Listen To George Plagiarize!

[vernecarty]

Verne:  I missed the announcement of the strategically read letters when Steve departed.  The following Sunday, Dan Notti personally wanted to read the Lee's excommunication letter to me.  (I was a doorkeeper and worked with Steve Irons so they were trying to save me from being "poisoned" though I already was).   When it came to the part about Lee's "sexual immorality", I asked him what that was.

He replied, "Oh, we can't discuss that."

I know what it was and it is completely unsubstantial (lets just say that if they upheld the standard consistantly, we would all be excommunicated).  Dan knew this, too.

Dave I know of enough specific instances of matters like the one you cite to have concluded that anyone arguing that the leadership was somehow duped into sanctioning George's ungdoly behaviour must be smoking peyote...these men had completely lost sight of the God with whom we have to do...completely!!
Verne

[M2]

Marcia:  You are right.  I guess I got over excited because so many folks I know were truly repentant and changed their thinking.  However, I did hear a story recently of someone who wanted to visit Annendale and was met with suspicious questioning from Steve Taylor.  He decided not to bother.  So, I am sure there are some where old habits just won't die.

I'm sure that the Wiesers and the F---s  and the ?? and the G---s would love to have this family visit VA. He called the wrong person.

Lord bless,
Marcia

[enchilada]

I have lots of tapes, and know where to get more.  Perhaps you be able to hear them soon.   Praise his (George's) name!  The vision will go forth!

Brent

I'm glad you have some tapes, as you can get some of your money back by selling them on Ebay.  You might consider erasing them in order to get higher bids.

[Joe Sperling]

Try playing them backwards. On one of them, I've forgotten which one, you can make out a voice saying "you want to massage my feet, you want to massage my feet" or something close to that.

[outdeep]

That's odd.  I was playing my CD with the song "Stairway to Heaven" backwards last night and I kept hearing a low voice saying "Are you with me friends?  Are you with me friends?"

[vernecarty]

Also on the tapes what we were certain were "Run with me Heavenly foot-men" strangely becomes rendered "To-hell-with me foot-men!...
Verne

[editor]

That's odd.  I was playing my CD with the song "Stairway to Heaven" backwards last night and I kept hearing a low voice saying "Are you with me friends?  Are you with me friends?"

"You see friends, I didn't grow up in a Christian home!  It was all nightclubs and dancehalls."   "My father would always say, "George, all those meetings!  You always go to a meeting,' and I'd say...I'd say this back to him.....heheh....But Papa!  The Lord's There!"

The tapes are going to go to a person who will be able to figure out who George was plagiarizing and when.  I don't have the energy, nor the desire to listen to them, but I might listen to a father's meeting taught by Betty, and I want to hear one by Dan Notti.

Brent

[mithrandir]

The tapes are going to go to a person who will be able to figure out who George was plagiarizing and when.  I don't have the energy, nor the desire to listen to them, but I might listen to a father's meeting taught by Betty, and I want to hear one by Dan Notti.

Brent

Personally, listening to Dan Notti would trigger my gag reflex.  I remember him as one of the foremost apostles of George and Betty, always giving seminars and workshops on the Geftakys version of "the exchanged life."  Yet he was always such a sour, glum person - what did he know about the exchanged life?  Dan, talk is cheap.  Show me the money!  In his relationships with the sheep, this "shepherd" used to shower his attention on  those who could stroke his ego and make him feel good - while shredding those who were not useful to him.  And I was one who was not useful to him.  For instance, I remember him getting into a shouting match with me over George's opposition to interracial marriage (oddly enough, George and Betty only seemed to have a major problem if black saints wanted to marry saints who were not black.)  Dan's oft-repeated line to me was something like, "You're not in submission to God, brother!"  I remember Dan telling me once that black people had a problem accepting their identity in Christ, because we were always doing things in an attempt to better ourselves - like my getting an engineering degree.  Perhaps he was jealous because he wasn't able to become an engineer!  I remember seeing him effusively gushing over certain favorites of his who came to him for prayer and counsel after meetings, knowing that if I tried to talk to him, he would shred me.  And believe me, racism wasn't the only problem Dan had.  There are other saints in Fullerton who were turned off by him - by his sarcasm, abrasiveness, laziness, and self-preoccupation.  Dan Notti was one reason I came to the conclusion over a year before George's exposure that the leading brethren in Fullerton were useless and irrelevant.  But if anyone has a tape of Dan Notti teaching anything, I might actually want a copy.  I might just take that tape and smash it!  I would ordinarily sign off as mithrandir (tongue-in-cheek, of course), but I'll use my real name here.  And if any of this gets back to that useless poser Dan (and I hope it does), he can feel free to discuss it all, and more besides, with me right out in the open.  What a travesty he is!  He is the perfect embodiment of a Geftakysservant - a whipped dog, an idolatrous emasculated man looking to a father figure for emotional validation, heedless of the Lord's own words when He said, "Call no man on earth your father, for One is your Father and you are all brethren..."

