So WHO Is Decieved???

[Luke Robinson]

Dear BB Visitors and Posters,

I have been decieved.  By this website.  (Sorry, Brent, knew you wouldn't like that.)

This is not to say that George has not sinned badly and needed to be removed, but I refuse to think that these men that have stood as elders and leading brothers as terrible, indifferent individuals.  

It is simply amazing how a family affair can almost utterly devestate every assembly involved.  Everyone is questioned.  No one is trusted.  "How much did you know?"  "Where were you on the night of the 23rd?"  "What are you hiding?"

This is making me sick.  This website has been looking for scapegoats for about four months and they have decieved everyone viewing into believing that all our leaders are evil.  

Just think about it.  This is like calling the bystander to a fight, as guilty as the ones throwing the punches.  Yes, no doubt they could have done something, but it is mostly up to the fighters to settle the problem, not blame the bystanders.  But who is the bystander and who is not?  Who is required to "repent"?  Who is required to be shunned and embarrassed?  Who has the Geftakys "cooties" and who does not?  Is it just the leaders?  Just the family?  Just those that shook GG's hand?  Just those that sat under ministry?  Just those that grew up in the assembly?  Who?

Let's all make lists.  Everyone that has ever wronged us or given us a "bad" look(at least that's how we interpret it)  is going on the evil list.  "Uh-oh, that evil person did another evil act.  Put another checkmark by their name and remember to never trust them again.  Make a little 'Note to Self.' "  This has gotten entirely out of control.

We have made fools of ourselves by doing this.  These "evil" brothers who have been serving in a "cult" for ten, twenty, thirty some-odd years, are blasted time and time again.  

It's amazing how everyone can constantly look only at the times they were wronged.  Wow, come to think of it, these brothers who you constantly blast have served you for dozens of years.  They have poured their blood and sweat into this work, choosing to serve the Lord and all of you, and so quickly it is dismissed.  They are labeled as evil, because of a website.  There is no thankfulness here.  No honoring of these men who have done so much.  They have stayed up long nights to give you a word in season.  They have called you on the phone.  They have gone out to you in your time of troubles.  They have been willing to love you.
I choose not to go this sad way.  Remember, these men did not have to do this.  They could have gone to seminary, or done a million other things than to prepare ministry for individuals who would one day turn their backs on them.  They did this VOLUNTARILY.  But no, they did something that I did not like, so they deserve the noose.  Think about it.  

George has really preached some good messages that have been inspired and have spoken to your heart.  All glory to God for speaking through this man.  This goes the same for the others.  

But let's all open our closets, and show off our skeletons.  Everytime we are wronged, we write a mental note.  And now that this website has been created, we have a way to let it all out.  Let it all HANG out.  Does it make you feel any happier?  Or are you still as sad as ever?

I also think that mostly everything on this website is overdone.  The way many of you wail about the times you were wronged, its like your arm has been cut off and shoved into your spleen.  "But you don't know what I have gone through!  Because of the assembly, I will be emotionally scarred forever!"  I don't know what you've gone through.  But do you know pain?  Or are you crying "Wolf"?  In no way do I disrespect those have been abused.  But the word "abused" is overused.  Who defines it?

To all you folks on this website:
Do you know what you want?  Do you really understand what you hope to get out of this escapade?  Do you want a change of scenery?  Fine.  Go to another church.  No one's stopping you.  Do you want everyone to step down and cover themselves in sackcloth and ashes and pray for forgiveness?  Fine.  You got it.  Will it some how satisfy you?  Do you want every assembly to be blown to fine powder?  Fine.  Will that further your walk with the Lord?

I am sick of everyone blaming everything on the assembly.  
"My wife left me.  Blame the assembly."  "I lost my faith.  Blame the assembly."  "My dog died.  Blame the assembly."  "I lost my job.  Blame the assembly."  "I fell into sin.  Blame the assembly."  

C'mon folks.  It's getting ridiculous.  You're looking for a scapegoat.  But let me tell you a secret.  When you stand before the throne, you will stand alone.  Just you, all by your lonesome, before the Creator of the Universe.  You can't hide behind George or anyone else that wronged you.  Everything is naked and open before Him that judges righteously.

