AssemblyBoard

Dear Friends:

I can see that something truly wonderful is about to take place.  As we all become comfortable talking about our Assembly experience, we will soon become aware that many of us have some different ideas about things.  

Some have rejected everything that remotely reminds them of the Assembly.  Others, are perhaps looking for something that is exactly like the Assembly proclaims themselves to be, a "perfect pattern of testimony."  Still others have found pasture in denominaitonal and non-denominational churches like EV Free, Baptist, Calvary Chapel and many others.  Sadly, there are those who no longer even believe in the God of the Bible.

Let me say a few things:

• The intention of this website is to lead people out of bondage and into a love relationship with Jesus Christ
• We know that we may disagree on what the proper church should be like, but we are committed to keeping the unity of the Spirit, in the bond of Peace.
• We believe that these things can be discussed, openly, and in a manner that glorifies God, even though we may disagree on some viewpoints.
• Most importantly, we agree that none of us knows what we ought, none of us has arrived, and we can all learn from eachother.

I can forsee that all sorts of feathers may be ruffled when we discuss things like the proper role of women in the church.  Hiring and firing of pastors, Calvinism and reformed theology, Arminianism, Covenant theology, Dispensational theology, Gifts of The Holy Spirit, etc.

Frankly, it makes me nervous!  However, this was something that was NEVER allowed back at the "lodge."  I look forward to seeing what God will do here in the future.

We have some very strong, intelligent people here, as well as some fragile lambs.  Let's be careful to edify, and not break the bruised reeds out there.

I know that I don't need to remind the vast majority of our visitors here in this section to conduct yourselves in a manner that glorifies God.  There may be some people who want to snipe, etc.  Please, feel free to snipe and ridicule if you must, but if you do it here, we will move it to another section on the forum!

God Bless you all,

Editor

Hello everyone! :D

On my first Sunday at Calvary Chapel, here in SLO, I had a most excellent experience.  My lodge background made me very nervous about what to expect.  I knew that the dress-code was casual.  (Really, that is the dress code, you don't wear a suit and tie to this church for very long.)  

I also knew that there would be music, and in fact there was.  Of course, in the words of the grandmaster, music was "a counterfeit, never seen in the Bible."

I also suspected that there might be women speaking, not teaching mind you, but speaking.

Well, I was right on all three counts.

I was comfortable wearing jeans and a nice shirt.  It didn't distract me at all.

The music was awesome.  The words to the songs were every bit as much about God's glorious name as the hymns.  Furthermore, one of them was a hymn, "When I survey the wondrous cross."

Much to my amazement, there was open worship, we had liberty to pray out loud and bless the Lord.

No woman taught that day, but a very lively, lovely sister did give announcements. The pastor then taught from the Bible, and there was prayer up front afterwards.  People were brought into relationship with Jesus Christ almost every week, and I witnessed growth from about 600, to over 1200 in about 2 years.

During the next two years, I had some real changes in the way I looked at certain things: specificly, the role of music, women, and church government.

I see that music is a real asset, for a couple reasons,

• It is "all things to all men in our modern culture
• It helped me concentrate on what I was singing, quite the opposite of what I was taught before, when my mind wandered all through the universe during worship

I have no problem, with women talking out loud in church.  It doesn't bother me in the least that a woman gives the announcements.  However, I would be bothered if one were to stand up and teach some morning.

I also realized that paying a pastor is no problem at all, as long as the man is a pastor.  If he does it as a job, or a career, then he shouldn't be paid!  In fact, this isn't a pastor.  However, I satisfied myself that the men who were pastors in this church were of high moral character.  They knew the scriptures, demonstrated kindness, patience and compassion, and most importantly,  God was undeniably blessing their ministry.  This church is sending out many missionaries, and all kinds of good things are happening.

What I see now, is not a New Testament Pattern, but New Testament Principles.

My criteria for a church is simple, Is The Lord Present?.  If He is there, than it's OK for me to be there too.  If He is leaving, then I am going to leave also, because I want to follow Him.  If He is not there, then what business do I have being there and calling it a church?

I am far more interested in the Life of the church, than the Light of the church.  They may be great bible scholars, but if the church is stagnant and exclusive, I am uneasy.  On the other hand, there may be thousands of people, but if the Word of God is not preached, I am even more uneasy.

However, if they have a little strength, and keep His word, then I am quite happy.

