Christian = Arch Conservative?

[David Mauldin]

The FLQ had to do with the Fun Loving Queers who avioded the draft and sought refuge in Canada.

[David Mauldin]

Marcia,  Michael Moore is an independent who is a critic of democrates and republicans alike.  I became aware of politics during the 8os when an obnoxious jerk I worked with slammed his republican views down everyones throat.  I have always believed that the government should take an active role in education.  This is the vision of Thomas Jefferson and the best way to keep citizens from being taken advantaged by their leaders.
Also, I  think our country (the U.S.A.) (over 40% do not have coverage) is way behind in healthcare benefits for its citizens. (I have worked in healthcare for over 24 years)  I also am a public school teacher. Lenore?  I never claimed to be a history buff.  I have claimed to be very uneducated and in the last post I said I really didn't understand the Yugoslavia situation.  I do have a B.A. in Liberal Studies and have done a lot of reading on my own (15 years in the assembly with no T.V. will do that to you.) Forthe past 10 years I have studied the Viet Nam war.  I have asked the questions.  Why? What went wrong?  How could a little island of communist Viet Cong defeat the U.S.A.?  my conclusions were, 1.  we were fighting against people who believed in what they were doing more than we did.  2.  It is impossible to fight an enemy who wont play by your rules.  These are the same problems I could forsee happening in Iraq.  Yes an uneducated fool as myself could forsee it.  How ironic?  I have also read about 20 books on the civil war.  My folks were confederates!  I have just finished teaching 6th grade and had to do a lot of research in ancient history, Egyptians, Greeks, Romans.  (My understanding of the scriptures was greatly enlightened by this research!) As for the FLQ  I have enjoyed G.O.s Animal farm because it shows the failures without destroying the ideal!

[M2]

Marcia,  Michael Moore is an independent who is a critic of democrates and republicans alike.  I became aware of politics during the 8os when an obnoxious jerk I worked with slammed his republican views down everyones throat.  I have always believed that the government should take an active role in education.  This is the vision of Thomas Jefferson and the best way to keep citizens from being taken advantaged by their leaders.
Also, I  think our country (the U.S.A.) (over 40% do not have coverage) is way behind in healthcare benefits for its citizens. (I have worked in healthcare for over 24 years)  I also am a public school teacher. Lenore?  I never claimed to be a history buff.  I have claimed to be very uneducated and in the last post I said I really didn't understand the Yugoslavia situation.  I do have a B.A. in Liberal Studies and have done a lot of reading on my own (15 years in the assembly with no T.V. will do that to you.) Forthe past 10 years I have studied the Viet Nam war.  I have asked the questions.  Why? What went wrong?  How could a little island of communist Viet Cong defeat the U.S.A.?  my conclusions were, 1.  we were fighting against people who believed in what they were doing more than we did.  2.  It is impossible to fight an enemy who wont play by your rules.  These are the same problems I could forsee happening in Iraq.  Yes an uneducated fool as myself could forsee it.  How ironic?  I have also read about 20 books on the civil war.  My folks were confederates!  I have just finished teaching 6th grade and had to do a lot of research in ancient history, Egyptians, Greeks, Romans.  (My understanding of the scriptures was greatly enlightened by this research!) As for the FLQ  I have enjoyed G.O.s Animal farm because it shows the failures without destroying the ideal!

David M,

Yes, obnoxious people can definitely turn others off what they were being obnoxious about.

I can see your parallel points re. Vietnam and Iraq.  Vietnam was a fiasco.  I pray that Iraq will not be the same.  Have you seen Path to War, the HBO production on the Johnson administration's Vietnam policy?

Re. health care, Clinton promised to implement a government controlled health care system, but failed to do so.  I heard that sometimes the doctors/nurses charge ridiculous rates if one has health insurance, like $10 to administer a Tylenol.

Lord bless,
Marcia

[outdeep]

"We were used to such things in the communist days."

Vaclav Klaus, president of the Czech Republic, after watching the Michael Moore documentary Fahrenheit 9/11. He predicted that the film would have little impact on public opinion in the nation: "Everybody has open eyes and can understand that this is propaganda." —•

http://www.worldmag.com/newsite/content/subscriber/displayarticle.cfm?id=9420

[al Hartman]

"We were used to such things in the communist days."

Vaclav Klaus, president of the Czech Republic, after watching the Michael Moore documentary Fahrenheit 9/11. He predicted that the film would have little impact on public opinion in the nation: "Everybody has open eyes and can understand that this is propaganda." —•

http://www.worldmag.com/newsite/content/subscriber/displayarticle.cfm?id=9420

Dave & All,

     Klaus has not spent his life in the USA & is viewing the situation through Czech eyes.  With their national history, the average Czech is surely far more politics/propaganda-savvy than the average American.  As a nation, we have grown docile & sloppy from living in relative safety, while Czech fortunes, families, & lives have hinged on what is done by those who hold the microphone & address the cameras...

just my opinion,
al

[outdeep]

How's this for accountability?

