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Author Topic: The God Grab Bag  (Read 84734 times)
al Hartman
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« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2005, 11:25:19 pm »



  Stimulating debate wasn't Christ's priority when He walked this sad earth.  He came to prove His love through sacrifice - did He not?  He came loving and helping, not debating and skillfully turning phrases.  What do you think? 

"Are you talkin' to me?!!" (Robert DeNiro, Taxi Driver)

What I think is that you can expect a barrage of "proof" texts that show Jesus did engage in debate, name-calling, shaming others, outrage and violence.  It's happened here before.  Nonetheless, I appreciate the purpose of your post and agree that the courage of a few will inspire others to speak up and speak out.

Many of us have spent years under the tyranny of men (and a few of us have been those men) who decided what they wanted to say, then went to the Scriptures for authoritative "backup."  They (we) preached a false gospel of "this-is-how-it's-gonna-be-or-else."  It is, as Jem points out, the natural way presiding over the spiritual:
Quote
The natural comes first and then the spiritual, eh?

It seems that those of us with strongly assertive, aggressive, and/or competetive natures want to continue as we have always done, using Scripture as an excuse to do so.  So do those who are naturally inclined to be meek, submissive, sensitive, etc. seize upon the gentler side of Bible accounts to justify the tendencies we have always had.

Neither is correct.  In Christ we are given a new "nature," that of the Man from heaven.  The passing away of the old, and the becoming of the new can be as excruciating (and seem as strange and undesireable) as the pangs of natural childbirth and natural growing pains.  It does not have to be so, but more often than not it is the rule.  We have spent a lifetime learning to behave naturally, i.e. to control and utilize our earthly natures; dare we expect to not have to learn spiritual concepts, attitudes and behavior?

Even when we have learned to pray to God in and about every situation of life, we discover that our prayers are largely "me"-centered.  If they are not directly about self, they reflect the desires of the self.

When Jesus taught those who asked Him the manner in which to pray (Matt.6:9-13), there was nothing at all of self in His words.  The primary intent of His (our) prayer was/is to glorify, honor and please God.  The requests He taught should be made are all to be stated in the plural: "Give us... forgive us... lead us... deliver us..."in light of which Peter reminds us to resist the devil, "knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world." (1Pet.5:9)  Peter goes on to say (v.10), "But the God of all grace, who has called us unto His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, make you perfect, establish, strengthen, settle you."  And Paul addresses that concept by saying, "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us." (Rom.8:18).

It doesn't come easily (because it doesn't come naturally), but we must learn to put God before self because that is the order of things:  God, who always was, created us, and redeemed us for His own pleasure-- His is the priority and the preeminence.  And we must learn that even God's gracious redemption of us is not just about me, the individual, but about us, His Body and the Bride He is perfecting for His Son.  We must learn to view our brethren not according to their natural features, but as God sees them: beloved, precious in His sight, and we must learn to lay down our lives for them.


What I have said is not what I have learned, but what I am learning.  This board has been and is an excellent classroom for such...

All emphases within Scripture quotations are my own.

Such words as "reckon", "self", "nature", etc. may strike a sour note to some.  Please consider that these are legitimate English translations of valid Scriptural expressions.  It is their extreme misapplication, the false teachings about them that have made them seem distasteful to us.  Let us pray for each other, for the cleansing of our minds and memories, and that we may be taught by the Holy Spirit to rightly divide the Word of Truth.

Because of His grace,
al

P.S. to just me:  All of us, from every background and at every stage of growth, will have to learn to love (accept, tolerate, etc.) each other.  We're going to be living together for a very long time!  Smiley  Smiley Smiley
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Mercy4Me
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« Reply #31 on: September 08, 2005, 12:04:04 am »



Jem, Elizabeth, Mercy4Me,

I hope others will have the courage to speak out on this as you three have. It is encouraging that this subject has resurfaced in several different ways recently.   You give others courage to speak out.  Remember that people did not speak up when they were being controlled through strong personalities and took big hits for their unwillingness to be vulnerable publicly.  The strong control the less certain and less confident when the timid will not speak out.  Many of us have learned that keeping quiet when there is harshness and abuse is not a good path to take.