So, I think we can have some excellent discussion on some of the Bible passages that pertain to some of the things I have just mentioned.

I am really pressed for time at the moment to respond to the first three, but I intend to do so in the most intelligent manner that I am able.  but I would like to respond to the last point about The Lord skinning His knee.

At one time I thought that He was never sick, never cried in anger or frustration as a baby, never hit his thumb when pounding a nail, etc.

I am pretty convinced that this is true, although I don't consider it blasphemy if someone thinks he may have fallen and skinned His knee.  I just don't agree with it.

However, he was acquainted with all of our weakness.  Certainly, if He didn't know what a skinned knee felt like, he knew what it felt like to have the flesh on his back ripped to ribbons.  He knew what it felt like to have a rough piece of wood chafe against the raw flesh of his shoulder. He sweat, He thisted, He was fatigued, He wept, He rejoiced, He was angry, and everything else.  Not to mention the horror He experienced on my behalf when He cried, "My God, My God, Why have You forsaken Me?"

So, to me, the other speculative stuff is maybe not so important.  I cringed the first time we had The Lord's Supper at our church.  The pastor said, "...this is my body which is broken for you."  I immediately judged the man, and actually asked him about Psalm 91.

He patiently listened and answered by saying,  "Have you ever studied what crucifiction does to a person's body?"

Well, he explained it to me.  Jesus didn't have a bone broken, but His body was definitely broken.  So, again, it isn't that big of a deal to say the word "broken" before taking communion.  What is important is to humbly walk with our God.  Confess our sins, and trust in His blood. Not the fact that it may or may not have had heparin, or vitamin K, or clotting factor, etc.,  but rejoice in the fact that it is the precious blood of the Lamb, who takes away the sins of the world.

I'll take a stab at the other three soon.

Brent

Hi Freebird & Others,


That's a good question.  I think the seriousness occurs when the LB's start applying this interpretation in the local assembly.

If we backtrack to Mark 2:27 it says: "And He was saying to them, The Sabbath was made for the sake of man, and not man for the sake of the Sabbath."  The Sabbath was a day of rest and is a picture of our rest in Christ.  If God created man on the Sabbath, then God did not really rest.  With that mindset, neither are we to rest.  This leads to an abusive opportunity to control God's people.  It has been done for many years, but they only had Hebrews 10:25.  Now they have new revelation!  It results in the following abuse:  The meetings are to be observed with strict discipline, any absence is cause for harassment.  The belief is held that brethren need to serve all the meetings rather than being served by the meetings.  This is also one of the reasons why I left.

I welcome input on this.

The Lord bless you,

Eric

Hello everybody:
I too used to get the one about" this is my body which is broken for you." A certain LB wd. always replace broken with given, and then pause and say "his body was not broken, saints." At least where I came from the ministry really wasn't very good. More time was spent telling us what the Lord's Supper was not than giving any kind of decent exposition of the Scriptures as to what it was. I termed the teaching I was getting unsubstantiation. Catholic Church-transubstantiation
      Luther................consubstantiation
Assembly I attended-see above
  I apologize for the sarcasm that probably ekes out of this post but sometimes after the "ministry" I wondered why I
 was there sometimes. Perhaps this is a common phenomena.

If God created the Sabbath for man, then man was already created. This is not the strongest argument against George's very odd teaching, reading the verses is much more powerful, but it does lend itself to the priority of the two events in creation.

If our Inhereitance was based on law, none of us would ever get it. Especially those of us who made the mistake of following Assembly practice for so long.

Christ died to fulfill the law, among other wonderful things.  In doing this, he obtained an Inheritance.  We are sealed by the Holy Spirit, and we are adopted as sons,  all by divinely revealed faith. NOT OF WORKS!  If I get more Inheritance than you because I tried harder, I have reason to boast. NO! NO! NO! It is because of Christ.  We owe it all to Him.

Now, here is where it gets sticky to me.  I realized about two years ago that I was not near the bible scholar that I had previously thought.  I am even worse off now.

I studied a little about reformed theology, which was incredibly helpful in learning about grace. I still have a very hard time with all 5 points in Calvinism however. I guess I'm a 3 and one half pointer.

I reject Arminianism, for much the same reasons that reformed guys do.  I don't believe I can lose my salvation, and I don't believe it all hinges on me.

