AssemblyBoard

Dear BB Visitors and Posters,

I have been decieved.  By this website.  (Sorry, Brent, knew you wouldn't like that.)

This is not to say that George has not sinned badly and needed to be removed, but I refuse to think that these men that have stood as elders and leading brothers as terrible, indifferent individuals.  

It is simply amazing how a family affair can almost utterly devestate every assembly involved.  Everyone is questioned.  No one is trusted.  "How much did you know?"  "Where were you on the night of the 23rd?"  "What are you hiding?"

This is making me sick.  This website has been looking for scapegoats for about four months and they have decieved everyone viewing into believing that all our leaders are evil.  

Just think about it.  This is like calling the bystander to a fight, as guilty as the ones throwing the punches.  Yes, no doubt they could have done something, but it is mostly up to the fighters to settle the problem, not blame the bystanders.  But who is the bystander and who is not?  Who is required to "repent"?  Who is required to be shunned and embarrassed?  Who has the Geftakys "cooties" and who does not?  Is it just the leaders?  Just the family?  Just those that shook GG's hand?  Just those that sat under ministry?  Just those that grew up in the assembly?  Who?

Let's all make lists.  Everyone that has ever wronged us or given us a "bad" look(at least that's how we interpret it)  is going on the evil list.  "Uh-oh, that evil person did another evil act.  Put another checkmark by their name and remember to never trust them again.  Make a little 'Note to Self.' "  This has gotten entirely out of control.

We have made fools of ourselves by doing this.  These "evil" brothers who have been serving in a "cult" for ten, twenty, thirty some-odd years, are blasted time and time again.  

It's amazing how everyone can constantly look only at the times they were wronged.  Wow, come to think of it, these brothers who you constantly blast have served you for dozens of years.  They have poured their blood and sweat into this work, choosing to serve the Lord and all of you, and so quickly it is dismissed.  They are labeled as evil, because of a website.  There is no thankfulness here.  No honoring of these men who have done so much.  They have stayed up long nights to give you a word in season.  They have called you on the phone.  They have gone out to you in your time of troubles.  They have been willing to love you.
I choose not to go this sad way.  Remember, these men did not have to do this.  They could have gone to seminary, or done a million other things than to prepare ministry for individuals who would one day turn their backs on them.  They did this VOLUNTARILY.  But no, they did something that I did not like, so they deserve the noose.  Think about it.  

George has really preached some good messages that have been inspired and have spoken to your heart.  All glory to God for speaking through this man.  This goes the same for the others.  

But let's all open our closets, and show off our skeletons.  Everytime we are wronged, we write a mental note.  And now that this website has been created, we have a way to let it all out.  Let it all HANG out.  Does it make you feel any happier?  Or are you still as sad as ever?

I also think that mostly everything on this website is overdone.  The way many of you wail about the times you were wronged, its like your arm has been cut off and shoved into your spleen.  "But you don't know what I have gone through!  Because of the assembly, I will be emotionally scarred forever!"  I don't know what you've gone through.  But do you know pain?  Or are you crying "Wolf"?  In no way do I disrespect those have been abused.  But the word "abused" is overused.  Who defines it?

To all you folks on this website:
Do you know what you want?  Do you really understand what you hope to get out of this escapade?  Do you want a change of scenery?  Fine.  Go to another church.  No one's stopping you.  Do you want everyone to step down and cover themselves in sackcloth and ashes and pray for forgiveness?  Fine.  You got it.  Will it some how satisfy you?  Do you want every assembly to be blown to fine powder?  Fine.  Will that further your walk with the Lord?

I am sick of everyone blaming everything on the assembly.  
"My wife left me.  Blame the assembly."  "I lost my faith.  Blame the assembly."  "My dog died.  Blame the assembly."  "I lost my job.  Blame the assembly."  "I fell into sin.  Blame the assembly."  

C'mon folks.  It's getting ridiculous.  You're looking for a scapegoat.  But let me tell you a secret.  When you stand before the throne, you will stand alone.  Just you, all by your lonesome, before the Creator of the Universe.  You can't hide behind George or anyone else that wronged you.  Everything is naked and open before Him that judges righteously.

I am sorry that this message is coming so late.  I should have shared this a month and a half ago.  I probably would have more negative attitude points than I have now.

I have noticed that pretty much everyone here is an innocent victim.  I am choosing not to be one.  You should, too.

Take a look inside, folks.  

A Very Sickened Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson        

Luke---

I appreciate your post---you put a lot of thought into
it for sure. I've read several of your posts and you can
be a very humorous guy. I'm sure you have a big heart.

I just wanted to point out that the majority of the people
posting in here are not pointing at all of the people in the Assembly and calling them evil. We all know there are many dear people there with very sincere hearts.

True--sometimes the posts can become almost venomous towards some of the former leaders. Many people have indeed been hurt by some of these people--some more than others. These men served directly under Brother George, and enabled him to do what he did. Until the GEFTAKYSASSEMBLY.COM was created everyone of these leaders felt George could do no wrong. Without a website like that none of this would have come to light and George would still be doing what he had done all along.

People become angry I think because some of these leaders have taken everything lightly, even attempting to return to teaching a short time after stepping down. Was it a real repentance, or just a "show" put on to appease the one's pointing the fingers? That is the question.

But I see your point also Luke in that you cannot say that "everything" these men has done has been evil. It's unfair to label them that way. The problem is that some of these men are not taking to heart what has happened and have actually said "I didn't know any of this was going on" like Tim Geftakys has done.

If the GeftakysAssembly Website had not been created, exposing George, you can be sure a big attempt would have been made to cover-up or sweep under the carpet the things that came to light. But Luke, I don't think anyone is going to point the finger at you and say "you are an evil man" for the points you have made.

I'm sure you hold a deep respect for these men, seeing they taught and ministered to you. I can truly understand that. But you need to see the seriousness of what has happened in the Assembly. You need to realize that an awful lot of people were put through things they never should have suffered because of some of these leaders.
That's where a lot of the pain and anger is coming from.

Luke---I hope you continue to post. I've enjoyed your humor and your point of view. I for one am glad this BB is here because I've learned a lot from it, and that knowledge has come from all directions.  God bless you.

--Joe

Luke:

Here is who is evil...George Geftakys, Tim Geftakys, and David Geftakys are flat out evil. Also, anyone who was in a posisiton of leadership who new about the crimes and misdoings being committed by these three men could also be categorized as evil.  As far as the other leading brothers who were simply following orders that they perceived were from God - they are not evil, they were simply duped.

The work created by Saddaam and his sons...oops I mean George and his sons was flat out a fraud.  It was about power and money.  Everything done was for their own personal benefit.  They have used God as a means of income and power, and will be dealt with accordingly.

As far as being wronged, people would not be so upset if they would have been able to confront those who had done wrong to them.  As a result of the code of silence and not being able to confront these men
there is a lot of built up anger.  People gave their lives to this ministry...This is a huge deal.  These men have been exposed and are now facing the music.

This ministry sucked people in physically and emotionally.  Serious damage has been done and much pain has been inflicted.  

I am not as you call an "innocent victim".  I am not blaming the assembly for any problems.  I have moved on.  From my end, I liken people who have been a victim of the teachings and ways of the  assembly to those who have been molested.  As ones who have been violated, we can either sit back and say nothing or go on the offensive.  I choose the latter.

Again, from my end, I never had any choice in the matter.  I was in the assembly from the time I was two years old, and the warped thinking of the place had a huge negative impact on my life.  I have suffered psychologically as a result, but I have dealt with it and moved on.  My intent is that no one, particularly innocent youth should ever have to fall victim to these mens teaching again.

Luke - here is who led the ministry you are defending:

George - an adulterer and a thief.

David -  a wife beater and a fake

Tim - a thief, a fake, a man who defines arrogance, and a snake.

 

Dear Luke:
   Wow!  I'm glad you got that off your chest.
   I think you have done the same thing in your post that you accuse  those who post here of doing; lumping everyone together into the same category.  Certainly no one has lumped every Assembly leader in with the same evil that GG has done.
    You also suggest that GG's problems were "just one family's problem" out of many very good folks that populated the Assemblies.  GG started the Assemblies and controlled each and every one of them.  GG appointed the leaders and controlled them via his unbiblical system of the Workers.
     We will all need much mercy at the throne of judgment.  We all sin, make errors in judgment, allow our emotions to sway us, see through a glass darkly, and misunderstand others motives.  We should always be humble in our judgment with others and "search our hearts", but we must also stand for what we believe to be Christ's mind in the situation.
    Long years before GG was exposed there were those who had problems with the Assemblies of GG.  I left 12 years ago and tried to entreat my brethren re. what I saw as problems.  For my long hours of serving the Assemblies (20 years  and a leading Bro.) I was called, "Satanic, divisive, railer, and a liar."  I was also shunned by those who I had called my dear friends.
    Many of these dear people were deceived and as such I do not group them in with those who were leading.  Recently I have talked with some of them and they have apologized to me, but some have not.  I have not heard one word from any of the leaders.
    It seems incredible to me that anyone who looks at the simple facts of how the Assembly has operated can not say that it was an evil system; this is not to say that all in the system were the designers and operators of the system.  In order for it to work you must have dupes.
    You see just such a system in the Pharisees.  They had great zeal, but not according to knowledge; they were locked in a system that actually harmed those that followed their teaching and practices.  Jesus and Paul hammered away at this system and opposed it strongly, even to the point where Paul "attacked" Peter for his bad example of supporting that system.
    The good news is that Peter was entreated.  The bad news is GG has not acknowledged, nor repented even of his gross open sins!  To entreat present day Assembly leaders to consider that the system started by an unrepetant evil man may have some problems worth looking at is not out of line here.  Books, articles, letters, and reams of postings have sought to explain where the problems are.
   To ignore the facts available is to shield oneself from a means of great deliverance and blessing.  Much more could be said and I too would like you to continue to post your concerns.              God Bless,  Mark

Mark C...You were very diplomatic and your point is well said.  I for one, am not very diplomatic.  I wish they would lock George and his two sons in a room with Saddaam and his two sons and test one of Sadaam's dirty boms on the six of them.  That way all six of these evil people could never harm again.

Dear Mr. Sperling,

Thank you for your wisdom.  You've got a lot of that up your sleeve so thanks for sharing that with me.   ;D  Just one thing I had a problem with:

"People become angry I think because some of these leaders have taken everything lightly, even attempting to return to teaching a short time after stepping down. Was it a real repentance, or just a "show" put on to appease the one's pointing the fingers? That is the question."

Ok, who is required to repent and for what?  For knowing about this abuse thing?  For being a robot for George?  What?  Thanks again for writing.

Dear Mark,

I agree with you.  I have made some unnecessary blanket statements in my post and for that I apologize.  I respect you very much and would like to here from you again.

Dear Bluejay,

Must you so easily prove my point?   ;D

Thanks again.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

Please note:

     i was there when the Fullerton assembly began.

     i was involved in the workers' meetings and the LBs.

     i didn't leave the assembly until late in 1980.

     i was fully convinced at that time that the assembly was God's work, George was God's servant, and that any and all discrepancies between the assembly and me were my fault for lacking vision and faith.

     Today, people are saying that George, Betty, David and Tim are evil.  That may be true-- i have been so far removed for such a long time that i am unfamiliar with most of the present issues.  
     That same long period of time has allowed me to reflect on my own assembly experiences, and realize some of the things that had gone wrong before i left.  ...and quite a bit had gone wrong by 1980.

     But the point i want to make here is that when the assembly began, the Geftakys' were NOT evil people.  Proud, egotistical, arrogant, aggressive, selfish-- George and Betty were probably all of these and more, but not evil.  ...yet.  The boys were still kids, but they were learning, and they were being groomed.
     In the assembly's beginning, a saving gospel was being preached.  There was a clear call to worship the Lord, and a desire to study his word, to fellowship, and to witness.  There was a lot of love.  But i can't dredge up a memory of evil.
     If the Geftakys' ARE evil, they BECAME evil over a long and gradual decline of spirituality.  Before they were the deceivers saints know them as today, the Geftakys family became the deceived.

     i remember George speaking after worship one Sunday morning.  The sisters always sang in beautiful multi-part harmony, and that morning he told us that the beauty of their singing drew away attention from the beauty of the Lord.  He shared this gently and kindly, trying to present it in a positive light.  But the sisters (except for those who were tone deaf), and some of the brothers, too, were crushed.  We all tried to put a brave face to it, and see it as the Lord's will, taught to us by the Lord's servant.
     ...and as subtly as that, the Geftakys' focus was shifting to being more controlling, and their influence had begun to very gradually ensnare and enslave us.
.............................................................

     All of us who took part in assembly leadership or the "work" must share in some measure the responsibility of what came to pass.  But that only labels us as weak and in error.  Those who came to recognize their error and stayed with it for reasons of their own must wrestle with the label of "evil."

     The important thing to remember is that judgment for evil is an issue between each individual and God.  If we see a brother in sin, leading others into sin, we must challenge the leader to repent, and the followers to beware and turn away.  Ideally, all will see the light and return to the Lord.
     But what if they don't respond?  Or what if the challenger is mistaken?  We are not all going to see the same thing in the same way at the same time-- not in this lifetime.
     We must walk as closely with the Lord as we can, obeying him to the best of our ability, and TRUSTING HIM to take care of all the details that are beyond our control (and beyond our understanding).
..............................................................

     Luke, you must have called off sick the times i got myself in trouble here by telling people they were being too severe or by saying i had benefitted by G's & B's ministries.
     You must be a pretty decent guy, or you wouldn't have hung around here all this time.  My guess is that your tirade can be attributed to having had a bad day, because you have responded graciously to the comments of those who answered you.
     There is a distinct balance to the postings of this BB, and you are an integral part of it, whether your coin lands heads-up or tails-up.  Keep on posting...

al

Luke---

Thanks for your response. What I was saying is that these leaders "stepped down" from a position of leadership in an admission that they were partly responsible for what had been going on. For any of them to try to take back a position of leadership so quickly shows an insincere attitude towards having "stepped down". At least that was my take on it. If I'm wrong someone please correct me.

Thanks again for your post.  --Joe  :)

And don't forget David.


What about the Satanic Bible and Tibetan Book of the Dead that George owned?  As well as the statue of Buddha in his living room, and the money laundering and immorality, etc. ?  Did you see the "Assembly History" by the Irons on the www.geftakysassembly.com website?  What are your thoughts on that, Al?

Dear Bluejay, (and Luke)
  I don't think diplomacy is what I'm trying to achieve in my posts, nor debate, but a dialogue (Wow! 3 D's-- sounds like a good 3 point message ;D).
 Maybe I can kind of understand how Luke feels when people lump very good people, like his Dad, in with the likes of the Geftakys's.  There are very many good, honest, moral, diligent, etc. folks who have given their lives in what they thought was service to Christ. (Who am I to say they are insincere?)
  I can give a testimony of my own experience.  I felt from the very beginning something was wrong in the Assembly, but believed that it was just a matter of balance.  When I sought to voice concerns I was told things like, "Mark, wait on God and he will change the leadership."  And so, I waited, and prayed, and waited some more (20 years).
   I was always known as the guy who preached the grace of God.  I felt the need to balance what I thought was a preoccupation with holiness preaching.  I believed GG's false holiness message at the time, but knew in my own life, as well as many around me that we were not performing up to snuff.  I would watch the faces of the Saints light up as I gave them hope, only to watch them fall again as the next Bro. got up and preached GG's false gospel.
   The point is, there are many leaders who opted out of the inner circle of GG, and the politics surrounding it, and honestly tried to do what was right for God's people.  When the widow put her last mite into the treasury box Jesus did not remark that by her offering she was supporting an evil religious system that abandoned God.  She offered it as unto the Lord and God accepted and valued it as of great worth.
  God understands our ingnorance, weakness, and yes even our willingness to ignore the obvious; we're very fallen humans.  God has been very patient and merciful to Assembly folks as he tried to entreat them (As He was with me for many long years in this group).
  For those leaders who now still choose to not take a time of deep evaluation and to step down and away from any kind of position of teaching and leadership is for them to miss a great opportunity to really serve Christ.  Christ's testimony is not lost by being humble and entreatable, it is gained!  The enemy's cause is not advanced one wit when we face the facts honestly, acknowledge our mistakes, turn from them, and seek to be instructed; there is nothing to fear here!  Faithfullness to God is not loyalty to a man and a ministry that has been proven corrupt, but honesty and clarity before Him with whom we have to do!
                           God bless,  Mark
   
 

Arthur, and all,

     i am not by any means defending any of the Geftakys', either as they are today, nor as they were in the 1970s.  But it is a mistake and over-simplification to label them as "evil" from eternity unto eternity.  They BECAME corrupted over a period of time, as Satan preyed upon their weaknesses.  Any of us who thinks that our personal spirituality is above such a fate is dangerously wrong!  It is only the grace of God that keeps our human frailty from opening the door to darkness.  It is not the strength of our convictions that protects us, but the strength and love of HIM WHO CONVICTS US!

     i don't recall a buddha in GG's living room, but what of it?  An idol only has power over one who idolizes it.  To George, and the rest of the LBs & workers, such an object was only an artifact, reminiscent of the fascinating nature of mankind.  He had many such oddments scattered about the premises.  They were curiosities and conversation starters.  Having attended seminars, prayer meetings, etc. in that house many times, i am unaware of any of GG's possessions ever having caused anyone to stumble.

     As for the books, George confided in the early LBs that there was an occult history to his family (i'm not sure which side), which he had renounced after he accepted Christ.  The books were of interest to him, but there was no evidence that he held them in any other regard at that time.  
     One Sunday evening, the LBs were met in GG's den, for discussion and prayer.
     GG asked us, " If a brother owned a book which contained spells for conjuring demons, what should he do with it?"
     Several of us instantly said, "Burn it!"
     He then asked if we thought such a book, being extremely rare and sought after, could have any redeeming value, such as to be sold for a high price to raise money for the Lord's work.
     Again we said, "Burn it."
     He stood and left the room, returning a few moments later with a nondescript darkbound book, which he opened and laid face down on the flaming logs in the fireplace.  We supposed at the time that he was simply testing us.  i never saw reason to think otherwise.
     i was never privy to any immorality or abuse of funds.  If such transpired either during or prior to my tenure in Fullerton, no incident ever came to my attention.  If it had, i don't know whether i would have had the wisdom or fortitude to challenge it.  But i was one of those who stood for burning the book.

     i own a buddha or two, and a couple of small hindu and shinto figures.  i also have a copy of the Q'ran, a Union Prayerbook in Hebrew/English and i think there's a Book of Mormon on the bottom of a stack somewhere.  And some religious science literature.  Do you think these have influenced my posts?
     i don't read the books.  i have them for reference, but haven't needed them or got around to looking at them.  i'm not sure exactly where any of the figurines are.  i picked them up for inspiration, and every once in a while, when i stumble onto one of them, i'm reminded how great a debt i owe, and how huge a portion of the world dwells in darkness and in need of prayer.  That's the inspiration i was looking for.

     George used to often tell us, "Your actions speak so loudly, I can't hear a word you're saying."  What has happened to him and his wife and sons has made of those words a self-fulfilling prophecy.  A potentially world altering ministry has been all but totally negated by wilful sin.  There, but for the grace of God, might we all have gone.

al

Dear Mr. Hartman,

I agree with you, I must say.   ;D  Too much use of the word "evil."

Sin has been done.  The guilty party has been removed.  But who is evil?  I guess we all are if this reasoning follows through.  

Dear Everyone Else,

If someone has been a jerk to you, call them a jerk.  Not evil.  If someone has done something wrong to you, address that problem.  But once we start experimenting with certain words in the English language, then our discussions fall apart.  And that is what I am asking all of you to do.

I admit I was a little angry when I wrote what I did.  I was a little harsh, a little mean spirited.  And for that, I apologize.  But above all, I am asking each of you to think.  And if I have said something that you personally agree or disagree with, feel free to write me either by IM or e-mail.  

God Bless.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

Al---

I wanted to mention that I too have several books for
reference only which might be considered evil. I have
studied cults and religions for a while now and have such
books as "The Egyptian book of the dead", "The Book of Mormon", several books written by Jehovah's witnesses,and
several books written by atheists. I even have a book by Aleister Crowley, who was a satanist. I have them because I am interested in learning what these people believe, not because I adhere to any of the teachings they present.

True, what Aleister Crowley writes is "evil", but the book itself is made of paper and is not possessed by evil spirits.
The book isn't going to leap off the shelf and attack someone. So, I don't believe that because George owned a satanist book, or the "Tibetan book of the dead" that he believed in those things. That's really a stretch in my opinion. Many people have buddha's solely as artwork--I don't have a buddha, because whenever I look at one with it's fat belly I get hungry and break my diet. but if I did have one I sure hope no one would call me "evil" for having one.

George indeed has done some "evil" things but I wouldn't base that on the books he had or a statue he might have had in his living room. This is just my opinion I know, and I accept any disagreement that might be made.

--Joe

Ah, interesting take on it.  Based on the evidence, I'm leaning more towards that they are wolves and always have been wolves and never have been sheep, i.e. they've always been wicked and enemies of the flock of God and through the years their true nature was revealed.  


Fascinating? --how 'bout base wickedness of humanity.  I dunno but I still don't think it's OK to be a Christian (and especially a pastor or preacher)  and have a statue of Buddha in your living room!  I don't know any other Christian pastor that would have a statue of a demon that is the cause of enslavement for a large percentage of humanity in heathen darkness.  


Ah, that's how it happened.  George related this story to us during a summer school.  He said he was reading that place in Acts where the sorcerers burned their scrolls.  Interesting.  


If you were ready to say "burn it" back then, what made you change your mind so that you now own the very same kinds of books?  I don't quite understand why you would need to have idols in your home to remind you to pray for the world that dwells in darkness. Would that be the same as me saying I need to go to the bar to remind myself that there are drunks that I need to pray for?  I'm not trying to be fussy, but that doesn't make any sense to me.  


Do you really think that the ministry had potential for good things?  I'm interested to hear your take on that--what went on in the early years that made it seem that way?  After hearing more and more accounts of George's behavior, I'm wondering if there ever was a movement of God.  I'm thinking that maybe in some people's lives there were, because they read the Bible and it broke through the darkness that enshrouded George, but it wasn't because of George.  Was it?

Arthur

it is also a mistake and over-simplification to propose that the george, his sons, and all of those corrupted by them are simply helpless victims of satanic attack. did they have less grace than we do? no. we all make decisions, with our wills, that determine what we become. if you have been doing your homework, you know that george was corrupt long before he started the assemblies, and that the image of righteousness and godliness that george projected was an absolute fraud the entire time. the difference between george and me is what i chose to become. the same is true for you, al, and for all of us. unless you think the grace of God shows favoritism.


i think this is very true. i have a buddha in my living room. it was a gift from the best man at my wedding. he was born and raised in nepal, where buddhism permeates the culture at least as deeply as christianity does here, and with as many different striving strains. he gave it to me as a beautiful cultural ornament, and i value it for the friendship that was displayed by the giving of it. don't live in fear. you can't go wrong by obtaining a more accurate understanding of a culture, religion, or tense political situation. its easy to jump to conclusions and judgements, to fortify yourself safely behind bars of fear, and to react aggresively. its hard to take the time and effort to really understand - but its worth it. its a big step in the direction of freedom.


i hate to say even more things that may be painful to hear, but the fact is, even with george and his sons manipulating at full capacity, his ministry never really became very large or influential. it was an especially painful snap of reality, when i realized that we all suffered so much for so long - and so astonishingly little ever actually came of it. it dosen't stack up very impressively as a church, a movement, an awakening, or a cult. whatever may have been actually valuable in it was only on a personal level, when sincere people invested in one another and found meaningful friendships in the middle of it all. and that is found in any form of community, and was many times squashed or corrupted in george's ministry. there was never anything world-altering about it - all of that was the influence of charismatic personalities on those who wanted to believe in them. i'm sorry. its very sad, but its true.

Dear Brian,

Mr. Hartman is not implying this at all.  He is not saying that the Geftakys family were helpless victims of Satan.  But faced with temptation, George and David gave in, instead of turning away.  To be tempted is not a sin, but to give in to temptation is.  The Devil was very much involved in this.  To say he wasn't would not be right.  

Also, how do you know that George was corrupted?  Yes, I've read all the rumors flying around.  Think about it.  George sins and we start digging around in his past looking for the beginning of his corruption.  The man was tempted and gave in.  That's all their is to it.  And it happens to each and every one of us.

Not to mention his overbearing attitude towards the flock and the poor conducting of his family.  

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

However, I would hope that each an every one of us would not have the underlying being of our life be to follow after a system of corruption.  We fall down, we get up and through the grace of God we move forward.  I may be wrong, but it is difficult for me to believe that GG ever attempted to go before God to deal with his sins against those who followed him.  To me, the appearance is that he just continued on day after day using his corrupted system to propagate his corrupted beliefs and exalt himself.

Greetings Brian, LR, retread, eveyone:

I am with you Brian. I want to be merciful, but it is evil to do what the Geftakys family has done and I am not ashamed or afraid to use this word as I think it is an accurate description. It is very possible for us to choose evil and we are ultimately responsible as far as I can see. The Scriptures tell us that Satan entered into Judas I. They also tell us that it wd. have been better if he had never been born ( no analogy intended w-Geftakys here). It seems to me that Judas was held responsible, and not Satan in the long run.
As far as artifacts and religious objects go I wd. like to give one word of caution:
If an artifact, statue, etc. was used in  pagan religious/magic ceremonies it may  exert a disrupting or polluting influence on a household- i.e. the atmosphere and the people in it. There are manifold examples of this in Catholic And Protestant literature and in the writings of missionaries who brought home interesting artifacts from the mission field. The late Kurt Koch has a lot about this in his books(Kregel Publications), and an Indian friend of mine has some personal experience in this matter. All I am saying is be careful.

Dear Friends :)
  It is very difficult to take GG and the whole Assembly experience apart and examine what GG was actually thinking at what time and place.  Al had certain interactions with GG and he is trying to remember how GG appeared to him at the time.
  It would have been interesting had GG been involved in a reality show where we could have seen all his private activities, and even better yet have him tell us what he was thinking at the time.  There will be a reality show for him, and all of us one day.
  Luke raised the issue that the word "evil" is bandied about much too frequently, on this BB, when really it is more often a personality conflict issue.
   It seems to me, when Christ spoke of evil (this would make an interesting study and I'm not positive I'm correct) He primarily leveled his accusations at the religous leader crowd.  Paul spoke of "false Apostles" whom he called, "Ministers of Satan" , etc.  
  While with the poor unpretentious sinner crowd Jesus seemed to delight in, sharing the Good news of mercy, and these drew near and gladly heard Him.
   This brings me to the conclusion that the word "evil" primarily has to do with the kind of sin that comes from a seared conscience.  The conscience doesn't start this way, it is a process of ignoring the awareness that we are doing wrong; we are in denial! (in other words we're all sinners, that's not the question, but are we honest about it, especially if we claim to be God's servant)
  So Al is right, it is a process, but in a religious leader with no accountability, such a process hastens to a very dangerous point quickly!  In order to insulate himself from facing these issues GG developed a system, an evil system, that belittled, shamed, dominated, etc. those whom he convinced to follow him.
   This evil system rewarded those who were loyal and punished those who questioned.  There were those in the Assembly who climbed the ladder by following the same system of conscience searing GG demonstrated; some more so, and others less so, but it was only one system.  Yes, you could just attend and keep your concerns to yourself, and you would be left alone.  But, dare to challenge the system and you would be labelled and sent out :'(.
   No, it's more than just a personality conflict and I think it is probably one of the greatest evils on earth to be a false Apostle of Christ.  To abuse God's little ones earns the reward that is worse than having a millstone hung around one's neck and to be cast into the sea!
     Much more could be said, but for me it's off to bed.
                              God bless,  Mark

here is the essence of what al said: X happened to george and his sons. X could happen to any of us. this implys that X is not quite so bad as we are making it out to be, and we should perhaps tone it down. what i am saying is that X did not just happen to them, passively, and that X will NEVER just happen to somebody. they made specific, conscious choices, over and over again, for decades. george chose to have sex with his secretaries before he started the assembly, and he chose again to engage in the same behavior after he started the assemblies. he chose, consciously and repeatedly, to commit terrible crimes against people who trusted him. he chose to hold his daughter-in-law in a position of really anguished suffering for many long years, until someone outside the family finally took some steps to set her free, and ultimately to expose him. he chose to give those 'glorious' seminars the entire time he was engaging in this sickening behavior. he knowingly and gladly took millions of dollars from those who believed he was righteous and godly, when HE knew the entire time he was the farthest thing from it. and thats just george, and that is not all the sins he chose to commit. with someone who is capable of committing these kinds of sins, what you eventually find out about is always the tip of the iceburg. am i making my point yet? do i need to go on to david, and the really bad stuff? or the leading brothers who knew the really bad stuff and knowingly chose to cover it up? these are choices these men cannot take back. they can repent (george and his sons have NOT done so) but the results of their choices to commit these horrid sins are etched into the lives of those they inflicted themselves on like deep acid burns. that is what makes their willful sins so horrid. they knowingly trampled on the souls of those who trusted them deeply, then punished those trusting souls if they complained about it. its not that a particular sin came knocking at their door, and in a weak moment they let it slip in. they actively sought out this lifestyle - they FOUGHT for the opportunity to commit gross sin. THATS what i mean by corrupted. this is VERY different from what you and i face every day. we still have a conscience.


you can dig around in my past all you like. you won't find anything remotely close to the horrors some of these men committed. i have never even been tempted to do the sick and cruel things they did. those things simply make my blood run cold.  a person has to be pretty corrupted to even want that lifestyle, then even more corrupted to work actively to set it up and carry it out.

do you really think it is just a massive coincidence that so many people who left the assembly started working actively to put a stop to it?

Dear Brian,
I totally agree with you.  Those that sinned made a concious decision to commit sin.  This is a point that needn't be argued.  But, wow, the way you described George, one might think he was the Head of the Third Reich!   ;)

The thing is, in our natural selves, we are capable of all these things and worse.  In our brutish, sinful nature, we can produce henious acts such as the ones displayed here.
No doubt about it.  That is why we need Christ more than ever.

I agree that because George does not acknowledge his sin, neither does he repent, he is in very dangerous water.  No doubt there will be great judgment in that day, unless he turns from his evil ways.

Remember, in our flesh and sinful nature, we are all evil.  But Christ has saved us from that.  And George must wake up before he falls deeper into sin.  

Also, one last thing, Mr. Tucker.  Your last paragraph sounds like that famous line in the good, old book.

"God, I thank you that I am not like other men."
 ;)
A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

     Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour:  
     Whom resist steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
     But the God of all grace, who has called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that you have suffered a while, make you perfect, establish, strengthen, settle you.
     To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.  Amen.
                                                            I Peter 5:8-11


     In my last post, i did not attempt to establish a doctrinal position.  My goal was to express a point of view and to share the personal experiences and observations that led me to that viewpoint.
     What i expressed in that post may be wrong.  i may have been duped during my entire association with the Geftakys family.  They may have all been living in blatant sin the entire time, and i blinded to it all.  It doesn't matter  what you think of me or my opinions.
     Sometimes the remarks on this BB seem like a political cartoon in which oversized linebackers butt helmet-to-helmet, one being labeled pro- and the other against- whatever the issue of the moment happens to be.
     i am not omniscient.  i don't want or need to win you over to my camp.  i am not going to debate the points of criticism of my words.  i am going to share some heartfelt thoughts and ask you to weigh them prayerfully before jumping to your next conclusion:

     i am not pro-George or anti-George.
     i am not pro-assembly nor anti-assembly.
     i AM pro-Jesus Christ our Lord.  If God be for us, who can be against us?  And if we are for God, we don't need to be against anyone or anything, in terms of identifying ourselves.  We simply stand with our Lord, for who and what he loves and against who and what he hates.  Are you getting this?-- Our identity is CHRISTIANS...  NOT Sin-Haters.  Hating sin is incidental to loving Christ!  No matter how important it ever is to expose sin and topple evil, it must NEVER stand alone-- it must ALWAYS be a product of our love for God!

     Do you want to believe that GG & his clan were predestined to be evildoers from before the foundations of the world?  Go for it...
     But i will ask you to consider again I Peter 5:8, which says that the devil is seeking whom he MAY devour.  Several translations verify that the word is MAY (NOT "can").
     CAN implies the ABILITY to do something, while MAY implies that PERMISSION is required.
     Satan does not have the ability to devour God's people at his discretion, but must seek permission.  Read the book of Job.
     The big difference between Job and us is that Job was looking forward toward, and trusting in, a redemption yet to be accomplished.  But Christ has come, and has redeemed us.  He has walked among us, and we have seen him and beheld his glory.  Christ is in us, and we abide in him.  So now when Satan seeks God's permission to afflict us, he asks it of US.
     The temptations with which we are tempted are common in nature, but it comes to each of us to decide whether we will claim our place in Christ and refuse the temptation with him, or whether we will fail to reckon the death of our old nature, instead responding with its old, dead feelings, and be led into sin.

     It is the NATURE of sin that is common to us all, its appeal to the flesh;  but NOT its specific trappings.  There is no convenient one-size-fits-all human psyche.  So, no matter how cleverly you may think you've worked out your own perceptions of good and evil, it will ill-equip you to assess what may tempt another.  Hence dictums about what paraphernalia it is or is not safe to surround oneself with are of no value to the masses.
     So we must resist Satan steadfastly IN THE FAITH, not by behavioral formulas.  The actions that define us as Christians must be born of our close walk with Jesus Christ, not of conclusions we have drawn concerning what is good and what is bad.  To be sure, there is evil in the world, and there is good, but we must constantly seek him for the revelation of them, and not look for convenient patterns with which we may become familiar, and thus complacent.

God bless us all, and grant us wisdom in humility,
al Hartman

sorry if i come across too harshly sometimes. just imagine me saying everything i say here in a warm, friendly, confident, compassionate way.  ;)


you know, to be totally honest, in my heart-of-hearts, i really don't think i am capable of doing these things. i know its not politically correct to say that, but i really don't think i am.

is it possible to tell if one sin is worse than another? *gasp* honestly, i don't think we need to doubt our consciences all THAT much. i think we are capable of rough estimates. for instance, we could look at the number of lives hurt by each sin, and use the tally as a rough estimate of how destructive the sin was. a personal, private sin would only directly hurt the person committing it, while the sins george and his sons committed affected hundreds of lives deeply. i think that pretending the two are even roughly equivalent is living in denial, and rather dangerous, as it trivializes what these men have actually done and makes it easier to let them off the hook.

oh, and i think its safe to say i am anti-george  :)  i am also anti-rabid-dogs, for the record.

Hi guys

Even though I'm retired, I can still post on the BB...right? ;)

I am also anti-George.  Did you know that there is a character in the Bible called Anti-Christ?  Actually, there are several.  I am anti--antichrist as well.

George is a false teacher, a false brother, an immoral man, and a criminal!  I am definitely anti-george.

Also, I challenge all the self/flesh-theorists out there to tell me where it says in the Bible that we are all capable of doing what George has done.  Certainly we all have the potential to do that and more, but I don't.  When given the opportunity to steal, I haven't done so, etc.

Am I better than other men?  No, I just haven't given myself over to a depraved mind.  I haven't willfully, obstinately rebelled against God.  Because I am better?  No, because no temptation has overtaken me except that which is common to man, including George.  God always gives the way of escape.  

George chose his own way of escape, which the Bible calls wickedness.  Jesus is going to seperate sheep and goats.  He isn't going to say to the sheep, "You guys are every bit as evil as the goats."  On the contrary, he sees a difference.

Please, re-think all this "self is evil" stuff.  

Recommended reading,  "The True Believer," by Eric Hoffer.

Don't Read It Unless You Feel Very Stable In Your Faith

Brent

All,

     Three have faithfully posted since my last post, and said EXACTLY what i had thought i was saying.  Obviously, they are saying it better than i.

     i am Not opined that the self/flesh is evil... only that no GOOD thing dwells in it, and that it is capable of adopting evil.
     i am NOT in fellowship with GG or any of his ilk.
     i am NOT pro-assembly.
     i do NOT believe that the Lord will tell his sheep that they are evil.

     But i DO believe that to say that there is a difference between what depth of depravity and sin we are CAPABLE of and what we have the POTENTIAL to commit is to play a very dangerous game of semantics.

     And i DO believe that if everyone on earth but YOU had been born in, and lived in, complete holy righteousness, and YOU yourself had only committed one "tiny" sin, it would have been enough to bring the Son of God down from heaven to die for your salvation.  (What Christ has done for all, he has done for EACH, for YOU and for me, as individuals!)

     And i DO believe that if you are not capable of sinning as greatly as others have (and do), it is only because God granted you the GRACE to be saved from such a fate by turning away from sin THROUGH FAITH in him, and that said faith is NOT OF YOURSELF, but is THE GIFT OF GOD,    NOT OF (your) WORKS of (self) righteousness, lest you (or any of us) should boast.

     Perhaps you have pegged old al as a senile, sin-infested crackpot, and shoved him into a pigeonhole and given him a label.  And because you already have your mind made up about what he stands for and what he's going to say, you don't have to actually read, and evaluate, and pray about his "rantings."  (Joe Sperling, please expand upon what i'm talking about here).

     i repeat:  it makes no difference what you think of me or my opinions.  But, PLEASE, consider the possibility that you may have submitted to pride (which can lead to arrogance) and be placing yourself, AND THOSE WHO LOOK TO YOU FOR GUIDANCE AND EXAMPLE at grave risk!!!!!

     Say what you will about me...  i love you all and care deeply where you stand with the Lord...

because of him,
al Hartman

P.S.--  i also am anti rabid dog, and tend to be somewhat intolerant of rabid fanatics, too!  (General statement, not directed toward anyone in particular-- if you think otherwise, please take it up with Highest Authority).

Dear Everyone,

I guess everything is now coming out in the wash.  I see now why you can say those things.  Because you would never do such a sin.  Wow.  And all this time I was confused.  I thought we were all sinners saved by grace.  But please regard what I said before.  Brent, you have been quick to call people a lot of things and point out who is arrogant and who is not.

Luke 18:10-11 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,"God, I thank thee , that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican."(or as George Geftakys)

Here's a few verses about where the Bible uses the word "evil":

Matthew 7:11 If you being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

So Jesus calls the multitude evil.  

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Paul says that no matter how hard he tries, he can't stop doing evil.  Only through Christ can he throw off the evil nature.
 
Then he says in verse 24: Oh wretched man that I am!  who shall deliver me from the the body of this death?

Hebrews 10:22  Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of our faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Paul says that we need to be saved from the evilness of our own conscience.

James 3:8 But the tongue can no mane tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.  

Who has an evil tongue?  We all do!  Unless we give God full control of it.

Just a few scriptures to advise against the over-usage of the word evil.  

Unfortunately, we can't all be good Christians with the only repulsive sinners being the Geftakys family.  One last verse.  

I Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth, take heed lest he fall.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson
 

If we were uncapable of sin, no matter how innocent or terrible it was, then the blood of Christ was not needed and we could all get to heaven by going to church and giving to charity.

Actually, Mr. Tucker, what you said is politically correct, not Biblically correct.  

Dear Luke

Your last post is so peppered with false Assembly theology that I really don't have the energy to  point out some of the major points.  However, the way you ended it is somewhat of a key.

I Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth, take heed lest he fall.


At one time, I was sure that I standeth.  I understood Romans 6,7,8, Galatians 2:20, and many other verses.  I knew that God hated the self-life, and that He was only interested in Christ's life.

I fell.  I had no power in my Christian life, but I knew all kinds of things.

When I say, "All you self/flesh theorists need to check your premises,"  I am saying, "Him who think he standeth, take heed lest he fall."

Luke, this is for you.

Before Jesus saved me, I was a slave to sin.  Now, I am a new creation.  I don't practice the things I used to do before I got saved.  I don't fornicate, use drugs, drink to excess, steal, and lots of other stuff.  Why?  Because I am a new creation in Christ.  Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.  I don't want to do those things, for which I was ashamed.

Do I still sin?  Of course!  But the battle is very different now.  I have a testimony now, whereas before, I was in darkness and sin.

Now let's look at George.  He committs adultery, steals, teaches false doctrine, lies, has pride and arrogance, puts people out of the church who don't agree with him, and claims to have no sin, even when faced with multiple witnesses.

He names the name of Christ, but he EMBRACES ANd PRACTICES INIQUITY!!!  Is someone going to tell me that we are all just like George?  If a Christian is no better than a false teacher, than why does the Bible warn us about false teachers, and their inpending judgment?

Luke, there is a huge difference between me and George.  Yes, we are both sinners,  but am not living a lie.  I won't be judged for the things George has done, because I didn't do them.  In fact, I have no fellowship with them, and didn't excuse them.  I won't be judged for telling  lie, or believing George's lies, because I tried to expose them in the light.  I am different, because I am a Christian.  I belong to Christ.

How can I, who have died to sin, live any longer in it?  I can't.  It repulses me.  I don't want to live in sin, and if I discover it in my life, I do what I must to be free of it.  The Holy Spirit convicts me of sin and righteousness.

Your Geftakys theology has taught you that if you don't "go the way of the cross," or "give God complete control," or yield to Christ's life, you will be just like George, probably worse.  This is bogus and is an affront to the atonement of Christ.  When we are saved, we are new creations.  He didn't save us, only to hate and reject our flesh.  If you shake off the false teaching, and see Jesus, you will realize that all things are yours in Christ, and that you are lacking nothing.  This sort of person doesn't act like George Geftakys, nor is such a one capable of doing so.  Christians are different.

George doesn't operate this way.  He has a seared conscience, and even now he is trying to deceive people.  He's different, he doesn't feel sorry for what he has done, he won't acknowledge it, he is a liar.

Christians are different.

Examine your premises, and perhaps you can break free from the false teaching that you have been raised on.  I'll name it in greater detail if you like, but you will have to give me a few days. My son is in a basketball tournament, and I am cooking for a dinner party tomorrow.

Brent

Dear Brent,

I am not saying that you are as bad as George, not in the least.  I am just saying that the opportunity is there.  

And just because you have been saved, that you have died to sin, does not mean that you can't be enticed with it.  It is up to you, to stay away from those things which do and ask God to help you.  Just because the chains of sin have been thrown off, doesn't not mean you can't still hear them rattle.

Quote:"If a Christian is no better than a false teacher, than why does the Bible warn us about false teachers, and their inpending judgment?"

Anyone saved is called a Christian.  Marilyn Manson was raised in a Baptist Church.  Probably saved.  But there will be judgment for him as well as anyone who chooses to go their own way even if they are saved.  There is consequences for sin.  Maybe not hellfire, but something else.

Not all Christians are different from George.  He is not a unique sinner.  It has happened before.

Quote: "Your Geftakys theology has taught you that if you don't 'go the way of the cross,' or 'give God complete control,' or yield to Christ's life, you will be just like George, probably worse."

No, it does not.  And please refrain from calling it "My Geftakys theology".  It's called reading the word.  No, the word does not say that if you refuse to give God control, you will end up just like George.  But there is the possibility.  As soon as you're saved, you don't get imparted with the new Sin Abstainer.  It is every day yielding yourself to the Lord.  Here is where our roads diverge.  And you are convinced that as soon as you're saved, you're fine.  Well, I feel differently.  So be it.

Quote:"Your last post is so peppered with false Assembly theology that I really don't have the energy to  point out some of the major points."

Just because you disagree with what I have to say, does not mean it's false.  It's called reading the word.  Feel free to disagree, but the next time you point out that someone  else is proud, reread what you wrote here today.  Please except my humble condolences.

Christianity is a committment.  A committment of giving yourself to the Lord everyday and asking him to help you abstain from sin.  

Please notice in all that I've said, I have not bashed you that what you wrote is just "false anti-assembly anti-Geftakys theology mumbo-jumbo."  Maybe you can take that to heart.  You seem to always be the correct one while everyone else that disagrees is utterly false.  Examine your premises.
 
Luke

Mr. Carty, don't worry, I'm not taking it personal.  I was a little oblivious out here in the midwest.  But who knows, maybe I could be next on the list.

"Good evening, Mr. Carty.  Your mission should you choose to accept it, is to disable all the posts that that infernal Mr. Robinson writes.  This is mission impossible.  This message will self-destruct in 3 seconds."

Good luck.  

Luke

Hi All!
  Brent:  I'm glad that you have not retired from posting as your contribution is very helpful :)!  Thanks for being here.
   It does seem the topic re. Christians, evil, and how to think and deal with it has become a bit convoluted here.  I think what muddies the waters is not looking at actual behavior as we make judgments.  
   Theological speculation that suggests, but for the grace of God, all could have fallen into GG's sin is hypothetical in nature, and therefore not very helpful in a practical discussion.  Though the Bible lays out the universal principle that all have sinned, it is only my personal practical application of that principle that brings me to salvation.
   It is the same in the Christian life.  It is possible, in a theoretical sense, that every Christian could sin any sin at any moment, but I am presently faced with my own personal temptations and weakness.
  By bringing the discussion of evil to what actually happened, and not what could possibly happen we obtain moral clarity and are able to judge.  When we make a judgment of the facts and are then told, "you could do the same thing; lighten-up!"  It is an attempt to obfuscate the issue and to justify the sin with the defense that,"everyone could do it."
   If I ever started a Christian ministry and: Committed adultery, attacked those who tried to entreat me, committed some more adultery, taught a false gospel that hurt Christians, committed some more adultery, abusively and cruelly controlled the lives of those in my church, committed some more adultery, told lies about those who left/ or tried to entreat me, committed some more adultery, allowed my son to abuse my daughter in law and family, committed some more adultery------- >:(!!!!  Well, I guess you get the idea!
   In the real practical world God commands us to declare such behavior "evil" and to call the offender to admit to and repent of these deeds.  There is no Biblical provision that states we must overlook these things in the spirit of forgiveness, because forgiveness only can come if there has been true repentance!
   Theoretical disscussions re. the human potential for evil are akin to arguing how many angels can dance on the point of a pin.
                           God bless,  Mark
   
   

Nonsense!

Christianity is NOT a committment. Your quote above is an example of a false premise, learned from a false teacher.

IF Christianity was a "committment," then the person who is most committed would win.  They would no longer be able to say, "Not of works, lest any man should boast."  They would say, "Christianity is a committment, and I am enjoying the rewards that I earned from keeping my committments."

Committment=work.  

Work does not equal Grace

Gal 5:1  Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.  2  Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.  3  And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.  4  You have become estranged from Christ, you who [attempt] [to] be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.  5  For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.  6  For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

If Christianity is a committment, what are you committed to?  Nothing is more holy and righteous than God's law.  Is that what we should be committed to?  

No, you wouldn't do that, because you have an idea that it is wrong.  Instead, you committed yourself to the "things of the Lord," or "The House of God,"  or "The work of The Lord."  These things are even less worthy of your committment than the law.  Why not go all the way and commit yourself to keeping the law?  "Oh, no," you say, "I am committed to Jesus!  I trump you there!"

The new covenant is based on the performance and committment of The Son of God.  He was committed, and He performed, and fulfilled God's perfect standard of holiness.  He is well pleasing to The Father.

Our righteousness, works, and committments are but filthy rags.  We are accepted in The Beloved, because of Him.  Our committment plays no part whatsoever in our salvation.  Otherwise, grace would be works, and we would have reason to boast.  If you say that YOU are committed to Him, you are saying that God is pleased with YOUR committment, and your ability to keep your committments, and your determination, perseverance, seriousness, etc.  Codswollup!

Christianity is not about what YOU do Luke, or about who YOU are.  It is about what Jesus has done, and who He is.  The way to please God is not to "give yourself to the Lord everyday,"  it is to believe.  Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness.  This is the work of God, that you believe...    Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household...

