Kerry victory?-----NAW!!!!

[vernecarty]

Excellent point. When it comes to a scandalous wasting of taxpayer's money, it is truly remarkable the number of ignoramuses who have bought the notion that it is all attributable to money spent on the indigent, whether through well-fare or any other such programs...
Verne

[editor]

Excellent point. When it comes to a scandalous wasting of taxpayer's money, it is truly remarkable the number of ignoramuses who have bought the notion that it is all attributable to money spent on the indigent, whether through well-fare or any other such programs...
Verne

The greatest wastes of taxpayers' money are:

1.)social security
2.)Medicare
3.)The "War on Drugs."

Welfare, while a miserable failure of a program, is further down the list.

Another debateable expenditure is foreign aid.  It is more complicated than plain old waste however.

Brent

[vernecarty]

Excellent point. When it comes to a scandalous wasting of taxpayer's money, it is truly remarkable the number of ignoramuses who have bought the notion that it is all attributable to money spent on the indigent, whether through well-fare or any other such programs...
Verne

The greatest wastes of taxpayers' money are:

1.)social security
2.)Medicare
3.)The "War on Drugs."

Welfare, while a miserable failure of a program, is further down the list.

Another debateable expenditure is foreign aid.  It is more complicated than plain old waste however.

Brent

I agree with this list. I would have actually put payment of interest on the Federal debt as number one in terms of wasteful spending.
The fact that we are now a debtor nation and would have to declare bankruptcy without foreign investment is one of the most under-reported stories of our time.
We literally owe more than we are worth!
I am planning on moving to Tortola before the bubble breaks...
Verne

p.s If you think those corrupt and despicable politicians don't have their eyes on the trillions in your pension funds, IRAs and other deferred compensation accounts you are dreaming. I advise everyone to take the tax hit and move it out of their reach at least five to ten years before your actual retirement. A word to the wise...

[moonflower2]

....stereotyping people who may need some governmental assistance?  Who knows...one day it may include YOU.

For those who may be unaware, welfare checks cross melanin/melanin-free boundaries.

It is extremely difficult for a single mother to support herself and her children, especially if they are under school-age.  Hitting the checkbooks of the fathers of the children on welfare, would greatly reduce the amount of money spent on welfare and help to remove some of the scapegoating attitude that the mothers on welfare bear.

[Mark C.]

My fellow Americans, and Canadians   !

  It is quite true, as someone on this thread posted, that we don't get what we think we are getting when we vote either party.

  We think we are going to get a strict adherence to certain principles, but instead we get compromise.  I wouldn't call this "hypocrisy" because life in a pluralistic society necessitates some give and take.

  The fact that Bush does not face election means that he can avoid some of this compromise and try to get some of his principled positions into policy.  Still, all legislation will have to go through Congress, and as such some compromise.

  Christians will ultimately be disappointed as government can not make people reject abortion, support liberation of Iraq, make sound economic decisions, or anything else.  

  As to the deficit and the National debt:  The claim that we are facing bankruptcy because the dollar amount is the highest it's ever been is not a correct way to look at it.  

  You must look at the debt level as a percentage of the GNP (gross national product) and it is lower today than it was in the past (under Reagan, for example, the debt ratio was much higher than today).   Though we may decide to move with Verne to Tortola ( Can I come?  ) the nations ecomonic situation is very strong.

  If you fear a bubble bursting I would recommend buying gold (hit $434. on Fri. and heading to $450. soon.) vs. real estate in the British Virgin Islands. (Disclaimer: trading futures involves risk  )

  Our taxes are wasted in ways that would boggle our minds, if we only knew.  Did you know that there are more employees in the Fed. Agriculture dept. than there are farmers?!!  All this and they still can't produce an accurate report of how much grain we produce!!  (a present disgruntled grain trader  )

  As a middle class working guy (Teamster) I was very happy to get my tax rebate and the additional $100 every week in my check this past year.  The Union upped my dues, so you can probably figure where my affections may lie.

        God bless America (boy do we need it). The feeling very whimsical--------------------  Mark C.

[M2]

I definitely intend to get a job one day. I have been slowly saving up money from the Welfare check I get each month and intend to buy a Lincoln Navigator to use to go job hunting. Well, I've got to go now--I want to go check the TV guide to see who's on Oprah today.

--Joe

So...let me get this straight: all libs are Black people who are on welfare?  Wow...sounds like a racist generalization to me...I know lots of liberals who are not on welfare.  My grandfather-a liberal-was a carpenter who supported ten kids and my gtandmother without any support from the government.  My mother-another liberal-has worked to support her family most of her life.  That's one thing I do not like about people who profess to be Christians...they seem to be the most racist people in the world!

I understood that Joe was stating that a liberal mindset enables people to be dependant on the welfare system rather than otherwise.  It was not a statement that all libs are blacks who are on welfare.