I really can't figure out some of the other views out there, and I have been purposely avoiding them for the present.  Right now, I feel like a new believer, who memorized the bible while studying with JW's.

I know a lot of stuff. I can identify what's wrong quite well, but I am rather ignorant past that.

So, I decided to be a simple believer, and stick to the basics.  Jesus loves me. He saved me. Amazingly, I love Him, and want to please Him.

I know he can speak to me, and he is.  Even from this website and all of its humor!  He can also lead me from His Word, and He is.

I am going to make lots of mistakes, but He has taught me a slight amount of humility over that last two years. Now, if someone hits me over the head with a 2x4, I listen after the first or second time.  Before, I never did.

I know that I can't go wrong if I confess my sin, and trust Him to lead me.  I am really looking forward to the coming year.

Brent

GX:
I forgot to say that I lean in your direction re. the Lord Jesus and the potential for injury. If he truly had a human nature-by divine prerogative-and willed for himself our lot(excepting a sin nature) it is very possible. I think the Psalms promise is general in the sense that if something is not part of the Divine Plan in terms of the ways the Lord
Jesus wd. suffer, thenhe wd. be protected from it. We don't really know either way re. "skinning his knee," etc.  was part and parcel of "being in all things like his brethren" and I am sure that you are not obsessing over this one. It is an interesting question....
Isn't this the greatness of the Lord Jesus, that He had His prerogatives as God and yet He chose ourlot? This is condescension, not men who tell us what a great thing it is that they are in our midst." What moves me is to think that God Himself knows our condition not just by virtue of His Omniscience-His Deity- but also by
His participation in our human nature(experience). This is the GREAT difference between Jesus and all other would-be avatars. Keeping this in mind grounds us in the truth that God is love. Also it frees me to celebrate His arrival(Christmas) if I so choose.

Hey Garth

I love that book. It is one of the books I recommend people to read when they are hung up on the inheritance stuff.  

I agree with you RE baby Jesus crying, of course He cried.  I just don't think He cried in anger and rebellion like most children do.  I also think He was always at peace, so He didn't cry in frustration.

However, lest this  become a foolish strife generating argument, I concede that it is entirely within the realm of reason to expect that when learning to walk, He fell down.

On to better things,  I was actually going to quote certain passages from Galatians, and from WW's commentary to answer the Inheritance questions. Perhaps today at lunch.

Go ahead and take a stab at it Garth.

Brent

Hi To All Bible Scholars,
  This is a great topic as The Assembly has a very unique set of hermenutics that understanding helped me considerably in my post Assembly life.
   Somewhere ( I forget where in the multudes of posts') the issue of whether or not certain scripture is more important than other scripture was raised.  Jesus himself stated that the Pharisees gave greater creedence to lesser things of the law while not seeking those values that were of greater value.  Jesus also taught that all of the law could be condensed into two main points: Love of God and love of my neighbor.
  Bible based cults delight in teaching that they are very diligent students of the Word (ex.= J.W."s) but their method of study is very unbalanced.  They will stress a verse that talks about "life in the blood" and totally miss the doctrine of the grace of God.  GG, in an attempt to prove his teaching of a conditional entry into Heaven, jumps around in his Bible and is able to put together "proof texts" but ignores the clear message of the entire New Test. that the inheritance is part of our salvation and as such is "reserved in Heaven for us".
   Possibly the most dangerous aspect of GG's teaching is his discussion on "receiving revelation".  GG made fun of Bible study as being unspiritual and the mind was not to be trusted.  You must get into a special "meditative" state in order to really understand the Word (shall we chant OM?).
     I'm enjoying all the Posts' greatly!  Merry Christmas and God Bless,  Mark                                                  

Garth

The reading that got me to open my eyes, was, in this order:

Haggai
Finding the Church, by Albert Zehr
The Geftakys File from Spiritual Counterfeit Project, http://www.scp-inc.org (http://www.scp-inc.org)
The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse
A book about Mormonism, (i forget the title ???)
Be Free, by Bro. Wiersbe  :D

This book was the study guide for the fist bible study I went to in our new, compromised church.  At first, I was dissappointed when I heard we were going to use a commentary.  I didn't need one, I had most of the book memorized!  I believed that studying the bible alone was the proper thing to do. (Funny, this is part of the Lodge bylaws, but they all use George's commentary. Interesting eh?)