The idea that you begin with faith, and continue with committment is called the Galatian Heresy.  It is the very thing that the apostle warned the foolish Galatians about.  He said it was a false gospel, taught by false apostles.  He didn't say anything nice about these false apostles.  He didn't compare them to the christians in Galatia, he didn't tell the foolish Galatians:

"We are all capable of sinning just like these false Apostles.  Don't be so quick to judge them, all of us are capable of heresy, if we don't committ ourselves to the Lord everyday."

NONSENSE!  >:( Do you you hear me Luke?  This is nonsense! >:(

Paul said he wished the false Apostles would mutilate themselves.  They were NOT on equal footing with the deceived saints.

Christianity is about a person, Jesus Christ, the Son of God.  Grace is about the same person, Jesus Christ, The Son of God.  

Grace is not something we earn by our committments, or yielding, or carefulness, it is the character of God.  Did you hear that Luke?  Grace is  the character of God, exemplified in Jesus Christ.

He is committed, because there is no way we ever could be.  To add to His salvation, by claiming that Christianity is a committment, is a subtle, yet dangerous error.

The scary thing to me is that you have no idea whatsoever what you are saying.  In fact, you say,  "It's about reading the Word."  To equate false teaching with "what the Word teaches," is exactly what the JW's do.  

Gal 1:6  I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,  7  which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.  8  But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.  9  As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

Luke, you may not be defending George himself, which is good, but you are defending the false doctrine that you learned in his house.  You are defending your incorrect ideas and assumptions about critical doctrines in the Bible.  This is NOT good, and it will result in nothing but trouble, all the more compounded because you are standing against people who are trying to reason with you.

Now, you also make a statement to the effect that I think I am right, and people who disagree with me are wrong.  Well, I'll leave it the others who read this to correct me if I am wrong.  However, your statement is correct in this regard:  I do believe YOU are wrong Luke.  I believe you are quite wrong, even dead wrong.  I also think I am right, mainly because I used to believe the things that you said in your last post.  I was even more proud and blind than you.  I learned of my errors in the school of hard knocks.  Which college are you enrolling in?  Do you want hard knocks, bits and bridles, or do you want the gentle wisdom that is from above?

Luke, if you don't snap out of it, you will repeat the Geftakys error in the future.

Brent

Here's another example of a false idea learned from a false teacher: "It is up to you, to stay away from those things which do...."

Here is a true/false question:

Jesus said,  "It is finished, now the rest is up to you." True or false?


Here is a short answer question:

In order to be a better Christian, I must______

How would you answer these questions?  Luke, answer these questions and then look back on your last post, which I quote, and see if anything you wrote contradicts how you answered those two simple questions above.

BTW,  when you do "see it," we will all be overjoyed.  In spite of the rough treatment you get from me, I do enjoy your posts and contribution.  In fact, one of the main reasons I log on is to see what you are up to next.  However, I really do want to see you delivered from the errors that plagued me.

Brent

Brent,
  I think your understanding of the Gospel in the last post not only needs no correction it deserves praise for it's clarity.
   I don't mean to pile on Luke, but Brent has just made a huge amount of sense in his argument with you.  Please consider carefully what he is trying to tell you.
  There is a considerable difference in what GG taught, re. salvation and the Christian life, vs. what evangelical Christians believe.  GG made the new birth experience almost meaningless, as initial salvation only offered the possibility of the actual experience of new life.  In GG's concept Marilyn Manson (your example) could accept Christ and go right out basically unchanged.
   This was true, according to GG, because as a regenerated sinner nothing happens until you actualize your faith; in other words start to "daily yield", "read the Word," etc.  Though we are commanded to do many things as Christians these are not the buttons that release the life of Christ in us.
   Our salvation is total and complete, and from this wonderful new life "springs up" the desire to please Him.  If we choose the GG cart-before-the-horse method we end up shutting off the flow of God's Spirit in our lives.
    Those who believe in God's perfect salvation, and who trust in their eternal security there, do not end up living lives like GG.  It is an interesting fact that GG, who taught the insignificance of the new birth, ended up living a life like, well---  GG!
   As Verne said, "think carefully about these things."
                                 God Bless,  Mark

Dear Luke,

Suzie Tr0ckman here.  I am posting under Brent's name, as I don't think I'm registered.  Here goes...........

When I read your posts,  I see a subtle bondage.  I see it because just Three days ago God in His tender mercy, showed me an area of my life that I was in complete bondage.  It was serious because it was about the character of His Son, and the cross.  

I thought I had it all figured out.  My understanding was that I had to confess my sins every day, because if I didn't, and I happened to die, I would have to stand before God in my sin.  This may sound incredible to you, but as a life-long Catholic, who spent 17 years in the Assembly, starting at age 19, it is not so hard to comprehend.

Anyhow, I had recurring nightmares about dieing before I could confess my sins that day!

I was delivered at our home group last Wednesday night.  Instead of fighting against what God was showing me, I realized that it was an issue He was touching, and that I needed to receive it from Him.

I know that you are not struggling with the same issue, but I can sympathize with you regarding your bondage to your ideas.  I am the same way.

I hope this helps, Luke.

Suzie

Luke,
Why have you launched such a negative campain?
Have you been wronged, attacked, slandered.....?
I'm also curious.
Arlene

Four hours and ten posts later...

Dear Brent,
Maybe the word isn't committment, maybe it is dependence or belief in the Lord.  I was trying to say a commitment to the Lord, but maybe it didn't come out the right way.  No matter.  

I have been the last thorn in your side.  Ciao.  I guess you will have no more reason to come to this bulletin board.

By the way, answer to question #1: False
#2: Believe God that He will lead me, etc.

Verne,

Please take your nice articulate jabs somewhere else.  Better yet, leave them here.  Everyone seems to like them.

Mark,

I agree with you...mostly.  Keep posting.  They need it here.

Suzie,

Thanks for the post.  You help lighten things up a little.

Pat,

Who says I am defending my life in the assembly?  It is not that anymore.  I am defending what I believe is the difference between works and salvation. (And what others do, too.  They just don't bother saying anything.)

Arlene,

I have been wronged many times on this website.  
I have been libeled, not slandered, but who knows?  If I think long enough I might be able to conjure up some past memory where I was.
I have been attacked, personally on this website.

Folks, you try too hard to figure me out.  Let's all stop trying to be psychologists and detectives.  

Few agree with me and refuse to say anything.  Many disagree and openly say much.  It's a circus.

Sorry, Brent, if I do not sing your praises like everyone else.  I will say this.  God used you in a powerful way to bring light to the darkness going on.  Thanks.  We disagree on many things.  Don't worry.  If I am wrong, God will show me whether through simplicity or hard knocks.  And if you're wrong, then he will do the same.  

I am very happy that I have gotten to write here.  It has been a lot of fun and I have learned a lot whether I acknowledge that or not.

I am leaving.  Sorry, if you're disappointed.  I am no longer needed here.  And I guess, once I'm gone, everything will be pretty dead since EVERYONE AGREES!!

I do have e-mail if you would like to write.  But this is it.  My last post.  I will pray for all of you here.  Please pray for me.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

Hi Luke :)!
  Sorry to see you go.  You do liven things up here a bit; also I think it would be good for you to think through your understanding of the Christian life.  I would also like to know the things that I have said that don't fall into the "mostly" agreed upon issues.
   Clarity of thought is very important for a healthy and blessed Christian life and the BB offers a wonderful opportunity to work on our thinking.
   As Suzie shared, she thought she understood living by grace only to discover she needed to look at her views differently.  We constantly are in need of "attitude adjustment", as we easily regress into our old habitual emotional reactions to life.
   This is the weakness that we must struggle against (you did speak of struggling against the tendency to sin) which includes the lazy acceptance of one's desire to not understand the Gospel.  Paul called the Galatians, "Dear Idiots" (Phillips transl.), because they were not thoughtful re. their understanding of the simple gospel message and allowed themselves to be fooled.  They were"bewitched" by manipulative men, who brought in subtle erroneous teaching.
   In trying to help a particular present Assembly member I marvelled at the reluctance that they had to thinking through the issue.  They did not agree with me and believed GG's teaching was great.  When trying to discuss the details they didn't want to get into it, and they were unable to present any arguments to defend their position.
   This shows a dangerous cult like mind-set toward preservation of a emotional state that is gained in the group over the call to be Noble Bereans who think through what's taught and examine it critically.
   If my posts' have been helpful to others that is great, but if that is the case, what have they done for you?  Let's not give up the dialogue just as it's getting close to the point :).
   If you are wary of getting piled on via the BB you are most welcome to e-mail me and we can continue our conversation there.             God Bless,  Mark

     The last page and a half of this thread looks like a plate of spaghetti:  everything is heaped up and twisted together in a mass of strands that intersect and intertwine, but form nothing but utter chaos.
     There are some good statements, some not-so-good statements, contradictory statements, misunderstood statements, and redundant statements which purport to oppose each other.

     i will not pretend to believe that i can bring a clarification of this mess, but i will make an attempt at some reconciliation:

     First, a simple word about timing.  Ecclesiastes 3 explains that there is a season for everything and a time for every purpose under heaven and that, although man is exercised in the labors of these seasons and times, it is God alone who brings each to its fruition.
     There is a proper order to the progress of spiritual truth:
1.) We hear it.>> 2.) We see it.>> 3.) We learn it.>> 4.) We know it.>> 5.) We teach it.  These are pretty self explanatory-- no need to expound upon them.  What is important to remember always is that spiritual truth is the gift of God, and that only he can impart it and/or harvest from it.
     There is a very human tendency to become propriatary with spiritual truth, regarding it as our personal domain, and to skip over necessary progression in the disposition of it.  Sometimes a revelation may be so exciting to us that we don't want to have to wait until we've learned all about it before telling it to others.  This may be because we genuinely look forward to others' sharing in the vision, or just as likely that we seek the adulation of others for having brought it to them.
     In remembering that all spiritual understanding comes from, is given by, and is solely for the purposes of God, we must handle it with care and prayer.  We must determine what he is saying to us, what its meaning is for us specifically, and what he wants us to do with that knowledge.  THEN we can begin to share it with others, always keeping in mind that the fact of our saying it in no way assures anyone's receiving of it.  
     We must simply be faithful to him, trusting him for all the rest.  Timing!

     Second, a word about "Christianity":  the word never appears in the bible.  The word "Christian" appears three times:  Acts 11:16, in reference to disciples (i.e., the works, or discipline, of believers);  Acts 26:28, where the reference is to faith in Christ, based on the testimony of a believer;  and 1Peter 4:16, referring to suffering because of believing in/serving Christ.
     Why don't these references translate into scripural mention of "Christianity?"  Because the term "Christian" has to do with the beliefs and conduct of individuals, even when referring to them in the plural.  There is no organized fraternity, no social club, no political party of "Christians."
     So arguments about the definition of Christianity are moot.  There is no standard-to-meet-or-else-you-get-the- boot.  Being a Christian is about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and it is conducted one-on-one between a saint and the Lord.
     "Christianity" has no scriptural definition.  But it is a word that is defined and interpreted in many different and conflictiong ways in the world, and would be just as well left alone by the saints.  There are better ways to describe the body of Christians.

     Finally, i sincerely hope that, having stated your case(s), you who are arguing like lawyers in a John Grisham novel will be able to rest and let God do his work.  If you pray half as hard as you debate, the outcome should be assured.
     For my own purposes, i will presume that those who have misquoted Luke and misrepresented his points did so because they misunderstood what he was trying to say, rather than deliberately and maliciously.  Misunderstanding comes easily to those whose minds have been made up and closed preceeding discussion.
     i find no malice among the deliberators here.  But there is an adamance that i think is born not of love, but of fear.  Some who suffered under, and because of, George seem to lump anything that even remotely reminds them of his errors into a "dangerous" category, without attempting an objective analysis.  This conduct is damaging to the doers as well as those to whom they do it.
     For example, i believe that the "commitment" spoken of in II Timothy 1:12 is what Luke was referring to in his post.  His words were interpreted by others to indicate belief in a salvation by works.  A little less fear and a little more openness, please.

for the love of God,
al Hartman




     

Hi AL and Others,
  I was up early this AM and saw your post here AL and would like to make a lengthy reply, but I need to get going (everyone is spared my lengthy reply ;)).
  There is some history in this conversation between Luke and others that possibly you may not be aware of.
   Also, we can confuse things even more, in conversation, if we "spiritualize" the talk by suggesting truth is somewhat esoteric.  What I mean is by saying objectivity is in the eye of the beholder and/or knowledge of the Gospel is the special venue of an Individual and his Lord we are making the conversation more fuzzy, rather than clearer.
   We are often fuzzy in our thinking, and the BB is a great opportunity to have that thinking checked by others.  This arena is not some kind of University level think tank, but more like a back yard neighborly chat.  We can make mistakes and accept correction without fear of reprisals.
   Our present knowledge of what can happen to those who have been brought up in Assembly teaching does indeed bring us to conclude that there is teaching that can be dangerous.  The Apostle Paul got very worked up over certain phrases and actions that at first glance seem trivial.  He went to great lengths to expose and correct these teachings.
    I would like to say more, but got to get to work!
         PRAY FOR OUR PRES. AND TROOPS
                                     God Bless,  Mark

quote from Verne Carty's last post:

   "What exactly is meant by the 'progress' of spiritual truth?
   "Al you seem to be implying that the truth of God is somehow constrained by our ability to comprehend it. Would you for example argue that the Divine imprimatur of clear sanctions in Scripture is somehow lessened because the order you outlined has not been followed? I believe the bible teaches that the apprehension of spiritual truth is not a function of proper didactic or pedagogic methodology but rather a matter of revelation. I do not want to be argumentative but I do not think your choice of words have been as clarifying as your stated intention. Please help me to understand your meaning..."
..........................................................................................

Verne and All,

     Please receive this in this spirirt in which it is offered:  It is not my desire to bicker and split hairs, but to promote the exercise of love and fellowship among brethren of like precious faith.

     That said, Verne has illustrated all that is wrong about the attacks upon this thread, which, although it was admittedly begun in anger (for which apology has been rendered), was nonetheless a cry for understanding.
     Verne has disregarded all the points of my rather lengthy post except for a portion of one point which he appears to feel is vulnerable to disassembly.  This has been characteristic of the reactions to Luke's posts:  if an apt rebuttal doesn't leap to mind, work your way around the post and attack the the poster.  THIS kind of conduct, as much as anything i have witnessed on this BB, is typical of the GG assemblies' leadership:  If you can't refute the speech, discredit the speaker.  It is unworthy behavior for the Lord's people.

     Despite the seriousness and importance of the matters of this thread, i had to laugh, Verne, at your use of the phrase "a function of proper didactic or pedagogic methodology," followed in the next sentence by your telling me that you, "do not think [my] choice of words have been as clarifying as [my] stated intention."  
     Not being a heavy-hitter, i avoid such terminology as didactic and pedagogic because they are not a part of my everyday vocabulary.  It's not that i am afraid of such-- my dictionary is always at hand.  i just think it's a weighty burden to lay upon the average reader, to risk the need for reference volumes in order to follow relatively simple points.
     (For those concerned, "didactic" has to do with teaching, or conveying information, particularly as regarding morals;  "pedagogic" refers to education or teaching).

     To answer Verne's inquiry (although i don't think he or anyone else really has a problem understanding what i said):  Of course, nothing constrains the truth of God.  But what CAN be constrained is our implementation of that truth.  (Unless you believe that being born again and receiving the Holy Spirit means that one instantaneously has complete and total understanding equal to God's).
     What we have instantaneously gained is ACCESS to all of God's wisdom and knowledge:  it IS ours!  But we have to LEARN how to grasp it and apply it in a lifelong ongoing process.  THAT is what i meant by "the progress of spiritual truth."  The promise is that He will lead us into all truth.  The truth IS ours, but we WILL spend the rest of our lives learning what that means in practice.
     So, yes Verne, the apprehension of spiritual truth IS as you suggest, a matter of revelation, and you and i apprehend it as God reveals it to us individually.  Otherwise, we would all know all things perfectly already, and have no need of those teachers with which God has gifted the church.
...................................................................................

     Now, regarding Luke's entreaties:  If you rock-headed brothers (forgive me if i take that for granite!) will at least TRY to set aside your foregone prejudices, PLEASE re-read his words with the intent to understand what he is actually trying to say, and why he is saying it.
     i promise you, you are not so perfect in your understanding that you are incapable of misinterpreting a brother's words and intentions.
     Put aside your preconceptions regarding terminology and verbage, and seek to understand the heart.  One's words may seem to sound like another's, but the intended meaning may be entirely different.  Comparing ourselves among ourselves is not wise.
     As Joe Sperling has pointed out, the BB denies us the benfits of interpreting facial expression and body language.  (As does the bible.  So, as with the bible, here also we must depend upon the Spirit of God to show us the truth).
     Those who insist upon hard and fast rules of language return themselves to the bondage of the law.  The Word of God is immutable.  Our abilitiy to express ourselves is not.
     i have been amazed at the similarities i have seen in what Luke states and the statements of those who oppose him.  But no one seems to realize them.

     Listen.     Hear.     Speak the truth in love.

for the love of God,
al Hartman

in his last post, Verne said:

   "Do forgive if you find my insistence on precision in our use of language burdensome."

i respond:

     It is not your use of precise language that is burdensome, but your unwillingness to try to reach beyond it to understand those who may not share that precision.  You insist that everyone must attain to your superior standard.  Please don't insist that your standard is the Word of God-- i am referring to individuals' ability to express themselves, not questioning the authority of the Word.
................................................................................
Verne said:


   "You may crticise my choice of words, but you certainly cannot argue that they lacked clarity."

i respond:

     i have no intention of arguing, but just because what you say is clear TO YOU does not assure that anyone else will find it so.
.................................................................................
Verne said:
 
   "I do not believe the message we preach should be altered  or otherwise tempered to accomodate the capacity of the hearer - we proclaim God's Word, the Spirit of God edifies..."

i respond:

     Does this mean that you would use the same language and terminology in conversation with a group of postgraduate students as you would with a roomful of second graders?  Would you address a gathering of the American Medical Association in the same manner as with penitentiary inmates?  Members of the state bar and residents of a homeless shelter?
     i hope not.  We preach the Word, yes, but we must meet people where they are, not demand that they climb to our lofty heights before they are worthy to hear from us.
..................................................................................

Verne said:

   "p.s. No need to apologise Al. True and honest debate in no way requires ad hominem <[means an attack upon another's character --al]> attacks and challenges to your viewpoint ought not to be viewed thusly..."

i respond:

     i apologize often on this BB-- when i think i have reason to do so.  In this case, i wasn't aware that i had apologized.
i didn't think i had anything to apologize for, so any apology that you perceived was unintentional-- please accept my apology for that!
     Your replies to me are not a challenge to my viewpoint, but rather an ignoring and circumventing of nearly everything i said in order to get around to saying your piece without having to respond to mine.
..................................................................................

To Mark,

     When you last posted, i was in the process of writing mine (which immediately follows yours), so i hadn't read yours when i posted.  You said:
   "There is some history in this conversation between Luke and others that possibly you may not be aware of."

     Mark, i am aware of this, and it has been brought up before.  While it may be unintended, there is an implication that whoever has not suffered side-by-side with these writers cannot comprehend what they are writing about.  The same concept is presented in some of your other writings (e.g., Wounded Pilgrim) and those of others on the BB.
     It seems the direct opposite of Verne's We-preach-the-same-thing-in-the-same-way-to-everybody-and-the-Holy-Spirit-will-show-them-what-it-means.
     The unstated (thus far) suggestion seems to be that everything would run much smoother if i and others who see things differently than the inner circle would just be content to read without commenting or raising questions.
     i think i know you well enough to know that that is not what you're saying.  But i want you to know that's how it comes across.
     Those of us whose assembly experiences were different still have a history to overcome and issues to resolve, and shouldn't be relegated to second-class citizenship on the BB or anywhere else just because we are different.

you also said:
   "Our present knowledge of what can happen to those who have been brought up in Assembly teaching does indeed bring us to conclude that there is teaching that can be dangerous.  The Apostle Paul got very worked up over certain phrases and actions that at first glance seem trivial.  He went to great lengths to expose and correct these teachings."

     OK, Mark, i recognize the existence of dangerous teachings.  If you are telling me that Luke has been heard, tried, and found guilty of embracing heresy or otherwise dangerous doctrines, i think that i and many others on the BB who are not as well versed in this "history" as you, need to know some details.  
     Because the way it reads from where i sit, some brothers are so afraid that luke MIGHT be dangerous, that they aren't even listening to what he says before they tell him he's wrong and needs to get right.
   
     We all need to be reminded that this is a PUBLIC forum, and the ramifications of posts are far reaching.  On such serious matters as these, it is not enough that just the posters are familiar with the details.  If you want to communicate on that level, there is email.  But if you're going to post in public, be responsible to make it clear for everyone.  I speak to all-- not just to Mark.

for the love of God,
al Hartman



       

Dear Al :)!
  The history I refer to, in this discussion re. our good friend Luke, goes back to the beginning of this thread, which he started.  I mentioned this in my response to you because your argument seemed to lack this context.  I was not suggesting that only a "private inner circle" of know-it-all's could comment, or that only certain posters possessed the history in which to answer.
  I've often said that I'm just a Christian truck driver and those who read my opinions should understand that I am not a Church leader/worker, psychologist, counsellor, scholar, Bible teacher, etc.  If my post's come across as sounding presumptious, I'm sorry that you feel that way, but that is not my intention.
   I contribute here in a response to what our Good Shepherd has worked into my heart.  I care about these dear souls very much.  It is from that care and concern that I can not stand by and allow teaching and thinking, that I believe to be destructive to God's people, to be posted without challenge.
   Noble Bereans will not be personally insulted by such challenges as it invites contemplation and research into the Grace of God in truth.  If Luke, or anyone, has disagreement, then let's have a discussion; iron sharpens iron, and as a matter of fact, his original post sent me to the Bible to research the meaning of the word, "evil".  I learned quite a bit and discovered my original assumptions re. the word were incorrect. (His post challenged me!)
  My comments re. the Assembly are general in nature and are not meant to mean that all individuals experienced it the same as I did, or that I am an elite interpreter of Assembly experience.
  I think one needs to see the Assembly as a system, because I believe the Bible teaches us to analyze individual church doctrine/practice in this way (spirit of truth and of error).  In so speaking it will obviously appear to be an unfair assessment to each and every individual who was in the Assembly, if we judge them by GG's teaching and practices alone.
  I have spoken with those who were in the Assembly almost 30 years who are totally unaware of what GG was teaching, or of it's ramifications.  One wonders why they were there at all?  They have no clear opinions at all re. the nature of the Gospel or of the Christian life!  They tell me they saw how cruelly some were treated, and that they knew that it was wrong, but they made no effort to protest this behavior!  It seems they attended only for some private experience with "The Lord" that gave them a sense of being safe, or helped them deal with certain bad habits they wrestled with ("It was good for me").  Since these individuals could not be coaxed out of their own private experience to examine teaching and practices right before them, they were able to happily endure for decades in a place that ravished other lives!  (much more to say on this, but later.)
   The Bible says we are to earnestly contend for The Faith once delivered to the Saints.  The Faith is a body of truth that can be learned and wherein is found "The Way, The Truth, and The Life.  The Faith is the means wherby we hear the Good Shepherd's voice and follow Him.  To not hear that Voice clearly is to be in danger of being consumed by wolves/false shepherds who will ravage unsuspecting souls.
  Those who do not think through carefully and clearly their assumptions (especially after being in a group whose teaching was controlled by one man who had the character of a wolf) are in a very dangerous position indeed!  I will not sit idly by while His little one's are given to the wolves!
If I go too far in my zeal to make sure the Gospel is clearly understood it is far better that I do so than to sit on my hands and watch.(I'm not suggesting any poster here is a wolf, but we have all been heavily influenced by one for years.)
   I have dedicated my life to helping Wounded Pilgrims recover their faith and to go on to healthy and prosperous lives in Christ.  A true understanding of the Gospel is absolutely essential for this to happen.  There is no other path to this knowledge other than through our thinking.  It is false spirituality to think that this knowledge comes through some kind of "spiritualizing" process through our emotions.  In this false spirituality words all have different meanings and/or no meaning at all; in this mindset all that is important is my attitude or feelings re. the Lord.  Christianity becomes a private experience only; which is different from everyone else's experience; who's to judge?
   Personal experience and emotion are very important, but must spring from the safe fountain of living water found in the Gospel.  If there is argument re. what the Gospel is then maybe I should start another post and we can talk about it, for understanding the Gospel will cause us to grow in grace and in the Knowledge of Lord Jesus Christ.
  Thank you for enduring this lengthy reply.
                           God Bless,  Mark
     

Verne,

     Please don't give up.  i am grateful for many excellent posts from you that i have read on other threads.
     You and i seem to have reached an impasse on this thread.  For whatever reasons, we are speaking to each other in unknown (to each other) tongues.  If you, Mark and Brent are trying to show me the error of my ways, i'm just not getting it.  Please pray for me.

     i apologize to all readers here if i have brought to you confusion or misunderstanding.  My intentions were to bring clarity and understanding, but the general consensus seems to be that i have done otherwise.

     i will continue as before on the BB, except that i will not post further on this thread.  If anyone has questions or answers for me, please email me, either at my aol address or in a BB private message.  Both are available by clicking on my profile.  i welcome your comments, regardless of their nature.  i have a lot to learn, and mean to be open to any resource by which the Lord may teach me.

     Lest there be any misunderstanding:  While i am disappointed at my apparent inability to get my point across to certain posters, and to discover validity in their words to me, i hold them in high regard as brothers in Christ.  i love them and care sincerely about them.

Pray for me, as i do for you,
al Hartman

you guys sound a little like job's friends.  
Job 32:3
3   Also against his three friends was his wrath kindled, because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job.  (KJV)

this stuff is like reading a dictionary.  why?  because it's content is words upon words spoken out of a soulishness and lacks the loving and tempered spirit of God.  i have not read everything in this thread - don't need to in order to get a couple things right.  

are you sitting down boys?  (i'm only speaking to you the way you spoke to and about luke).  george was and is God's servant.  yes, he, i believe, got too big for his britches....but God is big enough to take care of adjustments that need to be made even in george.

george was not a infallible man when many put him up as "the great one" and guess what - he isn't a devil.   he's a man who, i believe, will find God's grace and mercy in a way he has never seen through these judgments.

be careful when you say that you would never do thus and so.....you don't know what you would do.  God sustains our life.  when we get the idea that we are above any kind of sin, we could turn around and find claws growing, hair  growing like a beast, an urge to begin or forage....watch out!

some have sounded so threatened by george's life.  God is not threatened by george.  God sees george as one who is small in His hand.  now, if you don't feel compelled to be under g's leadership, etc. - don't.  i think it is even ok to speak of things that seem left or right of center....but the strong language really needs to be tempered in order to make a case that one is speaking from a heart filled with the love and benevolence of God.  you run the risk of ripping some out of places by fear instead of encouragement - you can't push a string....ever try that?  in love and tenderness a case may be made that others should perhaps pursue godly instruction from other mature believers.

you know, there are some things that God has to "fix" Himself in a life (like g).  he's not beyond help or outside of God's reach - although it sounds like some would just be thrilled if that were true.  He's a big God and is totally unthreatened by a man,  but He loves us as His dear children and will take care of business in His good time.  

oh, i know the phone lines are going to burn with responses to this post, but oh well.....go for it.  temper, temper.  be careful, because when God adjusted job, his friends who condemned him had to ask his forgiveness and ask for prayer in order to get released from their own spiritual prisons.  

affirming    

Luke,

If what you say is true then why are assemblies folding and why are leading brothers repenting? I know that I have been apologizied to many times from leading brothers because two years ago I took a stand against the SLO assembly for allowing the abuse from David. It cost me everything in the assembly. Maybe that doesn't hold water with you. Maybe the losing of friendships doesn't count with you. Maybe being slandered in a small community doesn't mean anything to you. It meant everything to me!

This BB is the best thing to ever happen. People need to talk. People need to tell what happened to them in the assembly at the hands of George, David and Tim. I won't defend these men. Their acts will hold them accountable.

Don't play devil's advocate with me. I was there and I have first hand information. David and George are evil men. Talk about sins of the father being passed on?? George abused David and David abused his family. Tim, bystander? He was told what was going on, both he and Ginger knew. Guilty? Absolutely!

Here is a question for you. If George is so innocent, why is he selling his house and moving? I know, why doesn't he have a repentance meeting? Oop, already tried that.... Even Fullerton disowned the great man, George Geftakys. The ship is going down.....

heide, you sound very bitter.  how will you justify bitterness in your heart when the Lord asks you for your love?  how will you be able to condemn others - guilty or not and find forgiveness yourself? impossible.  you were hurt.  have you hurt others ever? i have.  it should be a humbling experience.  emotion does not heal emotion.  bitterness grows bitterness.  pls. forgive and you will be forgiven.  it's not easy to come into forgiveness on an issue when you've been hurt so very deeply.  but i know from experience that one cannot come into sweet fellowship with the Lord and have bitterness.  He will sweetly ask, heide, what is that that that you have in your hand that you are hiding behind your back?  may i see it?  can we talk this over?  this is the heart of our sweet Lord isn't it heide?  you would be better off to be mad at the Lord for allowing you to be hurt.  He has big shoulders and with God there can be reconciliation.  there are men and women who hurt us that we can never get reconciliation with in some cases.....so our sores stay open.  it will require an effort to let this go and get quiet on it (in your spirit).  there's nothing wrong with construction light being put on things, but when the heart is glaringly bitter - we can't walk in the spirit because "I" am too big.

Affirming----

You would do well to remember the words of Jesus, and I will paraphrase: "It would be better for a man to have a millstone wrapped around his neck and be thrown into the ocean, than he should harm one of my little ones".  Heide has every right in the world to be very angry, and the Lord knows that. For Heide to simply say "Oh well, I have been harmed by these men but I'm going to let it all go because it's not very christian to be angry" would be wrong. George is an impenitent person. He didn't just sin like any of us can, or "fall into error". He has done what he has done for years and years, and knowingly.

And now when brought to account he refuses to repent. Is this the mark of someone who simply "stumbled"? No, it is not! This is the mark of someone on a path of evil. It amazes me when I hear people come to George's defense like this. Look again at what has happened!! George has been EXCOMMUNICATED and still REFUSES to repent. This is not someone who has "stumbled" like we all can. Affirmed, have you been excommunicated? That is a very serious thing!

This man who fails to repent, and his sons have done great harm to many people. Heide is one of them. I don't think the Lord would ask her what she has behind her back--I think he'd tell her to let it all out--let your emotions free and be healed. He'd be asking George what he's got behind his back because he fails to repent.

--Joe

Acts 20:26  "Therefore I testify to you this day that I [am] innocent of the  blood  of all [men].  27  "For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God.  28  "Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own  blood .  29  "For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.  30  "Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.  31  "Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.  32  "So now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified.  33  "I have coveted no one's silver or gold or apparel.  34  "Yes, you yourselves know that these hands have provided for my necessities, and for those who were with me.

Please, before you read what I have to say, understand that I consider my contribution and faithfulness to be a mere sliver of the example and courage that Paul testified of in the above passage.  I use the analogy as if comparing a victory in a Little League game with a World Series win.  The emotions and sense of accomplishment are similiar, but the scale is quite different.


Dear Affirming (why is your email hidden, and why do you use a false name?)

Where in the Bible does it say that the Lord asks us to justify something we do/feel?  On the contrary, it is God who justifies the UNGODLY!  We are merely called to give account; however, the debt has been paid by another.  We will need grace, whether we have "bitterness" or not.  I seem to recall some obscure passages that say things about millstones around necks being BETTER than the judgement that will be meted out on those who stumble little ones.  You have done a good job correcting Heide for her bitterness, Affirming, so I ask you, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO CORRECT GEORGE FOR HIS ADULTERY, THEFT, LYING, ARROGANCE AND FALSE TEACHING?  Have you ever said anything out loud?  Written a letter perhaps?  Or did you simply pray.  In the passage I quoted above, Paul wasn't commended for merely praying about the whole counsel of God, he actually opened his mouth and made intelligible noises, at great personal cost.  When he warned them night and day, about false brothers, who were speaking perverse things, do you suppose that he had any bitterness towards them?  Afterall,  Paul recognized that Jesus bought the church with His own blood. Heide did the same thing, in fact, she was one of the very first people to warn others about David Geftakys.  she has recently been publicly exonerated for the shameful way she was treated for speaking the truth.  Heide has suffered for righteousnes sake.  What have you done, Affirming?


Tell the women that George abused, Rachel or even Judy, "You were hurt/beaten/raped, etc.  Have you ever hurt/beaten/raped others?  sure you have.  What happened to you should be a humbling experience.  Your emotion does not heal emotion, Judy.  Dear Rachel, your bitterness only grows bitterness."  This is a really twisted line of thinking you foist on us here, Affirming.  Following your reasoning, the victim, the little ones who were offended, become guilty, and we are to show pity and understanding to the ones who WISH they could go swimming with a millstone!  Are you going to scold the Lord Jesus for his tone on judgement day, when he calls people wicked?  This same Lord Jesus also said, "You know them by their fruits."  What's the problem here?  Why is it so hard for some people to call a spade a spade?  Can you say, DECEPTION?


No, a person is never in a good state being mad at the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.  This is a bad idea.  I would much rather be angry with the people God is angry with, than be mad at God.  God is angry with false teachers, and those who stumble little ones.  To suggest that Heide would somehow be better off being mad at God-- who has "big shoulders," instead of being mad at George is so stunningly ignorant of the facts, so glaringly against the basic tenets of right and wrong, and so full of the dark deception that stifles the hearts and minds of George's foolish followers--  is pure folly!  Are you actually saying that Heide would be better off being mad at God, instead of George?  I read and re-read your post, and that is what you are saying?  Is George higher than God?  This is what you imply!  I am amazed.


 :'((Sigh) :'(......ah, the confusion of GG's self/flesh doctrine.  I need to address this in a seperate post.

Dear Affirming:

Perhaps I am a little different than other posters, perhaps not.  Let me just share with you a few things I have learned:

Everyone was against me, and said silly things to me like what you said to Heidi.  I knew they were deceived, foolish ignorant people, so I didn't listen to their counsel.  I took comfort in the truth and in fellowship with Christ.  It turns out that the truth has carried the field, and won the day.  However, there will always be those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness; and I cite George, David, Tim, Testa, McCallister as leaders in this respect.  I don't know about you yet, but it is possible you could be a follower of such thinking.

Abusive people have an uncanny skill at manipulating facts, twisting things, and turning the tables on those they abuse, making it their fault.  "The reason I hit you, is because of YOUR sharp tongue.  The Lord is showing me how to deal with my temper, please help me by not speaking to me like that."--actual quote from an abusive husband.  

This goes along great with self/flesh people.  The abuser is not guilty, it's his heart that's guilty.  Afterall, we all have sinful hearts, don't we?  Also, the abuser isn't TOTALLY guilty, because the victim provoked him, and didn't help him.  She is also guilty, and bruises heal, right?  Don't be so harsh on a man who is a striker and a coward, we are all strikers and cowards, right?

When we are always focused on the conept of "I" being too big, in the way, etc.  we will never get the victory.  If we spend most of our time trying to put to death what is not meant to die, we will only reap confusion.  This obsession with self-life, or "I", is a messed up form of idolatry.

I want to say more about the preceeding two paragraphs, but before you respond, please read them carefully.  Also, don't even try to quote Solomon, Penn-Lewis, Mantle, Fenelon or any of those people.  I have read them all quite extensively.  If you disagree with me, quote the scriptures to back up your claims.

By the way, I do not plan on apologizing for this post, or my last two, in fact, I think they are some of the best ones I have written.  It also doesn't phase me in the least to be called "judgemental," etc.  If I ruffle the feathers of a GG follower, or one who continues to cling to his demonic teaching, then I take it as a medal of commendation.

Affirming,  if you read carefully the information on the GA.com website, and still hold to the opinions you SEEM to express below, you are one of the ones I can look at and say, "Lord, I am innocent of their blood.  I did everything I could to tell them the truth."

Here is how I am praying:

Lord, I pray that the people who continue to follow Geftakys, and those that schemed to bring Timothy Geftakys back into leadership,  will experience stunning judgment.  I pray that since the salt has lost its saltiness, and that the righteous have departed, you will give them over to a debased and perverted mind and that they would do great wickedness, in order that no one can ever again be deceived by them.

Read Romans 1 and 2.  It is not a small thing to reject the truth, and it is a truly horrible thing to manipulate people who are speaking it into thinking they are somehow guilty, or equally at fault.

Brent Tr0ckman  (email NOT hidden)

dear brothers, you are angry, bitter, and offended.  why don't you admit it?  if we make any too big, we are not giving the Lord His place in our hearts.  you can go on and on.  i can relate to what you are saying about the hurt. no i didn't keep quiet.  i was considered a rebellious sister somewhat by many.....probably some of you as a matter of fact.  i really don't hear anything any different in some of these replys....strong words and strong, controlling (spiritual sounding) opinions laced in these last posts with bitterness and anger.  let's get into the truth here.  the Lord died for His enemies.  what do you think an enemy is?  someone who you see eye to eye with and who hasn't hurt you?

OK,

I'll bite.  I am angry and bitter, and offended.  My opinions are spiritual sounding, and they are strongly held.

Let's get to the truth here:

What do you mean when you say:

?

In order to get the discussion going, I define an enemy as someone who wants to wrongfully harm me in some way.  God defines enemies as hardened sinners, with the chief of these being, The Enemy.  The pharisees were some of Satan's elite troops.

So, Affirming, you can ignore my last post and turn the tables by calling me angry, bitter, offended, strong and controlling.  I accept that.  

what do you mean to imply by your statement that God died for his enemies, and how does that fit in to our discussion?  I am not good at interpreting things like that, I much prefer explanation.

Brent

when i was His enemy, arrogant, proud, rebellious, when i hurt His people - He forgave me and gave His life for me.  when i sinned with impunity, He forgave me and didn't take it personally that i was selfish and self centered.  

i have been bitter and offended in the past and couldn't get over it in a day or one sitting, but faithful christian friends told me the truth that they thought i had bitterness in my heart that i would have to face and work on.  i did.  not i can recognize it a mile away.  it doesn't just go away.  

we make our enemies bigger than the Lord in our lives by putting them in such a prominant place.  it steals our joy and our peace.

when we are bitter and hold offense in our hearts we also have difficulty hearing the Holy Spirit - the Lord of our hearts.  if we can't hear Him very well - how can we get directed out of harmful places.

re: anonymity - why is the option given.  i don't you who you are brent.

another thing.  if the Lord gave you grace to do the exposing website - why are you taking the credit?

affirming

Affirming, I'll have more to say later.

RE: me taking credit.  God forbid!  He gets all the credit.  I am taking less credit than Paul in the quote from Acts.  The fact is that I did the website, with much opposition.  I can't change that fact.  If stating it means I am taking credit, so be it, but if you have read any of my essays, my farewell address, you would see that I am NOT taking credit.

I agree with you about bitterness,  BTW.

The problem I am attempting to address is not bitterness, but DECEPTION.  Deceived, unbitter people are going to hell!  (JW's who aren't bitter, not christians)

I'll have more to say later.

Brent Tr0ckman

we are accountable only for the light that we have.  everyone is decieved to more or less degree and not in full light in the beginning.  to be limited in light doesn't damn us to hell.  those who are living by the cross, humbling their SELF life, not saving themselves - can hear the Lord in their spirit and can obey Him.  i have found that in the past by not serving my SELF i.e. my natural man - and stepping over into the spirit man of my life that i am empowered because i can hear the Lord giving me direction to move out, to say something, etc.  

it is not a sin to be deceived and those deceived are not necessarily going to hell.  as we grow into more and more light in the Lord we get closer and closer to Him and will enjoy His presence more in this life and in the life to come.

the wicked who chose to serve their flesh will go to the deepest hell.  

the soulish will find themselves in misery as they may be choosing to be here in this life. the soulish are not spirit dominated and so they are full of themselves.  they may be proud that they are not indulging their flesh with sensual pleasure and living in the farmost externals of their lives, but they cannot be close to the Lord of spirits if their strength is in their minds and their wills have not been yeilded to the Lord.  

bitterness keeps us right at home in SELF serving.  i was hurt, they are bad because they hurt ME.  

forgive and you shall be forgiven.  the truth is that until we learn to come into forgiveness and learn how to not be offended, He has forgiven, but we don't even know what it is.  one cannot be a receiver of something that he doesn't understand.  
forgiveness is a word.  it's easy to say.  it is not easy to do when we have been REALLY hurt, betrayed, lied to, etc.  it takes some time and spiritual effort.  but there is no end to self serving and feeding offense is like pouring fuel on a fire that is already burning.

When I left the assembly two years ago I was accused of being bitter so I feel a need to put my two cents in.

Affirming- if you believe I am writing out of bitterness. I apologize to you that I sound so. I write out of a conviction to tell the truth. In the midst of this BB I don't want people to forget what happened here in SLO. I don't want you thinking that the Geftakys family have repented and are full of kind works and doing good deeds all over the world. If I have to stand up on every housetop and proclaim every bad thing I saw until they repent, I will do it! If I stopped before they repented I wouldn't consider myself to be faithful.

Remember the truth, remember what happened. These men are accountable. It's funny though, never before the assembly have I had to account for my emotions. Perhaps the geftakys ministry does make me angry. So what? The Lord says be angry, just don't sin. I don't think talking about evil men is sin. I don't think telling the truth over and over is sin.

Heide

it sounds like you feel called to do this.  if so, all i can say is that this is a very unusual calling of God.  why would you want to keep in focus something or people who you feel held you captive?  they hurt ME  is about ME.   it is not about them.  

revenge or vengence is MINE said guess Who?  it sounds also like you want payback for your loss.  i have had to learn to lose in so many areas of my life that now i know before the Lord that i have become a good loser.  we don't learn things very deeply unless it really cost us something. but if we will count the loss as gain in that i lost and i hate it, but i'm going to move onward and forget about it.

i really relate to you heide and appreciate where you are coming from.  i also went through allot, but you know i ended up much better off than i ever would have if i had followed the path i was on when i first came into fellowship.  i can tell you that no one would have dealt with my will or confronted my stubbornness the way i was in the assy.  and i learned allot about relationships in Christ, His will and God's ways of doing things.  many put up with allot from me.  i took allot and i dished allot out.  i hurt allot of people in the name of the Lord, but i also blessed allot of people.

heide, unless you have heard the Lord calling you to a ministry of exposing those who are wrong i would really try to go on to pursuits of a peaceful nature.  there is a time where our "warfare is past".  i think you have probably fought a good fight, now you can go home...that's what soldiers do.  let God take care of those who offend.  He's a big God.  whatever we do, we must go forward with peace in our hearts - peace must reign.  this is one of the ways we know where to go, what to do, etc.  is it a path of peace?  am i holding something out from the Lord that is my sweet little cupcake that "I" want to chew on some more?

believe me when i say, i have been there.  it's a discipline to say no when self pity knocks at the door.  i remember when i wouldn't admit it was self pity - but the Lord kept saying in His sweet way - yes it is self pity. but please hear me when i tell you heide, you will not get rid of any of this stuff in a day.  

i remember being so angry, offended, hurt, hating, etc. and knowing it eventually, admitting it to the Lord only eventually, then beginning to forsake it, and then continuing to forsake this self serving position and turning to serve my dear Lord in the spirit.  

the big cost is that we cannot serve self and the Lord at the same time.  it is impossible.  they are at enmity.  self motivation want to preserve self and wants to think for itself and wants it's way, wants to worry about itself...but if i decide to serve the Lord in my spirit then i must forsake my self centered motivation and serve Him.  it's no longer what do i think about this for me?  what do i want to do? etc.

it doesn't hurt a thing to speak up when someone is envolving me in a thing that i can see is not where the Lord is taking me....but the key is to stay in love and obedience to the Lord who is in our spirit.

i realized that the price i was paying for bitterness was closeness to my Lord.  do you see this?  anger is not the best way.  why does He say be angry and sin not?  it's almost an allowance for our natural man because we are weak, but the 2nd part "but sin not" shows us that it will be easy to move from anger to sin (hatred, offence, etc.)  just so i don't sound too awfully pious, you couldn't possibly have a temper like mine (in the natural)  it's bad, bad, bad.  

personally, i like a lady with a little spunk.  affirming

Here is the observation from a long-time lurker.

Brent's  posts are centered around what a person said or did.  He quotes, and then draws conclusions.  His logic is sharp and cutting, and very difficult to argue with.  Perhaps there are flaws and mistakes in what he says, and someone pointed it out, it seems to me that he would admit it.  His attacks are not personal, but focus on words and deeds that he feels warrant strong opposition.  To the best of my knowledge, as an extensive lurker, no one has been able to point out flaws or inconsistencies in Brent's logic, or use of the Scripture to back up his points.  That is not to say that he doesn't have mistakes and flaws, but people have not been able to point them out.  In this recent thread, Affirming has answered ZERO of Brent's logic.

Affirming's posts sidestep the issues.  This thread is about deception, not bitterness.  Instead of dealing with the idea of deception,  she sidesteps the issues and calls the people, "bitter, opinionated, and infers that they are not in the spirit."

I think it is really interesting that the crowd who is sympathetic to the lodge, for whatever reason, almost NEVER sticks to the facts, but always, instantly and without exception, tells the victims that they need to forgive and move on, etc.

If the topic is deception, why is Affirming changing the subject to bitterness?

I think it is because she is totally unable to assail the truth and logic that she is faced with, and is forced to assail the character of those who are speaking the truth.

I would like to see Affirming answer one question posed to her.  Read Brent's last 3 posts and pick one of the questions that he brings up, with regard to Affirming's own words.  Pick the easiest one, and actually answer it.  That would be interesting.

a lurker

Affirming---

Every post is appreciated and everyone has their own point of view. But your last post brought back so many Assembly memories. "Self" is bad, don't think for yourself, don't state your own opinion.  ??? Heide made a simple committed, spiritual statement. if she needs to she'll shout from the house tops all the bad things that were done until it brings a true repentance.

Then you made your post which basically states "deny your feelings because if you get angry you just might sin". That was the patented Assembly opinion which basically says
anger= sin(because it just might lead there). If someone like Brent Tr0ckman hadn't taken it to heart(and listened to the voice of the Lord I might add) to start a website, the same "business as usual" would be continuing in all of the Assemblies today.

What if Brent had "denied himself" and said "OH, it's wrong to be angry or the least bit bitter, I better just be quiet because that MUST BE what the Lord wants. The Website must be my idea, not the Lord's". That would be foolish thinking.But because Brent was willing to take the reins and start up the Website at the Lord's call many people have been called to account, and many more have been put on a path to healing.

Affirming---you seem to hold a distaste for the word "I". But I must say there is nothing wrong with that word. That is why the Lord made us all individuals, and gave us all emotions. He didn't give us indiviuality or emotions to deny them.  In the Assembly if you stated your own opinion you were "full of yourself". If you got angry you were "in sin".

I thank the Lord for the word "I". I'm the only one of me that there is. I thank the Lord for taking the time to create me. And he didn't create me so that some other people can tell me what to do or who to marry, or where to live like the Assembly did. I thank the Lord I'm free from a place like that.

--Joe

 

Seriously, I have heard this before, but I ask you, where do you see this idea in the Bible?  I don't read anywhere where we are accountable for the light we have.  People who no light at all are going to hell!  How can that be if they are only accountable to the light they have?  No light=no accountability?  I am not trying to put words into your mouth, I am simply asking you to clarify what you said.  Using the Bible would be helpful.



Again, I have heard all this, but where do you see these ideas in the Bible?  I know where the phrase "Natural man," occurs, and I know where the word, "cross" occurs, but where do you see the ideas I quote from you above in the Bible?  Where do you see the idea of "living by the cross?"  Also, where does it say how we are to "step over into the spirit?"  



