So WHO Is Decieved???

[Scott McCumber]

Marcia,

Discard the idea that there is something you can say to change this person's mind. There is no compelling argument that will work. There is no logic that will cause them to see the light.

They are in spiritual bondage. Interceding for them spiritually is the only weapon you have. Pray for them. Love them. Move on with your life.

Scott

[editor]

Someone wrote this to me today:

"I don't think that we are spiritually deceived because of our association with George. Even of the Pharisees the Lord said to do as they say and not as they do."

I feel like I'm going round in circles with this individual, so I appreciate your comments.

Lord bless,
Marcia

I encounter this kind of circular logic from time to time.  Let's look at what Jesus said about the Pharisees.  He was speaking to His disciples, about the Pharisees, NOT to the Pharisees about themselves.  Jesus made a clear distinction between the two.

Secondly, He said,  "Do as they say, not as they do."  I agree with this, and if your friend does, then they should be meeting other Christians, having friendships outside the group, and having more in common with the other Christians in the community.  

Thirdly, the Pharisees were in the habit of shunning people.  Your friend should not shun you.

When Geftakysservants SAY,  "Praise God!  We have fellowship with all believers in Christ!"  This is good.  However, they don't actually do this, they just say it.  So your friend should take Jesus' advice.

When Geftakysservants say,  "The Holy Spirit can lead us into all truth,  we don't need to fear deception,"  what they are saying is good.  However, they should also do this, and not be afraid to examine other points of view, read commentaries, and view websites!

When a Geftakysservant claims to be a shepherd, and much of his flock is troubled by a website,  he should take Jesus' advice and DO the work of a shepherd, instead of just stating that he is one.   Ostriches make bad shepherds, because they just put their heads in the sand and don't view the facts.  If they took Jesus' advice, about doing and not just saying, then they would read the website in order to defend their flocks from the wolves who are prowling.  

Jesus said,  "contend earnestly for the faith."  Geftakysservants should be able to clearly instruct their people about how what we say here is wrong, and about how George is right, or how it is they weren't hoodwinked.  Instead, they just insist that all is well, while refusing to even entertain what actually happened.

Lastly, if she is going to equate her group with the Pharisees, she needs to get out.  Jesus booted them out of the temple, and he didn't hang out with them, unless it was to rebuke them.  Pharisees are not the same as disciples.  Jesus made a distinction, and your friend should too.  The only way to continue in a Geftakysassembly is to ignore the elephant in the living room.

So, I actually agree with what your friend has to say.   Do as she says!  Hopefully, she will too.

Brent

[M2]

Speaking of 'THE website' this is the comment about it:

"The website and BB speak the truth according to who? At best, I suspect that they present one side of the truth but not the whole picture. I don't doubt that there have been some very real problems in each and every gathering..." etc. etc. etc.

At least this individual is open to communicating with me, so I consider it an opportunity to share my perspective, which may eventually help the whole picture to come together.

Marcia

[editor]

THE website has hundreds of articles by at least a dozen authors, probably twice that many.  In addition, there are lots of testimonials there and on this board.

In contrast, the Assembly tape meeting had lectures given by "fewer" than a dozen people.  Most of the books on THE booktable were written by fewer than a dozen authors, with the exception of George's books, which were plagiarized from several authors, and typed up by his minions!!  HA!!!

So, let us, for the sake of discussion, grant that the website is presenting only one side of the truth.   Does this person mean to say that her Geftakysassembly is presenting the "full-orbed" truth, with all of its sides?  

I hope they read this.  Poor sheeple.

Brent

[M2]

Just because other Christian gatherings have problems, does not excuse the Geftakysassemblies from facing theirs. 'Grievous sins' will continue to go unchecked if individuals refuse to use the means God provides to 'expose' those sins. Those who expose get labelled as gossippers. Many are afraid to read the website and BB because they might discover that there is truth there after all, and it might mean having to leave one's 'comfort zone'. This is not in the same category as publishing wrongs suffered in order to prove that so-and-so is really bad. It is more along the biblical principles of 'two or three witnesses' to prove that there is something fundamentally wrong with the Geftakys assembly system. Saints (all brothers and sisters) who didn't have spiritual discernment &/or were cowards to deal with the issues before GGs excommunication, do not deserve to lead any Christian gathering now (for a long time). They have proven themselves to be unfaithful in 'the little things'. How is it possible that God has now spoken to them to have responsibilities in any Christian gathering?