Rather, it was me (an ignorant Canadian) that was curious as why blacks traditionally voted Democrat.  Verne and Brent have enlightened me on that matter.

Thanks to all.

God bless you Eulaha.
Marcia

[editor]

  In his mind, republicans were all about the rich, and corporations.

IBrent

When you take a long hard look at the legislative agenda of the two parties Brent, this opinion is entirely understandable. I think many of these folk have subordinated what some might consider their spiritual and moral priorities to one that is economic.
I will tell you a little secret...so have the Republican leadership...if you look closely...
Verne

Some of you may remember George Bush Sr. talking about how Managed Care (HMO's) was going to reform and "fix" the healthcare system in America.  George Bush Sr. took millions from HMO's and dutifully passed their agenda in his administration.

Here is what happened:

An HMO is NOT, repeat NOT and insurance company.  Therefore, they are not regulated by insurance laws, neither are they accountable to the Department of Insurance.  

In a brilliant, yet sneaky play,  Republicans passed tough INSURANCE legislation, while at the same time opening the doors for the HMO's to have an unfair advantage over insurance companies because they didn't have to follow the same rules.

HMO's are and were a total disaster.  No one raped the healthcare dollar the way HMO's did and still do.  It got so bad that I totally quit insurance in my practice....I won't play the game, neither will I deal with this sort of corruption.

I certainly do not agree with all of the many complaints the left has of the Republicans, but there certainly is merit in their claim that Republicans are the party of Corporate Greed, at least in the area of Healthcare.

The good news is that HMO's are so hated, and are so damaging our healthcare system, that there is a strong possibility that we will soon be returning to old-fashioned point-of-service healthcare, and pay with cash.  This is happening every where, and the trend is well under way.

Brent

[summer007]

Brent, Interesting I'm glad your not putting up with that non-sence. Don't forget Doctors get Bonuses and kick-backs for not referring patients for crucial tests. Having worked for Doctors for about 10 years(I'm in a new field now) I remember one Physician saying "Dont get Sick" as hospital orders were coming in as we were closing and with a stack of RX's to call in many that would only be covered for a month or two and then they'd change coverage for a limited period of time. It was ridiculous I'd been quite spoiled working in private paractices. Needless to say I did'nt stay on there, could'nt play that game either. Summer.

[M2]

...
I am glad that it appears we are going to pound Fallujah.

Marines turn to God ahead of anticipated Fallujah battle
Sat Nov 06 2004 09:37:17 ET

NEAR FALLUJAH, Iraq, Nov 6 (AFP) - With US forces massing outside Fallujah, 35 marines swayed to Christian rock music and asked Jesus Christ to protect them in what could be the biggest battle since American troops invaded Iraq last year.

Men with buzzcuts and clad in their camouflage waved their hands in the air, M-16 assault rifles laying beside them, and chanted heavy metal-flavoured lyrics in praise of Christ late Friday in a yellow-brick chapel.

They counted among thousands of troops surrounding the city of Fallujah, seeking solace as they awaited Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi's decision on whether or not to invade Fallujah.

"You are the sovereign. You're name is holy. You are the pure spotless lamb," a female voice cried out on the loudspeakers as the marines clapped their hands and closed their eyes, reflecting on what lay ahead for them.

The US military, with many soldiers coming from the conservative American south and midwest, has deep Christian roots.

In times that fighting looms, many soldiers draw on their evangelical or born-again heritage to help them face the battle.

"It's always comforting. Church attendance is always up before the big push," said First Sergeant Miles Thatford.

"Sometimes, all you've got is God."

Between the service's electric guitar religious tunes, marines stepped up on the chapel's small stage and recited a verse of scripture, meant to fortify them for war.

One spoke of their Old Testament hero, a shepherd who would become Israel's king, battling the Philistines some 3,000 years ago.

"Thus David prevailed over the Philistines," the marine said, reading from scripture, and the marines shouted back "Hoorah, King David," using their signature grunt of approval.

The marines drew parallels from the verse with their present situation, where they perceive themselves as warriors fighting barbaric men opposed to all that is good in the world.

"Victory belongs to the Lord," another young marine read.

Their chaplain, named Horne, told the worshippers they were stationed outside Fallujah to bring the Iraqis "freedom from oppression, rape, torture and murder ... We ask you God to bless us in that effort."

The marines then lined up and their chaplain blessed them with holy oil to protect them.

"God's people would be annointed with oil," the chaplain said, as he lightly dabbed oil on the marines' foreheads.

The crowd then followed him outside their small auditorium for a baptism of about a half-dozen marines who had just found Christ.

The young men lined up and at least three of them stripped down to their shorts.