Yes, it is a sin to be deceived.  There is no excuse for a Christian to be deceived.  Ignorance and deception are totally different.  Deception is Sin, and only comes about by sin.  Again, where do you see your ideas in the bible?


Again, I have heard all this before, (used to believe it myself once)  Where do you see this teaching in the Bible?  Soulish Christians are in misery, is this part of the "outer darkness" teaching?  Again, I am asking a serious question here, I would appreciate an answer.

 Also, If I yield, and you don't, that makes me closer to the Lord than you, according to what you said above.  So, this part of my salvation is based on works, namely my yielding to the Lord.  Correct?



Can a person forgive, and still be angry?

(I am setting you up with this one, be careful.  Jesus forgave all, yet some are going to hell. In fact, when He returns, He will be full of wrath!  Yet, he is not bitter.  Is it possible you are confusing anger and bitterness?...think hard.)

I am still awaiting a direct response to the last 3 posts I wrote to you Affirming. (thanks lurker :) )

I would like to see you answer the part where you say that being hurt is humbling and where I ask how it would go if you were to use this thinking on the women that George abused.  If I am looking at this wrong, it is up to you to set me straight!

Brent

brent, i may post now and again, but i will not be playing cat and mouse with you.  i don't care to follow your format of "look up bible verses hour".  i run a sizeable business and i don't have the time.  do you work outside your home? seriously.  this stuff takes allot of time.

furthermore, debating and combatting verbally just is not productive.  it doesn't help those who really are trying to heal.    if you disagree with my view - it doesn't bother me in the least.  

i've been reading posts for some time where several of you guys get into arguments over doctrinal issues and i think it's shameful.  that and the blame game will not bring God's blessing into your life.  your theology lacks love, peace, and joy.  i know that you think you know allot, but truly i believe you are missing the best part - living in love and simplicity in the Lord.  some who sound like they have all of the doctrinal answers also sound perfectly miserable.  i could debate over scriptural accuracy and might even surprise you and perhaps i should, but i simply choose not to.  i don't think it's productive.  

one little hint though, if you have hatred in your heart, you are already getting a little taste of hell.  wonder how i know that?  from experience.  i didn't read it in the word of God per se.  bitterness is hate's neighbor.  i know that experiencially too.          affirming

Dear Affirming

Now that I know, without a doubt, where you stand, I won't trouble you further by dialoguing with you on the BB.  I don't expect you to answer me, nor will I ask you to in the future.

I don't know much about working outside the home, I've only been running my own business for 15 years, outside the home.  This doesn't take much time for me, because I type really fast.

The only time I talk like this is when dealing with Assembly stuff.  The other portion of my life is not nearly so tedious.

I am glad that you found love in your heart.

As for everyone else, I'll continue to post when I feel like it, and if you don't want me to answer you, I won't.  I don't want to make anyone have to look up ideas in the Bible.

Brent

I'm not perfect in my spelling all of time but I thought I'd mention for the benefit of the one posting below that
the word "allot" is actually two words "a lot".

--Joe

It was a good study to think about this way of thinking again and see if there indeed was any Biblical support.  
I found the following two passages that I think were the keystones for such teaching.  
Rom 8:5-8, 12-14
Gal 5:16-21
(They are provided at the end of this post.)

Reading them again they seem to make a whole lot more sense now then they did wearing the Geftakys goggles. When I was in the G. ministry, the verses always seemed to be mired in something that I had to do in order for the promises to be accomplished.  They were always read with this hint and connotation that we're not measuring up, we need to try harder, and we probably never will measure up because it is too mysterious to understand.

Now I see that what was so "mysterious" was how George made those passages seem to be saying something that they obviously aren't!

Really, you have to pull just those verses out of context and completely ignore everything else that was said before, after and inbetween them.  For example, inbetween Rom 8:8 and Rom 8:12 Paul says "But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you."  
Oh, but then the Geftakys-follower would say,"Yes, but did you catch that it said,"...if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you" emphasis on the "if".

To which I would reply -- Exactly!  That is the whole point that Paul is making here.  He is NOT illustrating the difference between spiritual Christians that inherit and soulish Christians that don't inherit.  He's defining what it means TO BE SAVED and illustrating the difference between being saved (Spirit of God dwells in you, mind set on the Spirit, in Christ, inherit the kingdom, etc.) and being unsaved.  That's what the whole of chapters of 6, 7 and 8 are about.  Same thing for Galatians 5, which explains what does being free in Christ look like practically, e.g. fruits of the spirit, using liberty to serve others.  

The concept of being a soulish vs. spiritual Chrisitian is not there.  George made it up.  I think he grabbed it from a bunch of different people and then incorporated it into his racket of people-manipulation.  Sad.  Really sad!  What God wrote for us to know of our freedom--wonderful, joyous freedom--George colored it to try to enslave us for his indulgence.

Anyways, some thoughts.  Thank you for the impetus to study this again.  It's what you learn after you take off the G-goggles that really counts.   ;)

Arthur

Rom 8:5-8, 12-14
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot; 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
12 So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- 13 for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
 
Gal 5:16-21
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you would. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Well said Arthur!   :)

That's what I was trying to get Affirming to affirm, but she didn't have time...

Folks here it is:

The works of the flesh are evident! They are not hidden, or elusive, they are evident!  If they are not evident in my life, it's because I am in the Spirit, because I am a Christian! GG's self/flesh doctrine made out the flesh to be our worst enemy, elusive, powerful, deceitful and pretty much in control at all times.  Aside from the clear contradiction in the Bible, in the verses you mention, George's doctrine was really great... ::)

What a shame to discuss doctrine eh?  ;)

Many people say,  "Doctrine doesn't matter.  What a shame to discuss doctrine!"  

I guess this is true, which is why, on April first, I am going to become a Mormon!  I don't agree with their doctrine, but I really like their emphasis on family.

So, because doctrine doesn't matter, on April first, I am going to become a Mormon!  I don't feel bitter about this either.  In fact, the elders that came to my door---a very scriptural thing to do---told me I have to forgive George if I want to be a Mormon.  So I did, and now I'm not bitter anymore.  Doctrine just gets in the way of healing, I guess....

Doctrine doesn't matter.  The problem is not that we have another Jesus, or another Gospel, but that we are bitter and hurt.

Brent Tr0ckman
April 1st,  2003

Affirming,

I have heard the call to march on and tell the truth to whomever will hear it. You are in no position to tell me what is of peace or what is of truth. This is same ole assembly garbage that only you know what is best for me. I believe as long as I have breath that I will stand for those who cannot. Is that not the mark of a good shepherd? Does he leave the flock when the wolves come down out of the hills? I am perfectly at peace with what I am doing. Apparently though, it seems to bother you alot!

Pursuits of a peaceful nature?  I'm on the floor laughing, just a minute..... Payback for my loss? What have I lost Affirming? I want justice. I want the people who have been hurt to be comforted. Bruises, abrasions and welts go away over time but not the feelings. I want things made right with those people. I want George to apologize.

You have reminded me of something that happened last month, it was put like this. "We have apologizied to you now why can't you stop talking about it?"  As long as I have breath I will continue.

Answer my email or answer Brent, the ball is in your court.

Heide

perhaps i have more time than i thought brent.  do you know what it is when i speak of arguing over doctrine being shameful amoung christians and then your coming back with the idea that i said that discussing or looking at doctrine is worthless, etc.?? this is called lying isn't it in a round about way?  at best it is misrepresenting.  

brent, quite a while ago you mentioned that you are having allot of warfare in your life due to all of the wonderful work you have been doing to expose all of the evil ones.  at the time i thought - you know it may not be warfare.  it may be the lack of blessing and God's grace because of all of the negative and dark and condemning of God's people that you were responsible for.  

you know brent, i have been sick since i got back from mexico about 3 weeks ago.  i haven't had a voice for at least 2 weeks and been on antibiotics so i'm a little tired and i have a business to run.....so yes - i don't have the time or the energy to do allot of bible study.  truthfully i don't know why i am even doing all of this posting.  but i will tell all of you that have come back against me in attack mode - no matter how you slice it - none of you are walking in the spirit of the Lord.  you can throw out as many bible verses as you want.  you can go arm and arm together in agreement.  you're fooling no one.  we all know this is not the spirit of the lord.  i have received several private emails from friends from the assy who see it and who wouldn't dare post on this web site because of the lack of the heart and spirit of the Lord.  

Affirming:
Be courageous enough to include your name in your posts.
Sincerely,
Tanya Cantrell

Dear Affirming

I know you are not suggesting that I wasn't experiencing spiritual warfare.  I know you aren't suggesting that it was a "lack of blessing and God's grace" because of the negative things I was doing.  That wouldn't be healing, and would be kind of opinionated.

I had four days of intense spiritual warfare, which was lifted due to much prayer, from many people.  I haven't expereinced anything like it before, or since.  The issue was that something really big was happening with the Assembly, the enemy was being attacked and his house was being ransacked.  Suzie and I were under demonic attack.

It's all over now, and it ended in tremendous blessing.  My life has never been so blessed as it has since leaving the Geftakys flock.

Now, I am going to do something you haven't done yet.  I am going to answer your post.  I am not going to ignore it and attack you, I am going to answer you and disagree with you.  Do you see the difference?


I think I did misrepresent you here.  You did not say that discussing doctrine is shameful.  You specifically said that the way some of us were discussing doctrine was shameful, because we were arguing.

When two people are discussing something they disagree on, it is called an argument.  This happens in almost every conceivable situation in life.  People in cults view discussion of their cult's controversial practices as argumentative, shameful, persucution, an attack, etc.

Mature people, who believe in something can argue without going into cult fortress mode.  Read some of the dialogue between David Mauldin (A buddhist) and some of the other regulars on this website.  David is doctrinally out to lunch, from a Christian perspective, yet he has the decency and maturity to address certain things, and state out well formulated opinions.  They are disagreeing and arguing, but they enjoy it.

That is what I would like to see happen between us, but it can't unless you are willing to answer what I have written.

I apologize for mis-representing your words regarding doctrine.  

Now, again, I want to ask you  to respond to something you just said:

"it may be the lack of blessing and God's grace because of all of the negative and dark and condemning of God's people that you were responsible for."  

Can you name one thing I have said that is untrue?  If it is condemning, and true, then it is not the messenger that is at fault, but the person who did the deed.  Is there anything I have said that isn't true?

I have been abundantly and totally blessed for this labor.  I'm not sick, and God has given me a beautiful family, a great church family, a prosperous business and complete peace.  I also have a zeal to help people who are under the Geftakys spell.

Brent

Well, I think I will post one more time.  

Dear Brent,

Is this forum dying?  I think it is.  Do you know why?  I thought it was a place of healing!!  Why wouldn't everyone want to come here?  

Well, I think I can tell you why some left.

Brent, you seem unable to discuss without character judgments or [size=68]BIG FONTS[/size](NICE!! Is that supposed to represent your anger?)  You act as the leader of a pack of wolves who go after everyone that opposes you.  Just convince everyone to go after the lame ones on the other side.  God forbid that both groups agree on anything.

Well, isn't it how you wanted it all along?  You've seen those National Geographic Videos, right?  Try to convince everyone on the sly, that you are leader here, that you must be agreed with?  Your job is to stamp out the "false assembly doctrine."  And expose the "Geftakys cultic behavior."  Can you display that on your resume'?

It is amazing how you seem to hold everyone in your grasp.  They praise you and then you put on a show by trying to shoot down others' arguments.  Well, it doesn't seem to be working.  And you seem to become more frenzied.  

It is time for a reality check, Brent.  It is time to face the music.  Once, you had everyone's attention, and everyone seemed to be on your side.  It isn't like that anymore.  You know why?  Because they see how you fight.  It's a public forum as long as you have the upper hand.

So this is a place for healing?  Yes, I heard that everyone has been set free from the "prison" that is the assembly, but I don't really see any happiness.  Only anger.  And bitterness.

You like to dance around the subject.  Saying that "your post is so full of false Geftakysism's that I don't have time to enlighten you."  Let us kiss your feet and bring you grapes.   ;D  Would that be enough?

You and many others here, also try to null and void what I(and others) have to say by stating that assembly people take verses out of context.  This is just another excuse to get around the problem.

You are trying to fit into shoes that are a little too big for you.  Now that you have exposed the darkness, you feel that it is your job to tell us what is false and what is true.  
And yet, you are getting so caught up in yourself that you can't.

Let us tango around the logical, pirouette around the hard questions, and waltz right around the love.  God forbid we use any of that.
 
Do I worry you?  Be worried.  But not at me.  Be worried at how your behavior looks before God.  

A friend of mine told me that this forum is a lot of pain, little gain.  I agree.

This website is becoming a waste of time.  Most people have realized that, and have left.  There are still a few here who like to pour salt in their wounds and point fingers.

I will pray for you, because my words are nothing.

Dear Al,

You have been a real example to me and a great spiritual encouragement.  God Bless you for all the work you've done.

You know and I know that this website is a waste of time.  It has run its course, and now is just the Center for Mudslinging[/i}.  No, I am not giving up, but prayer seems to be the only answer right now.  So, I am going to do that.
I have my whole life ahead of me.  It is time to get going.  

Dear affirming,

Thank you!!  You are doing a really good job here.  Sorry, that they don't seem to be listening.  But if you can somehow get them to calm down, then more power to you!  You are gracious and honorable to your assailants.  Heidi, are you taking notes?  ;D

Dear Joe and Heidi,

We all know that as Americans, you have a right to be angry and bitter.  But as Christians...I'll just say that it is not good to wallow in it.  Everyone needs to step out of it, take a nice cold shower, and get on with their lives.

It is not healthy to be angry.  Yes, it may serve a purpose. But it really doesn't help.(see scripture below)

Dear Mark,

Keep up the graciousness.  Maybe one day we will agree on something.   ;)

Dear Everyone,

One verse.

Ephesians 4:26  Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

Wow.  Is hanging on to your bitterness and anger a sin?  Or is it somehow excusable before God?  But then again, I was raised in the assembly, so I could be taking this verse out of context.  It might actually mean that camels shouldn't be angry at red herrings.  If this is true, then you can totally disregard all that I have wrote, and write some biting remark about how I'm defending George.   ;D  

Paul says to not let the sun go down on your wrath.  Well, how long have you people been angry?  Let's see...365 nights in a year...multiply that by...{fill-in-the-blank}.  I think it's time to let go.  

You folks have some issues to work out before you start "working out the issues" in others lives.  The fireworks are over.  But many of you are still sitting around making explosion sounds with your mouths and waving flashlights.  BOOM!!  KA-ZOW!!  ZING!!  It's rather pointless.

I am thinking that this post will come of no avail.  But maybe this can help out one person to stop being angry and seek the Lord.

I won't be writing again, but you can e-mail me if you like.  

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

Luke!

You're back!  :)

I am totally glad you are back, even if I disagree with you.

This is not my BB anymore, hasn't been for a while.  The numbers are way down, and I have some ideas why, but I don't think it is due to my posting.

When I ran this place, I got many emails complaining about certain people and how they made everyone mad, etc.  I have a pretty good idea why the numbers were down then, but I don't know for sure why they are now.  I choose to look at it as being way out of control back when we had 15000 hits a day (17K was the record)

Anyhow, over here in SLO there are plenty of happy people who have been let out of the prison.  I honestly don't know what it is like out there in the "other" saint Luis...

I totally agree with you that the website has run it's course.  That's why I retired.  It is under new management, and I can't wait to see what will happen.  As for the BB, this is Brian Tucker's BB, and he is doing just fine with it.

Dear Luke:

I am not trying to lead anyone, and I am not "caught up in myself,"  I am merely trying to respond to a few people on this thread.  I do it in a way that bothers some, and encourages others.  Not too different than you, just from another direction.

Anyway, I wish this was more healing, but the problem is that a bunch of people come here and say stuff.  Believe it or not, I have about a hundred emails that talk about how healing this BB has been, in spite of all the junk.  It all works out for good.

As for you, I am glad that you have been exposed to much of this, as I know that it will all get worked out in time.

For the record, I am not frenzied, I am in touch with reality, I don't care if I have everyone's attention, I know I don't fight "dirty,"  I don't want anyone kissing my feet, but I do like grapes...

Anyhow, would you like to continue the discussion in a civil manner?  I would really like that.  Now that my resume is written, I will call off the wolf-pack and stop manipulating everyone.  I'll let people who oppose me post, which is something I have never done before.

OK?

Seriously, I am glad you came back, I only hope it is to stay.

Brent

Luke,

I guess that I must be part of everyone :).  And yes, I do feel that I have been set free.  However I have been free long before this web site, and the only healing that may be left is to reestablish fellowship with some other assembly members.  Although this web site may not be the place for me to do this, I truly believe that this web site has been used for healing in others.  There have been those who were confused and knew that something was wrong with the assembly, but would be made to feel guilt if they ever questioned the leadership or entertained the idea of exploring fellowship elsewhere.  The assembly really had control over many people.  I believe that this web site has helped people (including some of the perpetrators of this guilt) understand this.  This in turn has brought about healing.  I for one am thankful for this.

Now in some sense the tables may be turned, and some of the assembly faithful may now also be experiencing guilt themselves, and should be careful how they respond to their guilt.  Some may need to examine their motives, and examine why their first reaction may be a defensive one.  Who and what they are trying to defend is a good place to start.  Is it for the Lord, or is it for self?

Oh, and by the way, as at least a part of "everyone", I have no bitterness.

Hi Everyone! :)
  Wow!  This topic really took off!  Thanks Luke for starting it!  And, I was glad to see you back posting.
  Very interesting discussion that gets down to some issues that seem to come up quite a bit on the BB.

1.) Is Assembly teaching deceptive?  And if so, to what extent? (the title of the thread= Who Is Deceived?).  Is there a defect in the Assembly view of the Bible, and the Gospel?

2.) The continuing charge raised that those who want to discuss the above are, "bitter, angry, sinful, etc."  In other words only the unspiritual focus on such things.

3.) The nature of the Christian life:  Is the Spirit filled life actualized by the believer via the inner suppression of the "self life"?

   I would like to try answer some of these questions (not that we haven't in the past) and try to, with the help of others, to gain some clarity in these most important issues.
  In advising those who recently left the Assembly, who were trying to figure out what is baby and what is bath water in Assembly teaching, I advised to start over again in their research and focus on the milk of the Word.  In that spirit I would like to raise the topic of "what is the Gospel?"
   I will try and post a thought for everyone's scrutiny, and hopefully edification, at my earliest opportunity.  By learning what the Bible clearly and firmly instructs, possibly we will be able to see what is clearly wrong.
                                                  God Bless,  Mark

Dear Luke, Affirming, and all,
I cannot begin to address all the issues on this thread and won't even try.  I do want to declare that, despite the strong and negative opinions about the website held by Luke and affirming, this website was the main catalyst in helping me and my family understand what we'd been involved with for over 25 years. Over the years of our involvement we accumulated many pieces, but unfortunately couldn't find the puzzle box with the picture on it. GA.com was the puzzle box with the picture. Suddenly every single piece of the puzzle fit perfectly and we saw with clarity that we had been involved with a fraud and deceiver. God faithfully handed us that box. We put the pieces together with His help. Here are just a few of those pieces:
A piece of the puzzle: George was distressed after some meetings in Norfolk, NE because there were several people there who had obvious mental disabilities. (At the time, my husband worked in a mental health facility and was a great encouragement to many of his patients, none of whom were dangerous, BTW)  George made disparaging remarks about people with such problems and made it clear that they should not be at our meetings. His position did not seem to line up with the gospel, but George the almighty had spoken, so we put the puzzle piece away (to our shame).

Another puzzle piece: on a visit here, George became very upset because there wasn't enough money for him from the Lord's treasury and he was embarking on a journey. We put the puzzle piece away.

Another puzzle piece: he told a room full of workers about a time when relatives were visiting his home and needed a place to stay for the evening. He gleefully reported to us how he made it very clear that they wouldn't be staying in HIS home. They weren't going to force him to be hospitable-- haha. Put the piece away.

Another puzzle piece: he sat in our living room and made disparaging remarks about other workers who had the gall to exhort him about the difficulty of understanding his ministry, seminars in particular. Put the piece away.

Another puzzle piece: people who "left fellowship" were labeled as railers, they lost their vision, were carnal.  George told the story of a young woman who married "out of the assembly" and he often stated "God put her on the shelf", implying she could never be used. (BTW she and her family have been greatly used of the Lord) If you met someone who "left" and it seemed like they were walking with the Lord, it was just show and not authentic. Put the piece away.

Another puzzle piece: George sat in our living room and lambasted my own son for not wanting to be involved with the assembly. He did not answer one of my son's questions, not one. Put the piece away.

Another puzzle piece: David G. had a reputation for always leading the conversation back to sex. We were subjected to several of these kinds of conversations where he supplied way too much information that part of his life. Put the piece away.

Another puzzle piece: So much outreach, year after year, week after week, but hardly ever any fruit. One came in, two left... Put the piece away.

Another puzzle piece:  I spent two weeks in the Geftakys' home reorganizing his library at our expense. Betty was petulant about my being there.  Dinnertimes were agonizingly cold. Put the piece away.

The above are just a small, small portion of the puzzle. Many on this website have other pieces, larger portions.

I do not post this because I am angry, distressed, or bitter. On the contrary, I am excited, joyful, and deliriously happy about what God has done.  It seems that the people who are the most delighted with the website and its effects are the ones with the most puzzle pieces.  I also know that there are  those who want to continue saying there aren't any puzzle pieces, much less a puzzle.  I believe that they will continue to be handed pieces and will have to decide what to do with them.  

GA.com exposed the darkness in the Geftakys system. I do not need to hear the old mantra "but there were many good things too". That is not what this is about. The "good things" were from God, Himself - to Him be the glory. The rest was a man-made system, which hurt and defiled many. To discuss that system does not mean someone is bitter, anymore than it makes the Lord Jesus bitter when he defied or exposed  the hypocristy of the Pharisees.

Frankly, I find it a little amusing to see people judging Brent's and other's motives about this website. We will all stand before God. It seems a little premature to be presuming that any of us know what makes Brent tick because of this website or his posts. It really does remind me of the overall tendency in the Geftakys system to criticize and judge.  We are all entitled to our opinions, of course. I certainly have my opinions about George, but obviously, only God can rightly judge him and I know He will. Exposing someone's wrongdoing is not the same as judging and I think that is where the confusion lies. GA.com exposed. God will judge.

May God have mercy on us all.
 :) p.s. "decieved" is actually spelled "deceived" - that's been driving me crazy since this thread started!! (a former spelling champ from Fillmore county, Nebraska) 8)

What was the topic? Who is decieved? Stop muddling the waters. I'll make ya a deal, George, Tim and David  repents of everything and I will stop talking about it.

I learned something very important once about negoiations, once you turn and make it personal, you've lost. Instead of getting mad or upset Affirming,  can't you just talk to me? We might be closer to the same page. I have sorrow for the people (little sheep) that were treated badly in this ministry. I watched my beautiful friend be torn down by her husband. Her husband, a leader who couldn't be touched. Maybe you were one of the women that she told about it and you did nothing. Yes, she is out now but how many more woman are in the same position?

So what is the bottom line Affirming? George was excommunicated because of his sin. Would you like me to call him and tell him that I forgive him, would that be peaceful to you. Would you like me to invite him up here to preach his godly messages? You talk around the subject but let's talk about the subject.

Have we been so decieved that two women arguing becomes a cat fight? It is ok to disagree, the world won't end. We won't suddenly be whisked to the face of God. People have been arguing over the bible for years and its interpretations. Here is mine "You shall know the truth and the truth will set you free" How are you going to know it? Read it and discuss it.

Heide

Thank you Pat for a clear and insightful, measured response, that I hope ones like Luke and Affirming will take to heart.  I love the analogy of puzzle pieces.  I think those of us who were involved for any length of time, have our own puzzle pieces.  It is why I spent SO MANY morning times, agonizing before the Lord.  Weeping, struggling, knowing what I was experiencing in my deepest heart was not what the Christian life was supposed to be like.  But who could question?  Who could you even go to with these doubts?  Doubting was sin.  When I ever had the temerity to raise any of these doubts with the leadership it would be turned around on me.  I would be told I was in sin.  A classic assembly technique to keep the sheep in line.  So many puzzle pieces and yet due to the assembly control techniques you couldn't put the puzzle together to make a complete picture.  For our family, as for Pat's, it was the discovery of these other puzzle pieces (thank you Brent and the others who were bold enough to challenge the assembly party line and give us those other puzzle pieces) that made the complete picture, that enabled us to be delivered from the bondage, which is the assembly life.

For those who are filled with a little more emotion, like Heide, I don't fault them.  In fact, I have been known to post on this same bb with as much (if not more ;)) emotion.  Emotion is something God has given us.  I believe he uses it as a barometer.  They are red flags that we should be paying attention to.  He doesn't want us to live there.  It is simply a door to be walked through.  I believe this bb has been a help to those of us who have experienced these emotions in their rawest forms.  We have reached out to one another, many in private messages and phone conversations.  This is where the healing takes place.  We are human and we have human emotions.  As Christians, we are to help one another, as 2Corinthians 1 dictates.  We comfort one another with the comfort that we have received from Christ.  This is biblical.  I understand the Heide's, the Brent's and others who Affirming or Luke have pointed to as "non-Christian" in their behavior.   I am no different and neither are Affirming or Luke, if they think about it.  I will reach out to them in love, ministering the life of Christ.  To walk through the door to another place.  A place of liberty in Christ.

Luke----

I appreciate your posting again. But I really feel you are misunderstanding what I am saying. I am not angry and bitter towards anyone here. What I was trying to say is that George has not repented--he hurt many ,many people--these people have a right to be angry with someone who hurt them and then refuses to repent of what he has done.

The only thing I get "angry" about is when someone makes light of the fact of what has really happened. Affirming takes the stand that we should all just brush everything under a rug and think nice thoughts. There is an "anger" that is only for anger's sake, but there is also a righteous anger--an anger that stems from seeing people hurt around you needlessly.

There is an anger that arises when you see someone walk away from his crimes and avoids justice. I don't know about you but when I see a child-killer paroled after 5 years due to a "technicality" I become very angry. On a smaller scale when I see a George Geftakys excommunicated and he walks on in his unrepentant way, and people come to his defense, I get angry.

I hope you are understanding what I am saying. I am not angry at George or the Assembly just because I want to be angry with them. If I'm angry it's because of George's response to his excommunication, and the leader's response, and some people who continue to want to come to his defense and lessen what has happened.

When someone says "We're all sinners, we could all have done what George has done" they are attempting to lessen what is an EXCOMMUNICATION and a serious sin. This is cause for righteous anger, because you are attempting to lessen what THE LORD has done. You are attempting to lessen what THE LORD has exposed. You are attempting to play down what THE LORD considers a very serious matter.
You are defending a man and a system THE LORD wants removed. And when you lessen what THE LORD considers a major issue I get angry.  Do you understand what I am saying?

Thanks for your post Luke, I hope you continue, and God bless you.

--Joe

Joe,

Bravo to you for standing up to Luke's messed up perspectives!  We need to stand for what is right. :)

The title of this thread is, "So WHO is Deceived???"  I came across this article and thought, man those people are deceived. And I saw some parallels to the Geftakys ministry.

I think we all can learn a good lesson from this. I don't know if you all heard about what Jesse Jackson did, but what is even more alarming is that people still supported him and wanted him to lead them.  And, unless I'm mistaken, the same  is happening with Geftakys and his followers to this day.  

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/01/21/jackson.02/index.html#1 (http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/01/21/jackson.02/index.html#1)

<quote>
'We love you, Rev. Jesse Jackson'
Jackson had been in seclusion since Thursday, when he acknowledged the affair in a written statement. He said at the time that he would leave public life for a time to reconcile with his family.

On Sunday, however, he told church members he is grateful to supporters who made it clear that they want him to return to the helm of the Rainbow/PUSH Coalition as soon as possible, and indicated he is ready to resume his work.

Salem Baptist pastor, the Rev. James Meeks, who also is executive vice president of Rainbow/PUSH, told Jackson that the coalition needed his leadership.

"Reverend, we want you to know something today: Not only do we love you, not only do we care for you ... we can't afford to lose you," Meeks said.

"We need you, we want you, we love you, Rev. Jesse Jackson."
<end quote>

Look at this.  The "reverend" committed adultery and lied about it for years.  Now that the results of his sin have been exposed, idiots are welcoming him with open arms and saying "we can't afford to loose you...we need you, we want you, we love you Reverend Jesse Jackson"?????

So someone comes up to you and says, "I'm going to lie to your face, rip you off, live in lechery, pretend that I am worthy to lead you, act with an air of arrogance lording it over you, and all the while make you feel good about it."  
Then do you say, "OK!  please sir can I have another?"  

The short-comings of human nature astound me.  The fact that I am one of them is disheartening.  But the fact that God loves us, is for us, bears with us and helps us in our weakness is cause for great joy.  
Let us be grateful and pay attention to the warnings of the One who so cares for our souls.

II Cor 11
19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise. 20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.

John 5
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

James 2
1 My brethren, show no partiality as you hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory. 2 For if a man with gold rings and in fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in, 3 and you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, "Have a seat here, please," while you say to the poor man, "Stand there," or, "Sit at my feet," 4 have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts? 5 Listen, my beloved brethren. Has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which he has promised to those who love him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you, is it not they who drag you into court? 7 Is it not they who blaspheme that honorable name which was invoked over you? 8 If you really fulfil the royal law, according to the scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well.

I Cor 4
6 I have applied all this to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brethren, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another. 7 For who sees anything different in you? What have you that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if it were not a gift? 8 Already you are filled! Already you have become rich! Without us you have become kings! And would that you did reign, so that we might share the rule with you! 9 For I think that God has exhibited us apostles as last of all, like men sentenced to death; because we have become a spectacle to the world, to angels and to men. 10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but you are wise in Christ. We are weak, but you are strong. You are held in honor, but we in disrepute.

Oh, and get this, I just looked at that article some more and it reports that Jesse was the spiritual advisor to the president of the United States -- Bill Clinton.  Jesse counseled Bill on how to handle the Monica affair. You can only imagine how that counseling went.  I was going to write some more, speculating on that, but then I thought that it wouldn't be too edifying, though humorous. ^^
Let's just say, I doubt Jesse was telling Bill that what he did was wrong and that he needs to repent of it.

you know i know that it is difficult to think that anyone else has experienced the kind of hurt that "i" have, but just to set the record straight....i went through some pretty tuff stuff when i was in the assy.  i had a worker who worked for me that lied all of the time about work being finished when it wasn't, used the company account to charge personal stuff, wouldn't pay it off, told me he had sent the money in, when he hadn't, then would get up and preach toward me about the love of money.  

i went through agonizing betrayal.  everything i said that was 100 % positive was construed to be negative about the brethren and passed on to g&b.  but in my case i turned around and snitched also and got him in some trouble too esp. since i was his employer.  

when my husband, who had left me for my faith, would come into town, he would beat me up, take my car - since he flew in - come and go and do what he wanted - so do i know anything about physical and psychological abuse?

on top of these kinds of things, i decided i wanted live in community with sisters - so i started asking sisters to live with me.  for the first time in my life i got to sleep in a bunk bed - moving out of a big sprawling mansion of a house into a small corner of a shared bedroom...with another girl. this can be good fellowship for a young girl who hasn't just come out of a marriage.  in my case, i thought i had entered the suburbs of hell.  i cried and cried and cried...

now i have only described the tip of the iceberg.  i was always in trouble with g and or b...but you know something, even tho they were wrong in many instances, like joseph, God used it for good.  12 years of what i would call prison.  i became good friends with a fellow prisoner - joseph....so neither was my stay short nor was it less than horrible.

having said all of that, i must say - it all worked for my good.  no matter what anyone else intended, whether they repented or not....i grew up and learned how to hear the Lord myself and therefore stepped out.  i awakened out of sleep and left by His leading.

now i understand that many of you did not have the luxury of awakening by gentle nudgings and i understand that you will not and perhaps cannot hear and admit to the suggestion that you have bitterness.  to have bitterness is normal under these circumstances, but not to eventually forsake it is a damning decision.

truly, i have a little violin that plays "my heart bleeds for you", but i'm not joking.  my heart does bleed for all of you who have been so hurt.   but i'm here to tell you that you must
Ps 45:10-11
10   Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house;
11   So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him.  (KJV)

i am not suggesting that anyone "shut up" and hide the truth about abuses, wrongs, etc. but i am suggesting that if these things are not done in the spirit of the Lord rather in bitterness, it will hold you in bondage and so your captors still have you bound whoever they may be.  sometimes it's good to walk away, get on with your life and then come back and look at it.  

some of these posters are so mean and theological that one is afraid get very close.  this is why i shy off a little.  i will never, never, never allow anyone to corner me and control me again.

i feel brent and his band are just more of the same.  i spent many years as a sister older in age and experience to young brother who decided when and what i could do, where i could go, some even tried to tell me how to invest my money from real estate - some who had never not only not owned a home, but were at the time unemployed and couldn't pay their rent.  don't get me started....

i am not saying that anyone should just act like these things didn't happen.  i apologize if some of you sisters especially think i'm getting on your case.  i am not.  as a fellow escaped prisoner - i urge you to forget.....as best you can and get on with your life.

Affirming---

I appreciate your post, I really do. And thanks for sharing
some of your experiences. Everyone who was once in the Assembly has their own story to tell, some more horrific than others. But I really think you have Brent Tr0ckman all
wrong. When you say "Brent and his band" I find that rather troublesome. Brent is fervent for the Lord--fervent enough to start up a website at the Lord's leading and expose the Assembly for what it was.

I think you are confusing zealousness for the Lord with anger and bitterness. Brent was instrumental in exposing George and David, leading to George's excommunication.
When Brent sees anyone trying to defend George or his teachings he is "zealous for the Lord" and immediately seeks to help that person see the light. Because how can you defend a person who has been excommunicated and refuses to repent? How can you defend the teachings of a person who was excommunicated and refuses to repent?

I'm thankful to the Lord that "Brent and his band" are zealous for what is right and hope they continue to be
continuously. But thanks for sharing some of your pain from the past Affirming and I hope you continue to post.

Take care,  Joe

I ended my last post with the phrase "I hope they
continue to be zealous continously" ;D  I keep repeating
myself repeatedly.

dear andrea,  yes i do believe we could have a hoot of a time talking about some of this stuff.  now some of it is funny.

yes, i think i know what you mean when you refer to discussing differences of doctrinal opinion amoung friends, but unless i am missing something here, in many instances there is not an objectivity and restraint as sort of an ongoing pattern in many of the posts.  it's advisible, in my humble opinion, for people who come out of the assy to however accept other believers and not strain over a gnat.  i've heard foriegners  and immigrants speak of the need to assimilate when coming to america.  people who have spent a long time in the assy have been isolated and find it difficult to accept other believers' views on doctrine.  who speaks in tongues, who doesn't, how high can you jump in a meeting, should we dance the waltz or dance in the spirit, music, no music, once saved, always saved, or no, oneness or trinity or triune, all of the catholice issues, and yada, yada, yada. i love em all and could have fellowship with any who love Christ.  i just let them have it their way - it doesn't hurt me a bit.

to give you an example of what i think is shameful and harmful - because of some of the views i expressed that certain ones did not agree with or couldn't understand - i rec'd some pretty interesting private emails.  one of the best or should i say worst goes as follows

 -There is something terribly wrong with you...your invoking pseudo-spiritual language does not mask the obvious deep spiritual scars you bear...what exactly did George do to you madam?
Your representing a man of  this level of depravity as God's servant betrays a spiritual darkness that I find startling. I see you for exactly what you are...a vessel of wrath.
Verne  

nice huh?  listen my husband and i have a pretty lively fight once in awhile but we love each other despretly. and i know that one can earnestly disagree with another on scriptural or theological interpretation - but unless i am badly mistaken i have felt like some of these brothers would love to just clean my plow.  doesn't the above email kind of sound a little rough to you?  and the sarcasm that brent uses really reminds me of bullies on my grade school play ground at recess....and his matter-of-factly diced and sliced conclusions and the "passing down of godly interpretation of any given scripture.  i would surely answer some of his questions if i detected on oz. of the love of God in his asking.  and his bragging and all of the back slapping from others for his willingness to open the website.  when is enough enough on that?  when can God start getting the glory if this is of Him? this is my point.  is it more about brent's work and his wonderfulness and his cost in it all.  or can he step aside and become big enough to give God the credit for using him---i think it's because he doesn't see God as the BIG player here.  all i keep hearing is the crack of an elbow from brent patting himself on the back.

oops, i'm not being a very subject and submissive sister am i?  

Dear Affirming

I don't want to come across as being brash, or bragging about the website, which I no longer run.  I stepped away from it, the moment God showed me I was done with it.  I do not hold it dear, or have my identity wrapped up in it, which is why I let it go, quickly.  (Ask Steve and Margaret how it came about)

God is the big player here, and I give Him all the glory.  If you would talk to someone who knows me, or who has sat with me when working out repentence, etc.  I don't think you would get a view of me anything like what you say above.

The fact is that I did step aside from all this, although you indicate to the contrary above that,  "can he step aside and become big enough to give God the credit for using him---i think it's because he doesn't see God as the BIG player here."

How much more aside do you wish me to step?  Have you read my Farewell essay on GeftakysAssembly.com?  I think that, and the other things I wrote, where I took time to edit and really think, express where I am coming from.

As far as I know, I have not insulted you.  I have clearly disagreed with things you have said, but have I really warranted being called, " bullies on my grade school play ground at recess?"  Have I said anything or written anything that would lead you to say,  "i think it's because he doesn't see God as the BIG player here.  all i keep hearing is the crack of an elbow from brent patting himself on the back?"  Have I insulted you, personally?  If I did, I am not aware of it.  Certainly we haven't emailed eachother, and I am not aware of any personal insults against you in our posts.  

As for sarcasm, it is a problem I have, which I repented of on January 18th.  You are absolutely correct in this, and I'll see what I can do to keep it in check.  It is a besetting sin.

Brent

Affirming:

You do not know Brent at all.  If you did, you would know he is the first person to give God the glory for all that HE (God, not Brent) has done in using the website and the bb.  For all of your "humility" and wanting to espouse the right "christian" behavior, look at the finger pointing back at you.  

Brent waited for years attempting to bring men (not only George and David, but others) to repentance through scriptural means (see Math 18).  It was only through the patient waiting upon the Lord for his timing, that the website and bb were used by God as a means of bringing the situation to the church (as is commanded by Math 18).  There will always be gainsayers, Brent simply has a heart for those who have been brainwashed by the assembly indoctrination (I was going to say theology, but I believe the word I chose is a better description.)  Brent could simply walk away from involvement with people here.  His involvement is not borne out of a desire for self-agrandizement.  It is to dialogue with individuals in order for their eyes to be opened to the truth, instead of the darkness that is so prevalent in the assembly teachings.

You want people to just "walk away, & get on with your life".  You left years ago.  You've had years to process your pain, anger, emotions over what you experienced in the assembly.  Many of those who are posting have not had that luxury, or aren't even aware of the false teaching they were involved with now that the system has been exposed.  This is a place to be FREE to dialogue with others.  To yes, disagree, but not to be told how to phrase something in order to please all, or how to conform to the scripture.  Those were lessons we were too well taught in the assembly.  We are now learning, and I am saying "learning" how to communicate ALL that is on our heart.  Sometimes it's not pretty.  But if you read my earlier post, that is why I am here.  I want to reach out to those who ARE hurting and help.  Not to point the finger and tell them how they are supposed to look as a Christian, but as a sister in Christ.  A fellow sufferer who has been shown the love of Christ, not through the assembly, but through coming out and seeing how faithful my Savior has been in the midst of an incredibly difficult time.  

verne, apology accepted.  g is God's servant.  you don't make him so and you or i don't demote him.  was king david God's servant when he sent bathsheeba's husband into the front lines and took his wife and had an affair?  did God no longer consider him His servant? and it did take him awhile to come around to seeing it God's way didn't it.  do you or i always see our sin immediately.  g & b has been dead wrong on some things.  we knew this many years ago...but they didn't.  i believe they were truly blind on some things.  they were inconsistant.  they who preached to no indulge your kids - did, but couldn't see it.  sin is blind.  they lacked compassion for those whose kids were out of order.  but are they still God's servants? i believe they are.  God will eventually deal with His servants with judgement.  he speaks and is patient and give umpteen chances to change....but eventually He will send samuel to his servant to tell him a little story about a man who had a little sheep.   he was so blind to his own fault and sin that he didn't get it that he was the guy in the story.  when God steps into the arena with His servant - the servant will go down on his knees - believe me.  g. is my father in Christ and b. is my mom in Christ.  i love them and just like my natural parents - i can see terrible mistakes they made that cost me alot (hey joe i got it right) of pain.

it is not for us to decide who is god's servants and who are not.  just as you have been a little blind and harsh - not knowing who it was you were condemning, yet you are an elder or some such thing - i think you should give God some room to have things the way He wants them.  all of our squawking, and cutting ourselves and giving everybody around us a headache does not bring the fire down any faster.

there was a great work going on - but God's work is made up of weak and frail men and women, so with this in mind - we should not bite and devour one another.  

i got plenty mad at g esp several times and i had some pretty good pow/wows with him.  he tried to excuse his emotionalism by saying that he was just an emotional greek.  but i didn't let him get off the hook.  he really didn't know what to do with me at times...but i can tell you that in many, many cases when young brothers tried to whip me around - when i told g. he came to my rescue.

he has handled things too stronghandedly and apparently from reports allowed david to be an idiot.  judy was in a bad, bad place.  i am close to both of them or at least was about 25 years ago.  but what happened to judy? don't they sell guns in ca?  i believe i would have had to do a little target practice on some knees or something.  people do go to sleep eventually.  oh well, easier said than done.  but i am a little upset with her for putting up with it all of those years - i say this because i love her.  she didn't have to have someone else in the assy. take care of this,.  not these days.  no in ca.  

God's work in our lives, as i read my bible, is not a neat little package of ozzie and harriet families that live happily ever after.  He said He came to bring a sword and division between household members.  He separates the sheep from the goats.  can't we let Him be the separater?

you all, i know, don't think you could every do what g. has done.  but which one of you will ever do all that g. has done in terms of His service and committment to the Lord and His people - big work - big mistakes.  

this whole mess goes to show that God does deal with things that are wrong in the lives of His servants and it can cost dearly...but if they grow proud and won't listen after some warnings - they will be turned over to judgement and all hell breaks loose.  

Dear Affirming,

You say in your last post "g is God's servant"  and two paragraphs later you say, "it is not for us to decide who is God's servant and who is not."  Come on!

I vehemently disagree with this view.  First, I sincerely doubt that George is even saved.  How convenient it was to hear not to ever complain against God's servant.  This enabled abusive leaders to beat the sheep.

The Bible is full of examples where we are to discern who are God's servants.  In fact, aren't there qualifications?  If you are using leadership to mean God's servant, I believe there is.

I believe many of us would have taken a very different road, had we recognized and used our God-given discernment and conscience to see that g was not God's servant but rather a charleton with a very dishonorable history.

Just weighing in,

Suzie

probably not edifying! really?  would that you would extend such graciousness to others who have perhaps been very cruel.  yes, verne you may give my identity since - let's call it what it was - payback for posting your very rude email.  a man in your position should be a little slower to speak - even when you don't know who you are talking to.  i truly care about you, but you know i have been around the block a couple times.  you and i knew each other when.  no if i had wanted my identity known i would have given it some time back.  no matter how you agree with anonymity or not - i respectfully submit that you should not have sought revenge in giving it.  on the other hand perhaps you felt that you should have had a reasonable expectancy of privacy when you emailed me.  but i, unlike a judy type for example, will not keep abusive stuff quiet. that's where i "take off the gloves" ok?  now having laid all of my cards on the table - i need to break for dinner and i'm still sick so i'm not sure when i'll get back to respond to your 2 questions, but i committ to you my dear brother (being sincere) that i will asap.  let me give you hint of my answer - it may not fit in with your intellectual theology, but i could be surprised   affirming

Affirming,

I forgot to mention that I read The Tale of Three Kings, and disagree with much of it.

Getting back to your post about God's servants:
Can I "decide" that Joseph Smith is not God's servant?

Suzie

Whose "work" was this?? I sincerely pray I never will do/have the same "service/committment" to the Lord and His people that George is guilty of.
Hear about the 2003 California Gold Rush?   ;) Don't rush, though, "there is plenty and to spare". (Quote from The Hobbit, spoken by Smaug the dragon to Bilbo as he entered the dragon's lair, as the dragon lay in all the jewels that he had stolen from the dwarves.)

Hi Andrea

Read,  The Tale of Three Kings twice.  It's really short and easy to read.  Then we can discuss it.

I DON"T recommend Tale of Three Kings for a number of reasons, but I don't want to say anything until people read it.  Make sure you read it twice!

Brent

Hello Everyone  :)

I just realized that I took the topic even more off course with my last post.

Let's see if I can steer it back on track.

Who is deceived?

Any person who is loyal to George Geftakys, or his teaching and organization is deceived.

This is a blanket statement, but not a "broad brush," (which is bad according to some) because there are so few followers of George.

Let me re-state it, so no one can misinterpret what I am saying:

If a person is serving/following/receiving/supporting/protecting George Geftakys or his "assembly" they are deceived.  Let's remember that eh?

Now, I will be more than happy to defend my statements with facts.  Also, let me serve notice that if people are going to make statements about things, on a thread that I am watching--this is one of three that I watch--and their statements seem incorrect in a Geftakys sense, then I may point out their errors.  

I really agonized over this today,  "Should I just be quiet and let this discussion go?"  No Way!  I will not stand by and listen to geftakys deception ever again.  I'll try to be gentle, loving even, but I simply have no patience for Geftakysism.  I just think its bad for people.

Let's back on track, shall we?  

Geftakysservants are deceived.  That is a true statement.

Brent

Dear Friends! :)
   The Topic is "Who Is Deceived?" and I would like to address that by using some of the banter that has developed in this thread.  I will draw from some quotes from posts as examples, but understand that the one who originally posted these things may not have intended their point to have the meaning I give it; please do not take it personally, but as an opportunity for discussion.  Words do have meaning, and it is important to define our terms so that our talk can be profitable.
  Luke stated that, "Christianity is a commitment, or something like that", and then Al mentioned that the Bible does not use the word, "Christianity", and that we only find true relationship with God as individuals, through personal encounter with Christ.  Also, those who bluntly intrude with doctrinal exhortation/correction only muddy the water of that relationshp that God wants with His people.
  Affirming seems to understand the lack of deception as an inner experience of awareness; I'm assuming by means of inner light through the Holy Spirit.  When we identify and subdue the natural mind God leads us into the deep life with Him.  Doctrinal pursuits here are not helpful and are being used as a means of attack, and are based in bitter hearts seeking revenge for Assembly wrongs.