Clarence Thompson

P.S. While the leaders were all weeping and apologizing in January for their part in the sins of George, Dan admitted to no wrongdoing.  Instead, he tried to paint himself as a wounded innocent.  Then he slunk off into obscurity with his tail between his legs.  

[M2]

Personally, listening to Dan Notti would trigger my gag reflex.  I remember him as one of the foremost apostles of George and Betty, always giving seminars and workshops on the Geftakys version of "the exchanged life."  Yet he was always such a sour, glum person - what did he know about the exchanged life?  Dan, talk is cheap.  Show me the money!  In his relationships with the sheep, this "shepherd" used to shower his attention on  those who could stroke his ego and make him feel good - while shredding those who were not useful to him.  And I was one who was not useful to him.  For instance, I remember him getting into a shouting match with me over George's opposition to interracial marriage (oddly enough, George and Betty only seemed to have a major problem if black saints wanted to marry saints who were not black.)  Dan's oft-repeated line to me was something like, "You're not in submission to God, brother!"  I remember Dan telling me once that black people had a problem accepting their identity in Christ, because we were always doing things in an attempt to better ourselves - like my getting an engineering degree.  Perhaps he was jealous because he wasn't able to become an engineer!  I remember seeing him effusively gushing over certain favorites of his who came to him for prayer and counsel after meetings, knowing that if I tried to talk to him, he would shred me.  And believe me, racism wasn't the only problem Dan had.  There are other saints in Fullerton who were turned off by him - by his sarcasm, abrasiveness, laziness, and self-preoccupation.  Dan Notti was one reason I came to the conclusion over a year before George's exposure that the leading brethren in Fullerton were useless and irrelevant.  But if anyone has a tape of Dan Notti teaching anything, I might actually want a copy.  I might just take that tape and smash it!  I would ordinarily sign off as mithrandir (tongue-in-cheek, of course), but I'll use my real name here.  And if any of this gets back to that useless poser Dan (and I hope it does), he can feel free to discuss it all, and more besides, with me right out in the open.  What a travesty he is!  He is the perfect embodiment of a Geftakysservant - a whipped dog, an idolatrous emasculated man looking to a father figure for emotional validation, heedless of the Lord's own words when He said, "Call no man on earth your father, for One is your Father and you are all brethren..."

Clarence Thompson

P.S. While the leaders were all weeping and apologizing in January for their part in the sins of George, Dan admitted to no wrongdoing.  Instead, he tried to paint himself as a wounded innocent.  Then he slunk off into obscurity with his tail between his legs.  

Clarence,

This is sad. I did not realize that racism was such an issue for GG and BG et al. I looked at the way thing 'appeared'. The reality was different. I do remember BG making a comment in my hearing, but I took it as a psychological observation. For the most part, the leading brothers enforced Geftakysism faithfully. I cringed everytime I heard HEB 13:17 "Obey your leaders, and submit to them; for they keep watch over your souls, as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you." mentioned in ministry, because I knew the abuses that would be justified as a result.

PTL that we are free from that bondage.

Lord bless,
Marcia

[jackhutchinson]

I don't doubt that members of the Geftakys family have made racist remarks, but in Goleta there have been 2 mixed marriages (both were between a white man and a black woman).  I even taped one of them.  I doubt they would have taken place had George been opposed to the idea.

Jack

[d3z]

Personally, listening to Dan Notti would trigger my gag reflex.

I have recordings of most of the itenerate ministry that happened here in San Diego.  A lot is uncategorized (just date), and I don't really want to listen to it.

I few are labeled as "Br. George", "Wes", "Tim McCarthy".

And, I just found one of Dan Notti, looks like near the end of 1999.

These are all in mp3 format, archived away on a couple of CDs.  I've never deleted a single message that made it into my computer.

Most of it is just mundane local preaching.

Dave

[vernecarty]

I don't doubt that members of the Geftakys family have made racist remarks, but in Goleta there have been 2 mixed marriages (both were between a white man and a black woman).  I even taped one of them.  I doubt they would have taken place had George been opposed to the idea.