Marcia

[vernecarty]

Just because other Christian gatherings have problems, does not excuse the Geftakysassemblies from facing theirs. 'Grievous sins' will continue to go unchecked if individuals refuse to use the means God provides to 'expose' those sins. Those who expose get labelled as gossippers. Many are afraid to read the website and BB because they might discover that there is truth there after all, and it might mean having to leave one's 'comfort zone'. This is not in the same category as publishing wrongs suffered in order to prove that so-and-so is really bad. It is more along the biblical principles of 'two or three witnesses' to prove that there is something fundamentally wrong with the Geftakys assembly system. Saints (all brothers and sisters) who didn't have spiritual discernment &/or were cowards to deal with the issues before GGs excommunication, do not deserve to lead any Christian gathering now (for a long time). They have proven themselves to be unfaithful in 'the little things'. How is it possible that God has now spoken to them to have responsibilities in any Christian gathering?

Marcia

I guess we ought to be thankful. If we had any lingering doubts about the motives of some of the men around George Geftakys, this pathetic cadre's continuing their offensive pretension should make their true spiritual condition clear to all...
Verne

[M2]

Why do existing assemblies like to quote this verse "Let God be true and every man a liar" ?
I understand the verse, but somehow I am missing the application of it to their situation. 2 individuals from different assemblies have quoted it to me.

Marcia

[editor]

Why do existing assemblies like to quote this verse "Let God be true and every man a liar" ?
I understand the verse, but somehow I am missing the application of it to their situation. 2 individuals from different assemblies have quoted it to me.

Marcia

In their thinking, they are synonomous with God.  God's House, The Lord's Servant,  The things of God,  The Work of the Lord, The Lord's Appointments, Raised up by God, etc.

People who aren't part of that are "from man."  

Since God doesn't lie, the Assembly is great.

Man lies, we are from men, therefore what we have to say is not valid if it doesn't support the Assembly.

Aside from the obvious elitism and stupidity in adopting such a presupposition is the fact that nowhere does God equate himself with a certain group of Christians, to the exclusion of others.  On the contrary, He says that we all need eachother and that one part can't say to the other, "I have no need of you."

Geftakysservants and their sheeple don't need their friends of 20 years warning them.  They don't need to hear the truth about George, David and the rest.  They don't need to reflect on whether they could be deceived.  They don't need anything other than what they have in the group, to the exclusion of all else.

To this very day, no one has bothered to refute on thing said on the website with two exceptions:

A person corrected a minor detail regarding the Pharisees in one of my essays,  and Mike Zach maintains that the story about him is not accurate in several areas.  No one has refuted one thing about George, David, etc.

However, let God be true and every man a liar.  You are all liars.

Brent

[M2]

To this very day, no one has bothered to refute on thing said on the website with two exceptions:

A person corrected a minor detail regarding the Pharisees in one of my essays,  and Mike Zach maintains that the story about him is not accurate in several areas.  No one has refuted one thing about George, David, etc.

Ah! This would explain why the individual said to me in her letter about the website and BB "they present one side of the truth but not the whole picture".

Thanks for the explanation Brent.

Lord bless,
Marcia

[jackhutchinson]

Marcia,

Yeah, I've heard that one too.  Of course, they only want to hear the one sided perspective of the LB's.

I say, "Let God be true and every Geftakysservant a liar."

 

Jack

[brian]

Why do existing assemblies like to quote this verse "Let God be true and every man a liar" ?
I understand the verse, but somehow I am missing the application of it to their situation. 2 individuals from different assemblies have quoted it to me.

Marcia

In their thinking, they are synonomous with God.  God's House, The Lord's Servant,  The things of God,  The Work of the Lord, The Lord's Appointments, Raised up by God, etc.

People who aren't part of that are "from man."  

Since God doesn't lie, the Assembly is great.

Man lies, we are from men, therefore what we have to say is not valid if it doesn't support the Assembly.

hmmmm, that may be part of it, but i don't think that is what most of them mean. i think when they are quoting this verse, they are thinking to themselves that george, betty, david, many LBs, close friends, etc MAY all be liars, but their perception of God is true, and that is why they keep doing what they are doing - because GOD is true, even if all His servants are liars. see the difference? the shift that has occured in your thinking (marcia) that has not occured in their's is that you realize your perception of God (specifically, God's will and plan in the world today) was based on misperceptions and flat out lies perpetuated by the geftakys assembly system. when you say God is true and every man a liar, you are thinking of several people you realize were liars and discounting what they taught you about God, while retaining your personal perception of God apart from the assembly teachings. they are simply drawing the dividing line elsewhere - and including a lot of assembly teachings and perspectives with God. 'these things are all true, even if everyone who taught them to us were liars!' they are so desperate and sincere in this claim, that they are staking their souls on it. it is a heartrending and deadly dance. i hope you can help them, i really do. in all honesty, where to draw that line still gives me big problems in my perception of God and christianity to this day.