I am sorry that this message is coming so late.  I should have shared this a month and a half ago.  I probably would have more negative attitude points than I have now.

I have noticed that pretty much everyone here is an innocent victim.  I am choosing not to be one.  You should, too.

Take a look inside, folks.  

A Very Sickened Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson        

[Joe Sperling]

Luke---

I appreciate your post---you put a lot of thought into
it for sure. I've read several of your posts and you can
be a very humorous guy. I'm sure you have a big heart.

I just wanted to point out that the majority of the people
posting in here are not pointing at all of the people in the Assembly and calling them evil. We all know there are many dear people there with very sincere hearts.

True--sometimes the posts can become almost venomous towards some of the former leaders. Many people have indeed been hurt by some of these people--some more than others. These men served directly under Brother George, and enabled him to do what he did. Until the GEFTAKYSASSEMBLY.COM was created everyone of these leaders felt George could do no wrong. Without a website like that none of this would have come to light and George would still be doing what he had done all along.

People become angry I think because some of these leaders have taken everything lightly, even attempting to return to teaching a short time after stepping down. Was it a real repentance, or just a "show" put on to appease the one's pointing the fingers? That is the question.

But I see your point also Luke in that you cannot say that "everything" these men has done has been evil. It's unfair to label them that way. The problem is that some of these men are not taking to heart what has happened and have actually said "I didn't know any of this was going on" like Tim Geftakys has done.

If the GeftakysAssembly Website had not been created, exposing George, you can be sure a big attempt would have been made to cover-up or sweep under the carpet the things that came to light. But Luke, I don't think anyone is going to point the finger at you and say "you are an evil man" for the points you have made.

I'm sure you hold a deep respect for these men, seeing they taught and ministered to you. I can truly understand that. But you need to see the seriousness of what has happened in the Assembly. You need to realize that an awful lot of people were put through things they never should have suffered because of some of these leaders.
That's where a lot of the pain and anger is coming from.

Luke---I hope you continue to post. I've enjoyed your humor and your point of view. I for one am glad this BB is here because I've learned a lot from it, and that knowledge has come from all directions.  God bless you.

--Joe

[Bluejay]

Luke:

Here is who is evil...George Geftakys, Tim Geftakys, and David Geftakys are flat out evil. Also, anyone who was in a posisiton of leadership who new about the crimes and misdoings being committed by these three men could also be categorized as evil.  As far as the other leading brothers who were simply following orders that they perceived were from God - they are not evil, they were simply duped.

The work created by Saddaam and his sons...oops I mean George and his sons was flat out a fraud.  It was about power and money.  Everything done was for their own personal benefit.  They have used God as a means of income and power, and will be dealt with accordingly.

As far as being wronged, people would not be so upset if they would have been able to confront those who had done wrong to them.  As a result of the code of silence and not being able to confront these men
there is a lot of built up anger.  People gave their lives to this ministry...This is a huge deal.  These men have been exposed and are now facing the music.

This ministry sucked people in physically and emotionally.  Serious damage has been done and much pain has been inflicted.  

I am not as you call an "innocent victim".  I am not blaming the assembly for any problems.  I have moved on.  From my end, I liken people who have been a victim of the teachings and ways of the  assembly to those who have been molested.  As ones who have been violated, we can either sit back and say nothing or go on the offensive.  I choose the latter.

Again, from my end, I never had any choice in the matter.  I was in the assembly from the time I was two years old, and the warped thinking of the place had a huge negative impact on my life.  I have suffered psychologically as a result, but I have dealt with it and moved on.  My intent is that no one, particularly innocent youth should ever have to fall victim to these mens teaching again.

Luke - here is who led the ministry you are defending:

George - an adulterer and a thief.

David -  a wife beater and a fake

Tim - a thief, a fake, a man who defines arrogance, and a snake.

 

[Mark C.]