It is clear now that there is a pervading cold, rude, and pushy "style" of strong posters who control all others to an extent.  This must be questioned since, after all, it has been proven in recent years - the strongest intellects are not always "right."  Roll Eyes In fact, intellectuals can be some of the most irrational and love-lacking among Christians. 

The verse about "accusing and excusing" comes to mind...both are of the same mind depending on whose intellectual abilities or opinions are being scrutinized - yours or mine.   Wink

An abrasive "style" ??  Don't we tend to understate our own shortcomings and overstate those of others?  George did this.  With him the sins of others was put under the microscope and conversely his shortcomings (understated) were just chalked up as the innate passions of the Greeks.  Exactly the same brand of justifications if you ask me. 

George would have handled that false prophet, Dave Sable, in much the same way he was handled on this board for sharing his own "opinion" of how Revelation could be viewed.  He was essentially slapped for differing in opinion; he was ridiculed publicly for thinking outside the box - right or wrong. 

Ok, let's say False Prophet, Dave was dead wrong.  Is debate stimulated when someone hits you over the head and shames you for even saying or even thinking such a God-awful thought to begin with.  And then to post it.  Well!!!  Unthinkable.  "YOU SHOULD HAVE STUDIED IT TIRELESSLY BEFORE YOU POSTED SUCH A THING."  This is typical of Verne's and Tom's tyrannical "style."

Stimulating "de" bate or bait "ing" for the next meal" ?? 

I like that.  It may require more than a little extra time, however.  It may mean learning "love" in the exchange of ideas.  Stimulating debate wasn't Christ's priority when He walked this sad earth.  He came to prove His love through sacrifice - did He not?  He came loving and helping, not debating and skillfully turning phrases.  What do you think? 

frank


Thank you, frank. You hit the nail on the head. Will it make a difference? Not likely.
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Marty
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« Reply #32 on: September 08, 2005, 03:42:17 am »


Mercy, Frank, Jem, Elizabeth,

Good form!!

The ones who wish to intimidate will use verses from the bible where Jesus called people hypocrites or where he turned over tables to validate verbal and physical abuse on their part.

The fact is, those things were a means to an end, not an end in themselves.

As Frank says, the Lord’s purpose was love. Throw in John 3:16 here or John 13:34-35. Of course there are many more.

The love of Christ is not displayed where there is mocking and ridicule and condescension. I far prefer a doctrinal infant with the humility of Christ over intellectual arrogance any day. Only my opinion though.

I am not much of a poster on this board but I can certainly say Amen to your sentiments. It is that spirit that I enjoy reading.

Lord bless you.


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moonflower2
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« Reply #33 on: September 08, 2005, 03:58:00 am »

"meek" ones
And who might these be??
Quote

Just my opinion, but I think former Assembly members are even more timid from witnessing the hurt that harshness and control can cause. 
  

Most definitely an opinion not held by most, I would venture to say.
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Scruffy
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« Reply #34 on: September 08, 2005, 03:58:53 am »

Verne,

Elizabeth makes a very valid point about kindness when responding on the BB. I know personally I post so rarely because I say to myself, "Do I really want to be misunderstood or skwered by Verne or Tom today?" So I tend to stick with blogs where "Be ye kind one to another" prevails.

Since we are being "thick skinned" here's a couple of examples. "Mercy4Me's caveat is ludicrous." That comes of much better if you say, "I don't agree with Mercy4Me's caveat at the end there." Or when you say, "I see Mercy4Me's assembly training still stands her in good stead..." I don't know Mercy4Me, but it is hard to see how that statement was not meant to smart. It comes off as the salt in the very wound some people come here to work through. And in its context many of us are left wondering, "What the bleep does that mean?"

Another example on another thread is when you asked, "What does the Bible teach about the Christian doctrine of justification?" This is a tactic some of us are wary of. It seemed obvious you had a certain way of looking at justification and you were waiting to teach us what it was as soon as we tried to explain it and messed up according to you prerecorded idea of it. Some times teachers can do this to good effect in a classroom, but it is hard to pull off in any other setting without being a tad condescending and looking very pleased with one's self. Moonflower got the right answer though and you replied, "I was gonna say that..." So I was wondering why you just didn't say it to begin with because it felt to me like a trap.