       THE FAITH ONCE DELIVERED TO THE SAINTS

  Christianity is faith in a set of objective facts.  How I feel, think, or even if I ever existed will not change these facts. (I:Cor.15:1-8).  These set of facts are also called "The Gospel", wherein is revealed the gift of God for men; our salvation.  It is an announcement of glad tidings that God has done something wonderful through His Son Jesus Christ on the Cross.  It is also called the "Grace of God in truth."  Grace, because it is all of God's unmerited favor toward us; a freely given gift that we don't merit, and never will.
   The above set of facts are set forth in the Bible via words.  When we hear the announced facts and place our faith in them we immediately receive the full benefit of the promise of salvation.
   As we study the facts of what the Bible teaches re. salvation, the nature of God, the Christian life, etc. we develop a theology, or a systemized view of The Faith once delivered. GG did not like the word "theology" or even of "bible study", as he was opposed to the above objectivity that I described.  Truth to GG was "inner truth" and to "study" the Bible meant you would "intellectualize" the truth. (a bad thing in his estimation)
   The Gospel facts bring salvation if received, but bring a curse if twisted or rejected.  This is why these facts must be earnestly contended for!  This is why Paul publically rebuked and corrected Peter! (in a later post I will answer the question, "was Paul bitter?")  The objective facts of the Gospel are the fount of eternal life and clarity is absolutely necessary!
   When I first left the Assembly I studied Evangelical Christian theology intently, and still do.  By giving my mind to the facts of the Bible God brought stability, healing, restoration, and balance to my life with God.
   Assembly instruction was primarily devotional in nature and aimed to stimulate the emotions (guilt, loyalty to the group, yieldness to group goals, self loathing, etc.)  Restoration of objective thinking skills turn the heart away from self centerdness and to the wonderful reality of the Grace of God in Truth.  God's Holy Spirit works through us by means of our minds.  It is not enough to be yielded in attitude, if I don't understand the message of God; we must be taught!
  When I speak of this objective instruction, I am not speaking of something difficult, but the simplicity that is in Christ.  None of us is "more" Christian than the next one, because this pursuit is not about higher levels of inner consciousness, but what each and every believer already has in Christ at the new birth.  It is our inheritance! ;)
   At my next post I will discuss what we have in salvation, the instant we are saved, and how that can help us to understand the Christian life.
                          God has blessed us in Christ!  Mark
 
 

Hey Affirming,

I appreciate more of your story- thanks! Just so you know, this isn't my life and I don't think I am bitter.You might find that funny but as for me most of the leading brothers out of SLO have made things right with me. The story continues though for others who have not had an apology. I think of it like this, fellowship is broken. Roberto is the last lb in SLO who hasn't made it right yet. Do I stand by and forget about it? I don't think that is being faithful. Am I bitter and angry about it, no. There is a timing to everything.

I hate having to justify myself and that is what I feel you are doing to me by saying you know the will of God for me. Call me passionate or zealous, I believe the truth will set all those people free. If I am the one to tell it, then I am the one.

I am glad you spoke more of yourself and allowed us to see you in a more human light.

Heide

Hi Verne,

 george bush and tony blair called last night and wanted me to come out and meet with them today and help them get some things worked out on the war, but I told them that I had an important answer I had to give to a friend today and couldn&#8217;t make it.  Seriously, my our troops are in my heart.  I pray for their courage and safety.  My knees would sure be knocking, but they sound so brave and gallant.  I&#8217;m thinking about signing up and I&#8217;m really a pretty good shot.  My husband and I went rabbit hunting with my brother on my dad&#8217;s farm in southern Illinois.  We got 18 rabbits.  I got about 13 of them &#8211; some on the run &#8211; used my .22.  my husband could hardly believe it.  It was an unusually good day of hunting for me, but we grew up hunting and that sort of thing.  Yes, I know.  This is bragging.  

I think, first of all, I need to say that, verne, I don&#8217;t mean to be disagreeable, but I cannot accept the premise implied that because we are big boys and girls that rudeness and lack of courtesy are justified.  Generally people who operate like that end up in a room alone and/or in a room with a few other&#8217;s who with abandon just call it like they see it straight off the hip without giving a care to be led by the spirit of God. The standard that I will look for is kindness, respect, and courtesy.  Otherwise, eventually I have legs too &#8211; I&#8217;ve gotten pretty good at just vacating places where I&#8217;m uncomfortable.  As g. might be starting to see, people do have feelings.  I&#8217;ve hurt my share of people&#8217;s feelings and sometimes it truly is unavoidable, but your statement I believe is a little out of balance on it, in my humble opinion. Everything doesn&#8217;t have to be presented on a silver platter.  If all you have is a rough, wooden tray, so be it&#8230;but I happen to know that you, Verne, have a silver platter.  

Oh yes, and I will not be following your format in my answer.  You should have caught me about 20 years ago when I took brothers who tried to lead me very seriously.  No, no.  oops there I go again being a free thinker.  Back then I lost sleep over that stuff.  Now it makes me start yawning, understand?  But oh the joy in my heart because I am wholly dedicated to what my dear Lord says and wants of me &#8211; to the best of my ability.  I&#8217;m sure others hear Him better.  But it&#8217;s enough for me to know I hear Him.

I think we need to distinguish between church leadership that has been recognized by God&#8217;s people as first godly and led by God&#8217;s Spirit, those with spiritual gifting &#8211; not necessarily perfect, but upright&#8230;..as has been outlined in 2 timothy, etc.  we all have bibles I presume.  

When I speak of someone who is the Lord&#8217;s servant &#8211; they are just that. They are a servant of the Lord.  God has called them to serve Him.  I would venture to say that many of those who God has called to serve Him have problems.  Most of us didn&#8217;t start serving God in a formal ministry capacity, but perhaps started serving Him in very humble ways.

So I believe I see two sides to this coin.  There are those who respond to God&#8217;s call to serve Him.  They don&#8217;t go around and take a vote and see who all thinks they are worthy of a leadership position, etc.  a servant of God may feel called to wash cars, sell hats, be a carpenter, etc.  

The second side of this coin is mapped out in 2 timothy, etc. and are men and women who&#8217;s qualifications of lifestyle and character are judged by the people of any particular fellowship.

God gave each and every person a free will.  We are free agents with a free will.  We get sold a bill of goods occasionally that teaches us some BIG lessons sometimes on what we should buy into and what we should leave on the shelf.  

There are 3 who can get the blame for our own errors in judgment.  Myself, God, and in this case George & Betty.  Well, of course, I am the victim with no control over my own life&#8230;.wrong.  then there is God who allowed all of my hurt and allowed me to go off base on my choice of fellowship&#8230;.and, of course, we can&#8217;t be angry at God or He might get mad in return&#8230;.that&#8217;s laughable.  But no, let&#8217;s just pin it all on that evil man, gg.  There is actually another that could be sited.  I don&#8217;t think I have read one single reference made to the devil, satan, the evil one.  Just a small, side observation.

Now, unfortunately for many of you who would like to end the assemblies altogether, you cannot because why? G & B started the assy&#8217;s and we live in a free society that gives people the right to assemble peacefully &#8211; which brings us right back to free agency.  If we were a part of a society that makes their religion a basis for their governmental structure like Iran for example&#8230;.well then, we could get this all outlined as to who is god&#8217;s servant and then we could just legislate God&#8217;s kingdom and how it would be administered so that there would be no one hurt, etc.  but even that doesn&#8217;t work very well does it &#8211; as a matter of fact we are in a huge war over crazy fundamentalists&#8217; ideas and condemnation of our values and Americans.  

God created each of us as free agents.  Each of us has sovereignty under His sovereignty.  We are joined at the hip with no one else.  Most of us have legs that will allow us to walk in and out of a place.  

I understand when some have spoken about the psychological entanglements that need to be untangled.  From my own experience, God is pretty good at this too once we simply take hold of our own lives and start deciding how things are going to go and begin to hear God&#8217;s voice &#8211; leading and encouraging us to follow Him on a path of peace.

Ps 118:8-9
8   It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
9   It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.  (KJV)
It does seem to me that, as I look back, that I epitomized (sp) g from the very beginning and so, like many that I now hear (or read) when I found out that he was far less than perfect, I lost my faith&#8230;because it was in him.  This was then my golden opportunity to find that only God is perfect and I learned, somewhat at least, to place from trust, my faith, and my confidence in Him.
to be continued - too long

Verne, to continue---
George has weaknesses&#8230;he&#8217;s a man.  God doesn&#8217;t call us because we are perfect. .  He calls us because we respond to him.   And yes you may be right &#8211; he may be disqualified.  I&#8217;ve been considered disqualified by my brethren before and that maybe hurts a little&#8230;but if he gets disqualified by God&#8230;.this is a BIG hit. One cannot say &#8220;you are not God&#8217;s servant&#8221;and make it stick&#8230;. but one can say &#8211; you say you are God&#8217;s servants and believe you are and perhaps you are, but personally I think you&#8217;re kind of an idiot (not that I encourage rudeness &#8211; just making a point)&#8230;.or I don&#8217;t think you really should continue to lead God&#8217;s people&#8230;in fact, if you do, I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;ll be hanging around any longer.  But God tends to let his servants go forward even when they have error albeit I&#8217;ve also seen Him get pretty rough with them if they get stubborn and won&#8217;t listen to the bleating of the sheep (as g used to preach).  God gives His servants many chances to turn from their error and correct things &#8211; thankfully He&#8217;s longsuffering with all of us&#8230;.how do I know about His methods of adjusting attitude and errors that we are stubborn on?  He&#8217;s taken me to the woodshed on a few occasions and believe me those things that I was once stubborn on &#8211; got worked out.  Some of these things I just couldn&#8217;t see until He lit up my my rear end on it.  If god&#8217;s servants get stubborn, won&#8217;t take care of things the way they should in a selfless and sacrificial way &#8211; God has ways to straighten them out.  The stronger they are the harder they fall &#8211; I try to just get my little boat out of the way of those big cruise ships that I can see are about to go down.

As for God&#8217;s people who follow leaders in error &#8211; what can you do?  You can&#8217;t force them out.  And to get all rowled up as some people do on this bb I believe is perhaps somewhat expected and natural, but nonetheless counterproductive.

If someone wants scriptural reference - look at David&#8217;s life. He was God&#8217;s servant and he did some bad stuff of which cost him his son not to mention a lot of disgrace and shame on the Lord&#8217;s name&#8230;.but God brought in a prophet to announce words of judgment that would consequently follow.  David was as blind as a bat about his error.  Samuel used an example of a man with a little lamb &#8211; had to depersonalize the story to get David to bite &#8211; why? Because he was spiritually blind at the time.  He had been blinded by sin.  David was a servant of the Lord.  David wrote shortly after his terrible big fall the following&#8212;

Ps 38:4-12
4   For mine iniquities are gone over mine head: as an heavy burden they are too heavy for me.
5   My wounds stink and are corrupt because of my foolishness.
6   I am troubled; I am bowed down greatly; I go mourning all the day long.
7   For my loins are filled with a loathsome disease: and there is no soundness in my flesh.
8   I am feeble and sore broken: I have roared by reason of the disquietness of my heart.
9   Lord, all my desire is before thee; and my groaning is not hid from thee.
10   My heart panteth, my strength faileth me: as for the light of mine eyes, it also is gone from me.
11   My lovers and my friends stand aloof from my sore; and my kinsmen stand afar off.
12   They also that seek after my life lay snares for me: and they that seek my hurt speak mischievous things, and imagine deceits all the day long.  (KJV)

Ps 40:12-15
12   For innumerable evils have compassed me about: mine iniquities have taken hold upon me, so that I am not able to look up; they are more than the hairs of mine head: therefore my heart faileth me.
13   Be pleased, O LORD, to deliver me: O LORD, make haste to help me.
14   Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.
15   Let them be desolate for a reward of their shame that say unto me, Aha, aha.(KJV)

Ps 51:9-11
9   Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10   Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11   Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.(KJV)

Ps 130:3
3   If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand? (KJV)

Someone might say, well, g hasn&#8217;t repented like this.  I would have to say that that&#8217;s god&#8217;s business unless you have found a way to legislate who meets with whom.  And if you have I don&#8217;t want to live in your country.

I personally believe that g & b are servants of God that are the kind of servants that God uses for beginners to teach and get started.  This was my experience and it was a rough one&#8230;but it grew me up in Christ. I feel that I owe them quite a debt.  I know that I needed people to be strong in my life &#8211; people to teach me how to walk with the Lord.  They did.  They loved me and shepherded me and served me in ways that I look back on and am just amazed.  Did they make some big mistakes? Yes, but I knew that they were serving the Lord.  I just think that the service of a g & b is very limited.  It&#8217;s what God&#8217;s people learn after they&#8217;ve gotten through their grade school that can really bring them into deep spiritual life with the Lord.  I&#8217;ve been gone for some time and so I don&#8217;t really know how things are now&#8230;but I will say I know a lot of servants of the Lord and I haven&#8217;t met anyone yet who does everything right so as not to hurt the one&#8217;s they are serving&#8230;.but that&#8217;s why I believe it is super important for each and every person to maintain &#8220;free agency.&#8221;

sorry, i'm not very computer saavy.  i wrote the posts on WORD. i don't know what all of the 8217, etc. are about.

in answer to your last question verne, i don't think abuse comes in from an inability to speak out as much as an inability to discern and hear God on things.

in fact, i would suggest that those who shoot first, etc. often end up being like their the abusers.

anything i can do to correct my previous posts?

Dear Affriming

Wouldn't you agree that when Nathan came to David, and told his little lamb story,  David responded like a true Servant of God by repenting?

By contrast, if George was King David, he would have killed Nathan, or anyone else who dared to question his behavior.  George has never admitted one ounce of fault, neither has his sons David and Tim.  I see a huge difference here.  You also mentioned a difference in your post, but instead of commenting on it, you merely said:

OK....George and his servants used to legislate who met with whom all the time.  In fact their whole ministry was founded on this idea.  Are you recently returned from a foreign land?   ;)  (not trying to be rude, just making a point---quoting you...)

Also, you said the following:


Is it OK if I agree with you and tell you that, although I have never once called myself,  "The Lord's Servant,"  I qualify according to your postings?  Furthermore, according to the Bible, I also qualify, and more importantly am not DISQUALIFIED?

Why do you personally attack and insult the Lord's Servant?

Brent

brent, good morning,

q #1 i think you are perhaps right and i certainly have killed my share of messangers, but guess what - in due time at least one or two got through once God softened up the region with a few sorties.

q #2 did none of these people have legs?  i used mine - you used yours.  g isn't an official of the gov't who arrest someone if they don't comply.  you can't escape from your captors until you have the ability to see it and walk out.  does this mean that everyone else out to cut themselves, and yell and scream until the fire consumes the sacrifice - do it it won't do anyone any good and often this kind of behavior breeds - that word again - bitterness.

q #3 to tell you the truth i think you are behaving better and using more courtesy.  yes, i do think you qualify - people tend toward flip/flopping a little i've noticed on this bb - so the jury is still out

i hope i understood your 3rd question - i'm not the smartest person, but i'm not exactly dumb either, but i am in love.

affirming

Yes, exactly

All of us had legs, and many of us left, years ago.  However, I have come to realize that although many had legs, few had eyes, and even though they left, they still couldn't understand what was wrong and had false guilt and shipwreck as a result.

The whole purpose of this discussion is to shed light on the problem, which is deception.  This makes it hard to use our legs, eyes, or minds.  So, my intent is to try to get people to "see it."  This requires kindness, patience, truthfulness, boldness, anger, fear, determination, courage, and lots of other qualities.

Light makes manifest.  George has messed up a lot of people, and sadly, many of them don't even know it.  They know they hurt, but they don't know why.

Brent

Nice gobbly gook but what is the bottom line?

George and Betty are deceived as well as crooked. What is a person called when someone comes and tells them the truth about what is going on and they are silenced and G&B do nothing about it? Those are not God's servants. Really, who did G&B serve, how many massages did George give out? Oh that's right, they were the ones that were served. There are testimonies on this BB as to their servitude in George's garden and home. People who did wonderful things in the name of Christ for G&B.

Do you think most of the little sheep would have been so eager to follow George, David or Tim if they knew about the sin (unrepented mind you) in their lives? If I had known that David was beating Judy, do you think I would have stayed? There is a choice here, if I have all the information I will make a choice.

I still think you are deceived Affirming, you jumped on here and condemned us all for speaking the truth. You don't know if this is what God has called us too. I hope once you take those rose colored assembly glasses off maybe you will see things differently.

Heide

Verne,

yes, i believe that's right -  that one who has been ousted by the church on earth can still be a servant of God...but first of all i have to say that the church unseen is much bigger and much more powerful than the one we can see.  this is where true administration happens notwithstanding the earthly church and it's decisions.  sometimes the earthly church appears to be rather fickle and powerless...ever noticed?  but the saints on high enjoy a heavenly heirachy of administration that truly establishes and keeps order amoung those who are His.  i believe they administer God's plan of salvation and levels of cleansing through trials, sanctification and teaching of faith, and levels of learning to live and deeper life in the presence of God in the spirit realm.  oh now i know where's the verse?  you know someone is going to have to put me on a payroll for all of the time i'm spending here.  i'm joking.

can you tell me this? are we promoted by heaven's staff before or after we are promoted by the church earthly? can we be promoted by heaven and not be promoted by men? can we be promoted by men and not by heaven's administrators? do they parallel?  what is promotion? and then i think that will take us to the question of "what is disqualification" perhaps.  and tell me this what do you believe the melchezedek priesthood is?

Just a few observations from finally reading this thread...

Brent,

Although I agree with most of your posts, I think all of your accomplishments have gone to your head...that is completely understandable...it's just human nature...

P.S. My reply to Brian is also for you...

Al,

I appreciate your posts very much...you have a very objective outlook as "just a Christian" and that is very helpful to this BB...

Mark,

You are very gracious in your posts...I could learn from that...;)

Eulaha,

???

Verne,

I love the stupid little jabs...you have alot of potential, but...

Affirming,

You have made some great points...don't let the atmosphere of this Coliseum cause you to back down...

Andrea,

What?

Brian,

Are you part of the Trinity???  Can I have your autograph???

Retread,

Always a fan...

If there's anybody I missed, I missed you on purpose...

paul,

yes, i think i just heard somebody mention if anybody brought toothpicks.  no really this doesn't bother me much emotionally, but it bugs me to hear so much pain and crying for help and yet some have bitterness and such anger - that it's like what my husband told me about drowning people that he learned as a lifeguard in college - it's very frustrating when you try to save someone and they fight so hard.  sometimes it gets really bad before they pass out or something, then you can get ahold.  what really puzzles me is that the ones who ought to be the lifeguards are instructing the victims to go ahead and continue to fight and stuff like "yea, you deserve to just have all of the fits you want to have." i understand being hurt, but i always knew that somehow i would not be able to justify my bitterness before God.  so as soon as i could see it, i knew it was there, but i just didn't accept that i would be living with it for long.  eventually i worked through it and let it go and it let me go.

verne,

why do you want it so badly - a pound of flesh.  this, of course, is not a question that i can answer.  i haven't been around g in umpteen years.  if i were around him, heard him preach, etc. i could perhaps know if ikabod was on his head.  i don't know if he has lost his annointing.  i know when i knew him i believe he was an annointed servant of God albeit he had some real problems to get worked out.  there are rumors of infidelity.  but so far i don't think there is much about his life that hasn't been suggested in terms of immorality.  

this i know many are out to judge.  in my 53 years i have not known as cruel a people as some fundamenalist religious people.  beyond a yea and a nay - i leave this stuff in hand's of God and wiser saints than myself.  


Matt 25:31-46
31   When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32   And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33   And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34   Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35   For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36   Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37   Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38   When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39   Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40   And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41   Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42   For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43   I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44   Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45   Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46   And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
(KJV)

my point is some who think they are - are not and some who think they are not - are.  i don't believe this scripture is about "doing" good works.  i believe this is an instruction of the fact that God is judge and He looks deep into the heart of a man or woman and SEES us - who we really are...not what others think, not what success we've had in numbers of people for us or conversely - who or how many are against us.......

you didn't answer my questions - did i answer yours?

Affirming---

"The ones who ought to be lifeguards are instructing the vicitims to go ahead and continue to fight and stuff like 'yea, you deserve to just have all of the fits you want to have". You said this in reference to someone who fights someone trying to save them from drowning.

But I must say Affirming there is another way to look at this too. You very well could be like the person on the other side of a burning house, and as people warn everyone inside to "Get out of that house!!! It's on fire!!!" you reply "Oh, don't listen to them, they're just angry and bitter".

Brent and others are like the firefighters outside yelling "Get out of that place now, it's surrounded with flames and you're gonna get burned if you stay there!!!"
You're like the one saying "Oh come on, it's not all that serious, it's probably just a trash can fire". So you instruct  the "victims" to just be calm and relax and do nothing because the Lord will help them. But just maybe the Lord sent the firefighters to warn about the serious fire. Is this a possiblility? yes--a very real possibility.

The Lord has warned his people to get out of that place and far from it's teachings, to "earnestly contend for the faith" and expose the error by shouting from the rooftops if necessary. It's far better that the "victims" struggle to get free rather than sit back and do nothing--It's better to escape the flames than to start passing out the marshmallows as the fire draws nearer.

--Joe

Thanks Paul

I'll take this to heart.  The last thing I want to do is think that any of this is "my" accomplishment.  Yes, I was there, and obeyed, but we both know that there is NO WAY that I could have done this, without God's annointing and leading.  I don't want any more credit than I deserve, neither do I want to take away anyone else's reward for what they did.  

I am not happy that George and the Geftakys's have been exposed, I am only happy that some of God's people have been delivered.  I will be even happier when more of them come along.

There was more to George's ministry than just a few people.  There was some power there, but I believe, with all my heart, that is was demonic power.  Affirming said, in one of her posts, that the one person we never seem to blame is the Evil One.  I know she hasn't been around here for long, so I just wanted to make sure that everyone understands that I am under no illusions that George is our enemy.  

We wrestle not against flesh and blood.  George is a wicked man, who has only a short time to repent.  As the Bible tells us, his mouth must be stopped, he must be withstood to his face, because he is to be blamed.  He must be rebuked before all, that the others may fear.  However, behind all of this is Satan himself.

The reason we can't just stop short and say,  "Well, George has been exposed.  Can't we all just move on?"  is because the spirit behind Geftakysism is alive and well, waiting to bring many back again into a yoke of bondage.

3 years ago, when I knew the truth about George, David and the rest, it broke my heart to see how blind and hostile everyone was towards the truth.  Now, people are willing to admit that George was wrong, to one degree or another, but they act as if they figured it out for themselves.  I'm sorry, but the truth was forced upon many of you, without your consent, and in spite of your wishes. You would have remained in the dark if no one spoke up.  Is this not true?  

Now, when people know the truth, the same prideful ignorance is being shown with regard to the other things that they served, things that accompanied George.

4 years ago, we all "Served only Christ."  Now, looking back, many of us realize that we were deceived.  For others, the fact that they may not have been totally enlightened under George's teaching is just beginning to dawn on them.  Still others think that George was great, and that his teaching was godly, but that he fell into sin and we should cut him a break.

Let me be so bold as to say that perahps I am a little farther along in the enlightenment process, with regard to Gefatkysism.  (Please don't call this pride.  I had inside information for years, while everyone in the Assembly called me a liar, etc.  In fact, one of you Robinson boys wrote Rick Ross about how everything on the web was a lie.  I am not being proud, I just happened to be mentally put together, and to have lived with David and Judy, and next door to them for many years, in order that I was able to see that something was wrong.  This isn't pride, it is simply a fact.  I didn't choose this lot, it chose me.)

So, when you hear me "go off," in a post, it could very well be pride.  At the same time, it could be mixed with a good deal of truth.  I am asking that all of you hold me accountable in this area.  If my pride comes out too strong in my posts, so that you can't hear what I am trying to say, then I want you to call me on it.

Fair enough?

Brent

In regards to the people who had legs and didn't leave. I would like to go back into history. Once upon a time, Judy told David that she was going to leave him, he said that was fine but she couldn't take the kids. She chose to stay.

Another history? What happens when you leave the assembly? I was taught that I was in danger of losing my place in heaven, those mainstream churches don't have life, I will flounder out here on my own. Hmmm, doesn't really make me want to leave.

I understand about crying in sister's homes. I did my share. Not because I wasn't godly but because I couldn't live up to a standard. A man's standard of how women should behave. God was no where in that. It was an assembly teaching.

So has this thread now become that Brent is deceived?

Heide

Dear Affirming

I know you probably won't respond to this, but I'm like a trout who smell powerbait..I just can't help myself, I gotta take the hook.

Nowhere, absolutely nowhere in the Bible does it ever say anything about, "different levels of cleansing."  Yes, I am familiar with the Deeper Life ideas of the Keswick writers, Govett, Guyon, and the others.  Quite familiar actually.  I used to love this stuff, because it helped me make sense of the senseless.  Everything seemed wrong, but on a deeper, higher level, surely all of this wrong was really being used for right!  I only needed to submit to the false, in order that God could get His perfect plan in my life.  On a "deep, spiritual level," it all made sense.

I don't believe that sort of thing anymore.

---

The Melchizedekian priesthood differs from the Aaronic priesthood in that the former is headed by a King/Priest, the Great High Priest being the Lord Jesus.

Aaronic priests did not excercise the authority of kings, they were subject to them.  They were mediators, not legislators.

The Melchizedekian priesthood exercise executive as well as mediatorial functions.  That is what Christians are, royal priests.  Aaronic priests are through Levi,  and royal priests are through David, and thus through Christ.

I eagerly await your explanation as to why you bring up this topic.

Brent

I agree, Mark, well put.  Our faith is not based on personal opinons or feelings, rather on divine revelation from God, i.e. God spoke the truth to mankind, recorded in what we know as the Bible (and with that, we have recorded the very life and words of the one who was the Word became flesh, Jesus).  
It seems that a lot of problems that we, as humans, have is that we can not see clearly and therefore speak or act in ineffective, and sometimes harmful, wrong directions.  
Isn't that the issue that is the cause for the strife in this very thread?   If we all could see the truth clearly and had a heart to do what is right, no doubt there would be no problems.
Perhaps a careful study into the claims of some in this thread would reveal if what they said was true.

As for Christians adhering to sound doctrine, take a look at the following verses. (There are many also in the O.T. but I thought I'd cut the list down for brevity :)  Of particular interest to me are the verses in I and II Tim and Titus.  Paul exhorts both to hold to sound doctrine, to live it, and to never stop preaching it.  
Also, from the passages in Galatians, we see just why it is that Paul is so adamant about taking his stand for the truth of the gospel.  Because Jesus paid so great a price to set us free, Paul would never taint or twist in any way the simple and clear message of what Jesus did for us.  THAT is the sound doctrine that we need to cling to and proclaim.
You can just hear Paul saying with passion, "I do NOT frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain!"  No way would Paul give in to that.  Why?  Because, as he said, Jesus "loved me and gave himself for me."


Matt 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.  

Matt 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.  

John 8:31-32
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

John 20:31
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Rom 6:17
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Rom 10:17
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Rom 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Gal 1:6-12
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. 10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. 11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Gal 2:4-5,14,21
4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: 5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Eph 2:20
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

I Tim 1:9-11
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

I Tim 4:6
If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

I Tim 4:13
Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.  

I Tim 4:16
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

I Tim 6:2b-5
These things teach and exhort. 3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

II Tim 1:13-14
13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

II Tim 3:10a, 13-17
10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life,...
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

II Tim 4:1-5
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Titus 1:9-16
9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. 10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. 12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. 13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. 15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Tit 2:1
1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

Tit 2:6-8
6 Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded. 7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity, 8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.

Heb 13:9
Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.  

II Pet 1:19-21
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

II John 1:9-10
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:  

The "&#8217;" is annoying.  The cause is that a graphical quotation mark is inserted --   '   -- and the bb software can't interpret it correctly.  
To solve this, after copying the text from Word into your post, you'd have to go back and retype each ' that you see.  The quotation mark that you type in this post is readable by the bb software.  

Arthrur

What about Jesse J.?  I think maybe it got buried, but I thought it was a pertinent story, if not almost humorous.  :)

Of course David is the quintessential case; how did he respond when confronted with his sin?
 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord...
2 Samuel 12:13

This is, in my view, the distinguishing standard. How does one respond when confronted with transgression?
In all the cases in which we find failure on the part of God’s servants, correction and discipline results in immediate submission and acceptance of God's discipline. This is true of Abraham, it is true of Moses, it is true of  Samson, it is true of David, it is true of Jonah…all certified true servants of the living God, yet not without sin. When God summarily slew the wicked sons of Aaron he wisely "held his peace".  Romans nine in fact tells us that the response to God's correction is one of the ways in which the eternal counsels of God are most sharply delineated, Think long and hard about it folks. This is weighty. What about George Geftakys??
I respectfully submit that the absence of this defining characteristic is definitive in the matter of our assessment of George Geftakys. He refuses to repent!
Next we should consider the positive traits of those the bible clearly identifies as false prohpets, wolves in sheep's clothing, false teachers etc. In short, the typology of those who harden the heart. Why would the Word of God list such characteristics if we were not intended to recognize and beware such individuals? More to come...
Verne

Was George ever the Lord's servant or even an elder?

King David was chosen by God and annointed by Samuel.  Did God choose George?  George said so, but what good is that?  Did J Vernon McGee pour oil on his head?

King David proved to be tender-hearted and humble and repentant.  George has not.  How could it be said that the Spirit of Christ dwells in George?

As for elder, didn't George appoint himself as elder?  Oh, but maybe the people in Fullerton agreed.  Well, so did the Jonestown dwellers of the Raven.  What good is that? (ok, that was a bit of an extreme analogy, but used for effect :)

Any difference between George and a mafia crime boss other than the venue?  Well, perhaps George's crime was worse in that the fraud and extortion he committed were under the guise of something spiritual.

I'm reading  "Once For All Reality" by G.G. again to try to retrace my steps.  That was one of the first booklets of G.G. that I read that, so I thought, helped me in understanding my Christian liberty.  

It is...how do I describe it...weird.  While reading it, the light of God's word, that George quotes, shines through.  But inbetween the verses of light is this strange dark cloud that is George's comments. I'm thinking of putting up a detailed analysis soon.
He starts out with a good, solid and true statement, then the very next statment has a subtle chain attached to it and it just goes downhill from there.  Weird!

Honestly, at the time when I first read it, I was so glad to learn and believe that I could once for all be set free from living a compromised Christian life.  Looking back on it, I think that God did break through, by virtue of the verses that George quoted.  It was the Word itself that gave life.  Unfortunately, George hid in this spiritual nourishment for my soul a little bit of his leaven that poisoned it.  Which I realized years later to my harm and disappointment.

Dear Verne

I have about 50 tapes of George, David and Betty's teaching.  Another person has over 150.  I don't feel like listening to them, but I have spent a few minutes here and there, and there is more than enough damning words from their mouths.  However, none of that matters at this point.

Those that have responded to the truth are out, and however confused, are not listening to George anymore.  I think that in time, most of these will be OK.

Then there are those who are going to follow this man, no matter what.  Seriously, these people would allow George to do almost anything, and it would be OK with them.  There are many cult stories that bear this out.  David Koresh, a self proclaimed, "Servant of God," did all sorts of weird things, to the point of "marrying" 12 year old daughters of his followers.  His flock stuck with him.

Honestly, I truly believe that those who continue to follow GG are in the same boat.

Also, if you study cults and abusive churches, you discover a very disturbing fact:

Most people in these groups have been in another just like it before, or will join another just like it upon being "delivered."  

That is why discussions such as this are so important.  All of the people in Waco had "deep spiritual reality" with God.  So did the people at Jonestown, also the Solar Temple, Concerned Christians, Attleboro, and many others.  This is spiritual darkness we are dealing with, and to many of us, it is painfully obvious that some of the posters here on the BB are still in the dark.  

Brent

You know Verne

Sometimes, I look at this and just say, "What for?  Why do I do this?"

Then, something like what just happens occurs.

Someone sent me a paper version of some of the "best of GA.com" including my book, all in collated, notebook form.  It took some work.  This person sent out about a dozen copies to people he cares about.  How humbling, and how wonderful.

I put up with the misinformed personal attacks, and the frustration of it all, because it is SO worth it!

Brent

Hmmm...getting off topic again, must get on topic....

I think the fact that people who haven't been around for decades came out of the woodwork when this website came up is a good indication that we will never forget our Assembly experience.  Will we still be posting?  Probably not, but I know that I will still be talking to people about this, because there aren't too many people in "normal" churches who understand what we went through.  It is super important to talk about these things, and if you just show up at some "Normal" church and start sharing about GG and brother's houses, the people there will think you were in a cult and maybe are not even saved!

Recovering from the Assembly, and keeping your faith in Christ is an open door for ministry, because there are plenty more Assemblies and George's out there just waiting to take folks money and time.  In fact, we will probably be talking with the guys from SF in 10 years, after some of them wake up from their stupor.  

I am quite confident that each of us will play some key part in some wounded pilgrim's life in the future.


Brent

listen to yourselves.  this is not about informing others - this is about fellowshipping the hatred of george.  you guys have lost objectivity.  g is very small in my life. is he in yours? you can say it's for others and that makes you sound so justified and godly and selfless.  but when i read some of the stuff several of you are living on - i can't seem to come up with anything but hatred.  you know you can get people so worked up that something awful could be perpetrated.  there are some really crazy and hurt people out there.  stating things brent like - he's got to be stopped can really get planted in some minds that could cause awful tradgety.  i know what you mean, but i just wanted to suggest that you could really inflame some of the wrong people.  i emailed verne to caution you on this...but i don't know if he did...i just think it's wise to make yourself clear when you use some of those terms.  

Affirming,
With all due respect, your experience in the Geftakys system was well over 20 years ago. Many of the people on this BB have been out only a short time, myself and family included. Our experiences are much more current than yours. Indeed your history with George and Betty is relatively brief compared with many who left only 2, 3, 18 months ago - after spending 10,15, 25 years in the system. As a matter of fact, George was not a "small" thing in many of our lives. As a former worker I would say that he was a BIG and imposing presence. He was also the catalyst for a lengthy and extremely painful estrangement in my family...there was nothing "small" about it. I thank God that G and B are now "small" in my life and right priorities are beginning to shape my life.

I think you are selling many of the people on this BB short, by continuing to insist that they are just "fellowshipping the hatred of George". You are entitled to that opinion, but in my-never-humble opinion, you haven't even begun to realize the wonderful impact the website has had on hundreds of people. I get emails every week from someone who has been delivered from the bondage of G and B because of the information that Brent and others have provided. Frankly, you sound a little sanctimonious sitting from a faraway perch, while many who have been under heavy, heavy guilt and bondage are coming out into the light and freedom. I would hope to hear how thrilled you are, but instead you keep "shooting the messenger". I just don't understand such a viewpoint. From my newly-liberated vantage point all I see is freedom, sighs of relief, and a great chorus of Hallelujahs. Yes, we do get a bit overwrought at times. Yes, sometimes it gets a little caustic.  Yes, sometimes we have a laugh at G's expense.  That's life on a BB, I think...welcome to a place where people can be honest and open about something that impacted where they lived, who they lived with,  who they married, how many kids they had, how they spent their free time...(what free time?!)...you get the idea.   ::)

Can  you not rejoice with us? I can't stop rejoicing. :D :D :D :D :D

Affirming

By the above, do you mean to say Brent should be stopped, because I could get "planted in some minds?"  or do you mean to say George should be stopped?  Your grammer and sentence structure is unclear, which makes your thoughts unclear.  That is a problem on a BB, you must use your words carefully, because the only thing we have to go on is the words we type.  Unintelligible words yield unclear and confusing thoughts.

Having said that, I have been carefully reading your posts, and I have noted several things:

You always personally insult people.  You never stop at saying that what they say is stupid, or that their words might seem hateful, no, instead you besmirch a person's character, while at the same time ignoring their words.

This is the lowest form of arguing and is a tactic used by those who refuse to listen to reason, but are only interested in their agenda, regardless of the truth.  

For example, you have never responded to one single question that someone poses to you.  People, including myself, literally beg you to answer one question, and you respond with something like the quote above.  This sort of behavior is intelectually dishonest, rude, and demonstrative of an insecure grasp of the facts,  and a weak conviction of one's beliefs.  Please notice that I didn't attack you character, but your behavior.  You certainly have not shown me, or others the same courtesy.

What you have shared with us regarding your theology, and your ideas about deeper spirituality is not only false, from a biblical sense, but is always communicated in such a way as to put down others.  What you have to share appears to me to be half-baked, cheap spirituality, when compared to the basic tenets of the Christian faith.

Although you have every bit as much right to say whatever you want here as I do, from now on you will have to defend yourself, especially with regard to your assigning false motives and evil character to people.  If you can prove it, well and good, but if you are only saying things because you feel threatened by someone's viewpoint, you will be called on it.

I am still waiting for answers to some of the questions I posed to you a number of posts ago.  You said outrageous thing---which I called you on--- and then insulted me, and skulked away like a juvenile delinquent caught spray painting a profanity.  Instead, you should have had the courage and decency to set me straight and put me in my place.  You didn't do that at all, instead you insulted me.  You have done the same with others.  I am impressed, and not in a good way.

You spout off about how this should be healing, and loving, and your own posts are the most unloving and hurtful of all!  Everyone can see this, including you, but you simply ignore your last diatribe and move on to the next.

I think perhaps we shall find out what the real reason behind your rudeness is in due time, but in the mean time, I would like to see you show me the same courtesy I am showing you.  I even apologized to you, and you still failed to answer me.  If you think ignoring someone is mature, then you are mistaken.

Finally, why did you email Verne to have him talk to me?  Can't you email me yourself?  I noticed that you shared Verne's private email here with everyone, and now you want to triangulate with Verne to get me to do something.  this is manipulation, and is a cheap behavior that everyone in the Assembly is quite familiar with.  Never talk to the person directly that you want to control, never say anything out in the open, so others can hear what you say and to whom.  No, instead go behind someone's back and try to get someone else to enforce your will on someone else.  Sondra, I'll have you know that I don't take very kindly to this sort of thing.  It is a cowardly, manipulative practice, used most often by people with guilty consciences and impure motives.  Talking to third parties about personal issues with someone else, while never going directly to the person you have problems with is at best gossip, and is most often a form of libel and slander.  I am quite familiar with this.

By the way, if you think you have "gotten my goat,"  or pushed a button, think again.  I have proved more than a match for people who display far more intellect and skill at confusing the truth than you.  You don't even have the courage to answer a critic, let alone direct contact with a person you insult.  You are a behaving like a coward,  which is a usual trait of someone with a deep moral problem, or a very guilty conscience.  The fact that people like Verne even read your posts is a testimony to his courtesy and graciousness.  On the otherhand, your speech here has been brutish, rude, and entirely lacking in substance.  You are way out of your league, both in terms of courage and intellect.  Even so,  you are welcome, just don't suppose your views will be well received, when you share them is such a shoddy, mean and ill-advised manner.

It's open season Sondra,  other's who are far more qualified than you at the art of confusion and mystical spirituality, have not fared well here.  Then, there are those who started off like you, only to learn a thing or two, and then go on to teach all of us.  In those cases, they stopped the juvenile insults, and the tired old,  "where is the love :'( :'(" and actually began to use their brains!  We all benefited from this.  

So, what is it going to be?

Prov 19:29  Judgments are prepared for scoffers,  And beatings for the backs of  fools .

Prov 10:13  Wisdom is found on the lips of him who has understanding,  But a  rod  [is] for the back of him who is devoid of understanding.  14  Wise [people] store up knowledge,  But the mouth of the foolish [is] near destruction.

And my favorite:

Prov 26:3  A whip for the horse,  A bridle for the donkey,  And a  rod  for the fool's back.  4  Do not answer a fool according to his folly,  Lest you also be like him.  5  Answer a fool according to his folly,  Lest he be wise in his own eyes.

I, for one, am not going to listen to your confused speech any longer.  To do so only gives you the false impression that your contribution is actually helpful or stimulating in some way.  So far, you have only managed to try the patience of many of us, in much the same manner that a punk teases a man twice his size and strength.  Sooner or later, the better man's decency will give place to justice and a lesson will be taught to the contemptuous punk.  I will not answer you according to your folly.

I am turning up the heat on you, Sondra.

I shouldn't have said this stuff.  Instead of deleting it, I wanted everyone to see how I erred, as an example of how NOT to post.  I am in the wrong here.

Brent Tr0ckman  March 28, 2003

Let us briefly consider the application of this passage of scripture to the current situation. Affirming's invoking it is presumably meant to have Job represent George Geftakys typically and those currently taking him to task Job's three friends. Let us examine the validity of Affirming's reasoning...

What is the scriptural record regarding the man Job?

The answer is of course given in the very first chapter:

 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil ?
Job 1:8
George Geftakys- Perfect? Hardly!
George Geftakys- Upright? Nope!
George Geftakys- Fearful? Keep Trying!
George Geftakys- Eschews Evil? Demon- Invoking Manuals??!!

The description of Job's character clearly suggests that Affirming's attempt to apply it to George Geftakys is a misapplication and results in the immediate demolition of the type if presented the way Affirming intended.
I would like to modestly suggest another way in which the type may be preserved and made valid and applicable.
This may be reasonably accomplished if we posit that not only is George Geftakys not typical of Job, but is in fact anti-typical.
 Would it then be reasonable to conclude that God's determination that what was said about Job, the type, being inapplicable, would necessarily apply to Job's anti-type?

This is the context in which I would invite us to revisit the speech of Bildad the Shuhite (tiny fellow):

  Yea, the light of the wicked shall be put out, and the spark of his fire shall not shine.
 The light shall be dark in his tabernacle, and his candle shall be put out with him.
 The steps of his strength shall be straitened, and his own counsel shall cast him down.
 For he is cast into a net by his own feet, and he walketh upon a snare.
 The gin shall take him by the heel, and the robber shall prevail against him.
 The snare is laid for him in the ground, and a trap for him in the way.
 Terrors shall make him afraid on every side, and shall drive him to his feet.
  His strength shall be hungerbitten, and destruction shall be ready at his side.
 It shall devour the strength of his skin: even the firstborn of death shall devour his strength.
  His confidence shall be rooted out of his tabernacle, and it shall bring him to the king of terrors.
  It shall dwell in his tabernacle, because it is none of his: brimstone shall be scattered upon his habitation.
  His roots shall be dried up beneath, and above shall his branch be cut off.
 His remembrance shall perish from the earth, and he shall have no name in the street.
  He shall be driven from light into darkness, and chased out of the world.
 He shall neither have son nor nephew among his people, nor any remaining in his dwellings.
 They that come after him shall be astonied at his day, as they that went before were affrighted.
 Surely such are the dwellings of the wicked, and this is the place of him that knoweth not God.
   Job 18:5 -21
Verne

brent, you're very correct.  sometimes i read my own stuff and i don't even know what i meant.  sorry.  i always did have a problem with sentence structure.  i believe i sense the Lord calling me away from this bb soon.  i'm just planting a few seeds.  i'll move out of the way so some of them can be brought home by the Holy Spirit.  He's inside and really knows how to tend His gardens.  

what i was trying to say is that when you make a statement like - "g needs to be stopped" - i know what you mean, but it concerns me with all of the crazies out there that someone might take you too literally and do something stupid.  it happens alot these days and that would be trigic.  this kind of concern years ago would just seem outlandish, but today people are killing people for any reason and justtifying actions in their own minds that a reasonable person cannot understand.

just for the record, in reading your posts...i can tell that you are a very fine person.  you misunderstand if you think i am accusing you.  i think that you aren't perfect in your heart on some issues, sometimes you seem to be defensive, sometimes bitter, self-justifying.  join the club of the human race.  i only called you on these things because as a shepherd over this work you feel called to - you are more accountable - huh?  heard that somewhere before?  i only say these things, not to hurt you, but to correct a little.  i don't know you, but i think you are, like verne, a quality person.  of course, someone will chime in "but all of God's people are precious in His sight" - yes that's true and yet there are some who lay down their lives for the sheep.  

as i mentioned i planted some seeds.  it is so very difficult to see unforgiveness and bitterness in your own life, but now i know that you and many others have at least rec'd the seed.  i don't fight against you.  i am truly with you in many of the things that you, verne, and others have said.  i don't know who g. is today - it's been about 17-18 years and i began to pull away some time before that.  i trust that God is leading you - but again i think you would not need to compromise your work at all to pull these dear hurt ones out of their unforgiveness and bitterness.  it doesn't happen in a day - this i know....but you and verne and some of those leading out in this thing will have to eventually take a long hard look at this if you want to come under and maintain the Annointing of the Lord on it.  He certainly gives us time, but He also expects progress and growth after a reasonable time.  but if, after that reasonable time He comes to check how his servants have invested and finds that they've been stubborn and lazy about issues and negligent - it doesn't go well.  one cannot say "well, but...g did this and so - and so i just got all upset and blew my temper and spread dirt and encouraged rage...etc."  there is certainly a godly balance.  

i have not defended g and i have not accused you.  everyone must stand on their own two feet before their Lord as i insist that i do and will do.  but anything less that hating the sinful behavior but loving the man will not interface with God's heart.  it does take time for wounds to heal, but i feel confident that you and many others will get there if just a few can continue to help with this.

i may have one more post in me - later - then i think i will be retiring.  this next one will be about some things that mean alot to me and might be helpful to you too brent.  by the way i was very impressed with you rundown on melchezedek (sp)--you've done some studying.

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!  Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!  Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink: Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!
Isaiah 5:20-23

Let's get serious...
Most people, unlike Affirming and some others, are genuinely troubled and dismayed by the events of the last several months. Many are rightly questioning:
 "How could a man like George Geftakys, so notoriously hard on other people, live such a gross and depraved life for so long, while parading himself as an Apostle?"
This is a legitimate inquiry. As so many have ably argued, it is attributable in no small part to a frightful failure of the Church to fulfill its mandate. We all in some way bear resonsibility for the sad legacy of this man. The senseless drivel of those who would attempt to minimize the seriousness of something like this happening in the Church of Jesus Christ should give us little comfort.
I do not however want God's people to be unduly discouraged. He after all, still sits on the throne. In my own reflections on this over the last several weeks, as I have repeatedly asked the question:
"How could he possibly not repent?"
How could he possibly not repent??!!!
 I have been frequently drawn to the record of the ninth chapter of Romans and I believe its teaching should be a source of comfort, confidence and conviction to all who read it in the light of what has been happening.
It is my own view that the absence of repentance by Geroge Gefakys for gross sins committed while in the service of the Lord God Almighty is undeniable testimony of God's judgment on him.

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy,  and whom he will he hardeneth.
Romans 9: 17-18


It is entirely inconsistent with the Divine character, that this man could ever be considered a vessel unto honor. He has shamefully disgraced the name of the Lord and with vulgar impunity defiled the sanctuary of the Most High. The only scripturally defensible explanantion for what we see is that his iniquity is not yet full. He is certainly a vessel of wrath.

 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?   Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?   What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Romans 9: 19-22

Those of you coming into this forum to defend and deny the true nature of George Geftakys and men of his ilk wll find many ready, willing and able to unsheath a sharp two-edged sword and skilfully apply it to sever you from your depraved, deluded, and deceived musings. Be prepared.
In the joy of His service,
Verne

hey verne,  i've been sick and couphing so i've been up at night as of late.  but what's your excuse? don't you ever sleep?  hey, it really sounds like you need a vacation - can you get away? why don't you and your lovely wife go somewhere fun?  i do think you are a little to close - you used to be somewhat light hearted and laugh and kid around.  maybe i'm getting it wrong, but it sounds like that really nice smile you used to have that was so full of light - got darkened.  when i read you i see in my minds eye a sad face.  is it true.  you talk about g. like he is in your closet and you can't get him out.  why is he so big in your life? let's say he truly is the monster you've made him out to be.  do you do well to let him be so big in your life?

verne, one other thing.  you make the idea of using a two edged sword sound so spiritual.  it's sondra, remember me?  i know you from way back.  you've always used that two edged sword, but i wouldn't say it was your best trait.  i propose that more often than not, amoung christians, that sword is used by many to kill, usually other christians, not to do surgery

Now that we have affirmed who is deceived (I know, bad pun...)

One of the things that I have missed being out of the assembly is someone to judge my intentions. Someone to keep my motivations in line. Wow, Affirming I am so glad you are here to check my heart and actually be able to see it! You know the will of God for my life, you are truly an assembly person.

Let's get one thing clear... I have every reason in the world to hate David G. I watched him stalk his wife. I listened to his wife when she told me of the abuse that had been happening for years.

