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Author Topic: Tell the Whole Story  (Read 17325 times)
Mark C.
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« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2007, 09:17:08 pm »

Hello Tom,

 I think that Joe's comments probably say best what I've been trying to say here, and if they are not persuasive in convincing you re. the problems with your original question then we will just have to agree to disagree.  I find myself repeating the same arguments and possibly I am not making my position clear enough.  To me, this discussion is not an attempt to win a debate, but the need to provide vindication for people like Joe (there are many former members like him). For those that can't understand what Joe and I are trying to say I would only ask that you pray about it and be willing to consider what we've said.

 Tom, you said: "These people (Assembly leaders) didn't care about you then and they don't care about you now."  A very poignant and astute statement that I thought in one short sentence could be written on the tombstone of the Assembly as the best way to remember the heart and soul of a group that called itself "God's best."

  A group that had "80-100%" (this is just one of Trac4. comments that I was asking for your thoughts on) worth of correct teaching that didn't care one whit about it's members! Cry  When former members think that this group was really involved in much good that needs to be remembered they will carry that same unloving heartlessness out to the next church they get involved with.  Somewhat orthodox teaching, good outreach methods, and the like are absolutely nothing without the expression of God's love (1:Cor 13).

For those open to considering the dynamics of how abusive religious organizations function and the spiritual and psychological damage they inflict there are those that can explain it much better than I can.  Please read, "Toxic Faith", "Churches That Abuse" and "Recovering From Churches That Abuse", and "The Subtle Power Of Spiritual Abuse."  In all of these works, though, it could just be said that these groups, "didn't care about their members then and they don't care now'! Cry

                                                        God Bless,  Mark C.
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Oscar
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« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2007, 09:07:40 am »

Mark,

When I made the comment about not caring, I was thinking of former leaders who were hard hearted and stiff necked in the past, and still are.  The former Great Potato from the SFV is an example.  That, however, does not describe everyone who was there,or in any of the local groups.

Over the years, Mark, you taught or preached on many occassions.  Are you willing to say that you never did it with the major motive of encouraging and enabling God's people?  I know that you had a sincere desire to help and encourage.  Sure, you had other motives too...that is our human condition. Our inner lives are a mixture of good and evil. 

I can honestly say, Mark, that I never preached with a desire to wound or destroy anyone.  I used to pray fervently that the saints would be helped by what I said.  Did it always happen?  I don't know.  But many, many times folks told me that they were encouraged after I spoke. Was what I taught or said always 100% spot-on perfect?  Nope, some of it was just plain silly. 

Once I talked to a brother who had been excommunicated.  We were discussing our sense of having wasted many years of our lives.  He said, "What I did, I did as unto the Lord".  I know that he also did some unwise and sinful things in his assembly years.  But he wanted to serve God during most of his time there.  There were many, many men and women there with that desire.  I believe you and I were among them.

That, Mark, is why I do not agree with likening the assembly to an abusive marriage, but instead liken it to a small town with a corrupted leadership.  There were many heart desires and acts of service by sincere and well intentioned people that, I believe, God received as offered up to him.

Yes, all the negative garbage is true as well.  But it exists alongside the other things.  It doesn't cancel them out or make them as if they never happened.  Remember, the Bible describes Lot's heart as he lived in the midst of what was probably the most corrupt society in history.  God's description of Lot was that he had "rescued  righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men", (2 Peter 2:7).  Evil and good can exist together, and usually do.

Glad you came through the fires ok, Mark.  BTW, I was looking at an old photo that had your mom in it the other day.  How is she?

Blessings,

Tom Maddux
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Mark C.
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« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2007, 09:35:01 pm »

Hi Tom!

  It is a good thing to discuss this and attempt to gain some clarity, but such a discussion becomes combative because of the strong individual prejudices involved (I will admit I have a strong emotional bias).  Trying to evaluate what made the Assembly tick by ones individual experiences alone, and without the benefit of making certain generalizations, have made this topic somewhat difficult.  To some "the abusive marriage" analogy will be perfect (Judy, etc.), to yourself the "small town" concept is a better one and to me "the dysfunctional family" analogy fits best.