Dear Luke:
   Wow!  I'm glad you got that off your chest.
   I think you have done the same thing in your post that you accuse  those who post here of doing; lumping everyone together into the same category.  Certainly no one has lumped every Assembly leader in with the same evil that GG has done.
    You also suggest that GG's problems were "just one family's problem" out of many very good folks that populated the Assemblies.  GG started the Assemblies and controlled each and every one of them.  GG appointed the leaders and controlled them via his unbiblical system of the Workers.
     We will all need much mercy at the throne of judgment.  We all sin, make errors in judgment, allow our emotions to sway us, see through a glass darkly, and misunderstand others motives.  We should always be humble in our judgment with others and "search our hearts", but we must also stand for what we believe to be Christ's mind in the situation.
    Long years before GG was exposed there were those who had problems with the Assemblies of GG.  I left 12 years ago and tried to entreat my brethren re. what I saw as problems.  For my long hours of serving the Assemblies (20 years  and a leading Bro.) I was called, "Satanic, divisive, railer, and a liar."  I was also shunned by those who I had called my dear friends.
    Many of these dear people were deceived and as such I do not group them in with those who were leading.  Recently I have talked with some of them and they have apologized to me, but some have not.  I have not heard one word from any of the leaders.
    It seems incredible to me that anyone who looks at the simple facts of how the Assembly has operated can not say that it was an evil system; this is not to say that all in the system were the designers and operators of the system.  In order for it to work you must have dupes.
    You see just such a system in the Pharisees.  They had great zeal, but not according to knowledge; they were locked in a system that actually harmed those that followed their teaching and practices.  Jesus and Paul hammered away at this system and opposed it strongly, even to the point where Paul "attacked" Peter for his bad example of supporting that system.
    The good news is that Peter was entreated.  The bad news is GG has not acknowledged, nor repented even of his gross open sins!  To entreat present day Assembly leaders to consider that the system started by an unrepetant evil man may have some problems worth looking at is not out of line here.  Books, articles, letters, and reams of postings have sought to explain where the problems are.
   To ignore the facts available is to shield oneself from a means of great deliverance and blessing.  Much more could be said and I too would like you to continue to post your concerns.              God Bless,  Mark

[Bluejay]

Mark C...You were very diplomatic and your point is well said.  I for one, am not very diplomatic.  I wish they would lock George and his two sons in a room with Saddaam and his two sons and test one of Sadaam's dirty boms on the six of them.  That way all six of these evil people could never harm again.

[Luke Robinson]

Dear Mr. Sperling,

Thank you for your wisdom.  You've got a lot of that up your sleeve so thanks for sharing that with me.    Just one thing I had a problem with:

"People become angry I think because some of these leaders have taken everything lightly, even attempting to return to teaching a short time after stepping down. Was it a real repentance, or just a "show" put on to appease the one's pointing the fingers? That is the question."

Ok, who is required to repent and for what?  For knowing about this abuse thing?  For being a robot for George?  What?  Thanks again for writing.

Dear Mark,

I agree with you.  I have made some unnecessary blanket statements in my post and for that I apologize.  I respect you very much and would like to here from you again.

Dear Bluejay,

Must you so easily prove my point?  

Thanks again.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

[al Hartman]

Please note:

     i was there when the Fullerton assembly began.

     i was involved in the workers' meetings and the LBs.

     i didn't leave the assembly until late in 1980.

     i was fully convinced at that time that the assembly was God's work, George was God's servant, and that any and all discrepancies between the assembly and me were my fault for lacking vision and faith.

     Today, people are saying that George, Betty, David and Tim are evil.  That may be true-- i have been so far removed for such a long time that i am unfamiliar with most of the present issues.  
     That same long period of time has allowed me to reflect on my own assembly experiences, and realize some of the things that had gone wrong before i left.  ...and quite a bit had gone wrong by 1980.

