Head Coverings?

[4Him]

...
You need to explain why the covering was universally practiced in the Christian world until perhaps 40-50 years ago.

But John,

This is the modern age.  We know more now.   We have superior knowledge...    

[4Him]

...
You need to explain why the covering was universally practiced in the Christian world until perhaps 40-50 years ago.

But John,

This is the modern age.  We know more now.   We have superior knowledge...    

[Railrider]

You might notice that after being in a place where I was told what to believe and never to think and question what I was being told that I would now want to do so...whatever conclusion I may come to now on this subject is no reason for you to ridicule me (have I done so to anyone here?)..In fact, I am more adverse to seeing your point of view.

The early church also thought that wearing makeup was a carnal sin and that earrings were the 'badge of the devil'.
_____________________________________________________________________________

It seems to me that this thread has gone to pot. Maybe it already was pot but anyways I will not be posting in it anymore, and I'm sorry if I have offended anyone, so if I'm wrong, Lord please convict me!

[Mrs. Arthur]

There is a really good article found about this topic at:
www.bible.org -->  
In the left hand column about 1/2 way down the page is 'Search Studies Area."  
Click this and then at the next page type in 'Head Coverings.'  
The search will provide a list of articles.  The one I am referring to is article #5 entitled "What is the Head Covering in 1 Cor 11:2-16 and Does it Apply to Us Today?"

[BenJapheth]

John, John, John...easy Mister.  

I can see what Nate is saying.  In any relationship there is deference to the other.  I think Nate was using "submission" in a more relational sense rather than a strict Ephesians 5 context.  

Also, Nate probably knows a lot about what makes a happy marriage grow.  He's the son of a very strong help-mate/Mom to his father.  I know Wayne listens to his helper/Patty...And, he's wise to do so.  They've got a great marriage, I'm a witness to that.  

So, Nate's got an opinion, he's entitled to it, and even qualified to give it.

All the best, Chuck

Thanks mom and dad!
 
  I love you guys!
  And because I have to have the last word...I'll just raise the question of how we know whether or not to take things literally. Sure, loving relationships grow in the context of submission and love. But happy relationships and equally happy marriages grow in the context of non-submission all the time. I frequently submit to my girlfriend. She sometimes does not submit to me. We have a loving relationship. And amybe you say, oh you're young and in love and you dont know. But I honestly believe some of you have the idea that a happy and successful marriage cannot happen without submission.
 
                                                      peace,
                                                           Nate

Why should your girlfriend submit to you?

What in the world do you know about how happy marriages grow?

When you say "some of you have the idea that a successful marriage cannot happen without submission," I assume you are including God as one of us, right?

[psalm51]

Gentleman,
Could we take these posts about our marriage to a private venue? Thanks.
a sweetheart?

[BenJapheth]

Pat, my opinion about John and Nate going at it?   Well, I see John's point about my not "giving Nate his opinions"....However, I've said it before to John  - "What's the purpose in jumping on people?"  I see being harsh as a back step.  Doesn't accomplish anything...All you do is cause a sigh and a roll of the eyes.  It's all about fishing for men and being winsome.

Our intereactions have got to edify, to teach, to build-up, to enlighten, to lead or to encourage.  The bible says "with gentleness correcting."

There's a time YES! when we rebuke with strength and vigor...However, I hardly believe Nate has qualified in this instance to be assailed.  Bullying is an unwelcome thing.  I think John's points are relevant, but they lost so much in the delivery.  It's truth and truth served in love.

To the degree that Nate's ideas are wrong or immature - and who doesn't have some stupid ideas? I certainly do -  Every person appreciates being treated with dignity, not like they're a two-bit imbecilic idiot.

A spoon-full of sugar makes the medicine go down...."A gentle tongue breaks the bone."

Nate, if you want to be on this board you're going to have to deal with the big dogs, and they aren't all friendly.

Your Uncle Chuck

[BenJapheth]

Pat, if you're speaking about John and Brian and their tussle...Wow!  that's one dog's ears I don't want to even think about touching.  

I think both sides have a lot of bad will toward the other...

Guys, I encourage everyone to deal with this over the phone, off-line.

"Love believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things...Love never fails."

Hoping for more goodwill, Chuck

[psalm51]

[quote author=:: Chuck Vanasse :: link=board=12;threadid=110;start=0#6523 date=104476421
Our intereactions have got to edify, to teach, to build-up, to enlighten, to lead or to encourage.  The bible says "with gentleness correcting."

There's a time YES! when we rebuke with strength and vigor... Bullying is an unwelcome thing.  I think John's points are relevant, but they lost so much in the delivery.  It's truth and truth served in love.
-  Every person appreciates being treated with dignity, not like they're a two-bit imbecilic idiot.

A spoon-full of sugar makes the medicine go down...."A gentle tongue breaks the bone."

Chuck,
I totally agree. John just does not get the part about dignity, love, a gentle tongue, etc. and he'll quote you verses to prove it. He has made that obvious on and off this board.
Pat

[psalm51]

WHOA, what happened to my post?