  The Assembly was more than the sum of many different individual experiences; it had a way of operating that established certain social dynamics that trumped any of the individual good will of a particular member---- good people were trapped in the same system with those who were not so good.  The Assembly rewarded those loyal to it and punished those who challenged it. 

  Of course, there were many who were truly saved and who "did what they did as unto the Lord", but when it came to successfully challenging the system none of these sincere motives were effective in changing anything.  Those (like the Big Potato  Wink) who were firmly in charge made sure that the members were effectively cowed into submission.

  It is that single fact, that bad people controlled the group, and this shows that the true operative nature of the Assembly was a cultic one.  The most important goal of the group was the preservation of GG's power and the maintenance of the support system that served that selfish goal.  So, though many individual members may have been serving "as unto the Lord", they did so in a group that was controlled by those who not only could care less about the members, but really could care less about the Lord.

  Here's an illustration from my own experiences:  Shortly after being forced out of the group in the Valley for attempting to question the system I received a phone message from a certain "Sister" who wanted to talk to me.  When I called another "Sister" (she lived in a house with other "Saints") answered the phone and told me that I could not talk with the person who left me the message.  I asked, "why?"  She proceeded to tell me that I "was of the Devil, a liar, deceiver, etc."  Now, I had formerely known this girl as a sweet and devoted follower of Jesus Christ.  She had come forward after ministry and told me often how my ministry had blessed her, and my wife had spent much time with her on an individual basis as well.

  I can relate many more such stories as the one above where loyalty to the group was the primary controlling operating force.  This turned a sweet and sincere sister of Christ into a fierce hate filled attack dog that actually caused her attitudes and behavior to operate in opposition to God's intention.     

  I understand that she was acting out of her state of deception, and therefore I feel only pity for her (and those like her), but the fact still remains that her sincere desire to serve Christ had become so manipulated by GG and company she thought that in doing what she did she was "doing service to God."

  So, though "everyone" did not as individuals reflect the hard hearted and stiff necked attitudes, if you wished to remain there, you had to submit to the absolute domination of GG's claim as being God's rep. and that what he dictated was the law of God!

  There were only three choices:

 1.) Support the system above all else by demonstrating your absolute devotion and loyalty to those in power.

 2.) Keep any objections to yourself by passively accepting whatever happens without comment. However, you will never gain the loving support of those in power.

 3.) Leave.  And when you leave, face the fact that all the "beloved saints" will have nothing to do with you and consider you as "being of the devil."

  Yes, God knew many of us were well intentioned while in the group, but good intentions by themselves don't always translate into just and loving behavior.  These are the most important lessons to learn from our past in the group, and our recollections must be accompanied with the honest fact that we supported this cult---- either actively, or by our silent submission to it.

  Yes, (and thanks) we made it through the fire okay.  My Mom lives with us now, and she stayed with us and the dogs crowded in a motel room for the week.  She just turned 85 and is as spry as ever!

                                                                             God Bless,  Mark C. 
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outdeep
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« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2007, 06:53:41 pm »

Dave: I saw the "Samaritan Purse" semi parked down the street from me.  Can I help your people out as they minister here? Great opportunity to show the love of God to folks reeling from their losses. 
Hi Mark,

The more official way is to call Nicole Franklin at Samaritan's Purse (828)262-1980 and she can get you scheduled.  The lady who prints the receipts works in my department and her husband is in SD and oversees the disaster relief trailers.  I talked to her today.  When she talks to her husband she will ask if there is a more direct contact they have out there locally.

Thanks for your interest in this.  Two years ago, I worked at a site in Kilm, Mississippi after Katrina.  Because my handyman abilities are limited, booting down soggy sheet rock and spraying bleach on the wood frame was in my skill set.  Folks kept telling us what heros we were for coming down but it made me feel awkward as I felt they were the courageous ones who had to stay there and rebuild their lives.

-Dave
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