The three laid down in a rubber dinghy filled with water and the chaplain's assistant, Navy corpsman Richard Vaughn, plunged their heads beneath the surface.

Smiling, Vaughn baptised them "in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit."

Dripping wet, Corporal Keith Arguelles beamed after his baptism.

"I just wanted to make sure I did this before I headed into the fight," he said on the military base not far from the city of Fallujah.

[vernecarty]

  In his mind, republicans were all about the rich, and corporations.

IBrent

When you take a long hard look at the legislative agenda of the two parties Brent, this opinion is entirely understandable. I think many of these folk have subordinated what some might consider their spiritual and moral priorities to one that is economic.
I will tell you a little secret...so have the Republican leadership...if you look closely...
Verne

Some of you may remember George Bush Sr. talking about how Managed Care (HMO's) was going to reform and "fix" the healthcare system in America.  George Bush Sr. took millions from HMO's and dutifully passed their agenda in his administration.

Here is what happened:

An HMO is NOT, repeat NOT and insurance company.  Therefore, they are not regulated by insurance laws, neither are they accountable to the Department of Insurance.  

In a brilliant, yet sneaky play,  Republicans passed tough INSURANCE legislation, while at the same time opening the doors for the HMO's to have an unfair advantage over insurance companies because they didn't have to follow the same rules.

HMO's are and were a total disaster.  No one raped the healthcare dollar the way HMO's did and still do.  It got so bad that I totally quit insurance in my practice....I won't play the game, neither will I deal with this sort of corruption.

I certainly do not agree with all of the many complaints the left has of the Republicans, but there certainly is merit in their claim that Republicans are the party of Corporate Greed, at least in the area of Healthcare.

The good news is that HMO's are so hated, and are so damaging our healthcare system, that there is a strong possibility that we will soon be returning to old-fashioned point-of-service healthcare, and pay with cash.  This is happening every where, and the trend is well under way.

Brent

That is a superb example of the kind of prostitution to corporate greed that I am talking about. There are countless others. People who make the argument in favor of a totally unregulated free market system are both hypocrites and liars, or worst, complete idiots and have no clue about human nature.
An even more dangerous trend is what is happening in the world of technology and particularly in the field of genetic engineering. Monsanto and a few other companies have been quietly going about the taks of securing patents on all kinds of grains.
They have had the gall to go into other countries where unique strains exist and attempted to seek exclusive patent rights with the resulting authority to levy a fee for local farmers growing produce!
Ridiculous?
There are current farmers using certain strains of corn who are now allowed to re-seed from the previous year's harvest but are required to pay again for their seed product.
It is the ultimate aim of corporate entities to not only completely dominate the life of the workers who produce the goods, but to also completely dominate the means of production. When this kind of savage avarice extends to something as basic as food, the implications are indeed ominous in my opinion.
Verne

[vernecarty]

"I just wanted to make sure I did this before I headed into the fight," he said on the military base not far from the city of Fallujah.

I am glad these men are finding Christ. As the saying goes, there are no atheists in foxholes.
I am more than a little uncomfortable with the idea that this is some sort of holy war sanctioned by God Himself, and that America has some sort of moral imperative to achieve its ends, whatever they may be. I am praying for our troops.  
I am however, not prepared to take God's name in vain.
Verne

[editor]

People who make the argument in favor of a totally unregulated free market system are both hypocrites and liars, or worst, complete idiots and have no clue about human nature.

I disagree with you here, to an extent.  Markets should be free from regulation....and they should also be free from criminal behavior, including monopolistic practices.  

Free markets are a fundamental cornerstone of freedom,  I won't waver on this principle.  However, along with a free market must come impartial laws that insure that trading can take place in an equitable manner.  God hates a dishonest scale.

However, what Mises, or Friedman calls a free market is a far cry from the regulated mess we have today.

Verne, be careful when you call someone an idiot or hypocrite before you find out what they mean by "Free Market."  I don't think there has ever been such a thing as a totally unregulated free market.  A possible exception could be the illegal drug trade, but even they regulate their competition with violence.

I am a supporter of the merits of Free Market Capitalism.  It's an ungodly system that runs on greed and self-=interest, but it's better than the other ungodly systems out there.

Brent

[moonflower2]

Check out the governmental regulation in the form of "capping" the profits by Hillary Clinton.

www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_101404/content/institute.guest.html

[vernecarty]

People who make the argument in favor of a totally unregulated free market system are both hypocrites and liars, or worst, complete idiots and have no clue about human nature.

I disagree with you here, to an extent.  Markets should be free from regulation....and they should also be free from criminal behavior, including monopolistic practices.  

Free markets are a fundamental cornerstone of freedom,  I won't waver on this principle.  However, along with a free market must come impartial laws that insure that trading can take place in an equitable manner.  God hates a dishonest scale.