[Nate Dogg]

Chuck,

  Thanks for the good word. I have to concur with you that everything on this website must be done in a spirit of respect and exchange of opinion. though my theological opinions differ widely from yours (and John's) I love you and John as my brothers, and you as my uncle. Agreeing to disagree on these issues is part of breaking away from assembly groupthink, which says we cannot have fellowship unless we are all in line theologically.
 Oh, and I have referred to the Bible as much as possible John, (read my post on slavery and Christianity). I'm sorry if I havn't used it enough. I am on a journey just like you and Chuck and the rest of us on this website. Jesus loves you John, and so do I, even if I don't always agree with you.
 
                                 in love and humility,
                                                  Nate

[Mrs. Arthur]

Bob - I was reading the posts a few pages back and I just have to tell you that you are really encouraging!  For only being out of the group for 4 weeks, you're hitting a lot of points right on the head (no pun intended).

I was only in the group for 4-5 months back in 2000 (in SLO) and to hear such things from someone who has been in the group for much longer really makes me smile.  

Keep seeking Him (It sure seems you are!)

[BenJapheth]

Nate PM me sometime and tell me where we differ...Maybe, I have something to learn or perhaps both of us do.  My views are constantly going through cycles of upgrade.  

Take care, Chuck

Chuck,

  Thanks for the good word. I have to concur with you that everything on this website must be done in a spirit of respect and exchange of opinion. though my theological opinions differ widely from yours (and John's) I love you and John as my brothers, and you as my uncle. Agreeing to disagree on these issues is part of breaking away from assembly groupthink, which says we cannot have fellowship unless we are all in line theologically.
 Oh, and I have referred to the Bible as much as possible John, (read my post on slavery and Christianity). I'm sorry if I havn't used it enough. I am on a journey just like you and Chuck and the rest of us on this website. Jesus loves you John, and so do I, even if I don't always agree with you.
 
                                 in love and humility,
                                                  Nate

[BenJapheth]

Nate and I have gone to PMs...But, here's a couple things for you Mr. Knucklehead.  

C'mon Chuck...there is nothing substantial you can learn from Nate

I can learn something "substantial" from anyone - Even from you Mr. Knucklehead.  Do you realize Mr. Knucklehead that your words above just violated about half the New Testament.  You may know the bible, but from what I can see you don't KNOW the bible.

Give me some hope for this young fellow...

Hey, if there's hope for me there is hope for anyone!  The fact that you have little to no hope for Nate violates another half of the New Testament.  And, if you have no hope for Nate - Then how is that I could give you hope for him?  Putting me in God's place that's idolatry, isn't it?  Lot's of non-biblical stuff here, Mr. Knucklehead.

Hey, Love believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things...Love never fails.

I see a young fellow with no confidence in the scriptures. He's been wading through a bunch of crap from Christians all his life. And you know more of whats behind his writings.

You know my Mom used to wash my mouth out with soap for saying or writing "crap"...which I did once by tracing the word onto our old '65 Dodge Polara. You know Jesus says it's not what goes into a man which defiles him, but what comes out of him.

Nate's not going to gain confidence in the scriptures by being belittled...You can't make a person have confidence in the bible by brow-beating.  It's a God thing, a prayer thing. He needs loving admonishment, and an example.  I've learned from one of my own sons - you can't put in what God left out - like a high regard for the scriptures - that's a grace thing.  Encouragement goes a lot farther than threats and bitterness.

But I hope when you PM Chuck he can help you with some solid takes on the Bible because I don't see that you have any.

Man, that's a big slam!  Nate has "some excellent takes"...I like his view of God's bias for the poor, the forgotten, the lonely, the weak ( 'takes'...that's a John Malone expression - bible interpretation as 'takes'...Mr. Knuckehead are you John Malone? Your email is bgates@malone.net ...hmmmm?  Be careful from the fountain that you're sipping from, my friend.  Good Bible and Good Christian don't necessarily go together, ever heard of J.N. Darby?)

Chuck if you can't do this get some help from your father-in-law.

Hey, I'm always up for help!  I need it and I'm not ashamed to admit it, either.  Not only is God not done with me yet - He's just getting started.

Blessings To You! ....uh.....you Mr. Knucklehead

[psalm51]

Nate and I have gone to PMs...But, here's a couple things for you Mr. Knucklehead.  

[ ( 'takes'...that's a John Malone expression - bible interpretation as 'takes'...Mr. Knuckehead are you John Malone? Your email is bgates@malone.net ...hmmmm?  Be careful from the fountain that you're sipping from, my friend.  Good Bible and Good Christian don't necessarily go together, ever heard of J.N. Darby?)
quote]

Chuck,
Perceptive of you. Bill Gillespie aka Mr. Knucklehead is a colleague of John's - either at church, at work, or both. They sound the same, don't they? Scary.  I think C. Schollmeyer is associated with them also, but maybe not.
Pat