Well, I changed my mind pretty fast.  In the Lodge, Galatians would have taken exactly 7 weeks. Overview and chaps. 1-6.  Period.  Every brother preaching would say, "We don't have time to really develop this, so I'm just going to share the burden I got from the chapter."

However, in this new bible study, we took 5 months to go thru the book.  Be Free was not ever studied, we never brought it to the bible study, we simply used Warren's outline of the book.  I never learned so much in a Bible study.

I learned who the Galatians were, and the two major theory's regarding them, the north and south theorys.

I learned all kinds of things about the Jewish customs that the Judaizers were using to bewitch the disciples.  With this background information, which was what the people that Paul was writing to were thinking about, I was able to see why the book was written. Amazing!  It was then that I really came to grips about how totally ignorant I was regarding the Bible.  Here is one example:

3:1  O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?  2  This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?  3  Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?  4  Have you suffered so many things in vain--if indeed [it] [was] in vain?  5  Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, [does] [He] [do] [it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?--  6  just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."  7  Therefore know that [only] those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.  8  And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, [saying], "In you all the nations shall be blessed."  9  So then those who [are] of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

For some reason, in the Lodge, the book of Galatians was called, "The Book of The Inheritance."  The key was Gal 2:20.  The book was all about the way of the cross, etc. Nothing but Assembly ideas.

However, the book is REALLY about a region where a bad spiritual influence, a false "gospel," came in and bewitched the believers.  What was the false "gospel?"

It went like this:  Yes, you must be saved, you must believe, but that is only the beginning.  Faith in Christ must be supplemented by obedience to the Law. You must add to your faith Holy behaviour and obedience.  That is how you can be really saved.  You can't get saved and continue to live like a gentile(worldly person, Galatian culture, etc.)  You must now live like we do.(Training homes, weekly meetings, submission to our customs and practices.)

My mind raced along this pathway:  "Wow, God gave me His Spirit when I believed, not when I was doing the right things. If I began like that, with faith only, how is it that I am convinced that in order to continue I must do all this?"  

Gal 4:15  What has happened to all your joy? I can testify that, if you could have done so, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me.  16  Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?  17  Those people are zealous to win you over, but for no good. What they want is to alienate you [from us], so that you may be zealous for them.  18  It is fine to be zealous, provided the purpose is good, and to be so always and not just when I am with you.  19  My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you,

Wow, these people lost their joy!  They had it in the beginning, but now it's gone. Hmm, the leaders were zealously courting them, in order to exclude them from other believers.....hmmmm.    Wow! Paul called them children! They had started out as sons, but had regressed to children.  They thought their faith was growing, but really it was shrinking.  Hmmm, I think I understand.  OK, what about this sons, and children and tutor thing.....Oh my, the child who needs a tutor is a Jew, not a believer!  Paul is saying, to the gentile believers, "Why are you going back to the tutor, acting like children, when you are sons?"

Boom!  All of a sudden, I realized that I had been bewitched. Now I knew why George hated "systematic theology, Cemetary," commentaries, etc.  He was zealously courting us to be his own devoted followers.  I had become duped by one of the oldest games in the Book!  Now I knew what had happened to my joy in Christ.

Well, to make a long story short, here I am.  BTW, the reason Paul wrote the epistle was not to preach mysticism and the wheel and the line, it was to contend for the faith, and to expose the false brethren, who were accursed because they preached another gospel!

I hope this helps begin the discusion on the Inheritance.

Brent

Hi Brent and Others,
  I think your discussion of Galatians starts and ends the discussion of the GG error re. the inheritance.
  You are absolutely correct that GG by moving his listeners into the realm of "meditation" that he espoused set them up for his bewitchment.  I like the Phillips translation where he calls the Galatians "Dear Idiots", for falling for the deception they were being fed. (boy were we ever! :()  
   GG would take away any sense of context (who was Paul speaking to, what was the culture of the day, figures of speech, etc.).  GG could sweep through scripture starting with Abe., the exodus, wandering of Israel, in the Land, David, Gospels, and Epistles, and pull out concepts that seemed to support his Inheritance teaching.  GG's method of interpretation was to place the above parts of scripture into categories that he established.  The establishment of these categories forced all texts into his presuppositions regardless of their original contexts'.  An example would be the Nation of Israel and their "Salvation" from Egypt, their wandering in the wilderness, and their eventual non-entry into the Land:  This to GG taught that not all believers would enter the Inheritance, regaradless of what the NT teaches re. same.
    I have discovered it makes much better sense to study the NT first to see what it teaches re. the inheritance and then to interpret the OT scripture with the understanding of same.
   A book that was very helpful to me re. GG's teaching is called, "A theology of the Holy Spirit", by Frederick Dale Bruner.  The book is actually a rebuttal to "higher life" teaching as taught by the old line Pentecostals.  Another book that was a great blessing is, "Grace, The Glorious Theme", by Lewis Sperry Chafer.  The first author is Reformed and the next is a Dispensationlist, but both reject GG "inheritance" teaching.
                                             God Bless,  Mark  