-Dave

Illinois Paper Hits Michael Moore for Copyright Infringement
Mon Aug 2, 7:01 PM ET


Published: July 31, 2004
   

NEW YORK The Pantagraph newspaper in Bloomington, Ill., has sent a letter to Michael Moore, drafted by its lawyer, citing him for copyright infringement, admonishing him for his "unauthorized ... misleading" use of the paper in his film "Fahrenheit 9/11," and asking for an apology.


It is also seeking compensatory damages of exactly one dollar.


"While we are highly flattered to be included in the movie," said the newspaper's President and Publisher Henry Bird, "we are a bit disturbed that our pages were misrepresented."


Early in the movie, according to the paper, a large headline appears in the film, purporting to be from a Dec. 19, 2001, edition of the paper, and reading "Latest Florida recount shows Gore won election." The paper contends that the headline actually appeared on Dec. 5, 2001, in much smaller type, and above a letter to the editor, hardly a factual news story or editorial.


The letter to Moore from the paper calls this a "misrepresentation of facts." The newspaper said it had been unsuccessful in attempts to reach Moore through his film company, Lion's Gate, by phone and e-mail.


"In an instance that The Pantagraph prints material in which there is a mistake, it is corrected," the letter to Moore reads. "It is our hope that you would adhere to the same high ethical standard."


Moore could not be reached for comment.


--E&P Staff


http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=90&u=/ep/20040802/en_bpiep/illinoispaperhitsmichaelmooreforcopyrightinfringement&printer=1

[David Mauldin]

Is this a "Smoking Gun"??  Dave I can remember reading the same headlines and articles in the L.A. Times. It doesn't prove Moore was trying to mislead someone, his point is that there was a controvery as to who received the most votes.   Honestly,  I have been reading all I can that would support what you guys are saying about Moore.  All I have found so far amount to the same critisicms people find in an e. e. cummings poem.  "He didn't use the proper rules of grammar and  punctuation!!!!  The author of "Uncle Toms Cabin"  received the same kind of critisicms"  so did the author of "Black Like Me"by John Howard Griffen. Yet history has proven these individuals as true evaluators of their society.  I believe that history will prove Moore also.

[M2]

Is this a "Smoking Gun"??  Dave I can remember reading the same headlines and articles in the L.A. Times. It doesn't prove Moore was trying to mislead someone, his point is that there was a controvery as to who received the most votes.   Honestly,  I have been reading all I can that would support what you guys are saying about Moore.  All I have found so far amount to the same critisicms people find in an e. e. cummings poem.  "He didn't use the proper rules of grammar and  punctuation!!!!  The author of "Uncle Toms Cabin"  received the same kind of critisicms"  so did the author of "Black Like Me"by John Howard Griffen. Yet history has proven these individuals as true evaluators of their society.  I believe that history will prove Moore also.

I felt the same way about George Geftakys as you do about Moore.  So often I gave him (GG) the benefit of the doubt; made excuses for him, and gave of my time and resources and money to support the guy and his ministry.  And he turned out to be a fraud.
The evidence against Moore is evident.  A certain type of 'prejudice' may be hindering your seeing it even as 'prejudice' clouded the correct evaluation of the 2 authors you mentioned.  I am prejudiced again automatice FORD Escorts and Mazda automatics as well, after a bad experience with one.  I do not like Ford Taurus' either because they have a peculiar rust problem...

Marcia

[outdeep]

No, this article is not the smoking gun.  It is just demonstrates the typical techniques Moore uses in order to persuade and stir up the emotionally inclined to his point of view.  In case you missed it, he created a prop - a fake newspaper story - to be the factual basis of his point that Gore had won the election.  If this was true, why couldn't he find a real newspaper story?  I understand his premise - that Bush stole the election from under Gore - but if he can't substantiate it, isn't is just ungrounded opinion?  You and I can share our opinions all we want, but it's not a documentary if you make up stuff to make your point.

For example, his main thesis in Roger and Me was to show how the GM layoffs devastated Mr. Moore's hometown of Flint, MI and the lame "corporate" responses to the problem by building a theme park, sending Robert Shuller there for comfort, sending Reagan there, etc.

The film met with high acclaim until a respected film critic interviewed Mr. Moore and revealed:
1.  Mr. Moore didn't actually grow up in blue- collar Flint as he claimed, but in a white suburban neighborhood of Davidson.
2.  The lame responses Mr. Moore cites actually happened before the layoffs, not after - the true timeline kind of destroyed the main premise of the film.
3.  When confronted with this inaccuracy, Mr. Moore simply accused his critics of being paid off by GM instead of taking the lesson to heart and doing better next time.

In Bowling for Columbine, Mr. Moore went out of his way to show that the NRA is heartless in that right after the Columbine shooting, the NRA rushed in to have a rally in spite of tearful pleas for them not to come.  There, Charleston Heston made a passionate speech where he raised a rifle and said, "they will only remove this rifle from my cold, dead hands!"