BUT I DON'T

I WANT repentance from David, George and Tim. I want these men to be accountable. I also would like to see Betty repent and Ginger. I don't just hold it to the men.

You are very good at muddying the waters but you don't do well with the issues. Come up to the plate. Does George need to repent or not?

Heide

Verne,
 I enjoy your posts, I find it refreshing to hear the truth spoken.

Dear Brent,

Your bullish behavior towards Affirming unfortunately can not go unnoticed.  So I decided to come out of retirement.

You never cease to amaze me.  Your amazing humility.  Your love for everyone.  And your sad hypocrisy.

You do not frighten people with your big, bad posts, except maybe your children.  Your intimidation tricks need a little work.  Go talk to Mr. Geftakys.

This is the bluff post.  Where through a number of the things you said, I just can’t believe you so I am calling you out.  Let’s see how you do.

Quote #1:
“You always personally insult people. You never stop at saying that what they say is stupid, or that their words might seem hateful, no, instead you besmirch a person's character, while at the same time ignoring their words.”

Isn’t this the same thing that I said to you???  You get the Hypocrisy Award for that last post (quite prestigious!).  I can’t believe that the Brent Tr0ckman we all know and love said such a thing!  Well, I’ll be…  You need to apologize to affirming for that comment and then take the two-by-four out of your own eye.

Quote #2:
“This is the lowest form of arguing and is a tactic used by those who refuse to listen to reason, but are only interested in their agenda, regardless of the truth.”

Riiiiiight.  The truth according to Brent.  Wow.  I wonder why more people don’t come here!  I mean if you are the only one with the truth…then what are all those sad people doing without it?  Living happy lives?  Please apologize again to affirming.  You are trying to use her to score brownie points with the other readers on this forum.  You are trying to publicly ruin what she has been saying.  Unfortunately for you, it isn’t working.  You know why?  Because affirming will not sink to your level.  

Quote #3:
“This sort of behavior is intelectually dishonest, rude, and demonstrative of an insecure grasp of the facts, and a weak conviction of one's beliefs.”

Please.  She is a grown woman and has seen plenty.  Maybe you should take notes.  And apologize for saying she has weak convictions.  You know better.

Quote #4:
“Please notice that I didn't attack you character, but your behavior. You certainly have not shown me, or others the same courtesy.”

Well, you sure attacked mine.  And a dozen others who eventually stopped talking to you until you stop playing Dr. Freud.  By the way, affirming has done you a great courtesy.  She has tried to reason with your bitterness but to no avail.  She has not gone straight to the praise thread, but she has talked to you, not attacking your character, but simply observing.  Apparently, you have agreed on a few of her observations.  Maybe you should apologize and then thank her.

Quote #5:
“What you have shared with us regarding your theology, and your ideas about deeper spirituality is not only false, from a biblical sense, but is always communicated in such a way as to put down others.”

There.  You just compromised what you said before.  Apologize to affirming for saying that she’s false.  She has come to many conclusions that differ from yours.  Get a hold of yourself, Brent.  God loves her as much as He loves you.  And how do you know you aren’t wrong?  Big fonts don’t prove your point.  They are just a cry for help.

Quote #6:
“What you have to share appears to me to be half-baked, cheap spirituality, when compared to the basic tenets of the Christian faith.”

Please apologize to affirming again.  Your sad display of intimidation needs to be fine-tuned.  Eat your humble pie in peace.  Your circular reasoning might work at your church, but not here.

Quote #7:
“If you can prove it, well and good, but if you are only saying things because you feel threatened by someone's viewpoint, you will be called on it.”

Say that again?  Hmmm…  I am calling you on it.  I think that affirming’s and my posts worry you.  That is why you write such things.

Quote #8:
“You said outrageous thing---which I called you on--- and then insulted me, and skulked away like a juvenile delinquent caught spray painting a profanity.”

Please apologize to affirming for that childish remark.  It was not funny.  It was only you trying to score brownie points with the other people here.  I really doubt affirming is one to use profanity, but after talking to someone with your logic, some might find it grounds for such language.

Quote #9:
“Instead, you should have had the courage and decency to set me straight and put me in my place.

She did, Inspector.  You just had your hands over your ears.  
 
Quote #10:
“You didn't do that at all, instead you insulted me. You have done the same with others. I am impressed, and not in a good way.”

No, she didn’t.  She told you something that you didn’t want to hear.  So is that an insult?  If exhortation is an insult, then you have an issue to take care of.  I can guarantee that about six people will quote that last sentence and say, “That’s EXACTLY how it was in the assembly!  I wish that Luke would stop defending assembly ways!”  Give it a break, folks.  It’s getting overdone.

Quote #11:
“You spout off about how this should be healing, and loving, and your own posts are the most unloving and hurtful of all!”

Your hypocrisy is the most hurtful of all.  Please apologize for reading affirming’s posts the wrong way and then using them to score points on this forum.

Quote #12:
“I think perhaps we shall find out what the real reason behind your rudeness is in due time, but in the mean time, I would like to see you show me the same courtesy I am showing you.”

---Said the Great Rude One.  

She showed you a great courtesy.  YOU were quite rude to her for daring to cross you.  We know how you hate that.

Quote #13:
“I even apologized to you, and you still failed to answer me. If you think ignoring someone is mature, then you are mistaken.”

It seems you have quite a deal more to apologize for.  Affirming has shown great maturity for not entering into petty arguments with you.  Are you taking notes?

Quote #14:
“No, instead go behind someone's back and try to get someone else to enforce your will on someone else. Sondra, I'll have you know that I don't take very kindly to this sort of thing. It is a cowardly, manipulative practice, used most often by people with guilty consciences and impure motives.”

Riiiiiight.  So you are saying that you have never done this?  So you have never discouraged anyone from agreeing with the enemy?  I am calling your bluff.  Hopefully, you can come to the answer on your own.  Then maybe you can apologize to the group for lying and showing hypocritical behavior.  And don’t call her a coward.  Verne decided to use his favorite weapon against her, and suddenly you jump on her case for letting it known.  It’s called abuse.  You didn’t get mad at that.  You just told affirming to handle her own problems.  Did you tell that to Judy or Rachel????

Quote #15:
“I am quite familiar with this.”

We know you are.  So please stop doing it.

Quote #16:
“I have proved more than a match for people who display far more intellect and skill at confusing the truth than you.”

I am calling your bluff.  Most intellectuals could probably eat you alive.  I’d rather not.  I heard you taste kind of bitter.

Quote #17:
“You don't even have the courage to answer a critic, let alone direct contact with a person you insult.”

WHAT DO YOU THINK SHE HAS BEEN DOING??!!  Silly fellow.

Quote #18:
“You are a behaving like a coward, which is a usual trait of someone with a deep moral problem, or a very guilty conscience.”

Please apologize to affirming for calling her a coward.  She has been very brave in standing up to you.  Most people would stop talking to you until you stop playing the psychologist.  I have a prescription for you: Go sailing and read your Bible (not necessarily in that order).

Quote #19:
“The fact that people like Verne even read your posts is a testimony to his courtesy and graciousness.”

Verne has been gracious?  I think he’s been taking one too many lessons from you.

To be continued...

Continued from previous post...

Quote #20:
“On the otherhand, your speech here has been brutish, rude, and entirely lacking in substance.”

On the otherhand, you absolutely have no grounds to talk.  So please stop.  Too many are drowning in your shallow behavior.

Quote #21:
“You are way out of your league, both in terms of courage and intellect.”

The humbleness here is killing me.  Brent, stop flattering yourself.  As I said before, in most intellectual discussions, you would fall short.  You have yet to prove your powerful intelligence.  Please apologize to affirming for acting like you’re her superior.  It’s not healthy.  Or wise.  Go back to defending your bitterness.  

Quote #22:
“Even so, you are welcome, just don't suppose your views will be well received, when you share them is such a shoddy, mean and ill-advised manner.”

Affirming didn’t start writing to be well-received.  She had a view point and wanted to share it.  Ill-advised?  From you…  I advise her to keep writing.  But if no one will listen, then she wasn’t a flash in the pan, but a beacon of wisdom.  That you and your powerful “intellect” tried to tear down.  It didn’t work.

Quote #23:
“It's open season Sondra, other's who are far more qualified than you at the art of confusion and mystical spirituality, have not fared well here.”

Open season on Sondra.  Grab your hunting permits!!  We’re gonna catch one!!  Others more qualified at the art of confusion and mystical spirituality left along time ago.  You know why, Brent?  Because there work is done and they have been quite successful with your “intellect.”

Quote #24:
“In those cases, they stopped the juvenile insults, and the tired old, "where is the love " and actually began to use their brains!”

You sure know how to distinguish between the juvenile insults and exhortation.  Yeah, those that promote the “tired, old ‘where is the love’ ”, should probably go somewhere.  It doesn’t work here.  Too consumed with bitterness and anger.  Or they should throw out their hearts and keep their brains.  Riiiiiiight.

Quote #25:
“To do so only gives you the false impression that your contribution is actually helpful or stimulating in some way.”

I tried this trick.  It didn’t work.  You are still posting.  

Quote #26:
“So far, you have only managed to try the patience of many of us, in much the same manner that a punk teases a man twice his size and strength.”

I liken affirming to a big dragon trying to fight off a pack of coyotes, who just can’t stand getting their egos burned.  God forbid she tries your patience!!  You seem to have so much of it, Mr. Tr0ckman.

Quote #27:
 “Sooner or later, the better man's decency will give place to justice and a lesson will be taught to the contemptuous punk.”

Again, stop flattering yourself, Brent.  Your humility is incredible.  It prepares me for like-minded people out in this dark world.  You need a lesson in humility.  Maybe affirming can be “decent” enough to teach you.  While you’re at it, apologize to her for calling her a punk.  You are living in a fantasy, Brent.  

Quote #28:
“I will not answer you according to your folly.”

The only folly here is your hypocrisy and fantasizing about your amazing intellect.

Quote #29:
“I am turning up the heat on you, Sondra.”

No one is frightened, Brent.  Work on your intimidation tactics.  By the way, in the past, you’ve been known to be all gas, no flame.  

Oh, and by the way, Brent.  King David repented after he got caught.  You criticized the elders and brothers for doing that.  Apologizing after they got "caught."  

Wow Luke

There are two things I wish to respond to:

Who are the dozen or so people who won't talk to me anymore?  You can tell me in an email or PM, because if there are a dozen such people, they probably want to remain anonymous.  

Also this:

"No one is frightened, Brent.  Work on your intimidation tactics.  By the way, in the past, you’ve been known to be all gas, no flame.  

Oh, and by the way, Brent.  King David repented after he got caught.  You criticized the elders and brothers for doing that.  Apologizing after they got "caught."  ""

First of all,  can you name one instance where I have been gas and all flame?  Even if it is embarrassing, please share it here with all of us.  Use a real life example, expose my gassiness.  It is one thing to call a person "all gas, no flame,"  it is quite another to back it up with fact.

I am guilty of one thing.  I should know better than to say some of the things I did, knowing that it would produce a response like yours.  That is stirring up strife, and no matter what might be behind my post to Sondra, it was the wrong thing to do in light of the present atmosphere on the forum.  It is wrong to stir up strife, and serves no useful purpose.  I should have waited for a better time before saying what I said.

One thing I have to say, Luke.  I really don't agree with much of what you say,  but I do admire you courage.  In a few years, as you grow up and mature (not at all an insult, you WILL grow up and mature)  your courage will serve you and your family well.

Some of you ideas may have to change, but your courage is good.

Brent

Also,

Thanks for your last post Affirming.

Dear Andrea, Affirming, Luke, Verne, Mark, Arthur and eveyone else:


You are correct, Andrea.  In the past I have been quick to apologize when needed.  God forbid that this practice becomes something I only used to do in the past.  May it never be.

Let me be candid, and you can all straighten me out.  

The way I see it, Affirming (Sondra) began this by insulting me.  I did not immediately respond like I did in my last post, but she not only ignored what I was saying, but continued with personal attacks.  I am not the only one that noticed this.

So, my mind tells me this:

She is an older Christian woman, who should not have said the things she did.  After being patient, I could take no more and spoke out in anger against what I saw as foolishness.  The things I said were true, and I backed them up with her own words. If anything, she should apologize to me! She started it.  Her posts may have been candid, but they were rude. This is what my mind tells me.

---

However, my conscience is saying something different.

I should not have done what I did.  In the past, I advised many others who were frustrated with rude posters to be silent and ignore them.  On some of the most flaming posts from the past, you will find that my name is not on them, I stayed above the fray.  In this case, I not only failed to follow my own advice, but I went too far and said things that I should not have said.

Sondra, I do apologize to you for my last post.  I should never have uttered those things.  I am going to go back and strike through the words I wrote and you have my word that I will never treat you like that again.  I was wrong, and ask for you to forgive me.

Brent Tr0ckman

Affirming

By the above, do you mean to say Brent should be stopped, because I could get "planted in some minds?"  or do you mean to say George should be stopped?  Your grammer and sentence structure is unclear, which makes your thoughts unclear.  That is a problem on a BB, you must use your words carefully, because the only thing we have to go on is the words we type.  Unintelligible words yield unclear and confusing thoughts.

Having said that, I have been carefully reading your posts, and I have noted several things:

You always personally insult people.  You never stop at saying that what they say is stupid, or that their words might seem hateful, no, instead you besmirch a person's character, while at the same time ignoring their words.

This is the lowest form of arguing and is a tactic used by those who refuse to listen to reason, but are only interested in their agenda, regardless of the truth.  

For example, you have never responded to one single question that someone poses to you.  People, including myself, literally beg you to answer one question, and you respond with something like the quote above.  This sort of behavior is intelectually dishonest, rude, and demonstrative of an insecure grasp of the facts,  and a weak conviction of one's beliefs.  Please notice that I didn't attack you character, but your behavior.  You certainly have not shown me, or others the same courtesy.

What you have shared with us regarding your theology, and your ideas about deeper spirituality is not only false, from a biblical sense, but is always communicated in such a way as to put down others.  What you have to share appears to me to be half-baked, cheap spirituality, when compared to the basic tenets of the Christian faith.

Although you have every bit as much right to say whatever you want here as I do, from now on you will have to defend yourself, especially with regard to your assigning false motives and evil character to people.  If you can prove it, well and good, but if you are only saying things because you feel threatened by someone's viewpoint, you will be called on it.

I am still waiting for answers to some of the questions I posed to you a number of posts ago.  You said outrageous thing---which I called you on--- and then insulted me, and skulked away like a juvenile delinquent caught spray painting a profanity.  Instead, you should have had the courage and decency to set me straight and put me in my place.  You didn't do that at all, instead you insulted me.  You have done the same with others.  I am impressed, and not in a good way.

You spout off about how this should be healing, and loving, and your own posts are the most unloving and hurtful of all!  Everyone can see this, including you, but you simply ignore your last diatribe and move on to the next.

I think perhaps we shall find out what the real reason behind your rudeness is in due time, but in the mean time, I would like to see you show me the same courtesy I am showing you.  I even apologized to you, and you still failed to answer me.  If you think ignoring someone is mature, then you are mistaken.

Finally, why did you email Verne to have him talk to me?  Can't you email me yourself?  I noticed that you shared Verne's private email here with everyone, and now you want to triangulate with Verne to get me to do something.  this is manipulation, and is a cheap behavior that everyone in the Assembly is quite familiar with.  Never talk to the person directly that you want to control, never say anything out in the open, so others can hear what you say and to whom.  No, instead go behind someone's back and try to get someone else to enforce your will on someone else.  Sondra, I'll have you know that I don't take very kindly to this sort of thing.  It is a cowardly, manipulative practice, used most often by people with guilty consciences and impure motives.  Talking to third parties about personal issues with someone else, while never going directly to the person you have problems with is at best gossip, and is most often a form of libel and slander.  I am quite familiar with this.

By the way, if you think you have "gotten my goat,"  or pushed a button, think again.  I have proved more than a match for people who display far more intellect and skill at confusing the truth than you.  You don't even have the courage to answer a critic, let alone direct contact with a person you insult.  You are a behaving like a coward,  which is a usual trait of someone with a deep moral problem, or a very guilty conscience.  The fact that people like Verne even read your posts is a testimony to his courtesy and graciousness.  On the otherhand, your speech here has been brutish, rude, and entirely lacking in substance.  You are way out of your league, both in terms of courage and intellect.  Even so,  you are welcome, just don't suppose your views will be well received, when you share them is such a shoddy, mean and ill-advised manner.

It's open season Sondra,  other's who are far more qualified than you at the art of confusion and mystical spirituality, have not fared well here.  Then, there are those who started off like you, only to learn a thing or two, and then go on to teach all of us.  In those cases, they stopped the juvenile insults, and the tired old,  "where is the love :'( :'(" and actually began to use their brains!  We all benefited from this.  

So, what is it going to be?

Prov 19:29  Judgments are prepared for scoffers,  And beatings for the backs of  fools .

Prov 10:13  Wisdom is found on the lips of him who has understanding,  But a  rod  [is] for the back of him who is devoid of understanding.  14  Wise [people] store up knowledge,  But the mouth of the foolish [is] near destruction.

And my favorite:

Prov 26:3  A whip for the horse,  A bridle for the donkey,  And a  rod  for the fool's back.  4  Do not answer a fool according to his folly,  Lest you also be like him.  5  Answer a fool according to his folly,  Lest he be wise in his own eyes.

I, for one, am not going to listen to your confused speech any longer.  To do so only gives you the false impression that your contribution is actually helpful or stimulating in some way.  So far, you have only managed to try the patience of many of us, in much the same manner that a punk teases a man twice his size and strength.  Sooner or later, the better man's decency will give place to justice and a lesson will be taught to the contemptuous punk.  I will not answer you according to your folly.

I am turning up the heat on you, Sondra.

I shouldn't have said this stuff.  Instead of deleting it, I wanted everyone to see how I erred, as an example of how NOT to post.  I am in the wrong here.

Brent Tr0ckman  March 28, 2003

So when we share the gospel with someone, THIS is an example of what God wants us to be???????  Why would anyone become a Christian after reading this BB????  And THIS is what I am??????

*Ooooh, you're so wonderful...you started a website that made some things happen!  Now you're the greatest thing since sliced bread!*

What a crock.

The circus continues...with the ringmaster attempting to bring down anyone who crosses him...unbelievable.

Fan

P.S.  Actually, who am I kidding???  That's what Mr. Geftakys did...I shouldn't be surprised...Assembly Part II...

Verne,

You want to be found faithful?  That's absolutely wonderful!!!!  When are you gonna' put a little effort in achieving that?  Happy trails!!!  Hope everything goes well for you!!!  Just a little helpful encouragement...Have a great day!!! ;D ;D ;D

only those who learn to subordinate their intellect to the life in the spirit will find nourishment.  otherwise we are as ravenous, hungry dogs - living on something that does not sustain life.  

when one studies the difference between intellect and godly wisdom (which if from above - the higher life in Christ) we find that wisdom is born of God - of incorruptable seed and is born out of LOVE (God's).  

those who do not subordinate their intellect (reasoning)also do not have control over their passions and lusts.  perhaps they are not sleeping around, but they are inflamed with lack of control over their temper and usually manifests in the flow of a dirty stream of pumped up, hurtful rhetoric.  

i will also say - i am not calling anyone a dog.  i feel the need to qualify my statements now - anticipating some of the defensiveness that most commonly insues.  i will admitt that i have been this kind of dog.  i know this kind of starvation that has, mainly in the past, drove me to be ravenous.  

the intellect does not nourish unless it is held in subordination to LOVE on the spirit side of our life.
 
Rom 8:2-4
2   For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3   For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4   That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.  (KJV)

2 Cor 3:6   Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.  (KJV)

i do again apologize that i do not answer pointed questions that have been posed, but i often feel the greater urgency to stop the bleeding from an artery and let the splinter in the finger set for a little while.

the annointing is at stake here.  some are so quick to say that certain ones have, as saul, lost their annointing and didn't even know it.  it is truly a great danger.  those who say raca to a brother are truly putting themselves in danger of turn-over to  judgement by heavenly administrators.  i've been there too and believe me when i tell you that the word is true when it says that you don't get out right away just because you cry "uncle"  saul got away with quite alot, but lo and behold, he kept living in a spirit of murder until he got turned over to the judge.

how do we condemn others so vehemently and do the same things ourselves - i've done my share of this also.  it never ceases to amaze me how the Lord has allowed the same thing to manifest in my life that i was unreasonably condemning in the lives of other.  be careful, unless you have a melchezedek annointing, never-changing as known in Christ, you can be demoted and lose your annointing.

no, in answer to your question "whoever" - no i don't think i have this melchezedek preisthood annointing, and anybody who does would not say anyway.   no i'm not saying i think g. has.  i just read my bible and see that there are still vistas to attain to that are truly incredible.  it makes this place full of limitations seem like a place we could be leaving as we grow into where our Lord dwells - into a place of limitlessness and boundlessness in the spirit.
even these are subject to judgement by the grace of God and they cannot be restored through repentence as others are, but only have to suffer the fire of judgement to bring them around and purify.  

but brethren, at all costs, don't lose the annointing if you enjoy one.  how can you help anyone if you do.

Dear Verne and all,
I know for a fact that  Paul and Luke have strong opinions, a sense of the absurd, and finely developed senses of humor...something I have personally experienced and enjoyed with Luke, in particular. Frankly, I take offense that anyone here would extend condolences to their parents. That sounds extremely condescending. Believe me, it is very easy to be critical of young people (and their parentage) when your own children are small and completely under your control. When your children begin to think for themselves and begin their journey into adult life albeit sometimes tripping and stumbling is when you will look back at your own short-sighted judgments of others and cringe. My own experience bears this out.  

In addition this BB has the unfortunate quality of making people who post seem fairly one-dimensional and I think that is one of the problems. Sarcasm, humor, and witty remarks lose something without facial expression, tone of voice, eye contact.  I am not saying that I agree with every word Paul or Luke have written or the tone in which it has been written, but do any of us agree with anyone here 100%?
I know we all have better things to do than read the jabs and jibes that have been prevalent on this thread. I would like to think that everyone here has enough maturity (whether young or old) to maintain some semblance of dignity and respect for the opinions of others without pulling out the swords.

It is much more helpful when we stick to issues and stop with the personal attacks and that does apply to young and old. If you must at the very least use IM so the rest of us don't have to wade through the barbs.
 :-[

This morning I decided that I needed to start from the beginning and read through as to what this iniatially(sp) started at and where it seems to be going. The main thread that I see (aside from let's attack Brent)  is now that you've said your peace, move on. That is what I see from both Luke and Affirming.

Affirming, in one of your posts on March 25 you stated that I had fought a good fight (probably) and now it was time to go home. I was a good soldier. I know something about being a good soldier, I joined the USMC in 1990 and I learned how to be a good soldier. One thing we did get taught in the Marine Corps is that you never leave behind a fellow soldier. Maybe I am missing your point. Some of my friends are still in the assembly. My best friend that I grew up with since 6th grade is still involved with the Sacramento assembly. Do I just leave and go on my merry way? I think you and I have an issue as to what failthful means. When all of the assemblies are gone, I will go home and move on. When His people are free. Now I understand that Fullerton will be reuniting. My interest does not lie with them. They are making a choice to follow sin. My interests lie (sp) with some of the little sheep who haven't heard. Who don't have internet access.

Character slander, you first Affirming! Your March 25 post slewed mine. I didn't attack you under the belt but you did accuse me. My motivations are not visible to your eyes. If I am angry or bitter, does it make what I have to say any less viable?

I almost bought into what you were saying Luke and Affirming, about being soft and bringing people in lovingly. I was starting to think maybe I am being to tough and all the times in the assembly when I thought I was right at any cost. But Affirming, you taught me something that I had forgotten, assembly ways.

Luke, I hope you don't quit posting, I have enormous respect for you because as much as you endure on here at least you have courage to do it in your own name.

I believe we all have assembly doctrine in our heads and until it comes out our mouths or someone else points it out to us we will continue. Thank you Brent, you said something the other day on here that made me remember what I was taught in the assembly and how incorrect it was!

General question: How deceived are you? Do you believe that George was excommunicated due to sin or not?

Heide

Hi Everyone! :)
  Impossible to keep up with all the conversation on this thread!  I spent a couple of hours last night just reading the posts!
  If anyone remembers, I started a little serial post re. "the Gospel; what is it", as I felt much of the problem re. "Who is Deceived", was an ignorance of basic Biblical teaching.  Thank you Arthur for your response.  The Scripture was very helpful in the understanding of my point. :)
  I would like to continue my thought by sharing an example of how we can continue in Assembly deception by not understanding how God communicates His truth to us.
  I was talking with a Bro. who had stepped down as a leader in the Assembly, but was seeking to see a new work raised up in place of the former Assembly.  He told me that he had repented of the past, and was trusting God would lead the group into a new future.  I asked him, "repented of what, and how would God lead them?"  Re. repentance, he mentioned authoritarian leadership, but that he was not so bad as the Fullerton Assembly. Re. God's leading, he felt that the Holy Spirit would guide them in the future.  I suggested he step away from teaching and seek instruction for a period of time; he could not accept this.  "Did I not believe that God could teach Him, and do a new work in their midst?"
  It is a false supposition to equate being instructed with the willing attitude for, "whatever God wants".  Cults use just such a method to support the concept that they are the one true church, for, they contend that they are sincere in their pursuit.  Mormons will suggest those who have doubts re. the Book of Mormon only pray and ask if the book is indeed of God.  Many Mormons base their faith on the experience they have had when taking this advice.  Many Mormons are very nice, sincere, hard working, and honest people; but they are decieved!  It is dangerous to seek an inner confirmation of the leading of God for one's decisions as this opens one to a plethora of possible deception. (please read: "Decision Making and The Will of God" by Gary Friesan, published by Multnomah press.)
  The Bro. above needs to have his mind renewed by the Word of God.  The Holy Spirit instructs in words to the mind and these form into a clear system of understanding ("pattern of sound doctrine"). Sound doctrine leads to sound practice, and vice versa.  He was previously indoctrinated into the Assembly system of understanding, which included a faulty means of interpretating scripture.  It takes time to unlearn these things and to learn a new way of thinking about Scripture.  There is nothing wrong with humbly accepting the process of the renewal of the mind.  To reject such an entreaty is a sign of pride, which the Lord resists and such an attitude smacks of the present evil mindset of the creator of the Assembly system, GG.
  Was Paul bitter and consumed with hatred because he publically rebuked Peter for not "walking in the Grace of God"?  The answer is of course not, and neither are those on this BB when they seek to entreat those in an attempt to correct their thinking and practice re. the Gospel of grace.
My next post will attempt to spell out Pauls concern and why he was so strident in his desire to pursue it with Peter and the Galatians.  It is very appropriate to our discussion re. the Assembly in our attempt to discern, "who is deceived?"
                          God Bless,  Mark

heide,

you know every time i read you - my heart just really feels for you.  i hear myself in your cries for your friends.  i, too,  left people behind.  i could not do a thing.  many of us left in a wave over a few years.  many of us have stayed in touch over these many years and have grown up together - experienceing post assy stress.  i love and care about you my sister and do not at all degrade or disrespect you.  you are a champion - you graduated.  now the only coarse is to find out God's strategy for helping others.

from my experience we must enter into the sweetness and the power of our Lord.  a spiritual battle is the only one that will deliver them.  i'm not saying "shut up"  all i have been saying is speak the truth in love.  and i've been saying that to continue to harp one man's character or lack thereof tends to pull everyone out of faith into reasoning and analysis - which has no power.

do not be mistaken, there are many more of us who have already left the assy and for good cause - threw it away like an old menstal cloth than there are of you who have just left.  and the ones i've spoken with are very concerned and contemplating how to help - but find it difficult to even come into the fray where there is such volitility.

Affirming,

A soldier who quits in the midst of the battle because he may think his battle his done usually gets a courtmartial. I have not rec'd my marching orders to move on. Believe me I ask everyday. I would like nothing more than to think these men have repented and all is well but the truth is they have not. The bottom line is that God will get them if they don't repent but does that help the families now? Most of the families want people to start talking, get this stuff out in the open. Only until the information is out in the light can we put it behind us. This ministry ripped apart families. I can attest to that in SLO. Perhaps your assembly history is different than ours, we had Gavid G to contend with.

How would you like me to handle this? You say speak out of love? Do you have a plan? I would like to hear it. Have I attacked George's character? If it is a sinly character.. YES.

In one of your previous posts you said that "I was hurt, they are bad because they hurt me.." Let's go one step further. They came in as servants, shepherds but they were wolves in sheeps clothing. They took instead of giving, they ripped apart instead of healing. They drove the little sheep over briars and rocks until the sheep were bloody and crippled. ALL in the name of George and this ministry.

You still avoid my question, was George excommunicated due to his sin or not? Why did you leave?

Heide

Mark,
Thanks for your insight.  This is exactly the direction we've (Arlene & I) been getting in the Bible church we've been attending frequently in recent weeks.  This church emphasizes simply receiving the clear words of Scripture without trying to read mystically into it, i.e., in assembly speak "getting the Lord's mind" or "getting peace about it".

As I see it, for practical purposes, that was walking by feelings rather than by faith.  I believe that this area, more than any other, is at the root of the error of "assembly" doctrine.  It personally and directly affects every single one of us who were/are involved.  In contrast, the problems with specific sin by George/David/etc. are not be personal to us all.  This also provides an explanation why those more deeply indoctrinated/committed have a much harder time pulling away and seeing their need.

Consequently, while some, such as Bluejay, David M., Eulaha, etc. undoubtedly have legitimate gripes, I think it's far more profitable to "harp" on issues involving perspective toward God and His Word than issues of the evil of men.  It is that area where the real damage has occurred and where healing needs to take place.

Hi Tim! :)
  I think your comments are correct re. the Assembly and the way they sought to convey "God's will" to the members.
   When discovery of God's will is approached through inner promptings one is open to deception and to being manipulated by those who claim to have special insight ("God showed me").
   Discovery of God's will should be liberating and blessed, for that is the revealed intention of the Gospel.  God's will is not to curse or control us, but to raise us up in his salvation.
  This is why we must contend earnestly for the truth of the Gospel, as it is our Magna Charta, Declaration of Independence, and our Bill of Rights!
   More later------------   God Bless,  Mark

Dear Verne,

Riiiiiight.  But thanks anyway.   ;D

Your nice, little jabs are always a warm welcome to everyone on this site.  Wait, didn't Paul and I say something to you before???  Or were you away?

Your abusive behavior is quite becoming of a man at your age.   ;D

But keep up the good work.  You have a part to play in this musical.

 



     

Dear Verne,

He who smelt it, dealt it.   ;D

Also, as your secretary, I should inform you of everyone who phoned.  Maturity called twice, but you weren't in.  Next time, I'll take a message.

Hell0o Everyone!

Thank you all for your gracious acceptance of my apology for my last few posts.

I came to the conclusion last night that I my contribution here is no longer edifying for the following reasons:

• I believe that God speaks to us in plain words, that must be understood with our minds first.  This is the work of the Holy Spirit
• I believe that people in the Assembly were quite deceived
• I believe that I learned a false gospel under George Geftakys
• I have concluded that the grace that was flowing to open people's eyes through this website has decreased dramatically
• The people I am trying to help are not being helped, and some have suggested that I am the problem, and the leader of a group of problems
• I have a nature and personality that is quite passionate.  I am not able to stand by and listen to things that I consider un-biblical, in a dangerous sense.  Therefore, I must speak out.  However, if something is causing me to "lose my annointing" as Affirming posted, my continued presence here is not healthy for anyone, including me

For these reasons, and a few others, I am going to take six weeks off the BB, in order to decide if I will do this anymore.  You see, I really do love all of you, and even though I may never meet some of you until we stand before the throne,  I identify with you as former followers of George Geftakys.  That is why this website had such stunning statistics, because all of us share a unique experience, that of having been in the Assembly.  

I don't want to irritate, confuse, or discourage anyone.  I only want some of you to see clearly, which I am sad to say, you do not.  Do not suppose I am saying this in a proud manner, as if I see, and no one else can.  No,  I am saying this as one who was formerly blind, even as some of you.  Hundreds of people agree with me in this respect, including most of the evangelical Christian world.  In spite of this,  if my message is blocked due to my pride, arrogance, lack of higher life, lack of love, or any other thing, I have become an ineffective servant.  Rather than hang on and make a mess of things, I think it best to step aside and let others' gifts come to the forefront.

Acts 18:6  But when they opposed him and blasphemed, he shook [his] garments and said to them, "Your blood [be] upon your [own] heads; I [am] clean. From now on I will go to the  Gentiles ."

You are welcome to deride me for including this verse at the end of my last post.  If I am losing my grip, and am become blind with pride, as has been suggested by 2 or 3---and perhaps as many as a dozen, according to one person---I need to hear from all of you what I have done wrong, in order that I do not continue.  I will check back over the next few days to make sure that I read all of your responses.  Please, no praise here, there is already a thread for that.

Brent

heide,  i was very good friends with david and judy.  they took me under their wing and were very sweet to me when i was going to terrible times.  i was at their house and hung out with judy when rachel was born. what a little cutie.  i only know what i've heard and read and i don't doubt that stuff is true, but what are you going to do to make people repent?  how do you do that and stay out of strife in your own heart?  aren't we better off leaving worry which is a part of our natural man that is not turning ALL THINGS over to God in full trust.  now, wait just a minute ok?  this is usually where people get wild and crazy on me.  i'm not leaving it as a black and white thing here.  "just trust God and let everything else take it's course, blah, blah, blah."  no, no but the first thing that has to be done is to put away worry and enter into His presence in trust and joy.... not just a little trust, but great confidence.

then i do believe it is very, very important to be as bold and fearless as a lion.  if you could know me and how i operate on a daily basis - you might think me to be awful in terms of my assertiveness in my business and my areas of stewardship.  if i hear the Lord on a thing, watch out---but i do not get out of LOVE in the spirit.  as a discipline i know the price i pay for getting out there in my own thoughts and attitude, defending myself, relating everything to myself, protecting people and things because they are my friends, my stuff, my business.  i try to use discipline on myself to open my grip on things, dispossess them and make sure i know that all that i have including myself belongs to my Lord.

i find that in that kind of trust and confidence (no worries allowed) God moves....usually much slower than i would like, but guess what He's not in a hurry and He really let's people have free agency.  

when lazurus was dying and his sisters were going nuts that the Lord wasn't coming to heal him.  it says, He waited.  that drove me crazy that He didn't come immediately and act.  but now i know that His priority is to let us come to an end of our own energy so that we will give up and learn to rely on Him.  now i try to do that first and i find there's great power in turning to Him early.  then we can hear His voice, if we will get quiet.  now wait a minute again - i'm anticipating being misunderstood - i don't imply verbal quietness as in keeping the wrongs secret.  i'm speaking of inner life quietness...no worries, no fear, no strife, subordinating reasoning and analyzation of things.  i could go on and on...but see how it starts getting quiet in the heart...

He says "let not your hearts be troubled"  heide, these are very precious things to me.  i've had to lose alot of blood to learn some of these secrets.  God has ways of doing things if we can learn to get deep into Him.  

in the assy we are used to not having prayer answered for example.  one year, long after i left the assy, i realized there were believers who had their prayers answered in miracles and fast.  i really got upset with the Lord on it.  then He began to teach me that i will never get big and fast answers to my prayers.  He intimated to me that unless i could hear Him that He could not hear me because prayer is a symotaneous event.  it's not like verbal conversation.  in the spirit realm we're speaking together. i started studying how to hear His voice as spoken in Hebrews for example.  i don't know if i've helped you, but these are things that i live on.  my life has gone from utter despair to joy.  

again, i do care very much about your breaking heart and i will stand for you and your friends in prayer.  will you kind of tell me who i need to pray for?  not names just give some hints like 2 young families, 2 single guys, etc. just the ones that are upon your heart...or however you want to do it.  it would help me to bring them before the Lord and heaven.

heide,

"You still avoid my question, was George excommunicated due to his sin or not? Why did you leave?"

i just realized i didn't answer two of your questions that you've asked twice.  i haven't answered quite afew because i've been sick with bronchitis for about 3 weeks now and haven't had alot of energy.  not that i have alot to work with otherwise, but part of my problem as of late has been the medication i've been on makes me a little grogy and spacey.  like i said - i'm not all that sharp to begin with.

i did not intensionally avoid answering your question.  was g. ex'd due to his sin or not?  i don't know.  i haven't been envolved in any of the assy gov't stuff - but have been filled in by some friends on some things.  this is the best i can do i'm afraid with that question.  i will tell you this that i have seen enough of the sinner in me that i would not be shocked if you told me that a man fell into sin - if he was beating the sheep... if he was condemning behavior of other people's children with cruelty and excusing and indulging his son's.  as i have mentioned i have condemned others and criticized others and turn around and fall flat on my face.  i have destoyed the annoiinting in my life because of pride, lack of compassion and many other things that i have alluded to.  once we lose the annointing of His presence - we lose grace and sin insues.  but is a merciful God if and when we will turn and change.  i do not think groveling is necessary, but we must get things right with God and show fruit of repentence.  i know that some get down and grovel...but the main thing is that it has to be visible that there is a difference and that there is an openness toward suggestions of the brethren.  g. will need to not stand aloof....but neither should people chew him to death if he is trying to make things right.  

why did i leave?  i am needing to lay down, but i would really like to answer you.  could i come back tomorrow?

                                             sondra (quinlan) jamison
 

It seems to me that it took the shock of the personal sins of the Geftakys family-esp. George-to awaken many to the other problems such as the doctrine, etc.
 Real damage HAS occurred at the psychological level and healing DOES need to take place there. I don't think that it is either/or but both and. Perhaps Mr. Souther cd. expand on it a little as he has time.

Verne,

Teenagers are young adults, not little kids.  Your kids must be younger.  I agree with Pat(Re: Robinson kids).  I suggest that you don't fight, but humor them and win them with kindness.  You tend to get adamant(sound familiar).
I should know about teens as I tease mine that I ought to be awarded an honorary lawyer's degree.

a sister in the Lord

Dear Affirming: (Sondra)
  I have tried to patiently understand your position and to discuss the problems I have with your understanding of salvation and the Christian life, but your last couple of posts have contained serious error that must be directly answered.
  I realize that you have been sick, and possibly the medication is causing your communication to be confused, but I fear lest someone reading here may fall victim to very false and dangerous ideas that you have presented.
  I think the best way to proceed would be to ask you what do you believe the Gospel is?  Your latest rendition of the Christian life sounds more like the I Ching, or the Tibetan book of the Dead than Christian!  We do not earn the presence of God through controlling our negative emotions by means of meditation and prayer.  This kind of mystical religious performance theology is contra grace and contra Gospel!  You might as well join a Budhist monastery and start your prayer wheels rolling as pursue this false path that you purport.
   I strive to be civil in my posts, but such blatant false teaching must be clearly exposed and rejected.  There is a special danger because there are many ex-assembly folks here who were brought up in a false understanding of the Christian life and who need to clearly understand what it means to walk in grace.
  The Christian life continues as it began; it is a gift based relationship, not a performance based relationship.  The false merit system can take many different forms and Sondra has presented one such form.  The concept that we must transform our own inner reality in order to earn and keep God's Spirit is to be utterly rejected!  Paul asked the Galatians, "After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?"  This human effort can be by exterior effort or by an interior effort, but both are serious departures from true life in Christ.
  What of rewards Mark?  Are you saying that I can just do whatever I want now?  Am I to passively allow sin to take over in my life?  These were also the concerns of those who opposed the grace of God in truth in Paul's time and it shows a lack of appreciation for what we have right now in our salvation.
   "Sanctification comes from just taking our justification seriously".  In my opinion, the best way to approach understanding the issue of rewards is to understand what it means that I have been saved by grace.
   What does the Bible teach re. what a believer has the very instant they are born again?  Forgiveness of sins (past, present, future), justification (not only forgiven, but just as if I never sinned), sanctification, free access to the presence of God (remember by God's gift, not my feelings), God's presence in my life(He will never forsake you), His friendship, His love, eternal life, Heaven, an inheritance reserved for us, Sonship, the promises of God, etc.
   Now I belong to Jesus, Jesus belongs to me, not for the years of time alone, but for eternity!
    This blessed immutable promise of God is based entirely in the finished work of Christ and is received in it's totality at the new birth!
   When we understand the greatness of the mighty working of God in us through his gift of salvation there is a powerful renewal and fruit in our lives.  Merit relationship to God also produces a fruit; Paul called it a cursed life.  Reward will come to the life that abides in the truth of the grace of God, and those that do not will produce hay, wood, and stubble.
    I realize this post was rather strident, but I felt compelled to offer it for your consideration.  
                                      God Bless,  Mark
   

Dear Verne,

First of all, you have never met me.  You are older than me, and for that I respect you.  I do not respect the words coming out of your mouth, but I respect you as an adult and your right to say whatever pleases you.  But again, back to my first point.  You do not know me.  Maybe some day, we will cross paths but until then leave your poor judgements at the door.  Our dear sister Pat has met me.  She has known me for much of my life.  I am good friends with her and her sons.  Therefore, seeing that she knows me, she can say what she is saying from experience and knowledge.  You, unfortunately cannot.

Your “soiled diaper” analogy was quite humorous.  I applaud you.  And I am sure my brother will later.  But I blew it off in a way.  You couldn’t take that.  

Quote #1:
“Clearly they take umbrage at this because their father, Jerry Robinson was one of these men.”

Clearly, you don’t have any idea what you are talking about.  Don’t take it personal.

Quote #2:
“After their pathetic objections to this position had been overcome with unassailable arguments to the contrary, they then assayed to wage a verbal campaign against any an all who demurred from their point of view.”

The only person that finds Paul’s and my objections pathetic is you.  Write a book.  I’ll be sure to buy it.  
A verbal campaign.  Nicely done.  I never thought of it in that form.  It’s wrong none the less.  An apology would suffice.  You see, a campaign with two people against a dozen would be quite futile.  My point here is not to start a verbal campaign.  Check your assumed premises.  Your verbal assaults of people like Sondra are not cute.  Apologize to her while you’re at it.  You need to get control of yourself.  By the way, this is the same thing I said to Brent.  Maybe you could reread it.  Your campaign involves sticking in ever so often a biting remark and back stabbing those that you disagree with.  Your variety of the English language is all very nice, but it doesn’t seem to get your point across any faster.  I “demur” to that.

Quote #3:
“Brent and I seemed to be particulary favorite targets.”
 
Favorite targets?  Riiiight.  Your victimizing of yourself is very gratifying.  It won’t fly, though.  People have read your posts.  You are not a target.  But an enemy of others here on the forum.  You cut people either here in the public or in private.  Either way, your games are coming to a close, and no one is frightened anymore.  You also need help on your intimidation skills.  The “soiled diapers” one is over.  And then, you tried to get everyone to ignore me.  It was all a nice charade.  But this maturity that you love to gloat about, is undermined by your juvenile jokes and statements.  An apology would be nice.  You try to step on people, but let me give you a hint.  Buy some bigger shoes.

Quote #4:
“You have seen the posts.  They have not engaged in debate but rather in defamation.”

Those posts that you are lying about will deface that statement of yours.  Good try any ways.

Quote #5:
“The invectives and insults have been coming non-stop.”

HEY!!  WHAT DO YOU KNOW!!  Just found another Hypocrisy Award.  I award that to you, dear Verne.  For your victimizing of yourself when you have been the chief perpetrator of this.  Here’s a tour down Memory Lane.  Two words.  “Soiled.”  “Diapers.”  Sorry, no time for a speech.  The music is playing.

Quote #6:
“Look at the temerity to accuse me of abuse in view of the kind of language they have been employing on this BB ad nauseam.”

The gall to say that noble Verne abuses people!!  Do you even know what abuse means?  It means wronging someone.  You have.  You don’t know me.  Remember?  You are not an innocent victim.  So please stop trying to be one.

Quote #7:
“With respect to your objection to my dragging their parents into this, I must say that I have restrained myself previously out of regard for Jerry and Tina whom I knew well.”

No you haven’t.  The only thing is, you’re running out of weapons.  The “bigotry” statement didn’t fly.  The “public spanking” never happened.  The big words aren’t working.  And now, the “soiled diaper” trick
fell flat on its face.  Yes, you’ve restraining yourself.  We would all hate to make you angry.  Please stop flattering yourself.  Bringing my parents in to this only reveals your motives.  But maybe you have an ace up your sleeve.  But then again, you’re not a gambling man.  Well, you sure know how to bluff.

Quote #8:
“The directive to elders to maintain control of their children does not so far as I know have an expiration date.”

Your kids will let you know.  Does your iron fist just affect the web site???

Quote #9:
“You might find it useful to converse with former members of the St Louis assembly regarding these two.”

Have YOU???  Who have you talked to?  Are you going around my back?  Doing a little history digging?  What have they said?  “Well, Luke has always been a rebel with a chip on his shoulder.  He used to set kittens on fire, threw rocks at windows, spit on old people.”  Or are you bluffing?  Also, apologize to Pat for trying to convince her to follow your same path.  She knows me.  

Quote #10:
“These boys are the children of spiritual leaders but it has to be obvious to any casual observer that they have never been subject to anything or anyone.”

Any casual observer?  Correction:  Just to you, Sir.  I invite you to visit St. Louis.  Talk to anyone who knows me.  See what they have to say.  I have never been subject to anything or anyone?  Stop.  Right now.  You don’t know me.  To any casual observer, you’ve been a sad display of maturity here and somehow you are trying to redeem yourself.  But then again, your bluffing is not working.  Your eyes are blinking too fast.  Maybe too much caffeine.  Long nights planning out your attack on the Robinson boys, perhaps???
Please apologize, sir, for assuming too much.

Quote #11:
“I am sure you have heard of their conduct on other venues beside this BB.”

What other venues?  I’d love to hear.  This is going to be good.  Or you could be bluffing and for that you will be asked to apologize to the group for jumping to conclusions.  You are biting off more than you can chew.  Don’t take it personal.

Quote #12:
“Their merciless and disrespectful harangue of Brent was for me the last straw.”

This is the world’s tiniest violin…  Please reread what Brent said to Sondra.  And then reread what YOU wrote to Sondra.  And then, apologize for trying to victimize Brent.  You are doing him a great disservice.  It was the last straw??  So that is when you decided to bring out the big guns?  The ones labeled “soiled diapers?”  Well, what can I say.  I am undone.

Quote #13:
“I felt a public spanking was in order since clearly none had been administered at home (sorry).”

Please apologize for assuming too much.  You are getting yourself covered in mud and it does not look pretty.  Your “public spanking” fell flat on its face.  Remember???  By the way, Mr. Carty, I can’t recall you moving into our home and watching what took place.  But maybe you can call up some people and find out.  Good luck.

Quote #14:
“My only concern with putting a leash on these whelps is that it runs the risk of appearing to be striving, which a servant of God must of course not do.

Please apologize for calling me a “whelp”.  You are contradicting yourself by insulting others.  Stop.  
Are you actually saying that putting a leash on me is doing the will of God? You need to control me?  I guess you haven’t gone far from Geftakys ways.  Or am I bluffing??

Quote #15:
“The ease with which this task is accomplished though in my view clearly should relieve all of concern in this regard.”

Stop flattering yourself.  You are trying to hard and are just getting more and more desperate.  Go read your Bible.

Quote #16:
“They need to be taught some manners.”

By you???  Let me guess.  First Lesson: How to Stab Someone in the Back With Style, Grace, Poise, and A Powerful Grasp of the English Language.  Maybe we can be students in the same class.  Or have you already graduated?  Or are you trying to imply that this is Obedience School where you are the noble teacher and I am the faltering canine?  


Stop, Verne.  Just stop.  You assume too much, you think of yourself too highly, and you attack people way too much.  Your maturity is lacking.  Did you get the joke in my last post?  God forbid that you take it to heart.  You are being a major hypocrite and you cannot victimize yourself any longer.  You are already waste deep in mud and it will take a miracle to get you out.  But God can do it.


