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Author Topic: George Bush's Grandfather and Adolph Hitler  (Read 5012 times)
DavidM
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« on: August 03, 2007, 10:51:04 pm »

My reason for posting this thread has to do with the assertion that people who support big business are the same people who support civil rights. I really can't buy this one! But if anyone wants to counter please be my guest!

   If you will note it doesn't claim that Prescott was sympathetic to Hitler's cause but does show he was a financial backer and made quite a fortune!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1312540,00.html
« Last Edit: August 03, 2007, 10:57:42 pm by DavidM » Logged
Oscar
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« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2007, 05:22:21 am »

Dave,

First of all I must say that I see little point in blaming someone for what his grandfather thought.  Seems to me that grandfathers form their attitudes long before the grandchildren are born.

If you really believe that, which I doubt, you must of course condemn John F. and Robert Kennedy as Nazis.  Their dad was Roosevelt's ambassador to England in the years just before WWII began and up until (I believe) 1941.

He was openly pro-German and bombarded the Whitehouse with dispatches describing the hopelessness of England's heroic stand against Nazi aggression.  He strongly advised Roosevelt not to listen to Churchill and to offer England no support whatsoever!

In evaluating his conduct there are some important considerations to take into account:

1. First, we must remember just how frightened people were of the Soviet Union's growing power.  In the 1930's their industrial production had already exceeded Germany's.  They had openly declared their goal of spreading Communism all over the world, and were already working on it.  Many well intended Europeans and Americans saw the USSR as a greater threat than Germany.  Germany was seen as a powerful buffer state between the USSR and the rest of Europe.

2. Being pro-German in 1938 did not necessarily mean that people were pro-Nazi.  Everyone knew that Hitler was anti-Jewish.  But they did not know just how far his insane hatred of Jews was going to go, nor the evils it would produce in the ensuing years.

Have you ever heard of the German-American Bund.  It was a pro-German organization in the USA that marched around in brown shirts and Swastikas.  Many prominent Americans belonged to it.  Among them was Charles Lindbergh.  BTW, people who's ancestors came from Germany make up the largest group of white Americans.

3.In those days Dave, racial/ethnic prejudice was popular!  It was widely assumed that non-whites were an inferior race of men.  That idea came straight out of the writings of Saint Charles Darwin, and were taught to America's brightest and best by Ivy League universities.

Now, regarding this idea that big business supporters can't support civil rights.  Remember Harry S. Truman?  You know, the one that threatened to use the military to compel coal miners, steel workers, and railroad workers from striking?  The one that said that if they struck he would order the army to take over their industries and keep them running?

He is also the one who took a public stand against segragation in a presidential speech that made the Democrats, ( his own party), so mad that several states turned Dixiecrat and supported Strom Thurmond?

Isn't he the one who ordered the Military and all Federal employment integrated?   Roll Eyes

Hmmmmmm.

It isn't as simple as you seem to think it is.

Tom Maddux
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DavidM
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« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2007, 08:54:37 am »

Tom, I had the feeling you would counter with the argument that "Supporting Hitler wasn't as bad as it looks today!" O.K. I guess it can happen that way, but it is clear that Prescott didn't back out despite the carnage that was going on!  I also thought you would throw Joe Kennedy in!  Yet, I thought it would have to do with his bootlegging. "In those days prejudice was popular!" I suspect it is as popular today only it goes under a different names, conservatism! Republicanism! This has to do with "keeping the money where it belongs!" Yes, I have thought about Darwin's contributions to science. Funny how "The Survival of the Fittest" is "Capitalism in a nutshell!" and "Communism" is Christianity! (see the book of Acts!) I understand what you are saying about Democrats, Harry S. Truman, but what I am waiting to see is where Reagan Republicans participated in civil rights marches, anti Vietnam war protest, demanded women get equal pay for equal work! The Republicans who have office today are the same people who opposed these rights throughout the 60's! To say that they are the ones who brought about the changes is something right out of Orwell.


   
« Last Edit: August 05, 2007, 09:23:55 am by DavidM » Logged
EricFoy
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« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2007, 04:07:30 am »

Quote
...the assertion that people who support big business are the same people who support civil rights...

Has someone asserted this?  It seems to me that some people who support big business also support civil rights.  Others may not.  Some who support civil rights also support big business, and some do not.  I don't see an underlying common or mutually exclusive philosophy, either way, except perhaps in the minds of those who would claim their civil right to "a piece of the pie," which presumably must come out of the ownership of big business.

Whereas I agree that many abuses of power (some legal, yet immoral) have been perpetrated by big business historically, these somewhat pale in comparison to the aggregate abuses imposed upon small business over the years, through the implementation of taxation and regulation.  This is going on daily, everywhere, but it doesn't get the same press as the story about a large corporation firing an office clerk for failing to dress according to the company dress code.