However, what Mises, or Friedman calls a free market is a far cry from the regulated mess we have today.

Verne, be careful when you call someone an idiot or hypocrite before you find out what they mean by "Free Market."  
Brent

Strong language I admit. I was thinking of what happened with the Resolution Trust Corp. My guess is that most people have already forgotten about that.
You are of course right that a commercial environment free from burdensome governmental oversight is indeed a cornerstone of any thriving democracy.
Becacuse of the undue influence of vested interests in the legislative process, we have difficulty keeping the balance you cited in this country and elsewhere.
Of course what Putin is doing in destroying Yukos illustrates the extreme levels of abuse possible on the other side of the coin. We are in no danger of that here in my opinion.
Verne

P.S Did you hear about the way mutual fund companies have been screwing their shareholders with their skimming of profits and after-hours trading? A man like Elliot Spitzer is rarer than rubies because so many government officials view their position as a stepping stone to the gravy train of corporate largesse. Look at the contemptible conduct of the FDA's pimping for the pharmaceutical companies! Former president George Bush and his entire cabinet is on the Saudi payroll. It is enough to make you puke. I could go on ad nauseam about what happens in the face of weak or ineffective oversight in a "free-market" environment.

ELLIOT SPITZER FOR PRESIDENT!

If you must own mutual funds buy from T. Rowe Price.
They are squeaky clean.

ELLIOT SPITZER FOR PRESIDENT!

[editor]

Check out the governmental regulation in the form of "capping" the profits by Hillary Clinton.

www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_101404/content/institute.guest.html

Yep, this is exactly why the government should stay out of healthcare.

First of all, the flu-shot, at best, is 14% effective in preventing the flu.  At worst, you will die from your flu-shot.  It is senseless for the government to mandate flu-shots, as they could be made available to those who "really" need them, as any other drug is.  (It is a worthy debate as to whether anyone should get a flu-shot, but it really doesn't matter in our context here.)

Secondly, by interfereing with the market, the government made it very unattractive for any company to get involved with making a flu-shot----hence our current shortage.  (Again, I actually see the shortage as a blessing...but that's another story.  Please don't believe that you need a flu-shot....you don't)

Here's another little HMO/Insurance/Pharmaceutical story.  Did you ever wonder why persciption drugs are so expensive if you have to pay cash, but can be had on the cheap if you have an HMO with a persciption drug benefit?  

The Pharm guys sit down with single malt Scotch, and some good cigars with the HMO guys and they talk.  The Pharm guys say,  

"If you agree to only authorize the use of our drug,  IE Celebrex instead of Vioxx,  or Lipitor instead of Zocor, we'll let you have the drugs for cheap.  This means you can increase your membership by selling a small co-pay for perscription drugs, which will scare people into buying your HMO product.  Since we'll be giving you the drugs so cheap, you save money....but you must only use our drugs.  Deal?"

The HMO guy then says,  "sounds good, but it won't increase our membership that much unless the benefit seems really important.  Our satisfaction surveys tell us that most of our members hate us.  Wait, I know....inflate the price of the drugs so high that no one can afford them unless they have our HMO product...then they have no choice, they will have to join up."

Both guys shake hands and say,  "Deal."

Then one guy gets nervous and says,  "Is this legal?  Couldn't this be interpreted as unfair practice, or a violation of some law or something?"

One of the Pharm lawyers says,  "Well, we have some good contacts in congress, and a few paragraphs were added at the tail end of an education bill a few months back that make it OK for us to do this.  We can change the price depending on who's buying, and we won't be in violation of HCFA, as everyone else would be, so yes, we've got this covered."

"To Evil, gentlemen!  The Deal is done!  When are those girls coming over?"

Some of you may know that doctors can't charge one person one fee, and another person a different fee for the same service.  It is a federal offense for me to charge a senior citizen more money for an adjustment that a person who is only 64.  However, an HMO can charge one person 250 dollars for a drug, and another person 11 dollars for the exact same perscription, due to republican legislation.

Am I saying the Democrats are going to "fix" this?  Nope, not at all.  Their solution is to loot money from the HMO's and insurance companies, and then institute socialized medicine, which would be even worse.

The whole thing would calm down and start working again, if the government kept its filthy hand off and let the market regulate itself.

The epitome of this can be seen with Laser Eye Surgery, and Plastic Surgery, which are both elective, non-insured procedures.  The price has gone down for these services, while everything else in medicine has gone up.  Furthermore, people are able to finance the procedures which make them even more affordable.  There is no reason this couldn't happen in the rest of medicine, but it would mean that people could no longer loot and mooch off the system.

Much more could be said about this, and it is this first hand knowledge that I have that worries me about republicans.  Of course, I am not worried, but horrified by Dems...they're worse, make no mistake about it.

Brent