Garth

The thread is now unlocked!  The vision is free to flow!

First of all, with regard to the Wheel and Line.  I don't have any beef whatever with Dr. Solomon. While I don't agree with much of what he teaches, let's be clear, he has nothing to do with the abuse that goes on in the Assemblies, nor does he sanction or excuse it in any way.  I did have some correspondence with him about 2 years ago, regarding GG.  CS had the mistaken impression that George was greek, and understood greek.  I "elightened him," we shared some pleasantries and that was that.  He also agreed with me that [his] teaching on "The Cross," was for an individual believer, not for a "corporate gathering." He also stated that this misapplication of his teaching could very well lead to some of the probelms that I told him about within the Geftakys ministry.  He also said that he was under the impression that MANY who served with George had "greatly benefited," from his teachings about the cross.  So, George is right, "Chuck doesn't see the church."  I think if Chuck got a glimpse of the "church" George was referring to, he might have a thing or two to say about it.  George got CS to attend a worker's meeting once, in the late '80's.  I think he was up there for a few hours.  From this brief visit, George and Betty used his name to lend credibility to their ministry.  Again, although I don't agree with CS, I have no beef with him, and he has in fact helped a great many people.

I don't agree with the Wheel and Line, but my problem is more along the lines of what Lodge leaders DO with it, as opposed to what it is actually saying.

George, and mostly Betty, have taken the Identification truths, and perverted them in such a way that they are used as clubs and sticks in order to get people under control.  Solomon's teachings, while certainly not meant to be used this way by their author, were twisted by BG so that "worries, doubts, fears," were always a sign of "S" being in the center, which was sin!

So, let's say I am worried that Judy has a black eye and purple marks around her neck. (I was worried when I saw this)  Well, Christ is in control!  If He is in control, then why are we so worried?  Isn't that just the flesh, trying to get in there and muck things up? This is one example.

Another is this.  Picture a new believer, who is full of Joy!  They just quit an immoral life style, delivered by the grace of God.  They are washed and cleansed.  They are exactly where they should be, all is well, they are in a position to grow in grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.  Then, they meet a person on campus.  Their zeal makes them open to these more "mature" brothers, who begin to teach them about all these theorys about spirit, soul, body, one nature, the other nature, the cross, the wheel, the line, etc.  This new believer now becomes introspective, they second guess every decision and impulse. They don't spontaneously glorify God anymore, now they are careful, trying to make sure that the rascal "Self," isn't usurping Christ.  This is NOT what Solomon had in mind.  The person I have described above is already doing what Solomon says they should.  The lodge guys came along and ruined everything.

There are many examples like this.

Now, on the other level, I am not a fan of "Deeper Life," for a host of other reasons. I'll go into those later. Have you read my book?

Brent

Hi Brent,
  I'm afraid I missed the teaching on "The Wheel and The Line."(I am aware of the "wheel in a wheel" of Ezekiel).
  I gather from what you said that it has to do with our identification with Christ.  We are supposed to wave the magic wand of "reckoning faith" and all the bad things will go away (and they say Harry Potter is bad).  When we sense evil in our hearts it is not time to wave magic talismans, be they saying the Rosery, or any other "word" to ward off the evil spirits.
  God has set eternity in our hearts and when we start to play the Holy Spirit by attempting to grapple with the old man we fight the losing battle of Romans 7.  Instead we need to simply understand the fact of our salvation as being complete and secure.  Yes, God has won the battle over sin and we need to recognize it, but what GG means by the word "reckon" is to actualize the fact of the cross.  Only God has the wisdom and the power to actualize our salvation and he certainly doesn't need our assistance, nor does he help those who help themselves in this matter.
   This is why Paul breathes such a sigh of relief in Rom. 8 where he recognizes the sovereignty of God in our salvation and the absolute confidence in the power of the Holy Spirit to bring our salvation to completion.
   No Heavenly Ladders to climb, old men to crucify, or other tricky inner doings; just a simple trust in the promise of God.  Romans 6 is really a discussion of justification and mentions sanctification as the result of the former.  We know this by the last verse where he concludes the chapter with the words, "the GIFT of eternal life".  Rom. 6 is a argument against those who claim grace is amoral and that the doctrine would lead to a sinful life.  Those who believe such things are ignorant of the power of God in the lives of those who are saved.  Paul does not teach here that all sin will be erradicated in the believers life, but that grace puts us on that road to completion and that God will bring us there.         God Bless,  Mark (Global moderator? ;))  

