General Discussion => Any and All Topics => : Vandyyke April 17, 2008, 08:07:54 AM

: Conversation about "Moving"
: Vandyyke April 17, 2008, 08:07:54 AM
I've been chatting with someone "off" the BB for awhile. He asked a question about "Moving" here is my response, feel free to add your experience.

 Santa Barbara was an example of a liberal heathen community. They had a "Solstice Parade" every year.  No doubt in my mind George referred to it this way. If you were "in fellowship" just moving somewhere was NOT an option. For myself or anyone else who had "made a committment" moving needed approval. This meant going to the leadership and asking them what they thought about it. (This was jargon for "May I please have permission...")  but it was never openly referred to that way. Openly, it would be discussed as a decision concerning the Lord's will. At a prayer meeting it would be said, "Brother Vandave is considering moving to Santa Barbara." "Let's pray if the Lord would have this happen." Later the leaders might say something like, "Yes we believe its God's will for you to join the Saints and support the work in Santa Barbara." Or "No we don't think this is God's will for you." If a brother decided to go against "leadership's council" This would involve a certain amount of shunning. (I actually went against council" in 1985.) I told my roommates that I was praying about finishing my education with a 6 week internship in Connecticut. Tim Geftakys demanded I talk with him about it. I tried to avoid him but he confronted me and before I could finish talking to him about it he told me, "No" When I asked him, "why?" he said, "That is "out there!"  He never explained what that meant. I went "out there" anyway. Yet I was clearly told by my roommates and others that I was "Out of the Lord's will."  As only one experience of many (I was around 15 years) this only added to my poor self esteem, confirming what I already "knew" about myself. I was a substandard
brother!!!!! After the internship I moved back to Fullerton and resolved to "Be an exemplar brother!" 

  Today It is hard for me to conceive how I could have ended up in such a dysfunctional relationship as this. Yet a few months ago I ran into an old roommate who is still in this same type of "Leadership has authority" mode. He is 50'sh?  I believe I joined the group out of a personal need for all the benefits a loving family would provide. Yet the longer I stayed the more I realized that I would not be able to get remarried or obtain the education I desired. Getting remarried is adultry in the assembly and devoting the amount of time I needed to get my teaching credential just couldn't be done. So I left....


: Re: Conversation about "Moving"
: Vandyyke April 17, 2008, 08:07:31 PM
 I remember Dave Sable went to Japan? for his job around this same time. It was brought up at the prayer meeting, "Our brother Dave Sable is traveling to Japan...blah, blah, blah...."  So here I am "Mr. Novice brother"  thinking to myself, "The saints will pray for me when I go to Connecticut." However it wasn't even considered by the leaders. I think it was assumed that I was too imature? or it was assumed that I would use the oppoprtunity to "leave fellowship" (escape)?


: Re: Conversation about "Moving"
: outdeep April 19, 2008, 09:38:45 AM
My trips to Japan in 1983/1984 were actually very short business trips do I don't think they were in the same category.  They probably only got press because I worked with Steve Irons and was going so he didn't have to leave the flock so to speak.

One of the messages I wish I smuggled the tape out was one that Mark Miller gave after folks were leaving when the Irons left.  He wanted to make clear what the "scriptures taught" about leaving fellowship.  There were these possibilities:

1.  If there was herisy or immorality in the church.
2.  If someone was sent out to start a new work.
3.  If someone moved to where another Assembly was.

Any other form of leaving causes division.  Those who cause division, we mark and avoid.

I think that was the afternoon I went over to Tom Maddux' house quite distrought looking for answers.

I remember some time later after I left having the sudden awareness that "I can move anywhere I wanted to."  That was a bit revelation for me.


: Re: Conversation about "Moving"
: Vandyyke April 19, 2008, 09:53:10 AM

 Its uncanny Dave I remember that ministry! I also remeber him talking about a brother from S.B. who left fellowship and was killed in a plane crash!  I sat there thinking, "Is he saying that if I leave God will kill me?" 

   You got special press because you had priviledges!  Carte Blanch!

: Re: Conversation about "Moving"
: Vandyyke April 19, 2008, 10:00:46 AM
  A friend of mine from work attends the same Church that the Millers joined after leaving the Assembly. she is a young vibrant Christian who has heard quite a lot about the assembly from John and Leslie Kehoe.

: Re: Conversation about "Moving"
: Flora April 20, 2008, 06:13:42 AM
Thank you, Dave, for the insight into their perspective on people who move out of a locality where there is an assembly.  I was not aware of this perspective.  I only knew that the leadership was very authoritative regarding the Lord's will where people lived. 

When I became disabled and left Ottawa, my living arrangement was a constant source of argument between myself and the leadership in Ottawa.  Sometimes I would have opportunity to witness to a health care worker that was assisting me.  I would phone Armand and request prayer for this person.  I can still vividly remember Armand's mocking voice asking me: "Do you think the leadership of Ottawa sent you out there to start a new work?" I would reply that I was living where I was for health reasons.  However, I was requesting prayer for someone. 

That person's name never came up in the prayer meeting. When I mentioned this to others in the assembly, they would exhort me that I needed to tell Armand so that the name could be placed on the prayer list.

Armand's mocking question, "Do you think the leadership of Ottawa sent you out there to start a new work?", was presented to me on a fairly frequent basis.   

Your explanation now helps me understand this experience.

Thank you,


: Re: Conversation about "Moving"
: Vandyyke April 20, 2008, 07:11:40 AM

  For some reasons you and I didn't merit that kind of status. Why?


: Re: Conversation about "Moving"
: Vandyyke April 20, 2008, 08:28:32 AM

   I think I've figured it out. Dave was given preferential status because of his natural charm and good looks.

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