If we all took a little more time when posting we could reedit for kindness. The natural comes first and then the spiritual, eh?
JEM,
you make so many valid points. I wish more people like you would post on here so that the tenor would change. Verne's point about Mercy4Me's assembly training was out of line. I wish judgmental remarks like that would have no place here. Hopefully things will change. Anyway, you obviously have a lot to offer this board. I hope you keep posting.
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Marty
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« Reply #35 on: September 08, 2005, 04:14:09 am »


Most definitely an opinion not held by most, I would venture to say.



Moonflower,

Unless you have taken a poll or something you may be only speaking for yourself and the half dozen dominant posters.

Frank shares his opinion. You are free to share yours but you certainly aren’t speaking for me when you say his opinion is “not held by most”.


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Elizabeth H
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« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2005, 04:31:42 am »

there are lots of methods being employed on this board which are just SO familiar, I just can't remember where I've seen them before!  Wink that was a joke, you are permitted to chuckle!

so far, the methods I've observed in this one topic alone are:
1. The Jesus Excuse: "Jesus used harsh words (blind, fool, etc.), so why can't I?" Well, for starters, we are not Jesus. And secondly, lots of things have been done in the name of Jesus, not all of them worth imitating (Crusades, anyone?)
2. The Fake Apology: " IF I offended you, I'm sorry..." Real apologies accept blame unconditionally.
3. The Barrage of Verses: Underlined, from-the-Greek, emphasis added, etc. If you have to use verses to back up every single point, then chances are people will suspect you having an agendized viewpoint.
4. Spiritual Lingo-Jingo: whenever I hear (or read) certain emotionally loaded words & phrases, I have an immediate knee-jerk reaction (I'm working on that!). But honestly, can we try and refrain from such overly dramatic-spiritual-lingo-jingo as "follower of the Lamb" "sands of time are sinking" "classroom of heaven" etc etc? These words have been so overused (and abused) that they have completely lost their meaning.After reading them I feel like we're going to burst into a collective chorus of "Come Thou Almighty King!"  (Again, that was a joke and you are allowed to chuckle!!) Grin

Granted, I've only been "out" for 2.5 years, so I haven't achieved objectivity yet. We all want a dialogue, but is it possible here?

In other words, you can take people out of the assembly but can you take the assembly out of people?

Post on...
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Marty
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« Reply #37 on: September 08, 2005, 04:57:14 am »




Granted, I've only been "out" for 2.5 years, so I haven't achieved objectivity yet. We all want a dialogue, but is it possible here?

In other words, you can take people out of the assembly but can you take the assembly out of people?

Post on...


How long does one have to be “out” in order to obtain objectivity? How much purifying does it take to be able to recognize rudeness?

Maybe we need a seminar to teach us the difference between right and wrong. (that was tongue in cheek, probably not funny though)




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Margaret
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« Reply #38 on: September 08, 2005, 05:14:27 am »

As an "old timer" I don't really want to interrupt this great conversation, except to say there's a new article on ga.com, based on material from Wellspring that addresses these issues. It might be helpful, or at least be something to chew on.
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2ram
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« Reply #39 on: September 08, 2005, 05:45:54 am »

I disagree with both of these comments. Revelation is a prophetic book, and does indeed indicate to us what God intends to do in the future.
The Christian is a fool who does not understand the times in which he is living. I absolutely compare the news to what is written in God's Word, take for example the appearance of strange and exotic new dieseases foretold by the "pestillences" of Matthew 24.



This is as much as saying that the Book of Revelation has less relevance for today's readers than it did for those around at the time it was originally written, a remarkable thing to say about a book whose vast majority of foretold events are yet future.

"Does not exist today"??!! Dave cannot be serious.


 
I view the nature and purpose of Scripture completely differently I am afraid.

Revelation is a prophetic book Dave. I am really quite surprised by comments like this
 
This is exactly the point. Your assumption that the first and primary intent was to speak to issues and circustance already past is only an assumption, and in my view not warranted by the book's self stated outline.
John was told to write the things which he had seen, AND the things which are, AND the things which are to come.
I get a little frustrated when I hear Christians making comments about Scripture like this because I get the sense that they have not taken the time to read the material they are making confident pronouncements about. No offense Dave.
Al I hope this more detailed response clarifies my thinking are reasons for my previous observations.
Verne

See, this is the kind of tone I was hoping to avoid when I began this thread. I am interested in discussion, not in subtle (or sometimes obvious) personal jabs at the state of posters' Christian walks. I have a feeling this is why there are not more people posting on the BB because they are afraid if they voice an opinion, they will be shut down, called fools and barraged with adamant insistence that they are wrong and others are right.