Hello all:

I don't think we need waste space on the database for this server trying to argue against this whacko teaching by using the bible. EVERYONE knows this is just plain false.  Even George says that, "six is the number of man. Seven is the number of spiritual perfection."  To engage in debate with this Bozo over this doctrine is to give it and him WAY TOO MUCH credibility.  It's wrong and any fool, (almost any) can see it! case closed.

The real question, which you brought up, is how a teaching like this can be permitted and accepted.

I believe the answer is this:

People do not accept it. Even though GG teaches it, they don't believe it
• It is not permitted, but tolerated.  This is because the average saint has been taught passivity, and the leaders are legendary cowards

I guarantee that Mark Miller, Jim Hayman, et al, don't believe that man was created on the seventh day.  Neither does anyone else, I hope.  However, just because they don't believe it doesn't mean that the teaching is not powerful. Let me explain.

I see that there is a lying spirit, a teaching demon, behind this.  The goal of the teaching is not to get people to believe that man was created on the seventh day, but to condition people to accept extra-biblical ideas!  If we let this one slip past, the next won't be so hard.  Then the next, and so on.  Our conscience's will become seared, we lose the ability to think and resist, and now we are open to anything.  This is how real live heretical cults are born.

Marshall Applewhite, of Heaven's Gate was once a pentecostal preacher.  Some of his vodka swilling followers were with him when he was a "christian."

Jim Jones was a "Kristian," when they ordered the case of kool-aide.  My point is that this teaching in itself is almost harmless.  It is the acceptance and toleration of the man and his twisting of the scriptures that is so dangerous.

This must be stopped!  It is very serious.  If we care one ounce for the people in the Assembly, we will do something about this, which is exactly what this website is for.

2 Tim 4:4 and they will turn  their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

Brent

Hi Garth

I think you got it pretty much right.  Deeper Life proponents have made some contrubutions, valuable ones. But to elevated their ideas to the level where their words become God's words is a real danger.

Also, anything can be twisted, including Paul's epistles.

The main problem I have with the whole deeper life idea is that it promotes a second, deeper conversion, IN Addition To, salvation.  While I don't disagree with the exposition of the fullness of our salvation, I think it needs to be said that it is all part of salvation, not a second conversion.

I also don't agree with the One-Nature teaching that Solomon and the Deeper Life guys propound.

Shall we get into that some time?

Brent

Greetings Freebird:
I second your observations. The deeper life is a pretty vast subject. It has helped me for sure, and many others, no doubt. All mystics are not mistakes. Geftakys' use-or misuse- of mysticism/DLT has been well-described by Brent and Mark Campbell, but I don't think issuing a fatwah on the whole thing is appropriate.
Yours,
Sebastian Andrew

Hi All,
  We've all pretty much figured out that GG used "deeper life" teaching as a tool for control (see my article on False Holiness), but apart from Assembly misuse are there any dangers with this teaching?
  Brent, your book gives an excellent look at what "deeper life" pursuit becomes in reality.
  Deeper life means the pursuit of deeper experiences in my life of Christ.  This, in itself, sounds very positive, but what does it actually mean? In Pentecostalism it means having "spiritual power" to perform miraculous works for God.  GG would say it is to have "moral power" to overcome the "self life" and express Christ.
  The NT teaches that the result of the experience of Christ in my life is love; love being like God's love, which is sacraficial in nature.
   When we attempt to "go beyond" to deeper experiences of the Spirit through techniques that we actualize ourselves we have left grace and placed ourselves squarely in Rom. 7 where we are attempting to implement what is "good" in our lives.  Doesn't the Bible teach us to apply what is good and to eschew evil?  Yes, we are most certainly urged to obey what is good, but not as a means to attain "deeper life" but as a result of our salvation.
   Deeper life teaching leads to a sense of elitism, as the adherents claim that they are somehow more spiritual then their "less deep" brethren.  If we "think" we are more "spiritual" then Paul says we should be involved in the same kind of restorative work that Jesus did in salvation by lifting our needy brethren instead of looking down our noses at them (Assembly elitism).  In these elitist systems I see little care for those struggling and much concern re. one's own pursuit of "holiness".