     But the point i want to make here is that when the assembly began, the Geftakys' were NOT evil people.  Proud, egotistical, arrogant, aggressive, selfish-- George and Betty were probably all of these and more, but not evil.  ...yet.  The boys were still kids, but they were learning, and they were being groomed.
     In the assembly's beginning, a saving gospel was being preached.  There was a clear call to worship the Lord, and a desire to study his word, to fellowship, and to witness.  There was a lot of love.  But i can't dredge up a memory of evil.
     If the Geftakys' ARE evil, they BECAME evil over a long and gradual decline of spirituality.  Before they were the deceivers saints know them as today, the Geftakys family became the deceived.

     i remember George speaking after worship one Sunday morning.  The sisters always sang in beautiful multi-part harmony, and that morning he told us that the beauty of their singing drew away attention from the beauty of the Lord.  He shared this gently and kindly, trying to present it in a positive light.  But the sisters (except for those who were tone deaf), and some of the brothers, too, were crushed.  We all tried to put a brave face to it, and see it as the Lord's will, taught to us by the Lord's servant.
     ...and as subtly as that, the Geftakys' focus was shifting to being more controlling, and their influence had begun to very gradually ensnare and enslave us.
.............................................................

     All of us who took part in assembly leadership or the "work" must share in some measure the responsibility of what came to pass.  But that only labels us as weak and in error.  Those who came to recognize their error and stayed with it for reasons of their own must wrestle with the label of "evil."

     The important thing to remember is that judgment for evil is an issue between each individual and God.  If we see a brother in sin, leading others into sin, we must challenge the leader to repent, and the followers to beware and turn away.  Ideally, all will see the light and return to the Lord.
     But what if they don't respond?  Or what if the challenger is mistaken?  We are not all going to see the same thing in the same way at the same time-- not in this lifetime.
     We must walk as closely with the Lord as we can, obeying him to the best of our ability, and TRUSTING HIM to take care of all the details that are beyond our control (and beyond our understanding).
..............................................................

     Luke, you must have called off sick the times i got myself in trouble here by telling people they were being too severe or by saying i had benefitted by G's & B's ministries.
     You must be a pretty decent guy, or you wouldn't have hung around here all this time.  My guess is that your tirade can be attributed to having had a bad day, because you have responded graciously to the comments of those who answered you.
     There is a distinct balance to the postings of this BB, and you are an integral part of it, whether your coin lands heads-up or tails-up.  Keep on posting...

al

[Joe Sperling]

Luke---

Thanks for your response. What I was saying is that these leaders "stepped down" from a position of leadership in an admission that they were partly responsible for what had been going on. For any of them to try to take back a position of leadership so quickly shows an insincere attitude towards having "stepped down". At least that was my take on it. If I'm wrong someone please correct me.

Thanks again for your post.  --Joe  

[Arthur]

     Today, people are saying that George, Betty, David and Tim are evil.  

And don't forget David.

    But the point i want to make here is that when the assembly began, the Geftakys' were NOT evil people.  Proud, egotistical, arrogant, aggressive, selfish-- George and Betty were probably all of these and more, but not evil.  ...yet.  The boys were still kids, but they were learning, and they were being groomed.

What about the Satanic Bible and Tibetan Book of the Dead that George owned?  As well as the statue of Buddha in his living room, and the money laundering and immorality, etc. ?  Did you see the "Assembly History" by the Irons on the www.geftakysassembly.com website?  What are your thoughts on that, Al?

[Mark C.]