It took me a long time to work up the courage to post on this BB. But I'm just not interested in being party to religious one-upmanship, ie. who can quote the most verses, who can use the longest and most intimidating words, who is best able to show off their debating prowess.

I have questions and I'm seeking answers. But I won't be helped if topics devolve into name-calling, gloomy prognostications about the "reprobate state Christians today" or the he-said, she-said stuff.

Frankly, I've had enough of that in my lifetime. And maybe I was hoping (perhaps naively) that I might find a place of genuine examination of issues without the heavy-handed Bible-verse quoting of my childhood. That's why I tried to inject a bit of humor, to try and keep things light. That went over like a lead balloon. Undecided

Here's the thing: Sometimes I'm right. Sometimes I'm wrong. And that's OK. Because to me there is something more important than being right or wrong: it's called being kind.

Kindness matters. Without kindness you can be as right as right can be and still be absolutely wrong.

I, for one, cannot flourish in a place lacking kindness.

E.

What tone and jabs are you referring to E.??  How do you know that Verne had an unkind attitude??

Maybe you can show us how it is done "correctly" by your example, and be the one of the voices on this BB that transforms it into a place of healthy discussion Huh

2r

frank, yes mercy was "nice" to you while he condemned the BB.

Most of the rest, who commented recently on this thread, have displayed a judgemental attitude while claiming that they were being nice and kind.

Just this week we (myself and a family member) discussed this very topic.  The upfront individual openly states his judgement giving the other the opportunity to clarify.  The socially "nice" person judges and keeps his opinion to himself, thus creating an environment for misunderstanding and frustration.  Both are guilty of judging, but one is hypocritical.

2r
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moonflower2
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« Reply #40 on: September 08, 2005, 06:23:37 am »


frank, yes mercy was "nice" to you while he
SHE
Quote
condemned the BB.
2r
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Chuck Miller
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« Reply #41 on: September 08, 2005, 06:31:16 am »

Onee of many articles about "Southern Decadance" you can find on sites on the net

When people who have never spent Labor Day weekend in New Orleans ask me what Southern Decadence is, I usually take the easy way out and tell them that it's sort of like a gayer version of Mardi Gras, although Mardi Gras is pretty gay itself and Southern Decadence isn't really like any other celebration in New Orleans, or anywhere else. So maybe it's easier to explain what Southern Decadence isn't.
It's not a party to celebrate a particular holiday, like Halloween or New Year's Eve (or even Mardi Gras), although it has taken place every Labor Day weekend in New Orleans for nearly 35 years. It's not an event for the whole family. And it's definitely not for the easily shocked or faint of liver: if you're thinking of seeing out the summer in a starched polo shirt while sipping gin and tonics on an immaculately manicured lawn somewhere, don't come to New Orleans. (Or at least stay Uptown.)
First Decadence played out in 1972
According to various online histories of the event, the first Southern Decadence celebration took place in 1972 when a group of omnisexual downtown New Orleans residents - including several women and at least one Yankee - decided to hold an impromptu cocktail party and costume parade to break the late summer monotony and honor a friend who was leaving town. From such inauspicious beginnings, Southern Decadence has become one of the largest gay events in the country (the third largest, by most accounts, after Gay Pride in New York and San Francisco), with over 120,000 revelers converging on the French Quarter last year.
Since usual standards of decorum in New Orleans (at least on this side of Canal Street) are never very high to begin with, especially where alcohol is involved (and what kind of celebration in New Orleans
doesn't involve alcohol?), you can expect things to get pretty wild
over Decadence weekend. First-time visitors to New Orleans are almost invariably surprised by two of our most notable civic institutions: 24 hour bars and permissive open container laws, which not only means that you'll never hear the words "last call", but that you'll be able to take the party (and your drinks) with you wherever you choose to wander.
No tickets necessary to enjoy the party
Unlike most gay and lesbian party weekends, Southern Decadence doesn't revolve around one single ticketed party, although multiday passes are sold by the two main gay dance bars (the Bourbon Pub and Oz) which flank either side of Bourbon Street and Saint Ann. If the weekend has a signature event, though, it's the Southern Decadence parade which begins at the Golden Lantern on Royal Street on Sunday afternoon and winds its way through the French Quarter on the whim of whoever happens to be the Grand Marshal that year. Since the Grand Marshals tend to be eminent figures from the city's bar and nightlife scenes, you can expect the parade to hit most of the main watering holes in the Lower Quarter before dispersing just as informally as it began. Even if you choose not to pack your favorite wig and pair of seven-inch showgirl pumps and be on display yourself (and you are highly encouraged to do so), the costumes worn by the Grand Marshall and his (or her) retinue are not to be missed.
Leave your prudish friends and family at home
Parades and non-stop parties aside, Southern Decadence may be most famous (or infamous) for the displays of naked flesh which characterize the event - which is only fitting, since New Orleans in early September is generally the closest thing you'll ever experience to walking around in a steambath outside of a health spa. While police have started to crack down on public lewdness and pressure from a local crackpot conservative religious organization has caused the five-day festival to become a little more sedate than it was in years past, the atmosphere of Southern Decadence has stayed true to its name and public displays of sexuality are pretty much everywhere you look. Like I said, you might want to leave your more prudish friends and family at home. However, if you're open-minded enough to plan on joining the crowds this year, it's not too late to find a place to stay; New Orleans is built around the hospitality industry, and there are usually plenty of accommodations available over Labor Day weekend in and near the French Quarter to suit every taste and budget. Don't just limit yourself to looking for places to stay in the French Quarter; there are plenty of lodgings available in the Central Business District and Faubourg Marigny, and you'll appreciate having somewhere quiet yet nearby to retire to when you need a break from the crowds.
After all, the party in New Orleans never really stops - during Southern Decadence weekend or any time of year. August 31 - September 5, 2005.