Brent,
When I left the Assembly, my first inclination was to reject everything that reminded me of the Assembly, but unfortunately, I rejected God also.  I was angry and depressed.  But, thanks to some very faithful friends, I asked God to forgive me for forsaking Him, and now I want to go His way! :D

I no longer blame God for bringing me into the Assembly for nine years.  I believe He allowed this so that I could appreciate Him more.  And I appreciate Him a lot more.  It's all about loving Him, not about trying to change my behavior so He can be pleased with me.  I don't do flags charts any longer, and I don't pray the "Selfer's prayer".  I pray, "God, please forgive me", and He does! ;D

That is Great Eulaha!
   What you just said in your last post is a most wonderful discovery :)!  I made a similar discovery after I left.  I wasn't angry at God, but felt that maybe I had been abandoned by him because I left "God's true church."  
   I was driving around and saw a bumper sticker that said, "Jesus is my best friend" and I suddenly realized that this was not a trite little saying but was true!  GG always taught that Jesus wasn't "a buddy on the beach" but was a high, holy, and very unapproachable person. (Speaking of Christmas) The high holy God of eternity was born, lived on earth, and died on the cross that we might forever be united in love!  The friendship that Jesus extends to us does not leave when we sin; on the contrary, it is then that he draws near to us.  
   I don't know if you read the post I wrote re. Wounded Pilgrims, but I believe that little wounded one's who come out of groups like the Assembly are the apple of his eye.  Jesus was wounded through the attacks of the false religious system of his day and Jesus always had very harsh words for them.  To the poor battered known sinners that Jesus met he gave a message of grace and hope--(they love much because they were forgiven much).
   Don't be too hard on yourself re. your anger because it wasn't really rejection of God, but of a system that distorted who God really is.
    I write this not only to you Eulaha, but to others who may read and feel the same as you did.  God's heart aches for his little wounded pilgrims; see him as he really is---The Friend of Sinners! :)     God is Blessed,  Mark

Good Morning Garth

First of all, I'm not down on Deeper Life teachers, nor have I completely shut out everything I learned in the Assembly!  The baby is still here, while most of the bath water is out the window.  Much to learn, YOU BET!  Am I ready to fight to the death against One-naturism?  Absolutely not!

You are correct, it was the application of these teachings that did far more damage than the teachings themselves.  God is well able to perfect us, in spite of the fact that none of us understands anything the way we ought.  The problem comes when we are convinced we do understand, and we are convinced that our understanding is the complete and total truth presented in the scripture.  The important thing is that we know HIm and are found in Him.  Child-like faith is precious to the Lord.

Anyhow:

One-nature= the new nature is sinless, in Christ, but the old nature is dead, buried. But the new nature is so weak that the old nature's "programming" is able to dominate us most of the time, and trouble us for the duration of our lives!
In this model, Death, a la Roman's 6 is anhililation. To quote Betty, "How can the old man sin?  How can a corpse get out of the coffin."  Think this out, in the context of Roman's applying the same type of logic that Paul displays and I believe you arrive at an impasse.  Christ's new creation, and therefore His atoning work on the cross is not able to rid us of "old programming."  He needs us and our effort in order for the glorious new man to come forth.

Two Natures.  Death in Rom 6 is seperation. While the old Adamic nature still is very much alive (dead, like an unbeliever, but alive) we have been seperated from it.  It no longer has power over us.  We are free to serve and live in the spirit.  To make a long story short.  If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us, and cleanse us.  When we do this, prompted by the Holy Spirit, we are whole, fellowship is restored, etc.

We shall get into this more, but for now, think about it. Take each position, as Paul does, to the logical conclusion.  Think about Jesus' words, "It is finished."  This doesn't mean, "It has begun."