Dear Bluejay, (and Luke)
  I don't think diplomacy is what I'm trying to achieve in my posts, nor debate, but a dialogue (Wow! 3 D's-- sounds like a good 3 point message ).
 Maybe I can kind of understand how Luke feels when people lump very good people, like his Dad, in with the likes of the Geftakys's.  There are very many good, honest, moral, diligent, etc. folks who have given their lives in what they thought was service to Christ. (Who am I to say they are insincere?)
  I can give a testimony of my own experience.  I felt from the very beginning something was wrong in the Assembly, but believed that it was just a matter of balance.  When I sought to voice concerns I was told things like, "Mark, wait on God and he will change the leadership."  And so, I waited, and prayed, and waited some more (20 years).
   I was always known as the guy who preached the grace of God.  I felt the need to balance what I thought was a preoccupation with holiness preaching.  I believed GG's false holiness message at the time, but knew in my own life, as well as many around me that we were not performing up to snuff.  I would watch the faces of the Saints light up as I gave them hope, only to watch them fall again as the next Bro. got up and preached GG's false gospel.
   The point is, there are many leaders who opted out of the inner circle of GG, and the politics surrounding it, and honestly tried to do what was right for God's people.  When the widow put her last mite into the treasury box Jesus did not remark that by her offering she was supporting an evil religious system that abandoned God.  She offered it as unto the Lord and God accepted and valued it as of great worth.
  God understands our ingnorance, weakness, and yes even our willingness to ignore the obvious; we're very fallen humans.  God has been very patient and merciful to Assembly folks as he tried to entreat them (As He was with me for many long years in this group).
  For those leaders who now still choose to not take a time of deep evaluation and to step down and away from any kind of position of teaching and leadership is for them to miss a great opportunity to really serve Christ.  Christ's testimony is not lost by being humble and entreatable, it is gained!  The enemy's cause is not advanced one wit when we face the facts honestly, acknowledge our mistakes, turn from them, and seek to be instructed; there is nothing to fear here!  Faithfullness to God is not loyalty to a man and a ministry that has been proven corrupt, but honesty and clarity before Him with whom we have to do!
                           God bless,  Mark
   
 

[al Hartman]

Arthur, and all,

     i am not by any means defending any of the Geftakys', either as they are today, nor as they were in the 1970s.  But it is a mistake and over-simplification to label them as "evil" from eternity unto eternity.  They BECAME corrupted over a period of time, as Satan preyed upon their weaknesses.  Any of us who thinks that our personal spirituality is above such a fate is dangerously wrong!  It is only the grace of God that keeps our human frailty from opening the door to darkness.  It is not the strength of our convictions that protects us, but the strength and love of HIM WHO CONVICTS US!

     i don't recall a buddha in GG's living room, but what of it?  An idol only has power over one who idolizes it.  To George, and the rest of the LBs & workers, such an object was only an artifact, reminiscent of the fascinating nature of mankind.  He had many such oddments scattered about the premises.  They were curiosities and conversation starters.  Having attended seminars, prayer meetings, etc. in that house many times, i am unaware of any of GG's possessions ever having caused anyone to stumble.

     As for the books, George confided in the early LBs that there was an occult history to his family (i'm not sure which side), which he had renounced after he accepted Christ.  The books were of interest to him, but there was no evidence that he held them in any other regard at that time.  
     One Sunday evening, the LBs were met in GG's den, for discussion and prayer.
     GG asked us, " If a brother owned a book which contained spells for conjuring demons, what should he do with it?"
     Several of us instantly said, "Burn it!"
     He then asked if we thought such a book, being extremely rare and sought after, could have any redeeming value, such as to be sold for a high price to raise money for the Lord's work.
     Again we said, "Burn it."
     He stood and left the room, returning a few moments later with a nondescript darkbound book, which he opened and laid face down on the flaming logs in the fireplace.  We supposed at the time that he was simply testing us.  i never saw reason to think otherwise.
     i was never privy to any immorality or abuse of funds.  If such transpired either during or prior to my tenure in Fullerton, no incident ever came to my attention.  If it had, i don't know whether i would have had the wisdom or fortitude to challenge it.  But i was one of those who stood for burning the book.

     i own a buddha or two, and a couple of small hindu and shinto figures.  i also have a copy of the Q'ran, a Union Prayerbook in Hebrew/English and i think there's a Book of Mormon on the bottom of a stack somewhere.  And some religious science literature.  Do you think these have influenced my posts?
     i don't read the books.  i have them for reference, but haven't needed them or got around to looking at them.  i'm not sure exactly where any of the figurines are.  i picked them up for inspiration, and every once in a while, when i stumble onto one of them, i'm reminded how great a debt i owe, and how huge a portion of the world dwells in darkness and in need of prayer.  That's the inspiration i was looking for.

     George used to often tell us, "Your actions speak so loudly, I can't hear a word you're saying."  What has happened to him and his wife and sons has made of those words a self-fulfilling prophecy.  A potentially world altering ministry has been all but totally negated by wilful sin.  There, but for the grace of God, might we all have gone.

al

[Luke Robinson]

Dear Mr. Hartman,

I agree with you, I must say.    Too much use of the word "evil."