Chuck Miller
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moonflower2
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« Reply #42 on: September 08, 2005, 06:50:58 am »


Moonflower,

Unless you have taken a poll or something you may be only speaking for yourself and the half dozen dominant posters.
And the same would hold true,then, for any opinion. We don't need to take polls to voice an opinion.
Quote

Frank shares his opinion. You are free to share yours but you certainly aren’t speaking for me when you say his opinion is “not held by most”.


My opinion references more than just the posters/visitors of this BB.
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vernecarty
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« Reply #43 on: September 08, 2005, 07:57:38 am »


"Are you talkin' to me?!!" (Robert DeNiro, Taxi Driver)

What I think is that you can expect a barrage of "proof" texts that show Jesus did engage in debate, name-calling, shaming others, outrage and violence. 

You underestimate the sophistication of your fellow BB posters my friend. This is not going to happen and for obvious reasons.

Onee of many articles about "Southern Decadance" you can find on sites on the net

When people who have never spent Labor Day weekend in New Orleans ask me what Southern Decadence is, I usually take the easy way out and tell them that it's sort of like a gayer version of Mardi Gras, although Mardi Gras is pretty gay itself and Southern Decadence isn't really like any other celebration in New Orleans, or anywhere else. So maybe it's easier to explain what Southern Decadence isn't.
It's not a party to celebrate a particular holiday, like Halloween or New Year's Eve (or even Mardi Gras), although it has taken place every Labor Day weekend in New Orleans for nearly 35 years. It's not an event for the whole family. And it's definitely not for the easily shocked or faint of liver: if you're thinking of seeing out the summer in a starched polo shirt while sipping gin and tonics on an immaculately manicured lawn somewhere, don't come to New Orleans. (Or at least stay Uptown.)
First Decadence played out in 1972
According to various online histories of the event, the first Southern Decadence celebration took place in 1972 when a group of omnisexual downtown New Orleans residents - including several women and at least one Yankee - decided to hold an impromptu cocktail party and costume parade to break the late summer monotony and honor a friend who was leaving town. From such inauspicious beginnings, Southern Decadence has become one of the largest gay events in the country (the third largest, by most accounts, after Gay Pride in New York and San Francisco), with over 120,000 revelers converging on the French Quarter last year.
Since usual standards of decorum in New Orleans (at least on this side of Canal Street) are never very high to begin with, especially where alcohol is involved (and what kind of celebration in New Orleans
doesn't involve alcohol?), you can expect things to get pretty wild
over Decadence weekend. First-time visitors to New Orleans are almost invariably surprised by two of our most notable civic institutions: 24 hour bars and permissive open container laws, which not only means that you'll never hear the words "last call", but that you'll be able to take the party (and your drinks) with you wherever you choose to wander.
No tickets necessary to enjoy the party
Unlike most gay and lesbian party weekends, Southern Decadence doesn't revolve around one single ticketed party, although multiday passes are sold by the two main gay dance bars (the Bourbon Pub and Oz) which flank either side of Bourbon Street and Saint Ann. If the weekend has a signature event, though, it's the Southern Decadence parade which begins at the Golden Lantern on Royal Street on Sunday afternoon and winds its way through the French Quarter on the whim of whoever happens to be the Grand Marshal that year. Since the Grand Marshals tend to be eminent figures from the city's bar and nightlife scenes, you can expect the parade to hit most of the main watering holes in the Lower Quarter before dispersing just as informally as it began. Even if you choose not to pack your favorite wig and pair of seven-inch showgirl pumps and be on display yourself (and you are highly encouraged to do so), the costumes worn by the Grand Marshall and his (or her) retinue are not to be missed.