The common employee has little idea how much money, which could be his, is instead paid in taxes, or wasted on the cost of his employer's conformance with government regulation.  So he naturally gravitates toward the idea that his piece of the pie must be taken by force through taxes and legislation.  These are the new fascists of our age.  They like to call themselves "progressive" (I'm not speaking only of the Progressive Party).  Their desire is to control our lives.  Progressivism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism), I think, was a necessary movement in our history, and the political changes it brought about in its early days have benefited our society.  But the movement has now outlived its usefulness.  Modern Progressives don't closely resemble their predecessors.

I know a lot of business people (both big and small), and I think it is a mistake to believe that business interests (big or small) and civil rights are mutually exclusive.
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Oscar
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« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2007, 08:51:59 pm »

Eric,

A number of years ago, when I was teaching History in the bi-lingual program of a middle school, I ran into an old slogan.

An eighth grade boy said to me, "Bush es para los ricos, Gore es para los pobres".  I had heard this same idea, using different candidates names, since I was a kid myself.  Now here it was in Spanish!

True Believers usually think in such terms, whatever the cause might be.  Reality, as you have pointed out, is much more complex.  When I read the phrase you quoted about big business I asked a question in my mind: "Would Dave call Ted Turner and Bill Gates conservatives?"  They are both outspoken illiberals yet represent BIG business interests.

I used to chuckle to myself about environmentalists who make the same simplistic distinctions.  They get in their cars built by huge auto companies and drive to meeting places on roads built by huge construction companies. Then they enter houses and buildings built by huge construction companies, walk on carpets manufactured by huge chemical companies, Monsanto and Dow for example. They sit on furniture made by large furniture concerns, dress in clothes imported from all over the world. These are shipped in huge container ships built by huge shipbuilding companies such as Mitsubishi, (their products once delivered less desirable things). These ships are powered by diesel fuel produced by the evil oil companies. So are the trains and trucks which delivered them to the huge warehouses and stores for sale to the environmentalists.  They eat food produced by large agribusiness concerns, sip wine from California, (more trucks and trains). If the wine is imported you need trucks, trains, and ships plus the oil products to run them. The trains btw, are built by GE and GM, not exactly small businesses.  I could go on about the lights, air conditioning, plumbing system, sewage processing, on and on.

Then they comisserate together about the evils of big business.    :rofl:

There certainly have been evils that have come from some big business concerns.  We can do things to limit the evils.  But without big business, life as we know it could not exist. 

Tom Maddux


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EricFoy
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« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2007, 09:58:34 pm »

...reminds me of a similar philosophical conundrum I ran across in 1981-82.  I was attending Cal State, Chico.  Good times, great fun...  Anyway, everyone was all up in arms (pun intended) over nuclear stuff.  Nuclear weapons, nuclear power, nuclear research, whatever.  If it's nuclear, it's bad, and must be eliminated.  I think Chico was the nation's second "nuclear free" zone.  Anyway, one day I'm on my way to class, and I run across some sort of demonstration.  There's this person up on stage behind a microphone, expounding upon the evils of nuclear power.  Now remember, this was the early eighties (think, "Bon Jovi"), and I was like, "Dude! Did you use your blow-dryer at all this week?  Do you ever study at night?"

But you just can't make some people think clearly, can you?
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Joe Sperling
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« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2007, 10:55:00 pm »

"I really don't understand the point you are both trying to make. I happened to read these posts, but am pressed for time--
I'm on my way to a PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) meeting (shines his alligator shoes with a horse hair brush vigoruosly as he speaks) and don't really have much time (-he reaches into the closet for a leather belt-) to respond. Could you please explain your position a bit better because I'm confused about what you're trying to say (inserts Ivory cufflinks into his shirt sleeves). I'll post again tomorrow when I have more time, and please remember, chickens are people too."
« Last Edit: August 16, 2007, 11:08:57 pm by Joe Sperling » Logged
Oscar
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« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2007, 11:23:01 pm »

"I really don't understand the point you are both trying to make. I happened to read these posts, but am pressed for time--
I'm on my way to a PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) meeting (shines his alligator shoes with a horse hair brush vigoruosly as he speaks) and don't really have much time (-he reaches into the closet for a leather belt-) to respond. Could you please explain your position a bit better because I'm confused about what you're trying to say (inserts Ivory cufflinks into his shirt sleeves). I'll post again tomorrow when I have more time, and please remember, chickens are people too."

You unconsionable monster!!!!!   

I am President For Life of PETVIBE.

Ever heard of us??  Believe me you will be hearing from us, you inhuman PETA monster.

PETVIBE stands for People for the ethical Treatment of Viruses and Bacteria.  Our spies have been checking your families' medical records for years.  We have documentary proof that you inhumane Torquemadas have knowingly MURDERED billions of our little virus and bacterial friends.

YOU HAVE HAD YOUR CHILDREN IMMUNIZED AND HAVE TAKEN ANTIBIOTIC DRUGS!!!!

Billions of our small helpless friends have died at your hands.   ALL THEY WERE LOOKING FOR WAS SOMETHING TO EAT!  You Nazis must be in league with the big drug companies.

We are going to come to your meetings and give you the Dukhober treatment!  That will teach you!

Then we will spray you with Penecillin!

YOU WILL BE HEARING FROM US SOON!


Ima Nutcase

President for Life
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