VerneCartyfa---Riiiiiight

You are absolutely correct.  In fact, it was the shock of the Geftakys family antics that God used to awaken me to my real need to break free.

I also agree that many have suffered real psycological damage.  But harping on how "I was wronged" should begin to fade.  The aim in my life should be to be to live in the "liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free".  First, we must break free of the need to complain about things/people over which we have no control.  (That is not to say we don't urgently warn others who need to be warned about them and who are receptive to that warning.)

More important, though is our view of God and His grace and our spiritual standing.  To me this is much more important.  For that reason I pay much more attention to those posts that address these issues.  I believe this spiritual problem is the area where the deepest and most subtle damage has been done to the greatest number of us.  After all, the ultimate aim of this board is to draw us to God in the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ultimately, of course, both of these problems, psycological and spiritual, will be solved by person on person attention apart from this board.  This would be through counseling and sound biblical teaching.  Each of us therefore needs to take the appropriate measures to obtain healing in our lives.

I will pray for you.  Pray that you will stop being hypocritical and being the enemy of God's people here.


Why not?  You've spoken bad to everyone who disagreed with you.  What's one more?  

Dear Luke!
  You can't possibly remember, but there are probably those here who do, a TV show called, "lost in Space".  The family was called Robinson (after swiss family Robinson) and they were marooned on a unknown planet, with no way to get back to Earth.
   There was this robot that would always run around with the young boy, named Will Robinson, and announce, "Danger, Danger Will Robinson", as he blundered off into some dangerous situation.
   I go into this long introduction because I have thought of that old TV show in regard to some of your posts :) ;)
               DANGER, DANGER LUKE ROBINSON!!   ;) ;)
  Verne is an honorable and able defender of the Gospel against those who would seek to pervert it.  I don't suggest that you are trying to pervert the Gospel, but possibly not open to receiving instruction that could be helpful to you.
    I think we should all be careful, as we banter back and forth, that the purpose of this website is to truly discover God's will through the Scripture.  The site was established as a means to ascertain the message in the knocking of Jesus at the door of the Assembly.  Clearly, judgment has come, and that is a good thing, because it means God is trying to speak to and bless those who were out of the way.
  It is not a time to defend a system that was weighed and found wanting, but to purchase the gold tried in the fire and the eye salve from our Lord.  This means an opportunity to see things in a new way.  Humility is the best course of action, as well as a teachable spirit.
    Let us seek to advance the cause of Christ in one anothers lives.          God Bless,  Mark
 

Dear Mark,

Have you been reading anything of what Verne has been saying or am I just talking to myself?  He is a defender of the gospel?  No, he is a defender of himself.  He is honorable?  Please reread what he said to me, Paul, affirming and others.  You have the wrong idea about Verne.

But then again, he could really be a nice man.  Under that tough, hypocritical exterior.

Mark, we must be talking about two different Vernes.  I know that if you reread what Verne has said, you really would not say that.  Have you been reading how he is trying to attack my parents?

Did Verne write you personally to defend him or something?  You would not be saying that if you knew.

Again, I respect you alot Mark, for your graciousness and your kindness in presenting your point.  But we are talking about two different Vernes.  Maybe we can compare notes.

By the way, Verne, thanks for letting me know that my prayers would be futile and sinful.  

Stop, Verne.  Stop.  Verne, stop.  The mission has been called off.

Dear Luke,
  I have tried to keep up as best I can and think I understand why Verne is so concerned re. yours and affirming's posts.
  Hypocritical?  How so?
  Verne is concerned, as I am, that dangerous concepts are not being clearly discerned and in some cases taught.  I will leave it to you guys to deal with any personality conflict that might be involved.  I am a Global Moderator ;), but have my limitations.
  I have my own way of trying to discuss these things and calling people names is not profitable in my opinion.  I'm not trying to defend Verne (he doesn't need my defense), but to ask you to consider his concern in his discussion with you.  My concern is that we miss the opportunity to learn from our discussion.
  I am not saying we have to only engage in bland, and passionless talk, but such without edifying speech, seasoned with grace, can be strange fire.
                God bless and Good night!   Mark

So now Verne is just concerned.  Now I've heard it all.

So far

Affirming has said a bunch of stuff that is really hard to understand.  I guess her main point is that if we were all more spiritual, everything would be great, and we could forgive George?

Honestly, this sounds like too much medication to me.

Robinson has said nothing of substance, but is great at calling people names.  No one is more sarcastic or rude in their posting, except John Malone, but Luke is even more irritating than he.

Mark Campbell is always level headed, and always has something good to say, but no one pays any attention.

I don't know what's up with Brent, but Robinson and Affirming jumped all over him, and he apologized, which is something Robinson has never done, and probably never could, and no one pays any attention.

I think you have all gone crazy.

I am a lurker, but if I was the Moderator, I would ban Robinson, and try to reason with Affirming.  Most of the regulars are gone, becuase of Robinson, I suspect.

Same thing happened when Malone was here.  The more he posted, the faster people stayed off the site.

I think these guys are doing it on pupose.

Again,  I am one of the luking guests.  It seems to me that there are several reasons why your guy's old church was so messed up, the main one being that you are all some really whacked out people.  

If I could have my fantasy come true, it would be to have Verne Carty kick the crap out of Luke Robinson.  Something tells me that Luke really needs this.  I really wish he mouthed off somewhere and just got his teeth knocked out by some patient guy who just has enough.  Again, Luke,  you are living proof that you grew up in a cult, with your parents part of the lordship.

Affirming, you seem a little more civil, but you shouldn't dodge questions so much, it makes it look like you don't have anything more to say than about mystical spirituality and how you used to be bad, but now you are more spiritual.  whatever.

Luke Robinson telling people they are hypocrits?  Riiiight.

Luke Robinson getting mad when someone is irritated with his loutish behaviour?  Riiight

Luke, I think you need to go live with George.  He has some room now, you could really learn a lot.

Just a Lurker

haha, what you call "irritating," I call hiliarious.

Gee,

Let me guess, you are in an assembly too?  I visit this site to learn, and to find out a few things.  Malone, Luke, and some others that I don't remember are funny, in small doses.  But shoot,  they get mean, and just go off!  Nothing is ever resolve, and then they just go and do the same thing again, with someone else.

Matt, are from Luke's assembly?

perhaps I'm not lurking as much.  I'll see how it is.

Lurker

Hi Sondra,

It is nice to finally know your name. In answer to your questions. No, I cannot make David, George or Tim repent! BUT I can tell everyone I run into about them and hopefully keep them away from any of the assemblies still in progress. That is my goal.

You say George got too big for his britches, is that from living off the sheep for so long? The problem with you and I is that we are not on the same page about George. I call George a sinner who needs to repent and you won't take a stand. I believe the elders from Fullerton, who dismissed George out of his own church for sin. I think they have a better grasp as to what happened than I BUT they still excommunicated him due to his sin. This is very serious.

My story of how I was treated and banished from the SLO assembly is pretty much over unless it can be used to help someone from getting involved with the assembly or opening someones eyes to get out. That side of me is done. The line of this post is "Who is Deceived" it is not "A Place of Healing" or "How to use scriptures to get your lovey dovey point across." There is no lovey dovey when we are discussing sin, it is simple and straightforward. I won't sugarcoat the topic. It is an ugly one. Sin running rampant in the camp.

I'm glad you were there when Rachel was born. I was there for Rachel's wedding when they wouldn't allow her to wear white. I was there when David preached at her wedding about the prostitute, which was horrifying. I was there when they took a beautiful moment and tried to turn it into something assembly. I was there when Daniel was born and they told everyone not to go to the hospital to visit. I was there for all of this "godly" behavior sent down by George.

Money, sex and power. Those are the three things that Billy Graham said will take down a ministry. It certainly was evident with George.

Sondra, you also said something of interest to me. "Since you are a sinner, you don't find it hard to believe that a man (George) could fall into sin". Weren't we taught to confess and repent? Is George above that??

Heide

P.S. Verne and MarkC, please don't stop posting. You guys hit the nail on the head everytime!

it is impossible to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and at the same time eat from the tree of life.  the former touches death, the latter touches life.

 
2 Cor 3:6   Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.  (KJV)

1 Cor 13:4-7
4   Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5   Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6   Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7   Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.  (KJV)

verne, i don't care how you try to justify it - you're wrong in spirit.  you will find many to agree with you and pat you on the back.  but your fountain is pouring out dirty water my brother.  

the scriptures say alot less about straightening out a fool than the idea of love your enemies and curse not.  

i'm just waiting for the scripture reference to appear about the godly man being able to dispute the gainsayer and all of that.  

you are right about some of the things you say, but because of the spirit in which you say them, (not in love), you negate the message.  sometimes you are very sweet, but often you go off - this is sort of "bipolar" behavior.  i don't say this to hurt you or bring you down...but there is some serious flip/flopping going on around here.  you say you are going to take some time to rest and get caught up.  several times you have retired, but it's almost like you can't stop yourself....you need to respectfully....get some new perspective because i think you are operating below yourself.

lurker, i like your observations, but i will tell you you can't possibly really know what we're talking about unless you were there.  but it's nice to hear a foriegners perspective.  if you've never been to or lived in belgium, it's difficult to give directions to a citizen of belgium.  hey, but i like your spirit.

you are correct.  sometimes i don't answer questions posed to me - it's america - but you know i may just sound all spiritual and pious and aloof.  but i will suggest that i have grabbled with alot of these issues enough in my past that i will not even go into some of it again.  i'm trying to lift people up that are ready as i had some do for me.  those who aren't ready will generally bite your hand of.   so i try not to put it into the cage very far..understand.  

you're right about all of us being wacked out, but people who have gone through these kind of sufferings do get a little wacked out.  i will tell you  another thing - people in the assy's are brothers and sisters in some very, very unique ways.  like americans who fight among themselves - when there's an outside aggressor who threatens our nation watch everybody (almost everybody) get back to back and fight.  i believe each one will come to the end of the bitterness.  some sooner than others.  God is not done and time is a wonderful thing.  

thanks again lurker.  that name sounds like a stalker or something.  are you a believer?  i haven't read many of your posts?

I have "grabbled" with alot of things too.   I am not a stalker, but a lurker.  That's what they call someone who reads on forums, but never says anything.

I am a believer, and I am sooo fascinated by cult behaviour.  I have some experience with Cooneyites, and Local Church people.  

From my view, I would say that your thoughts, Sondra,  are the most muddled and inconsistent of any of the current group of posters.

Here is one thing that cought my ear,  "verne, i don't care how you try to justify it - you're wrong in spirit.  you will find many to agree with you and pat you on the back.  but your fountain is pouring out dirty water my brother.  

the scriptures say alot less about straightening out a fool than the idea of love your enemies and curse not. "

Actually, the scriptures say "alot" more about straightening our a fool, much more.  but in your world, where you commune with God in a mystical way (big local church idea)  you only read the "love" parts of the bible, and only apply them to certain people.

that's it for me

God is not the author of confusion, but of a sound mind.  You are full of confusion,  at least your words and spelling is.  Not so for your opposition.

Lurker

Hi Everyone!
  Wow Lurker!  WWF styled warfare between Verne and Luke???!! :o :o  Please, all very funny ;D, but not the spirit for edifying conversation!  Lets not make it any worse than it is by making such suggestions.
  Yes, people who have been in cults and cult like groups do have a fair amount of emotional issues to sort out.  Sondra is correct that the dynamics are difficult to understand from the outside looking in.  There is a progressive emotional reaction when the member discovers they have been deceived.  There is shame, sorrow over lost years, anger from being lied to and used, and hopefully moving on to healing and restoration in Christ.  
  Also, remember this is a BB and the conversation takes on a "crazy" tone, at times, because it is the nature of anon. conversation.  I don't know if any of you have been on a CB radio before, but what people will say is truly amazing, because they are not face to face with the other individuals.  It's kind of like the transformation that takes place on the Freeway when the meek Clark Kent type transforms into an aggressive competitive mode in his driving.
  The most entertaining posts' usually get the most attention and this makes the educational one's dull.  In the book, "Unholy Devotion" by Harold L. Bussell (Zondervan-1983) he talks about how there is a natural tendency to be drawn to speakers who are charismatic and dynamic.  He noticed, in his work with Christians as a pastor, that the dry and educational speaker, who really had something profitable to say, was ignored.
    Since the topic here is about deception there is a key in Mr Bussell's observations in understanding the issue of deception.  If we refuse to allow our comfortable emotionally based assumptions to be challenged by the entreaty of the Word of God we are in trouble.
   The Bible tells us that those that are not "easily entreated" do not have the wisdom that comes from above.  None of us are above this kind of scrutiny.  This alone should have told us GG was not of God (before all the immorality stuff even came to light).  It should also show us that posters here who refuse to respond to entreaty share the same cultic tendency.
   The protest of those being entreated is that the spirit of the entreaty must first be in the right spirit, or they are free to continue to propagate their false teaching; attempting to turn the tables on the noble enquirer.  This doesn't mean the one entreating is always correct, but the refusal to respond is always wrong and significant.
  I have already mentioned that Paul publically rebuked Peter, and in the argument even Barnabas was carried away.  Good ol' kind hearted Barnabas, the son of consolation; I think he was a peace maker and generally an easy going guy.  Maybe he thought Paul should have privately raised the issue, or that Paul's motives were anger, bitterness, reactionary, etc. against his former involvement in the erroneous pharisaical group?
  "Tone it down Paul!  We're all Christians here!  Submit to God and let him change the leadership!  You are not following the correct steps in entreaty; first come alone, than with a brother, and than tell the whole church!"   Let's bring in Johnnie Cochran to defend Peter and make sure the entreaty follows all the rules of jurisprudence." ;)
  Humility is the Godly response to entreaty, and this means I humbly recieve my brother's concern, try to understand, and converse the issue with him.  We may not agree on everything, and in that case others brought into the conversation can help to bring perspective.  But, to ignore the discussion is pure arrogancy and aligns one with the false apostle crowd that Paul opposed so stridently.
  There is a simplicity in Christ that Satan seeks to entice us away from.  The Gospel is not difficult to understand and a casual reading of Galatians should reveal that certain posters here are in desperate need of returning to the Grace of God in Truth.  Understanding grace is key to a blessed life and to not understand it is to face a curse.
  I have tried to make my post a little entertaining, as well as instructive this time, in the hope of gaining listeners. ;)
                                  God Bless,  Mark
             

Sorry for not using the quote feature, just cut and pasting here:
Lurker: "Gee,

Let me guess, you are in an assembly too?"

Me: Wow, you could tell all that from me saying that Luke Robinson was hilarious instead of irritating?! Could you also tell that I have brown eyes and that my cousin Karlene is not feeling well?

Lurker:"Matt, are from Luke's assembly?

perhaps I'm not lurking as much.  I'll see how it is."

Me: I'm not sure what you're trying to say. To answer the first part, no, I do not go to luke's assembly. I don't even know who he is. As for lurking and for seeing how everything is, please give yourself a chance to sober up first. Nobody wants a drunk butt swaggering around and "lurking" about.

Dear Verne,

I have not taken offense at anything you have said so far...I completely understand that you, being an older man, feel threatened by us, being much younger than you...(For the record, I am going to be 21 in two weeks)...You feel threatened especially by my younger brother because your responses can not match his...you have been embarrased publicly by being revealed as a fraud and a hypocrite and now, by any means possible, you must STOP THOSE ROBINSON BOYS!!!  The little comments about the diapers and the public spankings were cute!!!  I enjoyed them immensely, but as Luke pointed out, I'm sure that noone read that and thought, "WOW, what a great, mature man.  If only I could be like him someday..."  
Dear Sir,
You're trying very hard and for that I commend you but as was seen with John Malone trying to back us down by unbiblical intimidation, it just didn't happen...You see, my father (the one you have critisized here) taught us to THINK!!! and not to give in to stupidity (oh yeah, the whole "parents" thing...you're running out of weapons, my man...what next, big fella'?)
Just because you're older doesn't mean you're wiser...but I am pushin' for you, dear sir...
I would be more than happy to continue this with you because I have your best interests in mind...Have a great day!!! ;D ;D ;D

Verne, Verne...He's our man. If he can't do it, I'm sure anyone else can...

Rather, Verne, I think the BB would like you to stop embarrasing yourself. Don't have you have anything better to do than harrass people half your age? Maybe some knitting needs to get done? Or catching up on your almanac?

oh....NO! It is people like you that make me feel sorry for those with the last name of Robinson. You probably thought you were the first person to ever tell him "danger danger will robinson." Sorry if you were offended, but please man try to come up with something a little more original....

Dear Verne, Heide, affirming, Luke and Paul, and To Whom This May Concern

Consider what Pat has written (as quoted above).  I suggest the you/we all IGNORE the bait and stick with the topic.  When you feel provoked "take 6 minutes off"(no insult or sarcasm intended here) before replying.

Love and God bless,
a sister in the Lord

ok, break it up, everyone, back to your corners...

this thread has degenerated from warm (heated?) discussion to a bashfest. this is a waste of everyone's pixels. i don't care who started it or whose fault it is, just stop the personal insults and attacks and lets get back to meaningful debate. paul, before you mock my use of the word meaningful - i am becoming convinced that your sole purpose here is to disrupt any meaningful debate you deny the existence of so vehemently. if that is so, then please go away. if you really do want to contribute meaningfully, then work harder on doing that and restrain your purposefully inciting comments. luke, you seem more interested in serious discussion than your brother, but your comments can get pretty inciteful and insulting as well - work on not posting like that. verne, i have to admit that some of what you posted about the robinson boys has made me cringe, but i feel partly responsible since things might not have gotten this bad if i was doing a better job as admin.

from now on, everyone feel free to click on the little 'report to moderator' link that accompanies each message if the message is overly taken up with attacking and insulting others on the board personally. it'll really help me keep track of whats going on. i just hate to see threads dissolve into nasty personal fights. ugh.

as others have said, it can sometimes be difficult to interpret exactly how something written here was intended. roughly 80% of communication is non-verbal in a flesh-n-blood conversation. so try to express yourselves clearly (assuming your intention is to AVOID offense), and when reading posts try to be patient and tolerant. try rereading that stinging attack with a friendly/punchy, or heartfelt/concerned tone of voice in your head. look for ways to understand each other better, rather than misinterpreting each other for the sake of oneupmanship. things like that...

so... what were you all saying again about the dangers of a spiritual life that has gotten so 'deep' that control is perceived as love, and freedom is forced and exhausting... who is deceived and who wants to be...?

Sondra,

Your message to Lurker, "You can't possible know what you are talking about unless you were there...." What?

No one has to be there and understand sin. There were many people from the SLO assembly who didn't see the whole picture. Once Rachel's story came out and then Judys, they got it. Once George was excommunicated they got it. They weren't in the midst of "it" but they got it. They left.  You don't have to be there in order to understand sin running rampant in your neighbors camp.

Thanks MGov, I always get up and get something to drink when I don't get it or it hits me wrong. Sometimes I just sign off and go garden or run my errands. If I really don't get it, I copy and paste it to a friend to see if they can figure it out.

Heide

Dear Matt :)
  I'm sorry that I bothered you with my 60's TV trivia, but I would have thought that young folks like Luke would not be aware of the TV program.  It also was a failed attempt at humor.  I was trying to lighten up the conversation a bit as it was getting intense.
  I would much rather have had responses to the meat of my posts' vs. challenges re. my lack of clever packaging, but it seems that this is the focus at present.
  Please accept my apology for boring you.
    Now, what do you think about the issue of deception?  Are you a present Assembly member?  What is your view of the Gospel and the Christian life?  These are the important issues that will not waste our pixels one whit.
                                  God Bless,  Mark

Vituperative Verne??
My vocabulary is not very vast.

How many v's in this post??

All in good humor.
Lord bless.

heide,  i would like to quote myself correctly - just one or two words misquoted can make quite a big difference.

your quote: "You can't possible know what you are talking about unless you were there...."

original quote:  lurker, i like your observations, but i will tell you you can't possibly really know what we're talking about unless you were there.  but it's nice to hear a foriegners perspective.  

it has a very different sound doesn't it.  i believe the way i put it originally has a ring of respect and courtesy - would you agree?

first of all i think you said that you were a marine - am i correct?  i've been a little out of it as of late.  i can't tell you how impressed i am with our marines fighting for our country.   it just brings tears when i hear their brave and courageous perspectives as they are interviewed by various embedded reporters.  it's war and war is ugly, but many of these men and women are shining.

heide, you are right. sin is sin.  you are certainly right about so many things i've heard you say about the ungracious and cruel ways people were treated in the assy and about sin in the lives of those who were leading...some perhaps knowing they were sinning and some unaware.  (that's a big can of worms)  some who sinned and should have known better, but perhaps could not help themselves...not excusing it, but i've been there.  i've killed my share of christians with words being very well intensioned at the time.  people who live under the law are deadly killers and they are also lawbreakers on the other hand.  wonder how i know this?

i don't mean to sound condescending heide, not at all, but as one who had a huge offence going for several years i will tell you that eventually your offence will soften....that is to say if you continue to love and seek the Lord.  mine did.  i, at first rejected the suggestion from a godly friend that i wasn't forgiving and putting offence away.  eventually, that still small voice came through to my heart.  the Lord said, you know we need to talk about something - you have offence in your heart and need to start working on getting it worked out.  i did not change the offenders. they are still today as awful as they were back then...but my heart is free because i now refuse offence and i will forgive as a discipline.  otherwise i will go back to living in death and not in life in the spirit.

have a great day dear (being sincere).

Dear all,

I fully admit that I am an instigator...Most of what I post is tongue-in-cheek...I know I am fully hated on this BB and the more hatred that was shown to me, the more fun posting became...It's like trying to put out a fire with gasoline...But its all becoming ridiculous...and Brent is taking 6 weeks off...
So, I know a huge celebration will ensue, but if Brent takes 6 weeks off, I am taking 6 weeks off also...I respect him and desire to join him in letting the BB simmer down a bit...I am not affended at all by any posts here and if anyone here has been offended by me here I ask that they would email me or private message me...And if you have read this far without stopping to celebrate, I thank you...I am honored...
 ;) ;) ;)

Paul

Affirming/Sondra:

I'm not going to split hairs with you. You come in here and quote all kinds of scriptures but you leave one thing out. We are talking about sin and deception. How you call George really is the bottom line here. Either you say, yea, he was in sin and is in sin or you say peace, love and understanding and forget it. I myself will get into trouble here when I say I probably have my own spirituality going on. Not only is there a christian issue at hand there is also a moral issue. In our society, generally a man is brought up on charges and his jury of peers decide his fate. This isn't something new age. This is what our forefathers thought of, a way to keep man in line. George has shown what he is made out of. Has he repented? NO He has shown a cowardly exit. The elders of Fullerton have asked that because of George and his sin not to allow him up to preach. If we all act as you, who will hold up this judgement from men? If we put this away who will tell the sheep? Have you no care for your brethren? The little sheep who are still in bondage. Get to the heart of the issue and stop dancing around it.

Let's talk deception: Verne, George always claimed that we did not hold onto a paid clergy. And that it was wrong. BUT. George was getting paid. Other than a clear case of hypocrisy, do you know what the justification was for this?

Heide

Dear Paul,
  You are certainly not hated by me, nor have I missed the fun loving nature of your posts.  There is a time and place to enjoy the "combatative" nature that is found in the youthful male personality.  God has made us guys this way for a reason, and it is a basic survival skill that gives us this competitive desire.
  Many of us see the possibilities of communication here as opportunity for serious discussion that results in helpful insight and application to our lives.
   Back in the Assembly, as a leading Bro., I would sometimes raise questions at the dinner devotional.  I would ask the Bros. why they believed a particular teaching that GG promoted.  I was usually met with silence, as there seemed little interest in really understanding the why, what, and where re. what we were being taught.
   I also remember a seminar and an incident with your Father.  The Seminar was called "The Fountain Of Life", and had to do with I: John.  Your Dad led our discussion group after one of the messages.  We were all stunned at the implications of what GG was saying, as the message seemed to support a modified form of perfectionism.  To your Father's credit he did not give glib answers that were politically correct, but answered that he also was confused.  We knew enough at the time not to question GG, and assumed that our lack of understanding was our fault.
   This process of Noble Inquiry, that was squelched in the Assembly, is very important to develop in the minds of God's people.  Thinking through what we believe, and why we believe it, is crucial to a healthy Christian life.  There will not be growth in our life with Christ if we do not have this serious discussion.
   In conclusion, this BB should not be where we seek mastery of one another in debate, but a place to try and challenge one another to think through what we believe, and why we believe it.  The challenges can be pointed and disagreement strong, but always with a willingness to accept entreaty as possibly being God's knock on our door.
   I would like to persuade as many as I can to use the wonderful opportunity we have here on this BB.  I have been on many other BB's over the past 10 years that have dealt with cult/abusive church recovery issues.
 
      First: This BB is exclusively on the Assembly; most of the other sites never heard of the place.

      Second: There is a strong Evangelical Christian presence on this site.  On many of the other sites the people were not open to appeal on the basis of the Bible.  My continual attempts to reach recovering cultists with the message of the Gospel were largely ridiculed.  There were a few successes and this encouraged me.

   Both of the above reasons lead me to believe there can be some real positive help for one another here.  Please check out the introduction on the Geftakys.com home page that Steve and Margaret have given us.  I am exicited about the new possibilites there as well, and trust that the Lord is not done using this wonderful forum that Brent started.
                              God Bless,  Mark

heide,

i appreciate your frustration, but i get a little frustrated with people who try to get others inflamed and to take up an offence.  if i can't become more clear and find common ground in this post, i think i will assume that we just don't see eye to eye on much at all.  i think i like you, but i reserve the right to let you be different.

i wasn't there when this sin that you speak of took place, i haven't spoken to the sisters who supposedly had sexual relationships with g.  alot has been said that i am not going to just buy into easily.  as i do not sit here in my comfortable living room and criticize how the leaders are taking the war - i am supposing that when brethren dealt with the sin at hand that they acted fairly...but then many have also condemned the and accused the same brethren who x'd g of having poor judgment and lack in wisdom and many other things.    i have, however, said that if these reports are true with regard to immorality - then the actions against him were just.  beyond this - no - you're right - i won't take it any further.  

this perspective may seem like a character flaw to you, but if you were a friend of mine you would enjoy that i let you be a big sinner and make some big mistakes and would try to help you to do better, pray for you, forgive you and eventually thought - if you kept on and on with it - i would distance myself from you.  ok?

please don't mistake my peace for the absence of care for the Lord's sheep and the lambs.  i care very much...but i am not a soldier type...i am a faith type.  i laid down a militant approach to unjustices years ago.   i understand that God uses men and women to deliver others somewhat, but not all are called to do the same things.  where you may be called to be more hands-on others may be in a place of prayer and intercession.  all aren't on the front lines, some are envolved in support, etc.  sometimes i get the impression that some feel that God is an inept old man who sits by idly and let's people really hurt His people.  like i've expressed before, i think i understand that God waits sometimes for us to get enough that we begin to see it and get up and walk out on our own two feet.  it's time for some to grow a backbone and they will not get a deliverence until they decide that they had better make a decision on the things that others have been trying to help them to see.  all beyond this, in my opinion, just pulls the rest of out of peace.  does that do us any good?  no, in fact, then we can't hear the Lord's voice because we are all worried, out of faith, upset, distracted, frustrated, hurt, strife, and on and on.....

i've seen really impossible situations handled through faith and confidence in God.  people who have lost a child, people who's children were molested by a parent, people who have developed mental illness, people who have been betrayed in excruciating ways, etc.  the injustice at hand is a heavy cross...but crosses have to be carried for awhile and then it gets worse doesn't it before it gets better.

Prov 14:29  He that is slow to wrath is of great understanding: but he that is hasty of spirit exalteth folly.

Prov 16:32  He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty; and he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city.

Nahum 1:3  The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

Nahum 1:6  Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

I'm glad you are showing signs of good-naturedness now.
But you cannot, with impunity, throw out spiteful comments and then pull back and say it was all tounge-in-cheek?  No, that isn't right.  It seems to me that both you and your brother owe some folks an apology.

arthur, with all due respect i think paul's apology was just that - an apology.  can you give a young man a little room to be a man?  he also extended an invite to anyone who he had offended to email him, i assumed, so that he could work the offence out one on one.

groveling is not necessary.  would you agree?

I agree with Affirming. The guy apologized...do you want him to now kiss your feet? I think you should be embarrased, really. To be honest, I don't think that he has much to apologize for. People our age had an incredible amount of control exerted on our lives during our time in the assembly, especially by those older than us. And it sounds like he grew up in the assembly...so is it any surprise that his posts are less than cheerful toward the older members of the assembly? I think that you need to apologize to everyone, really, for existing. Let's see you and Vernecarty repent.

c'mon... these are the kinds of comments we can all do without. really, lets not argue about punishments and apologies. private email is a great way to sort out personal differences without the added stress of having a public image at stake. public apologies can sometimes help restore peace, but calling for them rarely does.

btw, to use the quote feature you can start by hitting the Quote button on a post, which put the word 'quote' in brackets (ie [ ]) before and after the entire text of the message you are quoting in your reply. if you look at the ending brackets, the word 'quote' is preceeded by a '/' like this: (opening bracket)/quote(closing bracket) - this is a sign for the quote to end. so for multiple quotes in a single message, you have to keep typing (opening bracket)quote(closing bracket) in front of the text you want to quote, and (opening bracket)/quote(closing bracket) after the text you want to quote, which will put it in a box, like so: if those who were asking about how to do this are still having problems, feel free to message me about it.

verne,

please give me a minute here.  i would rather not use lots and lots of scripture to nail down every point i make.  i'll tell you why.  one reason is that generally someone will search in their bag and find a conflicting scripture.  that game can go on and on.   secondly, as has already been said in several different ways - scriptures have been mistaught, misunderstood, misused, etc. to the extent that it gets a little crazy trying to support points of belief with "a scripture" thirdly - several years ago i learned to study consistent principles that worked for all scripture - letting the letter of the law in all it's different jot and tittles form the generally accepted principle(s).  

having said all of that, verne, i don't mean this mean, but i am no longer willing to answer your posts because i feel you have been unwilling to stop when brethren (myself included)  were asking you and begging you to stop with the sharp insults.  not until the bb police came in were you willing to stop.  you were not easily entreatable, but a railer.  if you can't hear an admonition from a common brother or sister - i really don't want to submit myself to your questions.  once my heart turns cold toward a person because i've lost respect for their methods - it's difficult for me to respond in any other way.  

if the moderator, brian, wants to call me down for this or kick me off - so be it.  i'm getting pretty tired anyway.

Hi ALL! :)
  I read Sondra's reply to Verne re. using Scripture and would like to make a lengthy reply as it is crucial to a healthy life with Christ, but I must get out the door.
   I would like to suggest that interested parties should take the recommendation on the Geftakys.com home page re. the book, "How to Read The Bible For All It's Worth."
   Part of the problem of our Assembly instruction was the way the Word Of God was interpreted and applied, but that does not mean there are no means of understanding and applying texts.
   The Gospel and the Christian life are designed to be very simple; indeed it was that simplicity that Paul sought to defend in the church.  One way Satan has used to entice his people away from that simplicity is by means of esoteric knowledege.  The mystical method finds a meaning behind the meaning through inner intuition.  This was the error of the Gnostics, and one the early church had a big fight with.
   Yes, a big argument!  I make a big deal out of it because it is very dangerous to go down that road.  GG used a mixture of the above error in his view which allowed him to make the Bible say what he wanted.
   I'm aware that proof-texting Bible debate can take verses out of context, but that doesn't mean the Bible doesn't instruct us in propositional truth.  Again, none of us have ascended to a higher plane where we can claim that we are beyond entreaty.  Refusal to be entreated automatically places us with those whose wisdom does not descend from above.
    Got to go!                 God Bless,  Mark

Dear affirming,

My understanding of the purpose of this BB is to expose the error of the Geftakys ministry so that we all may repent.

REV 2:5 'Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you, and will remove your lampstand out of its place-- unless you repent.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to be on a "yes but..." track.  What you say may be valid(to a certain extent), however it brings confusion when you are not on the same track.

Albeit, I agree that some of the saints posting here appear to be adamant, but if you overlook their tone and stick to the topic, you will be able to communicate on the same wavelength.  Remember that you cannot always accurately determine the attitude of the saint posting(since you cannot see/hear them in person).

One of the great illustrations of the importance of Scripture in keeping us from error, is this most fanciful of George's flights during the waning days of his 'Apostleship". It is fully documented that George Geftakys was teaching, in clear contradiction of the plain teaching of Scripture, that man was created not on on the sixth, but the seventh day of the Genesis record. According to him, one needed "special insight" to see this, never mind what the text plainly says.
Imagine for a moment, a room filled with Elders and leading brothers sitting listening to this tripe and no one making a move to drag him (all-beit kicking and screaming) from the pulpit.
As a matter of fact, several eyewitness reported that some of these leaders were starting to nod their heads sagely and affirm - " I am beginning to see it...!"
How does this sort of thing happen? You may be certain in does not happen overnight. The brothers around George were not all imbeciles. George had methodically over the years perverted and polluted the thinking of his hearers with the notion that he had some kind of special "insight" (read "heavenly vision") that permitted him to assign other than the plain meaning of the text, to over-spiritualise the text, and as in this instance to outright contradict the text.  As he would often gleefuly exclaim: IT IS BETTER FELT THAN TELL'T!
Absolute Hogwash!
A  scriptural basis for all we assert is of critical importance. It is our only reliable way to be kept from deception.
Verne

     Well said, Mark & McGov!  Thank you both...
...................................................................

Dear Saints,

     i have been avidly following this thread ever since withdrawing from posting here because my posts were drawing a lot of flak from people who couldn't (or wouldn't) grasp my point and who found it more convenient to brand me a disrupter and tool of the enemy than to try to know and understand me, and have discourse with me.  Some of that has been resolved via personal emails, for which i am grateful and give God the glory.  i hope to see the rest resolved soon, God willing.
...................................................................

     As to the current discussion, our ONLY safety is in fully trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ who saved us, to also keep us, according to his promises to us.  The focal point here is:  ACCORDING TO HIS PROMISES!
     We cannot know what God has done on our behalf and what he has promised us and provided to us, unless we know what he has said.  Wonderfully, we have a written record!  It is ALL in the Bible...

     It is not my point here to say that we are all to come to the same perfect and all-inclusive understanding of every point of doctrine.  That will not happen in this life.  We are not so constructed that we could contain, understand, and exercise the fulness of God's knowledge in our present form (even though he has opened it all to us).  "For now we see through a glass, darkly;  but then face to face:  now I know in part;  but then I shall know even as I also am known."  
1 Cor. 13:12
     
     The key to living in Christ is the very same as the key to being initially saved from sin, and all we need to know and understand about either IS IN THE BIBLE.  Do my statements seem contradictory?  i can understand that they might, more to some than to others, depending upon where you have been and what you have experienced.

     EVERYTHING about the Christian life depends upon our having an active living relationship with Jesus Christ himself, not just reading a (even THE) book.
     BUT, that relationship will NEVER exceed what is verifiable through the scriptures!
     Is our bible, any bible, a guaranteed fully accurate word-for-word account of all God's thoughts, and are you and i empowered to fully grasp all that?  Assuredly not.  But there is nothing that we need to know that we cannot find in the bible.  THERE IS NO EXTERNAL SOURCE TO US FOR SPIRITUAL TRUTH!

     Cannot God speak to us, cannot Christ make his mind known to us, cannot we sense and know his leading of us without first reading about it?  Of course we can, and we should hope to more and more as we grow in grace and in the knowledge of him.
     BUT whatever he tells us, shows us, leads us into WILL BE VERIFIABLE THROUGH THE SCRIPTURES.  That is why we are told, "STUDY to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2Tim.2:15

     Is the almighty God, creator of heaven and earth and all that is in them, confined to the pages of a book?  NO.
     BUT he has given us, between the covers of that book, access to all the knowledge we need to successfully walk with him in this lifetime.  The BIBLE:  our only contact with God? NO!  We will find him in books by godly men and women, and in the songs they have written;  in the fellowship of the saints, and services of worship, prayer, and ministry to his people;  even in the wonders of the natural world...  But, in none of these will our knowledge of him EXCEED the range of scripture.  THE BIBLE IS OUR FAIL-SAFE, OUR TOUCHSTONE.

     We are not all equally equipped to divide the words of scripture.  So, while we look to those who are teachers, we must pray avidly for understanding of what we are told, and for discernment of right teaching from wrong teaching.  He is faithful to answer such prayer and to deliver us from all unrighteousness.
     And those who ARE teachers have the great responsibility to be humble before God, not reveling in the greatness of their gift, but being grateful to the Lord for allowing them to serve in such a manner.  They must be kind, loving and gentle;  able and willing to help the weak and wounded;  not confusing the misled with the devil who misleads them.

Bless you all, my dear Family,
al Hartman

Sondra: I am still alittle confused by your postings, are you actually stepping up to the plate and saying, even though you weren't there, you believe the elders had reason to excommunicate George for being in sin and unwilling to repent? My frustration comes from your posts because I can't figure out where you are.... Why did you leave?

Verne: Why did they send the money in aluminium foil?

Heide

I might not agree with what you are saying but that doesn't mean that I want you to leave. A public forum is all about hearing someone else's perspective. Some of you guys have more puzzle pieces so it is interesting to me to hear what you have to say. Welcome Back, Al!~

Some six years after I had left the group in Champaign, I ran into George and Wayne Matthews in a local restaurant thtat was a very popular place for breakfast. Strangely enough, initially I did not realize it was George with Wayne and I went up and joyfully greeted Wayne (who has been nothing less than a model of Christian integrity to me.)
When I realized it was George sitting with him, I also greeted him -  "Hello brother, how are you?"
He looked at me and fired back " Verne! Are you walking with the Lord?"
I had the strongest urge to fire right back- " Are you??" (little did I know...!)
Of course you don't talk to George like that...I simply said "Oh yes, my family and I are in joyful fellowship in a local Christian and Missionary Alliance Church where I have the privelege of serving Him"
First he quizzed me to see if I knew anyting about A.B. Simpson and I initiallly played along and hinted that I knew the work started among the social rejects of New York. He kept trying to get me to say A.B. Simpson's name but I just smiled and asked "Why are you testing me?"
Finally, he started in on the Alliance, about how they had lost their vision and how the churches were so confused etc. etc. The next thing I expected him to say was that A.W. Tozer was a heretic!
I recall this incident to illustrate that there was something deliberate and pre-meditated about the destructiveness of George Geftakys. It was his constant aim to undermine the faith of others and convince them they could never be used of the Lord apart from his blessing and sanction.
Was George deceived? I think not. The word has a certain suggestion of victimhood. I believe this man purposefully embarked on a voyage of deep wickedness from the outset. He himself practiced the high art of deception and manipulation with a finesse that is breath-taking. On this very thread, we still have adherents contending that "He is the Lord's servant." Who is deceived? I am afraid many of his victims still are...George was a Master Deceiver...!
Verne

Beloved,

     With some there seems to be a major issue over whether George was born wicked (found by a witch, under a rock in the forest?) or became deceived as a youth or young man.  i met him in 1969 and, until recently i had thought that he was still OK in those early days of the Fullerton assembly.
     This BB and the GA website have brought to light memories of words, deeds and events that have illumined me to the fact that whatever is wrong with GG today had begun before i knew him.
     Born bad?  Led astray?  Demon possessed?  My greatest certainty is that, as Verne pointed out, George became (and still is) a master deceiver.

     Because it applies here, i share with you my earlier post from another thread:
----------------------------------------------------------

    Grace to you, and peace, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Wow!  i think Brian hit the nail on the head with the term "Institutionalized!"

    i want to share with you a part of my testimony that i haven't posted before:

    Most of the people now on the BB have no idea what the assembly in Fullerton was like in the 1970s.
    Almost everyone in the assembly was under 30, most in their early 20s.  All the children were very small.  Mat-training was a perfected art.  There were no problems of rebellion.  Everything was orderly.  The deception that this was the true picture on earth of the Bride of Christ was nearly perfect.  At least it was so much so that when a trace of reality appeared, we could sweep it under the edge of the rug and pretend it wasn't there.
    Looking back, i can see so many clues that we neglected.
Once, when GG was about to leave on one of his journeys, he had very strongly stressed a doctrinal point in ministry.  Upon his return, two or three months later, he strongly taught the exact opposite of what he had previously said.  Amongst a couple of the other LBs, i wondered aloud about it.  Mark Miller looked me in the eye and said "So what?!"  And that was that.
    That was how all inconsistencies were handled.  Occasionally a visitor or newcomer would dissent and leave, but the regulars accepted the party line unquestioningly.  We were as zombies:  we walked through all the appearances of normal people, but we had disconnected all of our warning lights.  
    We COULD HAVE seen that we were on a collision course with disaster, but we wore blinders.  Having eyes, we saw not;  having ears, we heard not.  We accepted utter weirdness as the status quo.

    i especially want to emphasize this to the saints who are leaders on the BB today:  
    Our experience in the 1970s was VERY different than what happened in later years.  As the assemblies and the work grew, there were many more people involved, who were of varying backgrounds and ages, with families of different inclinations and sizes.
    As the numbers increased, so did the variables, and thus the numbers of ways that things could slip out of hand.
    To those whose positions and fortunes depended upon consistency, this meant a necessity for more and harsher controls.  In the early years, we delighted in calling each other Brother and Sister-- later on it became mandatory.  Many things became mandatory that had once been considered privileges.  Practices and order that had once been maintained through a sort of idiotic trust became the subjects of strict and severe discipline.  Shepherds became Storm Troopers.

    Some, like my family, have been gone for over 20 years.  Many who have left recently had not even shown up when we had departed.  Some had not yet been born.  Our experiences are VERY different.  i stress this for a reason:

    i was brutalized, yes.  But i did not know it at the time!  When i left, it was because i was no longer fit for service.  
i was burnt out from trying to perform the responsibilities of a worker, LB, house leader, head of a family of six, and employment at a fulltime vocation.  i was exhausted and my health was deteriorated.  And i was cast off like a worn out shoe.
    My family and i were quarantined-- no one was permitted to have contact with us.  We left as failures to the Lord and to his work.  And we were sent every new issue of the T&T to remind us of our shortcomings.
    i wasn't bitter.  Know why?  Because everything about the assembly was right, and everything about me was wrong.  GG & co. were godly-- i was not.  Hey, i believed it!  For years!  i was unfit for Christian service anywhere.

    Did i indicate that there would be a point to all this?  Well here it is:  
    i (we) have had years to recover.  i only recently discovered how truly heinous the crimes against us were.  But to us they're ancient history!  We've had time to get over it, outgrow it, recovery from it.  Many of us never personally saw the Geftakys's & their cronies as evil people, because they were still in the closet when we left.  
    We never had reason to be angry.  We skipped that phase.  By the time we learned of something to be angry about, it was too late.  Those of you more recently harmed probably can't conceive of what i'm telling you.  Some among us still haven't realized that those wonderful people we were so devoted to following were gargoyles dressed as saints.

    So i'm asking you all, on behalf of all of us who are "different," be patient with us.  If someone pops up on the BB & pops off about your anger & hostility, tolerate us.  
i now understand the reason you are angry, and i respect your feelings.  But some of us still don't get it.  You can't understand why?  That's OK...  But try to accept us as we are--  we haven't all seen what you've seen;  felt what you've suffered.
    Some of us really do have peace in our hearts.  Don't resent us for that.  Continue, as you have, to reveal the truth to us, pray for us, and try to bear with us.  We're all in the same boat--  let's keep it a fellow-ship.

God grant us all that we may see
our next step in following him.

al Hartman

Al, Verne

Now that you have stated that George was 'evil' from the start where do those who were/are still in the GA system stand in light of God's word.

Some possibilities:
1. Throw out the baby with the bathwater.
2. REV 2:5 'Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you, and will remove your lampstand out of its place-- unless you repent.
3. Don't put new wine in old wineskins.
4. A variety of the above depending on the assembly
5. other

MGov

Verne,

Sorry about that. Yes I meant to address you esp. about the CMA pastor, etc.

In my view, it is the nature of deception to not be entirely apparent at first glance. A first glance at George Gefakys resulted in many of us being duly impressed.  This is why I believe the Lord gives men of discernment to His church.
 The pastor in question certainly got a different viewpoint when I started attending that church and eventually became involved in leadership responsibilites and had occasion to share some of my own experiences.
This same pastor had served as many years as mentor to a couple involved in leadership in the Lombard Assembly (while the brother attended U of I) and spent much time trying to encourage them when the crisis broke. I do not know what his opinion  was ten years ago but I have no question as to where he stands today.
This raises another critical point. The men previously involved with George Geftakys (from the Bretheren assembly) were fully aware of what he was. Their silence all these years is inexplicable. I understand that one of the leading brothers from the Chicago assembly upbraided them recently for refusing to come forward with what they knew. While I have some sympathy for the leadership around George, the decades of them observing conduct from this man that so clearly departed from any Godly standard leaves them pretty much without excuse, the silence of the Bretheren leaders notwithstanding.



The only Christian leader I ever heard George compliment was J. Vernon McGee. I do not know if this was only for my benefit as I was an avid fan...I loved the man dearly and everyone knew it. George's agenda did not allow for any peerage on the part of other Christian leaders. I remember how my theological cosmology was shocked into a new paradigm when I attended my first General Council of the C & M A. What a constellation of Godly men and women! I wondered..."Where have I been all these years?"
The missionaries and leaders I have met in the Alliance are men and women of true Christian nobility; I felt like I had been robbed blind...thank God He opened my blind eyes!!
Verne

Verne,

Please be careful when you are talking about us on here.   It seems that the facts that you have are usually about half right/half wrong.  I'm sure you are aware of the problem that was caused last month.

Also, are we included in your statement about those without excuse?  :-[  


Al,
I always thought that the assembly got better than it used to be.  Shepherds to Storm Troopers???  The assemblies were decidedly different in each place.  Yes, we were guilty of some things....but it was more like the brothers having too much outreach, one brother "encouraging" people to come to meetings and bothering people too much, not being good enough friends. not listening to concerns, etc.....

Andrea

Al,

I loved your last post.  It really clears up your position and sheds more light on the early days.  The increasing control was a result of growth (not a loss of goodness).  They had to grip ever tighter on our reigns to keep us in line.  You experienced what might be called the 'honeymoon' stage of the ministry.  The honeymoon was over by the time most of us got involved.

Thanks for your insight.

Jack

Hello everyone.  i'm still here, and it is my pleasure to report that our God is still on his throne!
................................................................
Dear MGov, i owe you an apology (or two).  It's my aging eyes--  they "c" things that aren't there.  Sorry.

     Re:  your question posted earlier today about where those still in the assemblies now stand in light of God's word:  My thinking is they're right where they've always been, each one directly before the Lord.  God saves us One-on-one.  It's an amazing but undeniable fact that what Christ did for the whole world, he did for YOU and for ME, as individuals.  And all that was accomplished by his victory over sin and death has been dispensed to EACH of us, that we may triumph IN THIS LIFE.  Those dear saints of whom you ask EACH has direct access to the throne of God, who has given to EACH his Son, his word: all his promises, his Holy Spirit.
     If your question is about the assemblies, the answer will vary with each location.  But God has not failed to provide for every need of each of his saints.
   BTW, i have NOT determined that GG "was evil from the start," but merely that he was heading in the wrong direction since before i met him, and never changed course.
.....................................................................
Verne, i don't really think you and i wonder "could this happen again?"  As much as the reality pains us to admit, we know it could, and it may.
     