It turns out that the NRA meeting that took place did not take place in Columbine, but Denver.  The NRA was sensitive to the situation and scaled back their meeting to only the required business portion that were required by law.  Charleston Heston did not make a speech, let alone the "my cold dead hands" speech.  That speech was made several months later in Charlotte, NC where Mr. Heston was giving a brief word of appreciation to those who had just given him an authentic civil war musket.  But, Mr. Moore's crafty editing arranged facts to support a premise that simply was not true.

You see, in real journalism, the documenter will find representatives of both sides of the issue and, to the best of his ability, attempt to accurately represent the heart of their argument.  He might order the conversations to make their point shine brighter (as 60 minutes and NPR does), but they at least acknowledge that there are other views and represent them honestly.  

Moore, on the other hand will shoot a scene from who knows well and tell us that it is representative of pre-war Iraq and that people were happy, flying kites before the bombing.  There are no other views of mass graves and defiance towards weapon inspectors in Moore's world.  He will film a scene interviewing Charleston Heston that makes Mr. Heston look like a jerk, but the expert cinematologies breaking down the film can see that it would have been impossible to film such a scene sequentially.  Instead, the camera had to be stopped, moved, and refilmed out of order so that Mr. Moore presents to you a scene that could not ever have happened without expert editing creating the desired effect and illusion.

When Mr. Moore is confronted with inaccuracies, he typically does not address the concerns, but labels his critics as "whacko atackos".  

This is why conservatives and thinking liberals see his films as propaganda, not documentaries.  It is used primarily to energize the young and impressionable among the liberal voting base.

I am intrigued with Moore because he is so much like George.  He orders facts into his alternative context, appeals to fears and emotions, sells an image of himself that is different than who he really is, writes off any criticism by labeling his accusers, builds his base among the young and impressionable and gets rich in the process (Mr. "voice of the common guy" lives in Manhattan and has a summer home in Michigan).

Maybe everything that Mr. Moore says about Bush is true.  Maybe he has some keen insight just like George had that causes him to understand things that no one else sees.  But if it were true, you would think that someone could produce a credible piece of journalism that demonstrates this.

I believe Mr. Moore will eventually come to a sad end just like George.  I think we should pray for him.  He may go down in history as the man who helped extract George W. Bush from office.  But, I think that epitaph will pale in comparison to the one that says, "I walked in integrity and I lost."

[David Mauldin]

All right Dave I admit your points are well thought out and deserve my investigation.  Yet I am apprehensive.  Why because time demands me elswhere.  (Does your wife get irritatted at you for spending to much time on the web?)  The other is even if as you say that Moore is misleading with his facts the basic story he is telling is true!

            1.  General Motors moved their billion dollar industries across the border in order to avoid paying their labor force decent wages and benefits.  The people who built this company with their blood sweat and tears were left with nothing! No future! Although words were said to the contrary Moore showed that the head of G.M. Roger Smith could care less about all the problems brought upon working class citizens in America.

            2. Two High School losers murder classmates and a teacher because....?  The country has not been able to adequately answer this question.  Niether does Moore, BUT he does ask questions such as Why are Americans in perportion to other nations,  so violent???  The yearly murder rate in Tokyo Japan is equal to one day in Los angeles!!!  Why??  Yes I agree he did wrong to Charlton Heston.  But this didn't obliterate the fact that his movie was a very real eye opening learning medium for me.


            3.  The United States President declared war on a country upon the premise that they were a "real and present danger". Many people were left asking the questions yet the majority of Americans said,"Support the troops"  most were thinking/hopeing "Our government must know what it is doing!"  Today the overwhelming evidence is showing that Bush was "Misinformed" The movie just brings this out plain and simple.  If Moore has bad motives then good pray for him.  But what I can clearly see is the movie shows the truth. If history does show that Moore is a low life muckraker then he deserves the neglect he will get from the public.  but as for now he is the recipiant of an Oscar, Caanes film festival best movie" award and no doubt will be up for another one again

[Oscar]

           1.  General Motors moved their billion dollar industries across the border in order to avoid paying their labor force decent wages and benefits.  The people who built this company with their blood sweat and tears were left with nothing! No future! Although words were said to the contrary Moore showed that the head of G.M. Roger Smith could care less about all the problems brought upon working class citizens in America.

David M.

Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Mazda and other Japanese companies outsource much of their production to South Korea, Taiwan and other SE Asian countries because of the high wages they must pay in Japan proper.   Then they export their products to us.

Would you pay twice as much for a Chevrolet as you would for a Toyota?  That's what failure to compete would mean for GM.  Since most of the people in the USA would not pay such a price, GM would go under.

Result?  No jobs for Mexicans or for Americans.   Why is this better?

The Left seems to think that businesses can operate in violation of economics.

We have tried that.  How many people work for Studebaker, Packard, Hudson, Willys, Kaiser or American Moters, (Nash)?  Seems to me that the grand total comes to about zero.  

You guys need to find a world where your ideas will actually work.  

Thomas Maddux