Sin has been done.  The guilty party has been removed.  But who is evil?  I guess we all are if this reasoning follows through.  

Dear Everyone Else,

If someone has been a jerk to you, call them a jerk.  Not evil.  If someone has done something wrong to you, address that problem.  But once we start experimenting with certain words in the English language, then our discussions fall apart.  And that is what I am asking all of you to do.

I admit I was a little angry when I wrote what I did.  I was a little harsh, a little mean spirited.  And for that, I apologize.  But above all, I am asking each of you to think.  And if I have said something that you personally agree or disagree with, feel free to write me either by IM or e-mail.  

God Bless.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

[Joe Sperling]

Al---

I wanted to mention that I too have several books for
reference only which might be considered evil. I have
studied cults and religions for a while now and have such
books as "The Egyptian book of the dead", "The Book of Mormon", several books written by Jehovah's witnesses,and
several books written by atheists. I even have a book by Aleister Crowley, who was a satanist. I have them because I am interested in learning what these people believe, not because I adhere to any of the teachings they present.

True, what Aleister Crowley writes is "evil", but the book itself is made of paper and is not possessed by evil spirits.
The book isn't going to leap off the shelf and attack someone. So, I don't believe that because George owned a satanist book, or the "Tibetan book of the dead" that he believed in those things. That's really a stretch in my opinion. Many people have buddha's solely as artwork--I don't have a buddha, because whenever I look at one with it's fat belly I get hungry and break my diet. but if I did have one I sure hope no one would call me "evil" for having one.

George indeed has done some "evil" things but I wouldn't base that on the books he had or a statue he might have had in his living room. This is just my opinion I know, and I accept any disagreement that might be made.

--Joe

[Arthur]

Arthur, and all,

     i am not by any means defending any of the Geftakys', either as they are today, nor as they were in the 1970s.  But it is a mistake and over-simplification to label them as "evil" from eternity unto eternity.  They BECAME corrupted over a period of time, as Satan preyed upon their weaknesses.  Any of us who thinks that our personal spirituality is above such a fate is dangerously wrong!  It is only the grace of God that keeps our human frailty from opening the door to darkness.  It is not the strength of our convictions that protects us, but the strength and love of HIM WHO CONVICTS US!

Ah, interesting take on it.  Based on the evidence, I'm leaning more towards that they are wolves and always have been wolves and never have been sheep, i.e. they've always been wicked and enemies of the flock of God and through the years their true nature was revealed.  

    i don't recall a buddha in GG's living room, but what of it?  An idol only has power over one who idolizes it.  To George, and the rest of the LBs & workers, such an object was only an artifact, reminiscent of the fascinating nature of mankind.  He had many such oddments scattered about the premises.  They were curiosities and conversation starters.  Having attended seminars, prayer meetings, etc. in that house many times, i am unaware of any of GG's possessions ever having caused anyone to stumble.

Fascinating? --how 'bout base wickedness of humanity.  I dunno but I still don't think it's OK to be a Christian (and especially a pastor or preacher)  and have a statue of Buddha in your living room!  I don't know any other Christian pastor that would have a statue of a demon that is the cause of enslavement for a large percentage of humanity in heathen darkness.  

    As for the books, George confided in the early LBs that there was an occult history to his family (i'm not sure which side), which he had renounced after he accepted Christ.  The books were of interest to him, but there was no evidence that he held them in any other regard at that time.  
     One Sunday evening, the LBs were met in GG's den, for discussion and prayer.
     GG asked us, " If a brother owned a book which contained spells for conjuring demons, what should he do with it?"
     Several of us instantly said, "Burn it!"
     He then asked if we thought such a book, being extremely rare and sought after, could have any redeeming value, such as to be sold for a high price to raise money for the Lord's work.
     Again we said, "Burn it."
     He stood and left the room, returning a few moments later with a nondescript darkbound book, which he opened and laid face down on the flaming logs in the fireplace.  We supposed at the time that he was simply testing us.  i never saw reason to think otherwise.