     George was always diligent to sever relationships between his "parishioners" and any other spiritual leaders.  A wonderful, godly older couple from Costa Rica took up residence in the San Fernando Valley.  They accepted our invitation to attend worship in Fullerton, and George tried to sell them on his "heavenly vision," but they didn't buy it.
     They were going to meet with us in the valley weekly to teach us how to share the gospel with our latino neighbors, but as soon as GG found out, it was permanently cancelled.
     He was also very upset with me for spending a few moments in private discussion and prayer with Bakht Singh when he attended one of our all night prayer meetings.  He indicated that my concerns should have stayed within the assembly.  Probably the only thing that saved me from a real tirade was that GG was the one who invited and introduced Bakht Singh.

     i hope you'll read my post today on the "My True Issues With Tim Gefttakys" thread.
.....................................................................
Andrea,  Guilt?  i'm not sure what you think i'm saying.  Is there any doubt that the leadership in every assembly bears the responsibility for whatever has happened there?  The whole story varies from location to location, but some things were universally wrong.  Certain teachings and practices have been wrong for a long time.  Which leaders are guilty and which were deceived i don't know, as i am not familiar with most of the principals, and i haven't seen the few i do know for many years.
     The assemblies should have got better with time (in a perfect world), but they only got bigger & harder to manage.
The "Storm Trooper" tag belongs to a relative few, but there were many other not-quite-so-drastic wrongs committed.  Many were involved in the abuses.
     i may be totally unfamiliar with the situations you have seen.  The biggest weakness of the BB is trying to be "general" enough to speak to every situation in a single post.  It seldom works.  Feel free to email me or any of the others.
..................................................................
Jack, You are apparently that fortunate person to whom my post actually spoke.  Enjoy it!  Next time the chances are that no matter what i say you won't get it.  Posting here is kinda like Russian Roulette, only the damage done here can be much greater.
     Yeah, for sure i was in on the assembly's honeymoon.  But i ended up with a divorce and no alimony or child support.
........................................................................
     Thanks to you all for your responses.
i don't care what it meant when they said it to us in the assemblies--  REJOICE!!!  It is our birthright and privilege!!!

al Hartman

Do you want to know who is/was decieved?  It was George Geftakys.  You see, some years ago, George had an acute back problem and he got some perscription painkiller.  The Problem persisted and when it was time to get a refill of the painkiller pills, poor George took the bottle to a nearby Sav-on drugstore.  Unfortunately, the pharmacist there was REALLY tired and he accidentally refilled the bottle with VIAGRA.  Now Georgie didn't know this and when he took, what he thought, his painkiller medicine, he experienced some really wack side effects, including a soaring libido.  Well it wasn't long before he realized the poor Betty had nothing to give, and had he had to take his medicine two times a day, he was really suffering.  (By the way, George had realized the his "medicine" wasn't working and so he began to take ibuprophen.) Unfortunatley,  George got really desperate and,well, you know the rest.

Verne,

It may be inconsequential to you, but I wanted to know hence I asked because it is significant to me.
I understand your frustration over the denial of some.
Al has responded to my query.  I also appreciate your input.

God bless,
a sister in the Lord

Al,
Forgive me if it seems that I was not appreciative of your post and also if I was defensive.  Guilt?  I don't think that's it.  It just was in reading it that it struck me as different than conversations that I have had with ones over the years who had been in the assemblies (some who had already left)  for an extended period of time.  They would tell me how rigorous, how hard, how controlling it "used to be".  My point was not to say that there was nothing left of that.  I also realize that there were many places that were horrible (I think of the valley and SLO assemblies in particular, at least my limited knowledge of them).  Perhaps I was being defensive as to Joe being called a storm trooper.  :)  I should have realized that your statement was a broad one and couldn't possibly encompass each and every situation.  Sorry about that.

Verne,
Again here I was being defensive.  Please forgive me.  It is hard to make statements on here without sounding harsh.  I certainly wasn't trying to be in attack mode.  It was just a plea.  I suppose I could have sent an email instead.  The details that you incorrectly state are really inconsequential and it is my own problem to have taken issue with it.  Sorry about that.  As to Joe speaking out....I'm assuming that you did not read his posts that he made in this forum, and are unaware of the stand that he took in other venues.  He has decidedly spoken on these matters.  (I am a defensive one, aren't I  ;D )
On the misunderstanding....I should have personally emailed you...please forgive.

Andrea

Thanks Verne.
I appreciate your reply.

MG

For those of you still in the assemblies, remember one thing! It is scientifically impossible to pour new wine into old wineskins that have been patched. The assemblies are corrupt because they mirror an image which is corrupt. It is great thinking that since George is gone, now everything will be better. Unfortunately all of George's teachings still stand. Sheep need a shepherd, find one that is qualified. Every man who is a leading brother in an assembly is NOT qualified to be a shepherd. He was not called by God. He was called by George. If you say, "but my friends are in the assembly..." What will you say to God when He asks "Why did you stay in a place that was so dark" and you say "But my friends were there." Don't follow men. Follow God.

The basic bottom line here is that George was in sin and is unwilling to repent. Was he evil from the start? This is a man who brought home a woman when his children were small and was going to leave Betty for her. Documented by George's own son, David. This was before the assembly got started. Doesn't look like the pattern has changed much. Apparently is his own home, he was hitting on sisters. Yes, it is documented.  Is this the man you want to be associated with?

Wake up, this isn't a bad dream. It is a nightmare if you are still in an assembly. Verne pointed out the first quality is to be blameless.

Stick to the facts, George knew from the 70's what was going on between Dave & Judy and he did nothing. Is this the man you want to be associated with?

Have no doubts, George might never be seen from again but Tim is on the way... Might I remind you that the nut never falls to far away from the tree....

Heide

Verne;
I was surprized to read your post where you said you never meet Bakht Singh.  I guess when he visited Tuscola it was before your assembly time.  I don't remember what he spoke on but I do remember he was encouraged with the wellcome he received in Tuscola.

I had the opportunity to hear Bakht Singh preach in Chicago. I got there 2 minutes before the mtg was to begin, Bakht Singh was in back standing by himself when I walked in, I thought he was some poor old Indian guy comming to hear the preaching and I asked Him 'if this guy will have anything good to say"?, he smiled walked up and started preaching. He was very simple.
It was a far cry from a grandiose Geftakys entry.

Hi All,
  I heard Bakht Singh speak each time he visited Fullerton.  It is interesting that the last 2 times he spoke his message was on the Church of Laodicea.  Mark Miller told me he could not understand why Bakht Singh kept on preaching that same message to the Assembly.  Mark believed Bakht Singh was confused, and thought that all American Churches were worldly, and so he just automatically preached the same message to every American audience.
   Christ's words seem to fit well here: "you say you see, therefore your sin remains."  God used Bakht Singh as one who was especially tuned to God's message for the church in our time.  It was too bad that he lost that gift on the few occasions he visited the Assembly ;).
                                  God Bless,  Mark

     i reckon Mark is into another week of truck driving, and i don't want to try to answer for him.  But by way of explanation in my own opinion:  
     Bakht Singh was not invited to the assemblies for the benefits of his ministry, but as a feather in GG's cap.  He could claim far and wide that "a great man of God is in fellowship with our assemblies."  It served as a powerful introduction in new situations.
     i believe that as Bakht Singh began to see that there was "trouble in paradise," he still accepted assembly invitations in hopes of warning some and encouraging some.  GG & co. ignored the message, but capitalized on the "big name," and if any of the saints were inspired to think outside the box, the gestapo, er, leadership acted quickly to squelch it.
     This may sound cold, but it is my opinion.  i don't remember a thing Bakht Singh said-- my recollection of him is of a kind, dear man who was glad to share his time with the least among us.

al Hartman

There is an interesting back story re. Bakht Singh.  Before the assembly began, while Steve and I were visiting various groups with George (I think this is when it was, it might have been later), Bakht Singh was in So. Cal. as part of his yearly visit to Indian groups in the US.  There was to be a meeting in a home of a friend of George whom he knew from Biola, a brother named Mattai.  We arrived early, and I helped Mattai's wife Maryama make curry for the gathering.  About ten years ago Steve and I attended a home Bible study, and it turned out to be the home of Mattai and Maryama.  They remembered us, and wanted to know what was going on with George.  We told them our story of leaving, and they told us the following story.

On another visit of Bakht Singh's to So. Cal, after the assembly had begun, George was contacted by Mattai to let him know of the visit.  George volunteered to pick up Bakht Singh at the airport and take him to the meeting.  All the Indian brethren from around So. Cal were gathered for this meeting, and Bakht Sing and George were late.  They waited and waited, and finally Mattai called George's house to find out what had happened.  Betty said that George had picked up Bakht Singh at the airport and had brought him home, and he was resting.  Mattai said that all the brethren were waiting for the meeting to begin, and could he please speak to Bakht Singh.  Betty said Bakht Singh was resting and she would not disturb him.  Meanwhile, Goerge had already arranged special meetings in Fullerton for Bakht Singh, and that is where he took him that night--to speak to us!  This was Bakht Singh's first visit to the Fullerton assembly.  He probably thought that there had been a misunderstanding.  Perhaps this incident sheds light on his message about Laodiciea.  No wonder he was eventually no longer invited to the assemblies.

The denoument of some forty years of Assembly preaching and practice has really challenged the thinking of many us who were once part of that system. As regards its ultimate failure -fortuitousness? or forethought? I think the way we answer this question absolutely determines how well we emerge from the experience. If, as I am quite convinced the evidence shows, it was remarkable forethought, too many of us were guilty of myopia and malaise spiritually speaking. These vignettes by veterans like Steve and Margaret are so critical to helping us think about and assess the period accurately. I find myself thinking out loud as I read some of these stories..."How keen is my perception today? How strong my resolve? For many of us the answer is "sharper" and "stronger". For many others, sadly, I am not so sure...
Thanks for the anecdote Margaret.
Verne

Bakht Singh! I'll never forget the powerful message he preached in Chicago years ago on Hebrews  11:1 & 2.  "God... has in these last days spoken to us by His Son..."  It was the first time I had heard it preached that God actually spoke to us in that way. It was a new thing for me to consider and took my vision away from man-made things to the peaceful place where God is.  I never quite got over it.  :)

Re: Margaret's post

I am not questioning Margaret's story, but I wonder about the conclusions.  This is not in defense of GG or BG either, but rather to consider what is the true conclusion.  We tease a number of our friends for keeping 'Indian time' when they are tardy/late.  Tardiness tends to be a characteristic of people from India. BTW this is not intended to be prejudicial in any way.

MG

i think the conclusion is that george betrayed his friend and kidnapped Bakht Singh, leaving his friend's entire church hanging. doubtlessly, george was hoping to provide his group with an impromptu 'endorsement' that george could boast about for decades to come. but then the message was not much of an endorsement, apparently, so george decided not to let Bakht Singh come back, then pretended that he got Bakht Singh's endorsement for decades to come.

i'm not sure what you are getting at by the late comments, mgov. am i missing something?  ???

I don't...
Verne

On second thoughts, I personally feel that I do not want to pursue this avenue of reasoning (RE: my earlier posting on this thread).  I do not see that it will prove anything.  So forgive me for the earlier post.  Brian and Verne, I respect your evaluation of the situation.

MG

Al your post illuminated something that has truly bothered me about George and was brought into stark relief as I read it- George shamefully (shamelessly?)used people. There is no question that there were some choice saints involved with him who had the purest of intentions over the years. Nothing stirs more loathing than the thought of all these dear people being suborned by this man...
Verne

Verne, and all,

     i'm afraid each of us must ask the Lord for discernment regarding our own culpability in being used, and we must all be cautious about judging each other in this respect.  Some may need admonition, others surely do not.  But of this we may all be certain:  God stands ready, not to punish us, but to pardon us and welcome us back to himself.  He has killed the fatted calf and will greet us with warm embrace, both forgiving and restoring us.

 
     But my conclusion about George has shaped up very firmly:  he would use anyone at any time that it would serve to his advantage.  Moreover he was very calculating in this:  Low I.Q. but strong back & good income = you're golden until your back or your funds give out-- then you're history.  Ah, but strong mind + leadership skills = usable for YEARS.
     And yes, sad to say, it became a family tradition.


Gratefully forgiven and restored,
al

For all of you Brother Bakth Singh fans, I just discovered a web site dedicated to his ministry:
http://www.brotherbakhtsingh.org/index.html

MG

Great website. Thanks! :)

---

So someone comes up to you and says, "I'm going to lie to your face, rip you off, live in lechery, pretend that I am worthy to lead you, act with an air of arrogance lording it over you, and all the while make you feel good about it."
Then do you say, "OK!  please sir can I have another?"

The short-comings of human nature astound me.  The fact that I am one of them is disheartening.  But the fact that God loves us, is for us, bears with us and helps us in our weakness is cause for great joy.  
Let us be grateful and pay attention to the warnings of the One who so cares for our souls.

II Cor 11:19-20
For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.  For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.

John 5:43
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

---

Steve,
The quotes you have posted are powerful and speak for themselves. They come from individuals whose opinions I respect.
Mark

Does repentance from following a 'false' teacher and having grieved the HSpirit, restore us to a fresh start with the HSpirit?

Or do we now have to start 'cultivating' the effects of the HSpirit in our lives?

Or...??

Marcia

MM----

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just
to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all
unrighteousness"(1 John 1:9).

Full restoration is immediately available to all of us.

God bless,  Joe

So then.... :)

If we pray and seek the Lord, then He will show us the error of GG's teaching, because we have the Bible and the Holy Spirit to guide us.  Why is there a need to disband an existing assembly that has repented?

Marcia

If everyone truly has repented I wouldn't see a need for everyone to disband. But it might be a better idea if they did and I'll give this reason: When I left the Assembly I had to do a lot (and still am to this day) of "unlearning". So much of the stuff is so engrained in you it's hard to shake it off. In any group of people there are always going to be a few who want to hold onto some of the old teachings and begin to teach them again.

So it seems to me it would be better for everyone to go and sit under some real solid Bible teaching, and get themselves straightened out first. Get away from the pull of the Assembly and get solid on what is truly the teaching of God.

This is just my opinion of course,  so I hope others will share their opinions on this too.

take care,  Joe

Joe, I am of the same mind.  While there may not be anything inherently wrong with what is presently going on in an assembly - assuming everyone has repented - I think there is nothing particularly awesome about the assembly either to keep you.  And there is much to be learned/unlearned by going to a place that you know is solidly founded on biblical principles, that doesn't have the weight of 20 years of mistakes hanging over its head.  One thing that kept me going to the assembly in chicago for these past months, is the fact that I truly love each one there - and I know they love me.  However, I have seen, by God's grace, that we can still have great fellowship together, though we may not attend the same physical gathering.  Praise God for His church, which has no physical or geographical boundaries.
Joseph

That's funny--we were all on our knees with an open Bible praying that God would lead us and we were doing this for years while in the assembly.   Yet...hey wouldn't you know it, we were decieved anyway.  Hmm, maybe, just maybe that religious practise doesn't guarantee anything any more than praying the rosary.

The reason assemblies should disband is so that the people in them can get out from being under the influence of the assembly system.  George is gone, hu-rah, but the system is still there, and peeps staying in it are like addicts having a drip-line I.V. of heroin continually pumped into their system.
They need to yank that out and get their heads cleared.  It may be painful and they'll go through withdrawals, but they'll be clear-headed once again.  

I don't believe it can be an instaneous healing.  I think people who say that are still smokin' some assembly dope on the side and trying to pretend they aren't.

Hi Everyone! :)
  Arthur makes an excellent point!  I've mentioned before the response from a would be Assembly reformist where he couldn't understand why I thought he needed to sit under instruction before he sought to lead his group onto reformation from the scourge of Geftakyism.  His response was, "can't the Holy Spirit lead us?!"
  True reformation is indeed the work of the Holy Spirit, but how does the Holy Spirit accomplish this task?  Rom 12:1 tells us to be "transformed in the spirit of our minds" (the key word is "mind").
   There is a false kind of elitist spirituality that believes that thinking is opposed to the Spirit.  "Oh, there's a kind of thinking that goes into the process", they may say, "but it is a "spiritual perspective" vs. a carnal view.  
   A carnal view is just reasoning from self centered sinful desires, and a spiritual view pursues God's will as it is clearly revealed in scripture (nothing that requires a special revelation in prayer).
   The Assembly was steeped in the elitist spirituality that I mention above ("The Lord showed me this, and the Lord showed me that").  You would think with all this individual insight being received in the Assembly there would be anarchy, but there was a twist that GG added, and that was his revelations trumped everyone else's; thus our thinking was forced into deceptive patterns through years of GG indoctrination.
   To know the leading of the Holy Spirit we must first understand that we have been deceived through the acceptance of these erroneous patterns of thought.  This is why reformation of the old system is impossible, as the whole basis is faulty.
   "Why is that Mark?  If I have the Bible and the Spirit, are they not enough?"  The JW's have the Bible and think they have the Spirit, the Mormons, and a better example would be the "Jesus Only" pentecostal church; it's what they think the Holy Spirit and the Bible are telling them, but they are in error.  It would be folly to try and reform the JW's from inside, because only a total repudiation of their teaching can lead to a mind that would be receptive to a different way of viewing things.
  As ex-Assemblyites there is so much that must be altered in our thinking.  There was false understanding of how we hear God's voice through the Word, how one understands the struggle with sin in the Christian life, the proper boundaries between others, etc.
  The idea that after 20 years plus of indoctrination somebody can pick out what is baby or bath water from the Assembly distortion would be similar to do it yourself brain surgery blind folded!  This is why God has gifted the church with teachers: Read them, listen to them, and then pray and study the Word for a fresh perspective.
                                 God Bless,  Mark
   

I am wondering what would be a good response to someone who tells you over and over the Lord showed me this, or the Lord led me here, or the Lord told me that, or the Lord didn't tell me to leave the assembly, etc.
How do you argue with someone's experience? Serious answers please!
Thanks.

personally, i am very uncomfortable with telling people what they should and should not do in these cases. i think the most important thing is to be sure you are making your own decision, consciously, and not being led in any direction by someone else or simply doing things out of comfortable habit. i think each person deciding for themselves is closer to freedom than a blanket decision either way. that being said, if an former assembly group does decide to keep meeting, i think there are a few things they need to watch very, very carefully.
1) do not allow yourselves to stay isolated - have meetings with other churches, talk with outside pastors, get involved with your local christian community (NOT merely other assemblies! *klaxon alarm*). there are many many home bible studies that get just as far into left field as the assemblies were. spiritual isolation is what allows this to continue unchecked.
2) realize you are not God's special little flock on the face of the earth. you might be a very nice little flock, but there is nothing (good) happening in your group that is not happening in other churches right there in your town/city - no matter how genuinely inspiring it is to think highly of yourselves, or to preach along those lines.
3) watch the controlling attitudes! do not let the men start getting all excited about what great leaders they are. good leadership ability is a wonderful thing - the ability to control/intimidate/manipulate others is a very different and very ugly beast. get a tv. take dance lessons. drink wine with dinner. quit saying you've "got a burden" for things. when you feel like saying brother or sister, say the person's name. small groups where people all say/do the same 'insider' things are just creepy, and an open display of controlling and conforming attitudes. and they are soooo comfortable after the habits of years have been formed - that is part of the insidious dangers people who have left are warning you about. by leaving you are forced to leave all these things behind - by staying you might not have to (dosen't that feel nice? :()
4) give public accounting of how much money was received every week and how it is being spent. refusing to do this is extremely dangerous and very comfortable.

there is lots more of course, but these are some red flags that pop into my head.

i think its very helpful to remain good friends with those who leave, and remain good friends with those who stay - as much as possible. people who leave often very quickly run out of patience with people who stay, and people who stay too often want to isolate themselves from the outside perspectives of those who have left. staying in touch with each other is just another way of staying connected to the wider christian community in a healthy way, imho. it dosen't mean that those who have left should pull any punches on pointing out wierdnesses developing in the groups, but honest discussion shouldn't close any doors. if it does, as apparently happens frequently in some CA former assemblies, then friendship is just not possible, and you must stand your ground for the truth. i want to be clear that i am not saying to overlook deceptions in order to maintain old friendships - that is not being a friend. but i think it is unnecessarily harsh to close the door on someone just because they are still meeting with a former assembly group.

there is so much more to say. i gotta go *sigh*

brian

ps i am so glad we can all talk about these things openly  ;D

Someone who claims to be led by the Lord so often and in so many details, will be likely to discover later that some of those decisions didn't turn out so well.  Perhaps you could point out some flawed decisions that you notice.

A family member frequently quotes Prov. 3:5-6 as a defense against suggestions to be more careful about the consequences of various decisions.  There are other proverbs that suggest that we need advice.  Other people can be the means the Lord uses to direct our paths.

PROV 11:14
Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

PROV 15:22
Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellors they are established.

PROV 24:6
For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war: and in multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Joseph----


Just out of curiosity---you mentioned attending the
Assembly in Chicago. it's been years and years ago,
but there used to be a brother named "Guy Moore"
who fellowshiped there----would he still be attending
the Assembkly there?

--Joe

Hi Pat! :)
  Steve and Brian both have excellent suggestions and I will try to toss in a couple as well, but ultimately you can't argue anyone out of denial.  When individuals have built their entire meaning for existence, on a group like the Assembly, if we try and tear it down in their presence it becomes life threatening to them.
  Close to the end of my tenure with the Valley Assm. Tom Maddox (who had already left) had a talk with me.  I had to talk to him re. a serious situation that happened while he was "in fellowship" that concerned wrong doing by another bro. from the Valley.  He raised the alarms bells re. this bro. and I was sent to discredit his charge, which later I discovered was true. (shockingly true! :'()
  He recently recounted to me how that he thought his discussion got no where, but I told him that his talk got further than he thought.  I still remember today (13 years ago) the basic things he shared, and though at the time I appeared resistant, his logic "crept in unawares."
  The statement of Christ in Jn. 10 still holds true, "my sheep hear my voice and they follow me."  How does this occur?  
 It certainly can't mean that every Christian will always and instantly be obedient to the will of God.  The "super spirituality", that I refered to in the previous post postulates a certain way of looking at "hearing God's voice" and this is what we really need to understand.
  To hear God's voice, from the Assembly viewpoint, is purely an emotional experience.  "Wait a second Mark!  I got it from my time in the word, and God showed me!"  As Pat said, how can you argue with their experience?  
  One of GG's most tantilizing deceptions was his invitation to discover a deeper intimacy with Christ; a sense of direct immediacy with the Lord.  The Bible teaches that we are united with Christ, indwelt by the Spirit, are kept by His power, and have His presence in our lives.  We accept this by faith, because He's "spoken to us" in His word, not because we had a sensation/special insight into the "deeper meaning" of a passage that morning.
  As Steve said, eventually we hope that Assembly folks will be honest with their own experiences and see that the "voice" they heard was not God at all.  I'm not saying that God can't, or doesn't, meet people in special ways, but what I am saying is it is not the normal Christian life, and we need to depend on the revealed truth of scripture, instead of this sense of immediate emotional connection.
   Emotions are very important and our sense of need in re. to them cannot be denied, but dependence on an emotional means of hearing God's voice is an unhealthy manner to address those needs.
                                                    God Bless,  Mark
   

Would you start attending a church where the pastor was a newly saved untrained believer??????????????  I think this answers the question best.

I am under the impression that continuing the Assembly as is is probably not a good idea, simply because of what's been stated before - there is too much of a tendancy to continue in the way we always have, despite who has left.  Call it human nature if you will - we struggle to overcome the flesh on a regular basis - but in my experience, people don't like change, even if change is good.  I've been out of the Assembly for 15 years and I know that God has matured me more, even in the last 5 years, than in all the time I was in the Assembly.  I really have struggled to change, to mature, to streach myself beyond my bounds.  I don't think I could have reached or been encouraged to reach my level of understanding and maturity if I was still in the Assembly.

Good point, Kimberley.

And how about a believer that has been saved for 20 years but was in a cult all that time and only just about 4 months ago did he get out?  Think of it, a man who was brainwashed for 20 years, the cult twisting his thinking and perception on life.
Hmmm, better think it over.

How about going to a normal church where the pastor has been saved for a while and has never been in a cult but has always had his head on straight and his life shows his love for Jesus.

But come on, so what that there are plenty of good churches out there, we need to meet in a particular way right, and with the saints of course.  We need to be faithful to what God has shown us. Yeah, you know, the Heavenly Vision that GOD showed us while were in the...um...in the cult.  Oh wait, er...maybe we don't quite see it as clearly as we think we do.  Maybe we should rest and recover in a normal church.  Yeah, good idea.

But hey, if hanging out with delusional people who don't even know how deceived they are is your cup of tea, go ahead.  

BTW, the "crack" that I was referring to in the previous post is meeting with other assembly people.  You know, you hang out with the same ol' people who all think the same messed up way and then you think that way is normal.  You start to hunger for the meetings again.  Soon you'll be so far in again that no website, family member, or church counselor will ever be able to pull you out.
Like crack, a little bit will keep you addicted, but a whole lot--i.e. getting back together with the gang--will cause an overdose that'll destroy you.

i think this is overly harsh. if there is one thing that changed in me as my perceptions of reality were being seriously revised after leaving the assembly, its that i am much more reluctant to call someone else delusional. we usually feel confident that our current perception of reality is accurate, even through our perception of reality is constantly being revised. people who kept meeting in smaller groups after the assembly dissolved feel sure that they are not completely delusional, so when you make statements like this, you sound delusional to them, and you are effectively eliminating the possibility of meaningful communication. obviously we make statements like these out of anger and frustration, but if anyone told me i was completely delusional about any topic, and thus should believe what they are telling me rather than my own perceptions, i would not give them the time of day. we are all somewhat vulnerable right now, picking through the pieces of what we know to be true and what we consider suspect. lets take it easy on each other while we are comparing notes.

brian

brian, i'd have to agree with you on this one.  If there was anything that hindered me from hearing what people had to say re: the dangerous attributes of the assembly, it was the condecending, 'you are deluded' tone that it seemed every person took when talking about it.  If all that is important to someone is winning an argument, then fine, use all the putdowns and subtle digs you want... but if you really want to win people, and rescue them from something, a bit of understanding will go a long way.
joseph

Greetings Robb:
We left about the same time. I think your observation is a good one. I've noticed the same in myself and others, too.
To a degree, at least, when some of us exit the assembly it's like we start again at the psycho/emotional level we entered the assembly with. The preceding statement may sound like mumbo-jumbo (maybe someone else cd. phrase it better than I), but to me it's akin to escaping a dysfunctional family so that you can learn life skills and gain maturity in order to live and function in the real world. Of course one has to live in the real world in the first place as a prerequisite to these things.
   I was visiting a friend who left the assembly and he was listening to a certain rock group from the old high-school days and had begun smoking cigs. and marijuana again, and by then he was about 30 years old. There are more subtle things than this example, and I hope that you or others might expand on this as time allows.

Sebastian Andrew

I have found that this is true.  We were so shielded from things outside the assembly, and inundated with the notion that the Assembly was "the way" and everyone else was backslidden and not walking with God.  One thing I'm grateful for is that I've learned that God works in anyway he pleases and  who are we to tell him that He can only work through the Assembly system and why should we think we are so great that God would choose to ignore the work of other great men and women of Christ who had no clue of the Assembly. . .I could digress and let a lot of bitterness rule the post, but in the end, God works and is working through the church I'm now attending, and leading me in ways He sees fit.  And giving me a bit more understanding when it comes to dealing with people who don't see things as I do.  I've not given up on the fact that all people should turn to Christ and the basic message of Christianity, just the fact that in all of Christendom, there is not one way to worship, to pray, to study the Bible - Just one way to heaven.  Wasn't it John Wesley that said "In essentials, Unity, In non-essentials, Liberty, In all things, Chairty"?

Yeah, I say "Amen" to that. I totally agree that it seems like we're all continually changing our take on "reality" because none of us has the answer.  
And hey, I'm as messed in the head as the next guy--just saying that if they still want to do the assembly thing, that's being delusional--'cause it is.  Wouldn't you agree?
Ah, but you're saying I shouldn't be so harsh and blunt about it.  Ok, I c ur pt.
Do you think anyone who still believes that the assembly is God's gift to the world ever reads this site anyways?  

You know, you and me and others who have chimed in here are trying to deal with it and figure it out.  I think that's the difference.  The people I'm addressing are loosers who are hell-bent on refusing the truth (oh snap, got to watch that harshness, hehehe).  I don't like people like that.  I guess I'm set in my ways.


Yep.

Overly harsh?  You're probably right, but I don't particulary feel like being nice to anyone who wants to have anything to do with that system or say it's good.  Guess that's my tweaked reality  ;)
More likely it's that I need more sleep.  My patience/understanding to sleep ratio is inversely proportional.  But if you ever played WarCraft III on the Battle.net, you'd know why I stay up late.  That game is soo fun.  I don't ever play as the Undead race though-- that's too evil.  



But it felt good to write it, hehe.  (Oo, guess that's the flesh.  Wait, let me get back in the spirit for a moment, I don't want to miss out on my reward.  Can I get a witness?  Heheh ;D)


Ok, thanks for the gentle admonishment.  I'll try to be a bit more understanding, maybe.
kk, ty

Arthur

AMEN. But to find that unity, to discerne what the essentials really are, and to find the courage to trust and love (in christ) again. Still sorting it all out.

Hi Shaken, Joseph, and Others :)!
  Shaken:  Thank you for your post and you are expressing what most of us felt after leaving the Assembly.  I hope you find answers for your questions here, and if I can help in any way please e-mail me (or post publicaly).
   Joseph: I don't know if you understand what we just went through here on the BB.  Most of us bent over backwards trying to be tolerant and understanding of what some believed were honest individuals who were confused about the facts of the Assembly.  We later learned we were "had" by 2 young wolf pups who were both dishonest and malicious in their communications.  If Arthur appears a bit cynical this could be the reason.
  You are correct that nobody warms up to being told that they have just wasted decades of their lives in deception, but the individuals that Arthur is talking about are not coming to this BB, nor would they ever listen to him.  
   Those who come here to even consider that they might have erred have taken the first step to recovery and are well on their way!  Those who just leave, and never try to evaluate their Assembly experiences, are the biggest losers for they will never learn from their mistakes.
   I am a big believer that there is much to be gained from both understanding why the Assembly was wrong, and also learning the contrasting principles of a life based on the Grace of God in Truth.  
  To such sincere seekers here I'm sure Arthur would say, "Grace, Mercy, and Peace"!
                                                   God Bless,  Mark

Hey Shaken,

Not to worry, you are not alone! I left the SLO Assembly three years ago under a cloud of shame. I was one to help Judy to leave. I am still sorting out things! Mostly now my feelings about people. It struck me yesterday that assembly like is still strong here in SLO. There is still a brothers house. There is still the thought that some of us aren't worthy to be invited to fellowships. Keith & Gay Walker came up here to visit and I didn't hear about it til it was over. That kind of treatment smarts even after all these years. I hear that some of my friends who have left the area came back to visit but no one calls. This hurts too!

What I am learning thru all of this though.. ( Yes there is a bright spot!) The assembly taught us/me to be friendly to all in the assembly, no favorites. That isn't what life teaches us. Sometimes you have to pick and chose and stand up for yourself. I know this all sounds like grade school stuff. In my head I can justify it but not in my heart. In my heart it hurts to still be avoided.

Just know this Shaken, you aren't alone!

Heide

Hi Everyone,

Earlier this year many LBs stepped down from leadership positions in existing assemblies.  It has been 6 months now. Isn't that long enough for them to have repented and changed, such that they can now start taking up leadership roles in Christian gatherings again?

MM

No. Let them learn how to follow Christ instead of men. This is the beginning of the Christian life for them. They are practically novices, and need not entertain any ideas about themselves as leaders either now or in the future.

Hi Marcia! :)
  Me thinks you ask a question for which you already know the answer ;), but I will posit an answer regardless.
  Setting some kind of arbitrary time limit is not the answer, as it is not an issue of quantity but of quality here; that is, what is repentance in the circumstances mean?
  To repent means to "change one's mind" (Gr.- Metenoesam).  We need to define what these Assembly leaders need to repent of.  This brings us back to the old "baby and bath water" debate, and how someone who has been in a closed in group for decades can honestly evaluate their own experiences.
  There are some Assembly leaders who readily admit that GG had big problems, but insist the fruit of GG's ministry was both good and holy.  This they believe against the advice of the Bible which teaches that this can not happen.  So, this would have to be the first item for a former leader to change their mind about.
  Sincerity, or the declaration of a former leader that they "love the Lord", does not show a "changed mind" (repentance).  Neither does the lame false apology,if I have done anything to hurt you etc., qualify as a changed mind.
   True repentance does have an energetic desire to admit wrongdoing, a seeking of a separation from past erroneous teaching/practices, and earnest/specific apologies to those harmed by their past behavior; "a readiness to see justice done."(2:cor. 7:11).
    The cost of this kind of repentance will be a loss of position/power in any group and a humble acceptance of basic instruction from mature evangelical Bible teachers.  This instruction should be sought not with the idea that a former leader wants to quickly jump back into leading/teaching, but with the acceptance that maybe God doesn't ever want them to have a leadership role again.
  The axe must be laid to the root of the former leader's ambitions for a position of mastery.  God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.
                                                 God Bless,  Mark

But many claim (LBs and non-LBs) that they did not agree with all that GG preached, so they were not actually deceived by him.
Also, they saw the 'pieces of the puzzle' but were not puzzled by them.

MM

Hi Marcia! :)
  Dealing with the strange twistings and turnings of the logic of these Assembly leaders is like trying to cross exam Bill Clinton.  We have to argue minutia and parse the meaning of phrases, and this enables them to obfuscate the real questions.
  These leaders were taught, installed, and promoted within the Assemblies by GG appointed "shepherds" and we're to believe that they retained a critical and objective view all along?!  This position is ludicrous and totally unbelievable, and almost is not worthy of an answer!
  While these leaders "saw clearly the erroneous teaching/practices of GG" they were actively resisting those who attempted to question the same teaching?! ???  Interesting that those who questioned GG teaching were called "divisive", while those leaders had already judged much of GG instruction as being off base! ??? ???
  If these are the kind of answers you are getting from these guys it sounds like they are trying desperately to defend their positions as heap-big-leader.
                                 God Bless,  Mark

Marcia,

Since January I've heard people talk about how they never were impressed with GG, and how they always thought for themselves during their years in the assembly.  Whenever I hear this, I always have this nagging question:  If they were so unaffected by GG, then why didn't they PUBLICLY state their disagreement in front of the "saints"?  Sure, they may have written letters to GG addressing their concerns (remember how many "hate letters" GG says he read without responding?), sure they may have even told him privately face to face (or maybe in front of the workers who were sworn to secrecy).  But a miss is as good as a mile.  GG didn't change after being entreated countless times by mail and in personal (private) conversation.  Anyone who truly walked before God in sincerity would have seen GG's arrogance and unrepentant attitude and would have done something PUBLICLY or leave.  Many did leave, and some made their disagreements public - and those people were given the boot.

So, when people now brag about how all along they saw the puzzle pieces with such clarity, I'm not impressed unless I see what they did PUBLICLY with those pieces.  We all ignored puzzle pieces along the way.  I cannont overstress:

The extent of our failure is directly related to the number of puzzle pieces we had stuffed in the darkest corner of our conscience.

I've spoken to one former LB who I believe has truly repented.  There is such refreshing clarity when he describes why he resigned.  He has stated that he is embarrassed to admit that he was in the assembly, and even more so that he was a leader.  He does not try to impress people with the mantra, "Well, I never served George."  And you know what?  He hasn't expressed any desire to be a Christian leader either.  Someday, he might make a good one.  Only God knows.

One of GG's criteria for choosing leaders was the willingness to follow orders without regard to conscience.  Some mistakenly assume that because GG called them leaders in his ministry that somehow they still are called to be leaders somewhere else.  I think that only few will end up being true Christian leaders.

I agree with Mark's reference to 2 Cor 7.  Don't look for zeal in a person's claim that they were not deceived.  Look for zeal in admitting they were.

Jack

But Jack (or anyone else),  we're all sinners.  And we don't always agree on everything that was preached anyway, even locally.  So we just didn't agree with GG. No reason to make a public statement.
Why should GG's sin, which we were not aware of, make a difference to our continuation, as long as we 'lay aside' all that was GG-ism?

MM

Marcia,
  There were many in Nazi Germany who did not agree with Hitler's views (teaching) and practices, but kept their disagreements to themselves as they feared personal retaliation.
  Others just fell into place and took the attitude, "well, it was good for me" as the economy in Germany picked up and some moved up in the political structure.
   Either of these two kinds of individuals above were cowards who helped advance the goals of a cruel despot.  
   Those of us who kept our objections to ourselves in the Assemblies should not pat ourselves on the back, but repent in dust and ashes.
    By trying to take a pass by claiming, "we're all just sinners" is a further attempt to escape responsibility for our involvement.  A generalized confession does no good for the soul.  
    When we are dishonest with ourselves we do great harm to our emotional health, but with our relationship with God it leads to spiritual harm.  How so?  Loss of inheritance or salvation?  No!  What then?-----  A life of futility and little fruit.  God wishes to employ us in His Vineyard and by closing our ears to His call in favor of protecting our false little Assembly world we frustrate grace in our lives.
   The Bible tells us all believers will receive praise from God(I: Cor. 4:5), so all true Christians will have some fruit, but some will have more than others.  Fruit is the result of the Holy Spirit's work in our hearts and The Spirit's success is not based on our own strength or works. ( It certainly is not advanced by GG's false teaching re. "reckoning faith".)
  As we can see in Galatians 3:1-, the miraculous work of the spirit was blocked by means of their "bewitchment" through a message that taught them to "attain their goal by human effort".  
  This is very important to understand as it means that the Galatians were not only deceived re. the true nature of the teaching they also were lying to themselves!  
      How were they lying to themselves? They departed from the power of the Holy Spirit and were left to an inner life dependant on their own effort.  There are only two results to the above scenario:
  1.) Hypocrisy.               2) Open failure.
    Paul states, "Have you suffered so much for nothing----- if it was really for nothing?"  In other words they were in danger of achieving nothing in their spiritual maturity and effectiveness.
   To depart from honesty in our lives with God is to depart from a productive and healthy Christian life.  God intends his Children to have a blessed and productive life-- to the praise of the glory of His grace!
                                                   God bless,  Mark

Marcia,

There's a difference between a disagreement about doctrines like pre, mid or post rapture, etc, and a disagreement about things like GG's blatant arrogance in his preaching, tapes and writings regarding other churches.  Pride is a very serious issue, especially for a leader (1Tim 3:6-7).  Any LB that could not see GG's arrogance was blinded and deceived.  Any that did see it was even more complicit.  This issue alone needed to be addressed PUBLICLY, but because the leaders feared GG's wrath and the inevitable loss of their respect and position, they did not rock the boat.  This long-standing cowardice alone should disqualify them from being leaders.  It sounds like they are attempting to trivialize the impact GG had on them in order to maintain their power over you.  That's not a sign of repentance.

A little leaven leavens the whole lump.  GG's stamp was on everything (nothing lasted without his approval).  Old habits and ways of thinking die hard.  Besides, why would anyone want to go to a church where the leaders have just recently been leading an abusive church?  The only thing these men (or any of us) have to contribute to God's people in the near future is a warning, "DON'T DO WHAT WE DID!"  I want to go to a church where there are leaders who have led healthy spiritual lives for awhile.  I'm not saying that any church is perfect, but I'm sure there are healthy churches in your area.

By the way, have you read any books on abusive churches?  Here's a list of ones I've read.  They will help you see how we have all been deceived in the assembly.

"Churches that Abuse" by Ronald Enroth
"Recovering from Churches that Abuse" by Ronald Enroth
"Twisted Scriptures" by Mary Alice Chrnalogar
"The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" by David Johnson & Jeff VanVonderen
"Tired of Trying to Measure Up" by Jeff VanVonderen

Also, I suggest you read the accounts of the Midwest on the AssemblyReflections (formerly GeftakysAssembly) website.  They show clearly that distance did not negate the profoundly poisonous influence  GG had on leadership in ALL the assemblies.

Jack

I just want to add my two cents to the responses to Marcia's question.  I personally know of one gathering in Southern California where the leaders are saying that they were not as entangled in George's ministry as were the Fullerton leaders, and they use this as their justification for remaining in power.  I personally know the chief among these leaders.  I know what motivates him, because I've known him for a very long time.  Seeing him and others like him makes me certain that all that George built must come to a complete end.  Why? For two reasons.

1. All of our interactions with each other were tainted by what we all received of the unhealthy teaching and example of George and Betty.  For any gathering to continue would mean an eventual relapse into old abusive ways of relating to each other.

2.  The one blatant mark of every Geftakys "thing", whether it was an assembly or a ministry, was hierarchy.  We were all relegated to ranks, we all occupied rungs in the ladder of George's "thing."  And we were all trained to a greater or lesser degree to climb the ladder to the top.  All of our identity was wrapped up in the rank we achieved, and the position we were able to have over those under us.  And this in spite of the fact that the Lord said, "He who is greatest among you shall be your servant."  I believe that many of those who are still in a Geftakys group may be there because of pride - especially leaders who are unwilling to give up their positions.  For their position and rank has become their identity.  They would fall to pieces without it.  Therefore, it must all end.  They must be willing to become common men among common men and to see themselves as they really are.  They must drink the cup of humiliation to the bottom, though it burns in their hands.  As long as there remains intact anything of George's "ministry", these people can hide in it and avoid being humbled.  And there will still be the temptation  to lord themselves over others.

Mithrandir,
You've hit on what I believe is an important key...How we related to one another in the assemblies.  
I think the ministry we were under did much damage to our confidence in Christ's sufficiency for all of our lives.  He can and will forgive our sins and errors, even incredibly bad judgement, and waits to welcome the one who just admits he blew it.  
Even when we blew it by being pharisees and spiritual prigs, and/or by giving in to controlling leaders.  His grace is sufficient.
And we'll need His grace if we are ever to learn how to relate to one another now that we're out from under the hierchy system.
We're on level ground now, at the foot of the cross, all just regular saints. I think it says something about former and continuing leaders in whether they can accept that or not.
Becky

spell check...I meant "hierarchy"

Why would you want men, who have confessed to deceiving you, be put back into charge again?

I'm confused....

The man who confesses to being an alcoholic doesn't go work in a bar.....  

Heide

Greetings MM:
I hope you realize that most of us don't think that the leaders are beyond the pale of God's mercy-at least I don't.  :)

Thanks for your response M.

I have a different opinion specifically with the way I see the situation here, but may apply to other gatherings as well.
The LBs here were willing to give up their positions, but no one, not even our teenagers, wanted them to.  With all the change and 'bonding' finally happening it is very difficult to now see the condition of deception and that we were/are involved in a false religion. The only reason I remain 'out' is because I now see the assembly as being a false religion.  It is a very difficult position for me, but I must walk according to how my conscience dictates on this matter.

Geftakysism reigned in our midst, but big change has come about recently.  Many who are foggy about true spirituality will look at the appearance of things and decide to 'give it a second chance'.  Many say that they didn't really follow GG, so they weren't really deceived after all.

So all I can say is pray.
MM

Marcia,

I don't think that the leading brothers are beyond God's mercy either, as long as they truly repent, and we can know them by their works.

I'm curious.  Have you read any of the books or articles I've listed?  They will change your perspective on things.  They show how we were not a faithful remnant with heavenly vision, but (as you say) a false religion.  You will see in the books that there are many groups that are so similar to the assembly that it's creepy.

Jack

Re. books--"Churches That Abuse" by Dr. Ronald Enroth (which devotes a chapter specifically to the assembly) is now out of print.  However, we may be able to get a few copies.  Email us if you want one.

I got all those books off of Amazon.com in great condition for "used" prices.

Jack

Greetings MM:
I wd. be glad to loan you by mail my copies of Enroth's  books. You can keep them as long as you like, as I have read them several times over the years. Also, I think it's Kregel Pub's in Grand Rapids, MI that has a used bookstore with a huge inventory.

I extracted this from B.Tr0ckman's article:

Fear, Pride and Virtue:
The Weapons That Protect The Assembly

...
The weapons of fear, darkness and virtue also create another situation.  Christine had been having problems for years with certain teaching and behavior.  She had several run-ins with the leaders, where she asked tough questions and got evasive answers.  Because of the many people like John, who left earlier, she is determined that she will not  leave like a coward.  "These other people all left because they were in sin, and weren't walking with The Lord.  Well, not so with me.  I am going to leave in a scriptural way." Christine is more proud, while John was more ashamed and fearful.

Christine's idea of a "scriptural" way means that she will explain herself to the leaders first.  They may listen, but first they will get her to give her word to keep everything confidential. "We don't want you to stumble the weaker ones, sister."  This confirms what Christine suspected, she is one of the "strong ones." Because Christine is also a virtuous woman of her word, she keeps her very valid reasons for leaving a secret from everyone else.  She writes long papers, and has long discussions with the leaders about the problems she has correctly observed.  The leaders, in turn, draw out the separation talks for a month or two.  Since Christine has agreed to silence,  the leaders are free to plant seeds, share little bits of negative information, preaching messages about the sin of forsaking the gathering and other such things.  Nothing is said out loud in a frank manner, but after a few weeks of hints and nudges, all the saints know exactly who the message on " being offended and falling away" is directed towards.  Christine has fallen away.  Christine may have more courage than the leaders realized, and may share some of her reasons with people.  Perhaps she will hear a rumor about herself and correct it.  This poses no real problem for The Assembly, because they will simply say she is being divisive.  The members' sense of virtue will lead them to shun her, because they have been taught to do this with people who are "divisive," and Christine's own sense of virtue will cause her to remain silent.  "You gave your word, Christine."

In Christine's case, The Assembly has been able to paint her as a divisive sinner, and she is unable to do anything about it, because of her strong sense of virtue.  She may have written long, scathing letters to the leadership, but the saints will never know, and the web of fear and darkness is only strengthened.  Her own sense of virtue only intensifies the weapons of darkness, because of it, she restrains herself from exposing them.  "God will judge them," she says. While God certainly will judge each and every  person,  her virtue has made it impossible for her to do her part and speak up.  She is not able to resist the Devil, or to stand against evil, because she believes it to be a violation of her virtue. Perhaps she also senses a little shame for not being as brave as she thought she was.  She tries to put the past behind her, and goes away.  Christine may be OK in the future, she was responsible to give a scriptural reason for her departure, but she failed in her other responsibility, which is to warn others.  

If a little leaven leavens the whole lump, don't we have a responsibility to warn others about the leaven?

...

...To say nothing of the all-important question of whose aegis all that George built was constructed under...I stand amazed at those clinging to a manifestly rejected work of unspeakable evil...
Verne

Is George Geftakys saved and if so will he be held to account before the judgement seat of Christ as per 2Cor 5:10?

James----

I believe George is saved. I was reading 1 John and it says that no one teaches that Jesus Christ is the Son of God or that he is come in the flesh unless led by the Spirit of God.

I think George was led astray long ago though, and allowed himself to be used to spread both heresy and much bondage. He will stand before the Judgement seat of Christ and answer for the things done in the body just like everyone else. I think he needs to continue to be sharply rebuked until he repents, but I think we need to pray for him to come to that place. The Lord is far more willing to forgive and bring to repentance, than to judge. "For God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."(2 Peter).

--Joe

I'm not sure if George is saved or not...What I do know is that he is obnoxious, irritating, and raised two complete losers for sons.

Joe, your post on July 1st under the 'Assembly history and why it's important' thread answered this very well, I think.  From your Wuest study on 2nd Peter and how you saw the real mixture of truth and error was what kept many of us under this ministry for so long, when we had a number of warning light experiences.
It would make a good mini-article for the main web site, Phill thought.
Maybe edit the federal prison part. :) :)
BW

Thanks. I'll go back and check the July 1st post out.

