK OF THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIFE.

This is my confession of honesty today!!!! Am looking for support and encouragement.

Talk to all later

Lenore
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tenderhearted
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« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2005, 01:41:39 am »

June 17th

The complete Christian Dictionary for Home and School

HONEST

adj: 1. Of people, worthy of being trusted, truthful.
'A truthful witness, gives honest testimony {proverbs 12:17}

2. Of actions, appearance, etc, having the quality of truthfulness and sincerity.

HONESTLY
adv. 1.  In a trustworthy manner


TRUE

adj 1.  In accordance with the facts; actual
''This is life eternal; That they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. - John 17:3 '''
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding , so that we may know him who is ture, and we are in him who is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God , and eternal life  -- 1 John 5:20

2. Real; sincre:
""True worshippers will worship God the Father in spirit and truth ---John 4:23'''

3.  Faithful; loyal

4.  Exact
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