btw, a slightly smart alec (yet true)  response to the one-sided comments would be to say 'yes, the websites are one-sided. and the assembly party line is the other side. study both closely and you'll get the whole truth.' or you could point out that on the bb and website we have a few hundred spontaneous and personal perspectives, while in the assembly they are getting one (agreed upon in private) perspective from the leaders.

i have been told things such as 'God does not settle issues in His house in an open forum. there's a reason for that!'. and 'you have enabled people to lie! that is what you have done!'. my response: i have enabled people to lie. i have also enabled them to tell the truth. i cannot control what everyone says, nor do i wish to - i can only enable them to speak. what they say is up to them. and i think it is vitally important that they be able to speak.

as for the way God settles issues in His house:
1) the issues were not getting settled in the assembly system, so THAT is clearly not God's way either. long term horrific sins were running totally unchecked - NOT what i see in the Bible concerning the running of God's house.
2) even if i concede that decisions in the church should not be made in an open forum (debatable, but anyway...) that does NOT lead to the conclusion that God's people should be PROHIBITED from having open discussions about these decisions (or anything else). people who say things like this are openly embracing censorship and mindcontrol. to say the 'common folks' (nonleaders) should not be a part of church decisions NOR should they ever discuss such decisions outside the presence of a leading brother (or question a leading brother too directly in his presence) is to propogate a cult.

i remember being very uncomfortable with anyone who would openly question a lb 'behind their back', and really upset with anyone who would openly question a lb's decisions to their face. i now believe that is a cultish and unbiblical perspective. research into the dynamics of known cults only confirms my current perspective over and over.

brian

[M2]

Brian,

Thanks for the explanation, and thanks for making this forum open to us.
There should always be an openness among brethren with regards to church matters. The reason some do not like 'open forum' discussion is because they have something to hide. We all participated in the system, but upon repenting, we can at least admit that we were wrong. Those who continue to defend the system have not 'seen' the depths of deception that we were involed in.

Lord bless,
Marcia

[editor]

A person corrected a minor detail regarding the Pharisees in one of my essays,  and Mike Zach maintains that the story about him is not accurate in several areas.  No one has refuted one thing about George, David, etc.

Brent

BTW, I invited Mike, Jim Hayman, Tim Geftakys, and anyone else who wanted to, to write rebuttals, disagreements or whatever they wanted to in thier defense.  None of them took me up on my offer.

Also, I never published anything that didn't have the testimony of two or three, or even a dozen witnesses.  Steve and Margaret have been even more strict about what they post.  Most of it is scholarly.  This is hardly one-sided.

For someone, after all this time, to state that the "Website is a lie," or that it is "one-sided," is fallacious.  If this is so, they should be able to elucidate what in particular is a lie, and what is one-sided.

Personal attacks don't count.  I am talking about the written record.  For example:

The written record says that George treated his personal secretaries improperly on several levels.

If it's a lie someone should dispute it.
If it's a one-sided explanation, what is the other side?

Saying to the persons who are bearing witness,  "You aren't exhibiting the Holy Spirit!" does not qualify.

Anyway, I know you all understand this.  I am just posting it for the benefit of the Lurking Geftakysservants.

Brent

[Oscar]

Brent,

How did you invite them to reply?  Telephone, e-mail, or what?

Thomas Maddux

[editor]

Brent,

How did you invite them to reply?  Telephone, e-mail, or what?

Thomas Maddux

All of the above, including face to face discussions with some, namely the ones from SLO.  With Tim, Jim,  Dan, Keith, Danny, Mike Z.,  Dave Zach and others,  there were phone calls, email and of course the ever present statement on the website inviting correction, clarification and Assembly viewpoints.

No takers, not one.  At first they just called me evil, but then changed their tune to "This isn't how we should do things."

They are correct.  Churches shouldn't do things like this.  The problem was that the church shouldn't do the things they were doing, and then go on to excommunicate and slander those, who over the years tried to "do things," the way the church should do them.

For me it was a huge win, to go all the way and "tell the church."  I went from being excommunicated to outer darkness, to regaining my place in the kingdom and being able to speak with about 90% of my former friends.  It was well worth it.  I feel like I earned my salvation all over again.....

Brent