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Author Topic: One for TomM: ChristJesus and the Dance of the Honeybees  (Read 11803 times)
Joe Sperling
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« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2004, 04:22:15 am »

David----

I wish you all of the best too. But it isn't theologians that have put "mysteries" in between God and us for
1950 years.  There are simply some things that God has chosen NOT to explain or reveal to us. The Bible clearly teaches there is a Trinity, but God never explains in detail exactly what the Trinity is, or how it appears---we simply know that God is in three persons.

All I am saying is that there are some things that defy scientific explanation and are in the realm of faith alone. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen"(Heb. 11:1). I do not wish for some mysterious Mass in Latin. I am simply stating that some things are known minutely---God has shown us only a glimpse---the rest must be taken by faith. Because they are ETERNAL things and we are FINITE beings. When we begin to think we can understand everything, and things infinite and eternal, with our puny minds, then we begin to do what J. Vernon McGee used to say the Atheist is really doing---he is saying to God on his throne "Move over a little bit God, there's two of us now" Grin.

--Joe
« Last Edit: September 03, 2004, 04:39:22 am by Joe Sperling » Logged
M2
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« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2004, 04:46:29 am »

summer007 -

nope, you're wrong; SF and TM may know more formal theology than you, but the question of how a person acquires an internalized relationship with ChristJesus is a "heart" question as well as a "head" question; some might say it is only a "heart" question.

Also, you realize I hope, that just as it would be very difficult for you to morph from believer to non-believer because you internalized ChristJesus at 3, it is equally difficult for me to morph from non-believer to believer because my Dad taught me to rely on one's own mind and one's own mind alone in matters of judgment.  (of course, he assumed that he was prepping my mind appropriately by his own example of how to lead an upright life without benefit of belief.)

Best regards
Dave

Dave,

Good point about the head/heart question.

(different point) And summer does have a 'heart' for the Lord.

The rest of your response ties in to something you mentioned re. works.  You said, 'many posters to the AB view any "Works" doctrine as suspect, because abuse of this doctrine was rampant in the sect to which many posters once belonged.'  I will discuss the "works" doctrine on the other thread, but the point about considering it suspect I will discuss here.

You are correct that our experiences/background influences how we "feel" about certain doctrines.  Possibly that is the "issue" you are having with accepting ChristJesus as your Lord and Saviour.  Your Dad gave you some good advice, but you are now limiting yourself from accepting truth because of that advice.

I suggest that you try the "heart" route now that you have done some investigation.  Have you ever actually asked God something like, "God, if there is a God, show me if these things are true."?  Read one of the gospels(John) too after you have prayed to God.

Lord bless,
Marcia
« Last Edit: September 03, 2004, 04:50:02 am by Marcia » Logged
summer007
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« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2004, 08:10:08 am »

Dave,  Fair enough on the difficulty of morphing (unless of course your a power-ranger) I know my indoctrination at an early age is somewhat of an advantage, depending on how you look at it. The contraints of Christianity could be disputed. I once dated an atheist (brings up the un-equally yoked issue) He'd say my faith was good if it made me feel better, that was it. To him nothing was out there..........I could'nt believe he really did'nt believe. I know that sounds naive, but it was facinating to me. I was in a cold phase of faith at the time and it really brought me closer to God making me realize I did believe, maybe not perfectly, but nonetheless I believed. I just needed to forgive myself God had already forgiven me. This in light of my divorce and lack of trust in God at the time. I knew I was'nt on fire for God, so I thought cold was better, more honest, then lukewarm making God sick. So I see your point that your questions may generate answers to others while you may never be able to believe yourself. Lest anyone of us think we could lead you to saving knowledge of Christ. I hope this makes some sence to you....Summer....p.s. I get the feeling I'm in over my head with you.  p.s.s why do you type ChristJesus with no space? what does that mean???
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Oscar
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« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2004, 10:39:51 am »

Joe -

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

Like Tom's original point re "laws and the lawgiver", it gives me something to think about.

Assuming you're right, for the sake of discussion, I would ask you the following question: when did He realize He was the honey ?  If He was born with this knowledge, why the need for the desert sojourn and the 3 temptations?
I have always assumed that it was in the desert that he realized who he was.

Again, no sacrilege intended - really wanna know.

Anyway, thanks again for not dismissing the question.
Dave

Dave,

The purpose of the temptation in the wilderness is that Christ is the second Adam.  Adam was tempted, disobeyed, and fell.

Jesus was tempted, obeyed God and triumphed.  He fulfilled all righteousness.  At the end he could pray, "I have brought you glory on the earth by completing the work you gave me to do."  (John 17:4)

As the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, he had to be a perfect sacrifice.  Sinless and pure.

Thomas Maddux
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dhalitsky
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« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2004, 12:27:57 pm »

Tom -

Thanks for the interpretation; is is internally self-consistent and I appreciate it for that reason.  Seriously.