Leave your prudish friends and family at home
Parades and non-stop parties aside, Southern Decadence may be most famous (or infamous) for the displays of naked flesh which characterize the event - which is only fitting, since New Orleans in early September is generally the closest thing you'll ever experience to walking around in a steambath outside of a health spa. While police have started to crack down on public lewdness and pressure from a local crackpot conservative religious organization has caused the five-day festival to become a little more sedate than it was in years past, the atmosphere of Southern Decadence has stayed true to its name and public displays of sexuality are pretty much everywhere you look. Like I said, you might want to leave your more prudish friends and family at home. However, if you're open-minded enough to plan on joining the crowds this year, it's not too late to find a place to stay; New Orleans is built around the hospitality industry, and there are usually plenty of accommodations available over Labor Day weekend in and near the French Quarter to suit every taste and budget. Don't just limit yourself to looking for places to stay in the French Quarter; there are plenty of lodgings available in the Central Business District and Faubourg Marigny, and you'll appreciate having somewhere quiet yet nearby to retire to when you need a break from the crowds.
After all, the party in New Orleans never really stops - during Southern Decadence weekend or any time of year. August 31 - September 5, 2005.

Chuck Miller

Certainly a greatly sanitized reportage of that annual event Chuck. I suspect most of the posters on this thread know little or nothing about this (witness the hand-wringing and lamenting over anyone daring to talk about
God judging people  Smiley). I understand the delicacy fully. I guess such things are not to be even named among believers. Informative and relevant post. My...but you are subtle... Smiley


Verne
« Last Edit: September 08, 2005, 07:59:20 am by VerneCarty » Logged
frank
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« Reply #44 on: September 08, 2005, 08:14:21 am »

Mercy, Frank, Jem, Elizabeth,

Good form!!

The ones who wish to intimidate will use verses from the bible where Jesus called people hypocrites or where he turned over tables to validate verbal and physical abuse on their part.

The fact is, those things were a means to an end, not an end in themselves.

As Frank says, the Lord’s purpose was love. Throw in John 3:16 here or John 13:34-35. Of course there are many more.

The love of Christ is not displayed where there is mocking and ridicule and condescension. I far prefer a doctrinal infant with the humility of Christ over intellectual arrogance any day. Only my opinion though.

I am not much of a poster on this board but I can certainly say Amen to your sentiments. It is that spirit that I enjoy reading.

Lord bless you.




Thank you, Marty, for your post and compliment. Like you, I prefer " a doctrinal infant with the humility of Christ over intellectual arrogance." In fact, I believe that intellectual arrogance is completely non-conducive to the child-like faith that the Lord craves from us. In many ways, children love people unconditionally until they are "taught" to hate others, so I do believe that abounding love is an essential element of child-like faith. Another aspect of child-like faith is the ability to be taught, entreated, disciplined, etc, without the pride that comes when an adult corrects another adult.  Whereas feelings of resentment and pride arise when an adult corrects another adult, a child expects it from an adult and thus takes correction far more humbly. Perhaps that is one reason that children learn faster than adults?

I would ask Verne to consider this when he has been entreated by multiple people rather than launching himself into defense mode.

Best,
Frank
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