Jack

They both had a problem in this area. Betty's was far more serious. George's racism was based on a rather classic paternalistic view of African-Americans that has plagued so many men in Christian ministry, many of whom, by all appearances were Godly men (George excepted of course.) One such remarkable example was Andrew Murray of South Africa.
Betty' s racism was virulent and based on a an actual contempt for people of color, particularly those of African-American ancestry.
If opposition to a bi-racial relationship would prove too costly to George in terms of his image, he of course would not object.  Good examples were Perry and Elaine Minamide and Earl and Karen Sommerville.
Betty on the other hand, actively threatened any sister who would even so much as hint an interest in anyone of the wrong color. The instances you cite Jack are very much the exception. The gender of the individuals could have made a difference. This is certainly one of the dark, dirty seccrets of assembly unspoken philosophy. Believe it.
Verne
p.s. Does anyone remember the sister from South Africa,  Kathy Gloeckler that George once described as being a sister of "pure gold"? Well, she had the audacity to fall in love with an African, and the integrity and stature to tell George to take a long walk on a short pier when he raised purely racist objections to the relationship. He thought it would be bad for the "work". I think he actually resented the competition for Kathy's affection (now happily married!). Unless you were blind as a bat it had to evident to all of you this was the unspoken disposition of this "ministry". Of course there were any number of workers who received this kind of instruction more explicitly and rather than take a stand for truth and righteousness, simply acquiesced like the despicable puppets so many of them were. Don't get me started...

p.p.s Why is it that some of you  our white bretheren appear to be so obtuse when it comes to this matter of blatant racism in the church of Jesus Christ? I am more than a little surprised that Clarence is the only witness to publicly state what I have always known about Dan Notti and that is that he was nothing but a common thug and a lout. Didn't any of the rest of you know this cretin?
I am afraid the more closely this posse is examined and the truth of all they stood for start to be fully disclosed, the more difficult it will be to argue against the contention that all that was produced by George and his henchmen was never ever a work of the Spirit of God but rather a veritable spawn of hell itself. Difficult to take is is not? Get used to it...I could tell you a few dark and dirty secrets about this punk, Dan Notti...for those of you in the Black community, think "yellow"...ironic, isn't it?

[M2]

I don't doubt that members of the Geftakys family have made racist remarks, but in Goleta there have been 2 mixed marriages (both were between a white man and a black woman).  I even taped one of them.  I doubt they would have taken place had George been opposed to the idea.

Jack

Have you heard of a double standard? Well I discovered that if it furthered the cause (boosted the image of the system) then exceptions were/are made. I suspect that these marriages occurred in the last 5 years (I know at least one of them did).

Lord bless,
Marcia

[jackhutchinson]

The G's did make exceptions when it suited their purpose.  In fact, those two marriages gave me the distinct impression that we as a ministry were NOT racist.  Perhaps generating that false impression was the reason for those exceptions.  It may have been good PR to allow them.  You also make a good point about the genders, Verne.

I remember in 1985 David G made some racist comments, and to my shame I did not challenge him.  At the time I saw it as just another weird thing that David said.  It was another one of those 'puzzle pieces' that I just stuffed in my pocket.  Now I see the picture more clearly.  These guys told us that 2 + 2 = 5, and we swallowed it.

Perhaps the reason we white brethren are so blind is that we were not the objects of their racism, so the issue was not staring us in the face.  David's was the only racist remark I personally heard.  I never would have known about Dan Notti had you not mentioned him.

Jack

[editor]

We are straying off the topic here, and perhaps we should consider a new thread.   Nevertheless, I have something to add to our discusion about racism.

3 or 4 years ago, when I heard the first accusation of the Assembly being racist, (rickross article) I didn't believe it.  I thought to myself,  "Great, all this good information, and then someone pops off with a ridiculous comment like this!  It will just give them something to point at and call everything else a lie."

Then, over the last year, every single black person I spoke with all told me about the racism they faced in the Assembly.  While in the group, I was definitely taught that it was "unwise," for me to marry a person of color, because mixed marriages made missionary work difficult, if not impossible.  People were "stongly encouraged," to marry within their own race.  

I was present at a Sunday lunch, with David Geftakys, when he put the Kabash on Clarence, who was interested in a white sister.  Of course David didn't say it was for racial reasons,  but because the sister was in "the work," and Clarence was not.  

As a white male, I didn't experience any racism, but I cannot deny the fact that every single black person I have talked to relates unequivocly that racism existed.  

I would like to think of myself as color blind in this area, but I must confess it is not something I have given much thought or attention to.  I grew up partly in Hawaii, where I was a minority, among Asians.  I am certainly not the least bit biased towards Asians, and would like to think that I am not towards blacks, although a saint did tell me once that I uttered a racial comment.  I don't remember it, but I feel terrible about it.

Anyways,  if every single person of color has the same story to tell, perhaps we should give it some creedence.

Back to plagiarism now....

Brent