The problem for the non-believer (in the traditional sense) is that it is a long long long leap from:

 "I have brought you glory on the earth by completing the work you gave me to do."  (John 17:4)
"
to:

"
Jesus was tempted, obeyed God and triumphed.  He fulfilled all righteousness.  
As the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, he had to be a perfect sacrifice.  Sinless and pure.
"

The "work" He was given to do could simply have been to awaken a new level of moral sensibility in people - the hypothetical imperative in Kant's terms.  One can believe literally in His Crucifixion and Resurrection and even His status as the
Son of God without necessarily believing in the "sacrifice" idea - which is really
a very old, very primitive, and VERY ignorant idea from the Judaeo- part  of the Judaeo-Christian heritage.  In fact, one  of the main reasons I rejected Judaism as a religious possibility very early in my life is that I couldn't understand how one could take seriously the theology of a people who thought there was a real BEHAVIORAL difference in idol-worship (praying to statues) and pouring blood over stones to honor their own Deity (of course I know there was a CONCEPTUAL difference between idol-worship and monotheism.)

But oddly, even though I think the whole "sacrifice" basis of Christianity is an unfortunate inheritance from its ancestor religion. I believe that the temptations in the desert ARE nonetheless the central fact of Christ's own private human experience on earth. WE as humans crucified him, not to fulfill some plan, but because WE as humans betrayed and denied him.  But He, Whomever He was or wasn't, underwent the temptations on His own.  WE had nothing to do with that.
 
Best regards
Dave
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Oscar
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« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2004, 08:47:29 pm »

Tom -

Thanks for the interpretation; is is internally self-consistent and I appreciate it for that reason.  Seriously.

The problem for the non-believer (in the traditional sense) is that it is a long long long leap from:

 "I have brought you glory on the earth by completing the work you gave me to do."  (John 17:4)
"
to:

"
Jesus was tempted, obeyed God and triumphed.  He fulfilled all righteousness.  
As the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, he had to be a perfect sacrifice.  Sinless and pure.
"

The "work" He was given to do could simply have been to awaken a new level of moral sensibility in people - the hypothetical imperative in Kant's terms.  One can believe literally in His Crucifixion and Resurrection and even His status as the
Son of God without necessarily believing in the "sacrifice" idea - which is really
a very old, very primitive, and VERY ignorant idea from the Judaeo- part  of the Judaeo-Christian heritage.  In fact, one  of the main reasons I rejected Judaism as a religious possibility very early in my life is that I couldn't understand how one could take seriously the theology of a people who thought there was a real BEHAVIORAL difference in idol-worship (praying to statues) and pouring blood over stones to honor their own Deity (of course I know there was a CONCEPTUAL difference between idol-worship and monotheism.)

But oddly, even though I think the whole "sacrifice" basis of Christianity is an unfortunate inheritance from its ancestor religion. I believe that the temptations in the desert ARE nonetheless the central fact of Christ's own private human experience on earth. WE as humans crucified him, not to fulfill some plan, but because WE as humans betrayed and denied him.  But He, Whomever He was or wasn't, underwent the temptations on His own.  WE had nothing to do with that.
 
Best regards
Dave

Dave,

what you refer to as my "interpretation" is what has been believed by Christians for 2000 years.  It is without question what was believed by the New Testament writers.

One example of this is found in I Corinthians 15:3-5.  

"For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance; that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,  and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve."

Biblical scholars say that Paul, (writing in 56AD), is quoting a liturgical saying that dates to within 5 years of the crucifixion!  In other words, it dates from around 38AD.

Notice that it says "Christ died for our sins" and then points out that this was "according to the scriptures".

This is in accord with Isiah 53:1-12 where the suffering servant is described.  He "was pierced for our transgressions, and he was crushed for our iniquities" (V5)  The "punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed." (V6).  "The Lord  has laid on him the iniquity of us all". (V7).   "Yet it was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days." (V10).

So, the idea of an atonement through sacrifice is a "cover to cover" idea in the Bible.  To try to reduce Jesus of Nazareth, who was the Christ, to a mere moral example is to gut the Scriptures of their central theme.

It is, quite frankly, to create an  imaginary ChristJesus that is very different from the one revealed in the New Testament.  If you wish to relate to reality through an imaginary being, no one can stop you.

But what will release you from the guilt of your sins?  (Please don't tell me you've never sinned.)

A ChristJesus who's entire life and ministry was merely for the purpose of telling people, "be nice to each other" can't do that.

Thomas Maddux
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summer007
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« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2004, 06:40:54 am »

Dave, Is there a reason why you write ChristJesus like that ? just curious...You may have over looked the question in my last post ...Thanks Summer.
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dhalitsky
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« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2004, 08:08:59 am »

summer007 -

Sorry - I forgot to reply.

It's my way of always remembering that Christ is not like a last name, but
a title:

Richard, the King
King Richard or KingRichard

Jesus, the Christ
Christ Jesus or ChristJesus

Sorry if it bothers/bothered you - I didn't mean anything more than to emphasize
what the Christ in Jesus Christ actually is/means.

Best
Dave
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dhalitsky
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« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2004, 08:13:52 am »

summer 007 -

Should have added that Christ= The Anointed, but I figured everyone at the AB
already knew this.  

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Definition:   \Christ\, n. [L. Christus, Gr. ?, fr. ? anointed, fr.
chri`ein to anoint. See {Chrism}.]
The Anointed; an appellation given to Jesus, the Savior. It
is synonymous with the Hebrew {Messiah}.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

In this defintion, the Greek verb "chri-ein" is given in its infinitive form,
like French "parl-er" = "to speak".

Dave
 
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