Ah, that's how it happened.  George related this story to us during a summer school.  He said he was reading that place in Acts where the sorcerers burned their scrolls.  Interesting.  

    i was never privy to any immorality or abuse of funds.  If such transpired either during or prior to my tenure in Fullerton, no incident ever came to my attention.  If it had, i don't know whether i would have had the wisdom or fortitude to challenge it.  But i was one of those who stood for burning the book.

     i own a buddha or two, and a couple of small hindu and shinto figures.  i also have a copy of the Q'ran, a Union Prayerbook in Hebrew/English and i think there's a Book of Mormon on the bottom of a stack somewhere.  And some religious science literature.  Do you think these have influenced my posts?
     i don't read the books.  i have them for reference, but haven't needed them or got around to looking at them.  i'm not sure exactly where any of the figurines are.  i picked them up for inspiration, and every once in a while, when i stumble onto one of them, i'm reminded how great a debt i owe, and how huge a portion of the world dwells in darkness and in need of prayer.  That's the inspiration i was looking for.

If you were ready to say "burn it" back then, what made you change your mind so that you now own the very same kinds of books?  I don't quite understand why you would need to have idols in your home to remind you to pray for the world that dwells in darkness. Would that be the same as me saying I need to go to the bar to remind myself that there are drunks that I need to pray for?  I'm not trying to be fussy, but that doesn't make any sense to me.  

    George used to often tell us, "Your actions speak so loudly, I can't hear a word you're saying."  What has happened to him and his wife and sons has made of those words a self-fulfilling prophecy.  A potentially world altering ministry has been all but totally negated by wilful sin.  There, but for the grace of God, might we all have gone.

Do you really think that the ministry had potential for good things?  I'm interested to hear your take on that--what went on in the early years that made it seem that way?  After hearing more and more accounts of George's behavior, I'm wondering if there ever was a movement of God.  I'm thinking that maybe in some people's lives there were, because they read the Bible and it broke through the darkness that enshrouded George, but it wasn't because of George.  Was it?

Arthur

[brian]

But it is a mistake and over-simplification to label them as "evil" from eternity unto eternity.  They BECAME corrupted over a period of time, as Satan preyed upon their weaknesses.  Any of us who thinks that our personal spirituality is above such a fate is dangerously wrong!  It is only the grace of God that keeps our human frailty from opening the door to darkness.  

it is also a mistake and over-simplification to propose that the george, his sons, and all of those corrupted by them are simply helpless victims of satanic attack. did they have less grace than we do? no. we all make decisions, with our wills, that determine what we become. if you have been doing your homework, you know that george was corrupt long before he started the assemblies, and that the image of righteousness and godliness that george projected was an absolute fraud the entire time. the difference between george and me is what i chose to become. the same is true for you, al, and for all of us. unless you think the grace of God shows favoritism.

An idol only has power over one who idolizes it.

i think this is very true. i have a buddha in my living room. it was a gift from the best man at my wedding. he was born and raised in nepal, where buddhism permeates the culture at least as deeply as christianity does here, and with as many different striving strains. he gave it to me as a beautiful cultural ornament, and i value it for the friendship that was displayed by the giving of it. don't live in fear. you can't go wrong by obtaining a more accurate understanding of a culture, religion, or tense political situation. its easy to jump to conclusions and judgements, to fortify yourself safely behind bars of fear, and to react aggresively. its hard to take the time and effort to really understand - but its worth it. its a big step in the direction of freedom.

A potentially world altering ministry has been all but totally negated by wilful sin.

i hate to say even more things that may be painful to hear, but the fact is, even with george and his sons manipulating at full capacity, his ministry never really became very large or influential. it was an especially painful snap of reality, when i realized that we all suffered so much for so long - and so astonishingly little ever actually came of it. it dosen't stack up very impressively as a church, a movement, an awakening, or a cult. whatever may have been actually valuable in it was only on a personal level, when sincere people invested in one another and found meaningful friendships in the middle of it all. and that is found in any form of community, and was many times squashed or corrupted in george's ministry. there was never anything world-altering about it - all of that was the influence of charismatic personalities on those who wanted to believe in them. i'm sorry. its very sad, but its true.