Tom M. recently  opined that Dostoyevsky's return to a religious world-view was just "common sense", cause _there can't be laws without a lawgiver.

I have thought in recent days a lot about this re mark, cause it goes to the question of where our "moral sense" comes from, if not from some Creator.
And if I don't have a good answer, I gotta rethink a lot of my inital assumptions/

And the best I can come up with is an analogy to the well-known and well-documeted "dance of the honeybee". For those of you not familiar with thos remarkable biological fact, a honeybee who has returned from finding a new source of honey-making clover (or whatever) will do a dance on the side of the hive to let the rest of the hive know how to get to the clover.

I see Christ returning from the desert (where the devil laid the three temptations on him) in exactly this way - all he was trying to do was let the rest of the hive know where they could find the clover.

And if this analogy reverberates with anyone out there, I would ask them whether:

a) they think the dance of the honeybee implies a Creator;

b) if not, why they think the dance of ChristJesus does.

I am not asking this question to offend nor to instigate; further, for anyone willing to think seriously about this question, an appropriate context for the question is provided by a wonderful short poem by the San Franscisco "beat" poet Lawrence Ferlinghetti. I forget the name of the poem, but it's stand out line was:

"Christ was crucified on the Cadillac tree."

(This poem is also relevant to summer007's last post to the "Grace vs
Works thread.)

Best regards to all
Dave

Jem -

Thanks for taking the time to respond.  

I posted the same question to a secular opinion board at which there is very small and very beleaguered group of traditional Christians.  One of them responded to the question as shown below (beneath the asterisks), so there are some people who consider the question serious enough to answer.  I am not saying this in any sarcastic or unfriendly way, just as a response to your question.

Best regards
Dave

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>>I have thought in recent days a lot about this rremark, cause it goes to the question of where our "moral sense" comes from, if not from some Creator.<<

I say it is written in the hearts of men by the Creator. It is part of who we are.

Romans 2:14-15
"For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them"

>>…anyone out there, I would ask them…why they think the dance of Christ Jesus implies a creator?<<

I think the 40 days and the temptation is not thee moment of Christ giving us the keys to the kingdom. It is one of many. Nor do I see it profoundly implying a creator to the doubter. Elsewhere, Jesus addresses their unbelief.

John 10:37-38
"If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

Jesus performed signs and wonders, primarily because he knew that most people would not put faith in his words alone. Which is why I object to those who say our faith is a blind faith, merely built upon words. No, the signs and wonders of Jesus validate His Words, as do the signs and wonders of his select faithful that came after him.


Also: I see nothing unique about the honeybee dance (although quite interesting) because almost all animals instinctively act not on their own behalf but on behalf of the good of others. (thanks to the Creator, again.)

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Joe -

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

Like Tom's original point re "laws and the lawgiver", it gives me something to think about.

Assuming you're right, for the sake of discussion, I would ask you the following question: when did He realize He was the honey ?  If He was born with this knowledge, why the need for the desert sojourn and the 3 temptations?
I have always assumed that it was in the desert that he realized who he was.

Again, no sacrilege intended - really wanna know.

Anyway, thanks again for not dismissing the question.
Dave

Joe S -

You write:

"
When Jesus was 12 years old, it says in Luke, Mary looked for her son and found him in the Temple. Jesus said to her "Know ye not I must be about my Father's business?"  Jesus knew when he was 12 years old who he was, and what he needed to do.
"

Great scripture-spot! (seriously!)

But assuming you are intepreting the passage correctly, He knew that His Father would tempt Him and that He would successfully resist?  Or just that His Father would tempt him?

Again, am confused, am not quibbling.  
I don't understand.

Best
Dave

Dave,

I have very little time so this will be very brief.

The "argument from design" has been around for a long time.  19th Century skeptics like David Hume thought they had dismissed it by their arguments.  (which they did not actually succeed in doing, but that is another discussion.)

Anyway, discoveries about the ever increasing and mind boggling amount of finely designed characteristics of both the micro and macro universes have brought the argument from design back, big time.  Books and professional journals in astronomy and cosmology carry articles by well known scientists about the "Anthropic Principle" and what to do with it.    

The Anthropic Principle is the name these folks have given to the fact that the universe seems to be designed for human life.  I am not just talking about Christians here.  Atheists are talking about it too...and trying to find a way around it as usual.

In the micro universe the amount of design is mind boggling as well.  Increasing technological sophistication  has revealed levels of complexity that Darwin never dreamed of.

I know a Christian with a PhD. in Biology who began searching for God when he was a Darwinist.  As a graduate student he was researching cell structure in micro-organisms and began to realize..."these things didn't come into existence by accident."

His search led him to Jesus of Nazareth, who is the Christ.

So, yes, the bee's dance implies a creator.

Thomas Maddux

Dave,  What is facinating to me is because you have such a Brilliant mind some of the simple things slip past you. And some of your thought processes are incomprehensible to me, but they are intrieging nonetheless. So I marvel at your un-belief, not in an insulting way. I think your somewhat sincere. Salvation is a free gift, if you want it take it, but you seem to frustrate the Grace of God, but then again "not all men have Faith". I recieved Christ at about 3 years old...it made perfect sence to me then, as it does now. I dont understand it all, and thats where Faith has to step in for me. I know you'd probibly prefer responces from great minds like Stephen F and Tom M, etc. But I'm just trying to understand...Summer.

Dave,  Not that you asked, but I'll give you an idea as to how I logically came to belief at such a young age. In order for me to comprehend I had a vivid picture of the universe, the starry sky at night, and Jesus in the middle with out-stretched arms to me, at any minute the earth would explode, in that case, I could see no one could save me but the Lord. For you, if you knew the earth would explode in 5 to 10 minutes would you fall into the arms of the Lord, or could you find another way of Salvation? Would Paul's epistles still be tripping you up? Please remember this was my thought at 3-4 years old after going over psalm 23, and psalm 100 with my Dad who was a sunday school teacher, I was quizzed after each sunday school class on the way home, so I knew I had to pay attention and know my answers. I usually wanted to go horsebackriding, and my Dad would say can't you give God one hour for all his blessings to you, to thank him. (Guilt) I remember the felt boards and the war stories, wondering why they were doing that, why I had to know this. But I felt I loved the Lord....Just thought I'd give you some back-ground...Summer.

Joe S -

You may be aware that there are many Roman Catholics who long for the days of Masses in Latin rather than English, etc. (I believe Mel Gibson and his father are among these.)

Their reasoning is simply that they loved NOT understanding the Latin, cause they loved the MYSTERY it added to their religious experience.

I mean no offense, but I CANNOT believe that ChristJesus intended for so-called "theologians" from 50AD to 2000AD to put "mysteries" such as the Trinity and the duality of His nature between Him and all of the "us" over the past 1950
years.

So I gotta try and understand as best as I can WITHOUT ever saying, "OK, here's something I'll accept even though I can't continuously and permanently grasp it."

I wish you good fortune in your spiritual journey, and I hope this feeling is reciprocated.

Best regards
Dave