God bless,  Joe

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
James 2:19


George Geftakys fits that most frightful of all New Testament categories referred to by Jude as TWICE DEAD...in my humble opinion the proper petition regarding him is for God's swift judgment...
Verne

Is GG saved? We have, yes he is saved but needs to repent, don't know if he is saved, and he may not be saved as per the demons believe and tremble.

This is a serious question. Those of you in the know please enlighten.

That portion in Jude seems to be refering to the unbeliever. Jude 19 says they have not the Spirit.

What do you think, James?

GG always said that he got saved when, as a young marine, he was walking down the road one night in Goleta and heard singing coming from a church.  It so touched his heart that he knelt down at the side of the road and received the Lord.

Don't know if there was any repentance involved.  But has anyone ever seen GG repent for anything since then either?  That is an issue that makes his salvation questionable.

How is it possible that he knew the Scripture so well? Did he treat it like a career 'front' and taught himself from other writings?

MM

So Margaret from your knowledge and experience would you then doubt he is saved?

Yes, I am saying that from my knowledge and experience, it seems doubtful.  

No one knows whether GG is saved or not.  However, the Bible says,

2 Tim 2:17  And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort,  18  who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.  19  Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from  iniquity ."

To the best of my knowledge, carefully watching George for 17 years, I have never seen George depart from iniquity.  There are multiple witnesses who knew him longer, and before I did who say much the same thing.  Recent events, and his whacko letters of retirement fit the pattern of an unsaved person.  There is absolutely no demonstration of the Holy Spirit in his life.

How could a person give a "blessed message," fresh baked in "Heaven's Kitchen," when part of that message involved immoral behavior?  What about all those letters to,  "The redeemed of The Lord,"  where GG admonished us to maintain the testimony, and allow a deep inward working of the cross in order to be available for the master's call, blah blah blah.  How could he write these letters all those years when he knew and the women knew what else went on in the typing....

George is an unbeliever, and needs to get saved.


Brent

Man did he ever brainwash us, and we fell for it hook line and sinker.
He brainwashed us about:
being spiritual: knelt down at the side of the road.
not worldly: no TV because he was not going to invite the world into his living room.
I remember him telling us at a MWS that his kids were walking with the Lord and now he was working on his grandchildren -- probably a smoke screen to distract from DG's situation.
He even brainwashed us about needing our brain washed, and he was the one who was going to do it, and all the saints said AMEN!!

And we actually thought that he was a godly man.

I think I need my brain washed again.
MM

Brent and Everyone,

Do you think that these verses apply to GG's condition?

HEB 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
HEB 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
HEB 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.
HEB 6:7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls upon it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
HEB 6:8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.


Marcia

Just to clarify, Heb. 6 is not speaking of losing one's salvation.  It is speaking of someone who has been in the church in the midst of God's blessing, has partaken of the Lord's supper, even, and yet is not a believer and eventually falls away.

I never saw it that way before, but that is an interesting perspective.
So then 'partakers of the Holy Spirit' does not necessarily meen 'indwelling of the Holy Spirit' ??
And how can an unbeliever be enlightened if he hasn't believed??

Marcia

I don't remember that he said he was a young marine.  I do distinctly remember hearing him say that he was 15.  He went to a church meeting in SB, heard the good news, then as he was walking in an orchard on the way home it was like a light dawned on him.  He felt a rush of joy in knowing, "I'm saved!".  It was so wondrous it was like the angels were singing as he ran through the orchard that night saying, "I'm saved!"

At least, that is what he shared at a seminar about 5 or 6 years ago and again at a HB gospel tent meeting four years ago.  Maybe he's changed his story over the years 'cause he made it up in the first place.  I dunno.

MM---

What Margaret says is held by many reputable teachers--
John Owen for one(an old Puritan scholar who wrote volumes of very godly works). Owen says that these people mentioned were in the midst of the church, benefited from it and it's blessings, heard the Word, but were never truly regenerated in heart. "He maketh his rain to fall on the just (the saved) and the unjust(the unsaved)". Rain falling on the just WILL bring forth fruit, on the unjust briars and weeds(see the reference to the rain in Heb. 6:4-8). I n v. 9 it says "But we are persuaded better things of YOU brethren"(referring to saved people, not apostates as he has just mentioned). of course, as in all things that are unsure, there are others who teach these are believers who can be lost, etc.---but I go with what Owen and many others like him teach.

As for George, I had said I think he was saved because of what he taught. His main teaching was that you needed to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and there was no salvation in any other name but Jesus. Many of his heretical teachings dealt with issues regarding the life of the church and corporate testimony, and with "works based righteousness" to grow in Christ after salvation. I never heard him teach that you are "saved" by your works.
However, I did not know George personally, did not observe him in life for any extended period of time, so he could very well be the opposite of what I thought.

I know it is possible for a teacher to preach the Gospel and be a total charlatan--see Robert Tilton, Peter Popov, etc.
as examples of people who preach receiving Christ, etc. but are obviously in it all for the money. Maybe, I just don't want to believe I was following an unsaved teacher for allt he time in the Assembly---it could boil down to a matter of pride. Only God knows George's heart for sure though.

--Joe

Thanks Joe, your explanation really helps.

Re. apostates - what is an apostate? I always believed that an apostate is one who has fallen away from the faith.

Arthur. The version of GG's salvation story I remember is similar to yours and Margaret's together.  GG was 16 and he left a Baptist meeting and knelt down beside the road and prayed, on his way home, after refusing to kneel down and pray at the church with the minister.

MM

You have to take this passage in context of the whole book of Hebrews.  Remember who this book is written to--the Hebrews.
Before reading Heb 6, you have to read Heb 3 and 4 to understand this passage.

Take a look at Heb 4:2 and you'll see who he is talking about, i.e. the children of Israel in times past.  

For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Notice, "not being mixed with faith". They heard the word, they tasted the goodness of God, etc. but did not believe.

Don't let the words, "enlightened", "tasted of the heavenly gift", " made partakers of the Holy Ghost", "tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come" throw you for a loop.  

Remember, in I Cor 10:1-5 we read 1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness."

The children of Israel had all of those things, but since they did not believe, they fell away and perished.

Verses 7 and 8 of Heb 6 contain an illustration that is very familiar to the Jews.  Reference Isa 5:1-7

What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? 5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down: 6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.

Again, the point is that God did everything he could for Israel and yet they hardened their hearts and would not believe, and for this, God cursed them.

In this case in Heb 6, he is referring to anyone who would go back to the basic religious practices and beliefs of Judaism listed in verses 1 and 2.  

In addition to taking this passage in context of the whole book, you also need to take it in the context of the main message of the entire Bible, which is the good news of Jesus Christ.  Salvation by grace through faith.

The key is faith in Jesus.  If you acknowledge that you're a sinner and that you need Jesus and he's the one--the savior, he died for our sins--will we fall away?  If we refuse to believe in him, refuse the gift of God--even after hearing the good news, then yeah, we will be like the Israelites who heard the word but did not believe and did not repent.
But we do say that we need Jesus.   We're not saying that we can attain righteousness by our own works.  We need him and seek his help and salvation.

Look at what the next verse in Heb 6 reads, after the passage you quoted. Heb 6:9,

But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Conclusion: George Geftakys is not saved.

Is the fruit of his labour saved?

By "fruit of his labour" are you referring to us--people who were in the assembly, or to whatever work it was that he did e.g. preaching, missionary trips, etc.?

Arthur,

Any of his work, ministry, emmissariee, etc.

Those who responded to his ministry, his books, his counsel, his visits. Are they saved?

I was saved by the gospel that was preached to me from the Word of God by my co-worker(NOT GG).

Marcia

Re: his works -   I doubt Testimony to Jesus will be up there in heaven.  In other words, obviously whatever he did out of motivation to gain power, money, etc. were bad deeds.  And I think that about sums up his life.  Was there ever a time that he helped somebody out of compassion?

Re: people in the assembly - It depends on the individual. Some probably never were saved.  Some are saved, but we wandered away from the fold into the clutches of this wolf for a time.  But God has rescued us!  Thank you Lord.


To this day, I've heard there are people still listening to George preach.  

There are others that were part of assemblies that recently disbanded who think that the assembly was basically good, just that George had some problems.  

And there are others who realize that the assembly was a cult, that we were deceived, and that we need to forsake and reject the assembly, recover from our experiences and be with normal believers.  

Did anything good come from the assemblies and our involvement in it? Is there anything we can say, "that is from the Lord?" Was the last 10, 20, 30 years (wherever one fits in) a complete waste? Were the values and the standards we taught our children in vain?

Hi James

Personally speaking, a lot of good things came from my involvement with the Assembly, just as a lot of bad things did as well.  

For a long time I only saw the bad and I was miserable as I processed it.  Then, a dear sister-friend, who loved me through my Assembly days (no small task) gently prodded me to see the good that came of it!  

I did grow in my faith, I made wonderful friends who remain to this day, my prayer life flourished... these are just a few examples.  

I also became extremely judgemental, elitist regarding other Christians, gossippy.... etc. etc.  I had a LOT of forgiveness that I had to ask for!

It's most likely different for everyone, and sometimes the bad seems to outweigh the good.  

As for the "values and standards" that children were taught, parents probably need to pray for grace - which isn't new because we need His grace in any situation!  I'm sure there was a mix of Assembly teachings and bible teachings, but it can't be all bad.  No parent gets it all right either!  But, I must qualify this by telling you I don't have children, so I may be speaking out of turn.   :)

Anyhow, I hope ex-assemblyites everywhere get to the place where they've processed what's happened, see the good, as well as the bad, and can be at peace with it.  It's a painful process, but necessary - and we don't have to do it alone!  Yay Jesus!

That's one perspective anyway....

James,  I have been wondering that very same thing ever since I left.

When I first got out, I thought I had gained soooo much.  But the more I'm out, the more it seems to be the opposite is true--that I've lost.

We read the Bible a lot.  But we were taught a twisted slant that needs to be corrected now.

We had a disciplined lifestyle.  But with that we had ingrained in us a legalistic mindset of fear and bondage that needs to be cleared and healed.

We preached the gospel to countless thousands and may have even got some to stay in fellowship.  But it was a fellowship that was detrimental to their and our spiritual health.  Something from which we must recover now.


What we did learn was to recognize and watch out for false teachers.  But we have also learned to be suspicious and not trust anyone anymore for fear they may hurt us.


You tell me, did we gain anything?  Lord knows.

Arthur

My attitude at this point is why bother?  If you agree that it was a cult then leave it behind and start afresh, with a humble attitude of inquiry.  Some ex-assembly-ites actually think that they have something valuable to contribute to other gatherings and so they have been dispersed to do so. this is a very dangerous position because they could infect other gatherings with their false teachings and attitudes.

Anyway, I know that I'm saved. And I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able...

Marcia

Are we saying that when we gathered to worship the Lord that it wasn't legitimate?

Reading some of this general discussion brings up an interesting question in my mind. What if George wasn't saved and this is all just a huge con? If George wasn't saved we really can't ask him to repent... Maybe that is a better con because he can come back and say that through all of this he has seen the light, the real light mind you and he has seen the pattern and is ready to share. Sound familiar?

Or perhaps GG is saved and was just corrupted by his own evil works?

Heide

P.S. What about all the people he has driven away from Christ?

Hi Everyone! :)
  Different former members always have a different point of view re. how to classify the Assembly/ GG.  To some there was much positive mixed with some negative, or vice versa, but an individual's experience doesn't really tell us what the motives or the eternal state of GG were (they can give us clues:"by their fruit we can know them")  
  My question is:  How does God see it?  Is there anyway to see things the way that He might see them in this situation?  The answer to these questions are far more helpful than individual experience and can only be discovered by understanding how Jesus and the Apostles handled certain errors and problems in the early church.  These errors and problems were identified as systems that the NT calls "the spirit of error".
   Jesus main religious enemies were the Pharisees, and in MT. 23 Jesus gives us a clear unvailing of this evil merit system.  Paul dealt mainly with Judaizers, who also proposed a system that was contrary to grace (Gal.).  John dealt with the emergence of the Gnostics, who taught a false mysticism.
   I can see much of the above errors in Assembly practice and teaching and as such I must conclude that the Assembly was not just a church gone bad, but an erroneous system, like a cult.
    A church out of the way is entreatable when God calls to them to repent (my sheep hear my voice).  The issue isn't making mistakes, but not being able to receive correction.  Wisdom that comes from above is "easy to be entreated".
   Those that wish to "reform" the Assembly, instead of repent(change their thinking) re. the Assembly will never lay the axe to the root,  and as such out of the ground will spring a plant similar to the old Assembly tree.
   Was there something "good" in the religion of the Pharisees?  Yes, they were monotheists, had the Bible, supported morality/familly values, etc., but that is not the question to ask.  The question to ask is, How did Jesus view them, and what was the key for deliverance from these groups?  Undoubtedbly, the spirit of truth is revealed in the Gospel of the grace of God and all those who were emeshed in an evil system that distorted that Gospel must find renewal and restoration in an understanding of that message.  
   It is difficult to hear that message if I don't seek instruction outside of the old system.  Assembly principles of Biblical interpretation and erroneous methods of hearing God's Word will only further cloud the understanding.  "Come out from among them and be ye separate."
                       God Bless,  Mark

Was it 'legitimate' the way God looks at it?  We were all deceived and sincerely believed that it was 'legitimate'. There are many in other religions who are 'sincerely' serving God as well, but are deceived. The assemblies were 'controlled' by a false teacher, George Geftakys.

2Pet 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2Pet 2:2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
2Pet 2:3a and in their greed they will exploit you with false words;

GG lived a lie prior to and for the duration of his "ministry". We were decieved into believing that he was a godly man. The source of his ministry was corrupt; truth intermingled with error/lies. That which GG 'touched' was not of God.

To quote another, 'God in his mercy delivered us from George.'  So now we have the opportunity of learning anew from other Christian sources.  The BB is a helpful resource as most, if not all, posters are ex-assembly-ites.

That's all for now,
Marcia

Mark, are you implying that the "church" at Galatia wasn't really a church (false legalism)?  Or Colossae (false mysticism)? Or Laodicea (smugness)?  Or is it that God is not pleased with such errors in the churches and sends correction, which if not heeded, removes the testimony?

Well, I know that I worshiped from my heart--still do.  God knows it too. That's as legitimate as it gets.  
And I know I wasn't the only one who worshiped from the heart out of genunine thanksgiving and praise.


Arthur

Those churches were started by Paul or one of his associates that had his approval.  Paul was a true apostle.  George started the assembly.  I think that's a big difference.

Some of the people's belief's were real.  That's about it.
There were Christians there, more than two or three.  So we met--within the assembly,  despite the assembly.  
There were some blemishes in our feasts of charity, though.


Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you. II Pet 2:13b

These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear.  Jude 1:12

Hi Margaret! :)
  Yes, and thanks Arthur, as this was the same answer that I was going to give.  The NT churches you mentioned were started by Paul and began with a proper foundation, but the Assemblies were started on a foundation of deceitful handling of the word of God, abusive control, and deceit by GG in his personal life.
  That there were/are sincere Christians in the Assembly there can be no doubt, but as a group it operated in a manner as manipulative and abusive as a cult.  
  If GG had started the group before he had been involved in immorality, and without his abusive control of the members, there may have been some claim to a proper foundation.
  Paul and Jesus did warn Galatia and Laodicea that if they continued to follow false teachers they would not experience God's endorsement.  Though individual believers would still be saved the groups above would not be recognized as gathering in the Name of Jesus Christ, and consequently would not be a true church.
  The teaching and practices of the Assembly were not matters of ignorance or weakness, but of willful systematic evil that brought serious offense to God's little ones.  To attempt to pick through the "bath water" to find a baby worth not throwing out is difficult for those who have been out for years and an impossible task for present members.
  One of the great values of understanding our past involvement is the wisdom and discernment we can gain.  By seeing how GG twisted principles of interpretation, minimized salvation, taught a false holiness, and abusively controlled the members, we then can see in bright contrast how God would have us to read His word, see the greatness of our salvation, live a Christian life based on grace, and learn how to love one another.
   This can add a depth to our lives that God can use to bless others in a way that we would never have been able to do without our Assembly sufferings. Those who just leave without the above consideration are missing a great opportunity.
                           God Bless,  Mark
   

Hi folks,

I have been on a trip, and am currently staying at the Sable's in NC.

I don't think that scripture teaches that there is a difference between a church and its testimony.

In Revelation, it speaks of removing the candlestick.  That has LITERALLY come to pass.  Those cities, except for Smyrna, don't exist today, only ruins.

I know of only a Catholic Church at Smyrna. Is the candlestick removed?  How does one know?

Thomas Maddux

Many refer to the heresy taught by George. Particularly works based righteousness. I haven't heard all his seminars nor have I read all his books but I have to say I have never heard him say one works to the kingdom.

I just quickly picked up a couple of his books to see what he does say.

Once for all Reality:
"We receive His victory by faith." Pg 26
"As we walk the christian life by faith He forms us." Pg 29
"We aquire holiness by faith." Pg 30
"Money or talent or trying to live a good life cannot achieve this holiness for us." Pg 30

Significance of the Blood of Christ
"The Lord has made all provsion for our full salvation. By faith inour Lord Jesus' completed work we will come to the most holy place." Pg 15

These are just a few quotes. You may think I am defending George. I am not. I am just quoting what his books say. It appears to be accurate.

Ah yes, there must be enough truth so that people will follow him.  A lot less would be deceived if this wasn't the case.  But remember, it only takes a little leaven to leaven the whole loaf.

1 Corinthians 5

1   It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2   And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3   For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4   In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5   To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6   Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7   Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8   Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9   I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10   Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11   But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12   For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13   But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

I am not questioning his behavior and the consequence of it. I am just wondering about the reported heresy.

This article describes some of the heresy:

http://www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/TeachingPractice/GGPublishedWritings.htm (http://www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/TeachingPractice/GGPublishedWritings.htm)

Hi James! :)
  One of the most difficult things for us in trying to understand GG's teaching is in comprehending the subtleties and contradictions in his confused ramblings.
  You mentioned that some of GG's quotes seem to support an orthodox view of salvation in that he uses the word "faith" in re. to attaining to same vs. language that would seem to support works.
  One must understand how GG understands faith re. salvation first to see how his theology is off base.  As the article by Lee Irons that Steve Fortescue highlighted (please read it) shows GG taught one kind of faith for "initial" salvation vs. another definition for the word faith for entering fully into a complete salvation.
   This second kind of faith that GG describes transforms the Biblical meaning of faith from simple reception of a free gift to one of an act of will that takes possession of a reward.  Though GG says our full sanctification is all of Christ's work in fact he teaches we must actualize this holiness in our lives through our own devout effort or we will lose out on "so great salvation".
  Such phrases as "reckon", "lay hold", "put to death", etc. are said to be acts of faith that achieve our perfection.  The bible teaches that the above actions are a result of a full and complete salvation and not the means to achieve salvation.
   GG attempted to diffuse the criticism of his teaching by making statements like, "not that we can lose our salvation", but by his making the freely given part of salvation almost worthless in fact he establishes his objective of encouraging Christians to live their lives before God on the basis of their performance.  That this is the error found in Galatians there can be no doubt, and that such teaching is toxic to the lives of believers can be attested to over and over again by former members.
                                            God Bless,  Mark

James, that is a fair and valid question.

I have wondered the same thing, since I don't remember him specifically saying too many things that I thought were way off (the "God created man on the 8th day" one was obvious, but other than that).

There is verifiable evidence in George's writings of his heresy (some of which have already been alluded to--in the articles on the GA site).  I personally have studied Once for All Reality and found the heresy, but it's been a while and I'll have to look it up again post it for you.  I do remember that he starts off good with sound teaching, but there is a subtle twist midway through.

The main problem in the assembly was not in what was said most of the time, but what was inferred.  There was what was said, but then there was meant and what was practiced.  The two were totally different.  Little hints and suggestions here and there and then actions taken all made it clear to us that what was meant was way different that what was said. It was a veil and a deception.  

Have you see the good articles that Brent wrote on this, check them out here:

http://www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/TeachingPractice/CodeOfSilence.htm

http://www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/TeachingPractice/LeavenOfPharisees.htm

Stephen---

Thanks for that link. That is an excellent article to read concerning the false teachings of Brother George.

---Joe

When I was first saved I just wanted to serve my Lord who loved me so much He would die for me. In the church I attended I saw some dear people who were humble servants. They loved God and it was demonstrated by their love for others. There was also ones there who were very lazy and slothful christians. Had no stomach for various ministries or for the word of God. The preaching from the pastor would always refer to our salvation and how we all would be receiving the same glory of heaven. In my simplicity I had a difficulty reconciling the teaching that no matter how one lived on earth, the salvation and inheritance would be the same for everyone.

When I first heard that salvation from the wrath which is to come is different than the salvation into the eternal kingdom it seemed to answer some of those questions I had. Biblical verbs like strive, run, pursue gave meaning to the concept of reward. I could see there were faithful ones that would be rewarded and unfaithful ones that would miss out as in 1 Cor 3.

The problem with the assembly to me was the practice. Control, demands, guilt. That wasn't faith in response to God's love. I did not think and still don't think that the assembly doctrine/theology was cultic. I haven't been convinced by the articles by Lee Irons either. I think there is a lot of things that are tainting his perspective.

You make the distinction between those who are humble servants and those who are lazy with no interest in the word or work of God.

Which category would you place yourself in?

I would imagine that a humble servant would not be so bold as to evaluate the lives of other christians.

A lazy christian would study the word of God carelessly and come to conclusions based on what he felt was right rather than what the Bible really says.  His practice would also be decided based on what he felt was right, so that he could well end up acting just like the Pharisees, putting on a good show.

Matt. 16:6
Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Jesus' warning is because it is so deceptive.  If you look up all the verses that talk about the Pharisees, you will find that they are a pretty good description of what's wrong with the assembly.

Here is an interesting verse in light of the question of rewards:

Matt 20:12
... These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

That is a great point! There may be some others you could chastise with that as well.

Hi James!
  I wrote a book based on  my own involvement in the Assembly (never published) called "On Fire".  It revealed my own desire to be involved with a group of "serious" Christians.  In an attitude similar to yours, in the little church I was attending before I came into the Assembly, I despised the weak commitment of the members and even went forward at a Gospel invitation for the express purpose of exhorting the members.
   My attitude was elitist and snobbish, and certainly without any kindness or compassion.  The people there noticed it and as such received nothing from my urgings.
   There was something very wrong in my own heart that caused me to look down my nose at other Christians and decide that they didn't measure up.  We cannot interpret the Word of God based on a desire to promote a merit relationship with God that seems to meet a perverted need we have.  From just such superior attitudes have sprung innumerable cults, and with these attitudes corresponding doctrine to support their claim to superiority.
   My 20 years in the Assembly were the means to finally show me that salvation is by grace alone and that I'm not superior to my brethren--- It is all to the praise of the glory of His grace!  To despise that message and to seek to add a merit component reveals more about our own hearts' than maybe we care to admit.
                                        God Bless,  Mark

I agree with Mark and Stephen.  

When I first started going to assembly meetings and even before that I was wondering what was wrong with most of the Christians I knew.  
They didn't seem to be very zealous for what was obviously the most important thing in all eternity, the very purpose for which they were created, to serve Christ Jesus our Lord who loved us so much he gave his life for us!  It seemed like they just didn't see it.  Seemed like they were careless about it, casual, unaffected.  

When I joined the assembly I thought, "Man, these guys really know their Bibles!  So many Christians I know can't tell me Hezekiah from II Hesitations.  And these guys seem to live such holy lives, just like the Bible says.  They don't just say they're Christians, they're actually doing something about it.  Bible studies, prayer meetings, witnessing(wow!), open air preaching(double wow!), worship(real worship in God's appointed way, not like worldy Christian worship-triple wow!), just like the Bible says we should do--real devotion to Christ.  That's what I want to do..."

At the time, I was so assured in my heart that this is right, the right thing to do and the right way of looking at it.  But in hindsight, I see that I was wrong.  I see that being so proud in condemning some believers while thinking that others were so great is the opposite of what Jesus stood for.  I believe that God used the assembly in my life to humble me from that pride.  I still have a long ways to go.


23 And they began to enquire among themselves, which of them it was that should do this thing. 24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest. 25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. 26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.  Luke 22:23-26  

Interesting that this arguement arose just as Jesus was telling his disciples how he was going to give himself for them, and then told them that one would betray him.  First they began suspecting each other of who it might be, and then the arguement arose of who was the greatest.  Doesn't that just describe how we came to our conclusions of superiority?

And apparently, they had a problem with this kind of attitude because they argued about it more than once.

33 And he came to Capernaum: and being in the house he asked them, What was it that ye disputed among yourselves by the way? 34 But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who should be the greatest. 35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all. 36 And he took a child, and set him in the midst of them...  Mark 9:33-36a

And then there was that time when the mother of James and John asked Jesus that her sons be at the right and left hands of Jesus in the kingdom, and the other 10 disciples were indignant with them.  

And also there is this warning.
Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. Matt 16:6

I think the point I made is getting lost.

As a young christian I had observations. They were not condemnations, merely observations. The area I had concern about was the doctrine that if you asked Jesus into your heart you will receive the same reward from God as all other christians regardless of how one lived their life.

I have a difficulty with that teaching. It does not appear to line up with 2Cor 5:10
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

From that is it accurate to say God has reward to those who are faithful and something less for those who are not?

Ok, I see what you are saying.  
Your question is about rewards.  Will we be rewarded (and flip side, punished) for our behavior here on earth?  
That's quite a study.  You know, I have the same questions--I'd like to look into this more.  Let me know what you find as well, please.
I will say that, from what I've studied so far, my view has changed from what it was in the assembly.  I no longer am anxious about my performance determining my status in heaven, but rather rest secure in God's sovereign control over my life.  
I do not worry about what rewards that I'll receive or not receive.  I figure that God has a plan for my life, that I'll just walk in the good works that God has prepared for me to walk in, out of gratitude to him.  

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."


On the ga website, they have several quotes about rewards that are worthy of notice.

http://www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/TeachingPractice/QuotationsOnRewards.htm

Hi James!
  I don't think that we really are getting off the subject, but it could be that we're having trouble with our semantics here, and that is to be expected because of what we were taught in the Assembly.  Semantics (what words mean) is a discussion that can be very profitable.
  When you used the word, "salvation" and split it into "salvation from wrath" and "salvation unto reward" you made an Assembly distinction that is not found in the Bible.  Salvation is a separate category from rewards and needs to have a clear line drawn between them.  When we start to mix these two distinct teachings we veer into the error of Galatianism.
   The Bible most certainly urges obedience, and an energetic following of Christ, but this ability comes through the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives.  Here is where it becomes tricky:  How much is of God and how much is of my effort?  Easy formulas for "successful discipleship", where we attempt to actualize the Spirit in our lives fail because we don't understand the depth of our own personality (and I don't suggest we try to plummet those depths ourselves).
   Grace in the Christian life, as in new birth, is a miraculous work of God that will always end up redounding to the glory of God, and not our efforts.  All crowns will be cast at His feet when we get there, for there will be a recognition that even our rewards were from Him!
   Re. the Assembly being heretical/ and or cultic:  It is difficult to have a discussion from the Bible on whether Assembly teaching is cultic, for that is a non-biblical term.  The confusion of grace by telling Christians they need to see salvation split into two components is clearly heretical as described in Galatians.  We must question our own thinking on this if our reaction is "we don't like that teaching" vs. what the Bible teaches.
  Mormonism and Jehovah Witnesses began because they were concerned by the low level of commitment they saw in evangelical churches and a reaction against what they saw as "cheap grace".  Paul saw the Judaizers of Galatians (and in the rest of the NT) concern for a "more serious" commitment as a very dangerous shift away from the centrality of the work of Jesus Christ.
   The Bible does not separate teaching and practice the way many cult watching groups do (orthodoxy and orthopraxy).  Paul lists "heresy" as a work of the flesh (sinful nature), which means the determined mind set to not see what the Bible clearly teaches is not an intellectual problem, but something wrong in the heart of the proponent of false doctrine.  The desire to "be somebody" in a religious sphere was a mindset that Paul in Philp. 3 declares that he had to abandon in order to understand and pursue a life pleasing to God.  
  You mention that the Assembly was "cultic" only in practice,but not in doctrine, but the two always go together.  Right understanding comes from the wisdom that descends from above and always produces good fruit and vice versa.(James 3)
                                     God Bless, Mark

I think Mark is absolutely correct in what he says below and especially regarding rewards. Rewards at the end will be seen as a "gift" from God also, not something we have "earned".

It all goes to motivation I think. When you really think about it, what will be the greater reward? The crown the Lord has in his hands for you, or the smile on his face as he gives it to you? That smile alone will cause you to throw that crown at his feet--the crown is worth so far much less than the Lord himself.


--Joe

Is there any reward greater than the Lord Jesus Christ and God the Father?

At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings.

I don't see varying degrees of either service or reward here.  It's either-or and the reward is without compare.

If you or I were not to get to sit "at the right hand and at the left hand" of Christ in the Kingdom, would we be depressed for all eternity?  I don't think so.  I think we'd still be so happy just to be with Jesus.  

Re. JAMES' comments:
  You have made some good observations & have asked some thought-provoking questions. That's why this BB is useful!
   As for the answers, it take a while... how long have you been "out?"  A few days/months?  It takes longer than many think to merely digest all of what transpired, let alone get re-programmed...
   As you fellowship w/other Christians (not just the same saints you've been around for 5/10/20+ yrs or so...) you'll be changed.  As you hear preaching from godly, HONEST preachers (at church, on the radio, etc)  your perspective will be changed.  As you read  books about controlling & sometimes abusive groups, you'll be changed.  [This one is important because many who have left the asembly won't dare to read books like this because they don't think much was wrong w/the group. They would STILL be there if it weren't for the G. family.]  
    Most important is the willingness to say, "God--I don't know what is really true... what about this and that... I was taught such and such... is that really right? I want to know the TRUTH."  Sure, you can pull a few phrases out of GG's books that are true. Yep. I can do the same thing w/the Book of Mormon, the Watchtower literature and the Koran!      
     And be willing to admit that we were wrong about many things.  As we stop clinging to a pattern/vision/way of meeting/do this/don't do that/celebrate this but not that.... mentality..... we can START clinging to the Lord and rest in Him   :)      

You got me there!  On rereading my post I can see that it is pretty bad.  Go ahead and chastise me: I deserve it; and perhaps forgive me too, if I can dare to ask such a thing.

---

Maybe the question of rewards is better viewed on an individual basis, and not as a matter of comparison with others.  Jesus told Peter not to be concerned with what John's lot in life would be from the Lord.  Paul reminded the Corinthians of the folly of comparisons in II Cor. 10:12.

John 21:20-22
Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?  Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?  Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

My unbelieving brother checked out geftakysassembly and rickross and emailed me this perspective:

quote--
It was the culture of papacy and a poor interpretation of scripture that facilitated David.
--end-quote


Interesting!!

Marcia

PS just to clarify - this is a blood brother, not in fellowship, but has eyes to see.

I agree with your brother and go one step further. There were many people involved in the assemblies who absolutely knew what they were seeing and hearing was unscriptural and ungodly. They knew it. The reason for their inaction was a paralysing cowardice!
This is understandable if one was unwilling to pay the price for standing for truth. Look at the stupidity of the brother who thinks he is somehow more holy for shunning you for your rejection of a devil like George Geftakys. Go figure...
Verne

Stephen's point about rewards being an individual thing is a thought worth following. If we will be judged for deeds done "in the body" it is obvious God gave us different bodies and so may expect different things from each of us. So comparison to each other is dangerous. Now that I'm in a healthy, large, evangelical gather we (the church) are still wrestling with the concept of rewards. The NT is clear about salvation by grace through faith alone, but is also replete with the notion that something significant ought to be done with that reality. I just personally have not found it yet. After so long in the assembly I don't trust my own thinking.

p.s. C.S.Lewis has a great little essay called something like New Men not Nice People. The jist of it is a person from a loving family who gets saved might be an awfully nice person, but they've had an awfully nice life. Whereas a person from an abusive background who became an alcholic and then gets saved, but can't bring himself to trust people enough to talk to them let alone help them may have actually made deeper strides into grace than the other guy just by forcing himself to go to church. The problems with the assembly where the same thing was expected from every person become apparent.

"The teachings, if taken one at a time, are not that bad, but the preponderance of elitist mentality coupled with the intensity of the practice brings them out in sharp relief."

"The ministry needs to change, drastically, but it does not deserve to be labeled a cult."

"The basic doctrines like The Trinity, Justification by faith, The Person and work of Christ, original sin and others are fundamental and sound. The group has a few aberrant teachings, which we will discuss below, but for the most part the uniqueness of the Geftakys group is in practice, not doctrine."

These were quotes from the Rick Ross site. The author was an assembly member for 17 years.

I would like to make 2 observations here Verne.

1.  Many of us were sincerely deceived and, therfore, unsure of how the pieces of the puzzle fit together.

2. The brother in the Lord, who is shunning me, is not shunning me because of my rejection of a devil like GG, but because he does not agree with me that though GG ruled then it follows that the assembly was/is a cult.

Lord bless,
Marcia

I am the author of this article, and most of the stuff on RickRoss.  When I wrote this, I hadn't fully understood everything, but I was also wanting to remain as balanced and calm as possible.  I also hadn't been excommunicated yet...

Now, I still maintain that the Assemblies were cultic in the cultural sense, but Christian in the sense that the members were truly saved.

It is true that the fundamental doctrines of the Trinity, are sound.  It is what happens after a person gets saved where George goes way off.  The article that this person is quoting was meant to be an accurate, balanced account of what it is like to be fully committed to the group.  I still think it is accurate.  I never said what drastic change looked like in the article, but certainly repentance is at the top of the list of changes.

Brent

Are you the guy with the yatch, and the originator of the zone diet fad?  What else have you done? :)

Sadly, when it comes to Geftakys busting, I have personally done most of what has been done, especially up unitl January of this year.  Now, things are evening out some, with many others getting involved and not being so fearful to say or do something.

It would be foolish to conclude that everyone should start a website, or write articles, like I did.  However, I know there are many of you out there, who want something to be done, who are looking for a champion.  I know this, because you call or email me and urge me to "do something about this."  "This" is often across the continent!

I would like to encourage all of you to stand up and take responsiblility/blame for what you have been involved in.  Warn others, confront, rebuke, expose, encourage...whatever you do, don't be passive, helpless and pathetic.  Stand up for the truth and expose the unfruitful works of darkness.

The righteous are as bold as lions, but the wicked flee when no man pursues.

Brent

I say amen to the statements made above.  Let's be proactive in warning others about existing Geftakys groups - especially the more dangerous ones.  In our warnings, we need to have our facts straight, and we need to be objective in our statements, but we also need to speak up!  Imagine the damage that may be done to unsuspecting newcomers who come under the influence of some of the people we have known, in some of the groups we have known - if we don't speak up.

mithrandir

Yes, and the first step is to use our names and tell people who we are, so they can take what we have to say seriously!   ;)  Not to rush you into rash behavior, but even geftakysservants have a right to face their accusers, and if we are going to accuse them, they have a right to know who we are!

Brent

Okay, Brent, I'll take your suggestion.  I picked the name mithrandir for two reasons:
1.  Some people I call dear friends are still in a Geftakys group, and I didn't want to risk the collateral damage of wrecked relationships.
2.  mithrandir is a cool character in a well-known literary trilogy.

But seriously, reason #1 is the predominant thing weighing on my mind.  I believe that there are Geftakys groups out there that are still very dangerous.  I believe that people at large need to be warned about them.  I have spoken and written in private to certain leaders in one of these groups, to persuade them to repent and step down, and the answers  I have gotten have been unsatisfactory.  The day may soon come when I will have to cast aside all niceties, and be very blunt and open with these people.  When that happens, I will   be just as blunt on this bb (including the use of my real name).

mithrandir

Cool!  I tried to be nice for several years, as did Kirk C. and others.  What we found out is that talking in private to Geftakysservants is like speaking to a post.  You might as well talk to a cat, or llama.  They know who you are if you wrote them in private, and they have been using the last how many months in order to slander you, and poison the well, so that no one will listen to you.  That's Assembly leadership 101.

read this:  http://www.geftakysassembly.com/fear.html (http://www.geftakysassembly.com/fear.html)

Brent

Verne, you haven't a slightest clue what I am thinking. You throw words at people and about people that lack any grace whatsoever. You would do well to listen rather than judge ones thoughts. Because someone does not have your degree of hatred you attack the individual. The only perniciousness here comes from you, and that is extreme.

Verne certainly has a way with words.  My vocabulary has increased dramatically since I have been on this BB. Verne definitely gets animated when he expresses himself.  Please do not take it as a personal attack James. Your statements and queries are valid as an honest inquirer.

Lord bless,
Marcia

James---

I think you need to go back and re-read what Verne is saying. He is not saying "your thinking" is pernicious to the extreme---he is saying that the quotes called out are pernicious, and mentions that the author of them has drastically changed his thinking since then. Verne is quite atstute with his wording, and I honestly don't see them as any kind of attack upon you or your character.

I have often made the mistake on the BB of reading something too quickly, making a reply, then realizing later that the person wasn't saying what I thought they were.
And Verne has probably been one of the people I have done this to.

God bless you,  Joe

Dear James! :)
   I have been absent for the week from the BB, and in reading back a few posts I came across your statement that suggested that the Assembly was not a cult.  I believe you made the point that the teaching of the Assembly was orthodox, but the practices were cultic.  I would like to answer that suggestion.
  CRI (Christian Research Institute) makes the same kind of distinction that you do between "teaching" and "practice".  CRI also separates erroneous teaching into two categories: heretical and aberrant.  While the above classifications may be useful on a scholarly basis they are not Biblical distinctions.
  The NT talks of "fruit" (behavior/practice) as one of the tests in discovering whether a teacher is false or true.  Some have said, "well, all are sinners and therefore all ministries are disqualified if we judge their fruit."  We see in Peter an example of what God wants us to understand in that respect.  Peter sinned, but repented; false teachers sin and refuse to repent (GG).  So, it is not sinful behavior per se, but a leader's reaction to being called to repent of same.  Humility is the hallmark of Godly leadership vs. pride, the sin of the Devil.
   Can you imagine Jesus telling GG, "Well done!  you held to some aberrant teaching, but you were pretty much orthodox in other areas, and as a side note you abused my little one's, but that is a separate category!" ::) ::)  I don't think Jesus will see things that way.
  I don't know how much of GG's teaching you are aware of.  There is some that he has not made public for years, and in an attempt to diffuse criticism he has tried to present true orthodoxy, that contradicts heretical teachings he holds, but he claims both can exist together. (this, among others, is a very subtle subterfuge that GG used.)
  Of these the most dangerous is his false holiness teaching. CRI may find this teaching "aberrant", but Paul declares it as Galatianism and "cursed".  Paul goes on to make the point that it is destructive to the individual's Christian life, the Christian testimony, and a most serious departure from the Gospel!  Paul calls it a "pseudo gospel".
  The Bible never uses the word "cult" (latin word for a system of worship. Modern use of the word has a secular as well as Christian use.)  It appears obvious that GG fails the test that states, "can a fountain produce both bitter and sweet water?"  To teach the love of God (orthodox teaching) and then cruelly abuse His children is not seen by God as receiving a 50 % grade level.  God looks at these things as a whole.
                                   God Bless,  Mark
 

I wonder whether George's confusing form of expression is intended to be interpreted differently by different people.  Some people would only hear teachings that are pretty close to right, while old-timers would understand something completely different -- legalistic and enslaving.  (Kind of analogous to those trick pictures which are optical illusions in which two different things can be seen depending on how you look at it.)  Also added into the stew are specific coded messages aimed at certain individuals who would be the only ones who would understand them.

that is an excellent observation! in psychology, this phenomenon is called 'confirmational bias'. i think george's preaching style is a reflection of the chaotic state of his mind, but what we read into it tells us a lot about ourselves (think ink blot tests). if we believe he is righteous, has (ever)actually set foot in the 'kitchen of heaven', and is the mouthpiece of God then we hear 'heavenly pearls of wisdom' that we don't fully understand but we are sure must be very important - in short, we are 'blessed'. if we know he has been sleeping around with young ladies his entire life, has a severe narcissistic mental disorder, and has been an out-of-control physical and psychological abuser, then we hear only the manipulative ramblings that any reasonable person would expect from the mouth of such an individual.

in short, we tend to overlook what does not line up with our current opinion, and we tend to focus on what agrees with our current opinion - reinforcing that fundamental feeling that we are right that we so crave. beware of this! it can lead you down many blind alleys, and anyone who was in the assembly for any length of time is particularly likely to indulge in it. we need to re-train ourselves to think critically, carefully, and clearly - and what requires the most courage - for ourselves!

brian

Actually, that wasn't exactly what I was getting at, although what you say is also true.

I'm not skilled at verbal expression.  You seem to have missed the word "intended," which was meant to say that perhaps George was intentionally composing double entendres to attract newcomers and enslave old-timers at the same time.  I used the expression "old-timers" to mean those who are still deceived and in the system.

The topic here ought to be " So WHO is STILL Deceived?"

I have some questions after reading this column:

1) What determines the most dangerous from the least dangerous Geftakys group?

You folks who think you are the farthest away from California need to reconsider. It isn't California that is evil. It is the MAN, George Geftakys. If he even touched your gathering, it has a scent of evil. This bickering about how we are so far away from what happened in California is pure deception. If YOU are involved with ANY assembly YOU are deceived. I mean to say Canada, Virginia, California, Nebraska, or anywhere else.

The assembly=deception. Your shepherds=deception. You are only fooling yourselves and you are mocking God. You aren't following anything that is true. The assembly=LIE.

For the Wes Cohen's out there who say "God has not told me to leave..."  Your first consideration ought to be "I am unworthy to lead sheep anywhere. I have lied to my sheep and therefore I am a liar and just as confused as the sheep."  

Heide

Even worse are guys like Tim Geftakys...He specifically knew of all this evil first hand and now is back in a position of leadership.  He has conveniently "repented" and is now creeping his way back into a position of authority.  What a loser.

Tim - at the ripe age of 50 something - get a life!

The really scary thing is that Fullerton asked him to come back in. Think about it! He didn't muscle his way in, he was asked.....

Heide

If it is true in fact that the people in the Fullerton assembly asked Tim Geftakys to come back, then the reality of the situation is that they are just as hopeless and worthless as he is. Moving forward, peoples efforts and energys should not be spent trying to draw current members out.  Rather, efforts and much energy should be spent allerting potential recruits of the heinousness of this horrific group.  

The assembly was, is, and always will be just a complete and total scam  It is now being kept alive by men with trememdous egos who would simply not be content to just an ordinary person in another church.  They are men who  are satisfying their hunger for power by playing "Big Dog" in this system.  My guess is none of these so called leaders are capable of anything beyond an entry level job...And that may even be a stretch.

This group must be 100% decimated so no others are pyschologially/ physically hurt or taking advantage of down the road.

I worry about the implication in your observations that objective truth regarding George Geftakys and his assemblies is elusive, "confirmational bias" notwithstanding. The facts regarding the history, conduct and spiritual denouement of all that the man George Geftakys touched (even prior to the assemblies) are not in anyway obscure...I prefer to invoke the old adage:

"Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain"



Pat I think your question is one of the most important that I personally have wrestled with in this entire matter - i.e. our own degree of culpability for what transpired. We Christians have the distinct advantage that God's word has clearly instructed us about how and why deception occurs so while it is true a person in that state may not know it, every Christian should understand how to avoid that sad condition. James comment on this is remarkable insightful!(James 1:22), As I wrote on the other BB "Dealing With Deception" thread, the peculiar nature of deception requires a rejection of revealed truth generally and in the life of a child of God, a rejection of revealed truth specifically. The resulting impotence and paralysis is no less debilitating in the believer than it is in the un-regenerate, the process by which one arrives to such a condition is my focus...
It took me a while to stop arguing with the Lord about how much of what happened was George's fault...If we do not understand how and why we fall prey to deception, we run the risk of becoming repeat victims and will fail in our attempts to deliver others...Look again closely at the series of events that transpired in the first and greatest deception in Eden...I honestly don't know what to think of those remaining in that situation knowing what they know...I have my suspicions...

Pat here is the six billion dollar question, what did the one Who died for you say in response to George's supposed satisfactory responses to your nagging doubts? Did you ask Him? Sadly, in many instances I also did not... :'( :'(
Next time we talk I will tell you what happened when I finally asked...



Thanks Mark. There is still a lot of confusion about the nature of George's so-called ministry. How remarkable that with the myriad clues God's Word provides to us, so many are still unwiliing or unable to recognize a false prophet. You are quite right - inability to repent is the most salient and distinguishing feature of the vessel destined for wrath...there is no Scriptural example of an approved servant of God who refused to acknowldge and repent when confronted with sin...the reason is that no such species exists...there are however several outstanding examples of those who refused to repent...
Verne

"100% decimated" is a contradiction of terms.

decimate
1. To take the tenth part of.
2. To select by lot and punish with death every tenth man of.
3. To destroy a large part of.

Luke,

If I take the the tenth part of something is it 100% decimated?

If I destroy a large part of something is it 100% decimated?

If I select by lot and kill every 10th man was the squad 100% decimated?

There was no "contradiction" of terms. Possibly a misuse of a term, but possibly not.

Maybe Uh Oh is familiar with the old Roman form of military discipline. They would select one of every 10 men from a squad. The other nine men in the squad would beat the selected man to death with clubs. If they did not comply they were all put to death.

So maybe Uh Oh really did mean that the remaining Assembly members should be decimated. And maybe Uh Oh would like to see that carried out 100%. Maybe not.

Maybe you should pull out your little dictionary and look up the definition of "contradict."

Scott "Not Scrambling For A Dictionary" McCumber

Since Uh Oh said that he wants no others to be hurt, his usage of the expression "100% decimated" must be interpreted as if he meant that 100% of the people would leave the assembly rather than only 10%.  Hypothetically such a thing could be arranged by decimating repeatedly until no one is left.  Maybe that is what he really meant.

I listened to a message from Charles Price (www.livingtruth.ca) about knowing the will of God. He said that if one is not in the general will of God then one will not know the personal will of God. E.g. GG was not in the general will of God when the assemblies began because he was immoral and had not repented. Therefore, God would not have led him to begin 'his ministry' via the assembly system.

Even now some are saying that what they are involved in is a 'new work'. Who gave them the 'authority' to begin a new work? Why would God tell a bunch of 'deceived' individuals to start a new work?

Marcia

Hi Marcia

The reason they must be involved in a "work," is because they are addicts.   A heroin addict must have two things:  the drug and a means to administer it.

Geftakys addicts must have the drug,  the validation of their lives and personalities as defined by the group, and a means of administering the drug,  a meeting.

The leaders, especially suffer from this.  Their whole lives are not defined by Jesus Christ and Him crucified, but by the New Testament Pattern, and the fact that they are "leading brothers."  George's approval, and to a large extent Mike Zach's approval, validated who they were and what they were doing.  Without this, they are adrift, and must face uncomfortable, yet obvious truth about what they were REALLY doing all those years.  (Again, if what I am saying is not true, than why can't they admit who George is, AND who they are for following him? How come they are NOT "clear in the matter?")

If they can keep the meeting going, declare it a "new work," and maintain their identities as leaders, then they don't get the shakes.   Heroin addicts do just fine, as long as they have a regular supply of the drug,  and as long as they don't get a bad batch, or use an infected needle.  Sadly, except for a few rockstars, most addicts end up stealing, lying and destroying their families in order to get a fix.

Imagine how you would feel if you were addicted to the ministry, and someone came along with a flashlight and illuminated the filthy conditions of your shooting gallery!  Where a sane and sober person recognizes that real life, without the addiction is far healthier, the addict can't go on living without the very drug that is killing him and his family.


Brent