Now, please understand, I do not think that I have a firm grasp on all of this. I have many questions.  I reserve the right to change my mind and be convinced of another opinion, but at the same time, I also know that Christ's new creation CANNOT sin.  If the old man is "dead and gone," which is what most of the Deeper Life guys teach, then we must conclude that the new man is pretty weak.  At least that is how I see it.

OK, the lid is off the can.  Now, shall we bite and devour one another?  No, I think not.  I think this is awesome.  We can discuss the scriptures, and speak one to another.

Brent

Hi Garth, Brent, and other Biblical scholars.
  I think it is great to freely discuss these ideas as it is an opportunity to learn and grow.  I wish to enter the fray with my opinions, but like Brent, I am open to change.
   Of course I carry to the discussion my former indoctrination in a system that destroyed lives and as such makes me suspicious of any teaching that seems to support Assembly teaching.  It seems to me that GG liberally borrowed from many competing views that he gathered over the years, and this only adds to the confusion.
   One Naturism:  I side with the view that we have two natures, and whether this is just a semantic difference or not, it is what conclusions we draw from this teaching that can lead to serious harm to the Christian.   Often in history the teaching of One Naturism has been taken to mean some version of perfectionism.  From the Catholic mystics, Wesley, Salvation Army, Overcomer teachers, old line Pentecostals, The Assembly, etc. have taken the teaching to mean that we can attain perfection in this life.  This has led to suicide, nervous breakdowns, hypocrisy, and a general condition of "spiritual" self preoccupation.  Any teaching that denies what is honestly going on in my life is not healthy.
   Garth, your example of a homosexual struggling with his predisposition to this sin is a good one.  We all struggle with different natural dispositions(weakness)and it is this curse that brings us to God for help.  Betty taught, re. the Christian life, that we don't need to come to God for help because the finished work of Christ has already made us new creations and we have all the help we need.  In reality our interaction with God as Christians is much more complicated then some kind of a "Wheel and a Line" system that we are to implement in our lives.  We are not honest with ourselves (thus the growing psychotherapy business) and will ultimately fail in our attempts to actualize the new life in Christ via, "reckoning dead", "taking the place", "climbing heavenly ladders", etc.  
  GG, and his predecessors in perfectionism/overcoming teaching, all think they have not sinned for years!  Luther stated, "I sin daily", and I think he is closer to the truth.
   Next, is the teaching of Rom.7 of which the language clearly places Paul in the present tense.  I side with Reformed teaching re. their interpretation of this passage.  I will have to explain later as I have made this post too long already.
    I'm sure you understand the way GG twisted the teaching of One Naturism and I am not suggesting you would support such nonsense, but I think you must ask yourself where my understanding of scripture could lead and always ask what is my actual experience lest we fall into the error of explaining away things in our lives that are better faced honestly.
                                       God Bless,  Mark

Hi Garth

Greg must be attending a church with a reformed slant. Am I right Greg?
Basically, the five points of Calvin are found in the acronym TULIP

• Total depravity
• Unconditional Election
• Limited Atonement
• Irresitstable grace
• Perseverance of the saints

The part Greg was referring to, whether Christ died for all men, or just the church(elect is more correct) is part of the "L" in TULIP.

If you are not familiar with reformed teaching, I highly reccomend you educate yourself.  You will not hear God's grace taught with more clarity than when a real live reformed preacher teaches it.  I reccomend Sinclair Ferguson or RC Sproul.

I am not a 5 point Calvinist, but I love hearing one preach the Gospel.  Learning about this will definitely challenge and bless you.  Again, I'm not a calvinist, but a serious student of the Bible should definitely be familiar with reformed theology. After all, God used men like Calvin and Luther to recover the doctrine of Justification by grace, through faith alone.  That is pretty important, I'd say. It bears serious consideration.

I am currently stalling in my study of dispensational theology, so I can't add much on that topic without going over my head.  (really, same with almost anything, I am quite a novice really, but I am good at debunking Lodge bylaws ;) )

Perhaps Brother Malone would like to say something here?  Surely he must be a dispensationalist?  John?

Brent

Yes he was, a five pointer.  And I agree, he was a beautiful preacher, one of the best.

However, I still have a hard time with some of the corrolaries of reformed theology.  I have a hard time with the idea that man does not have free will.  I also, have a hard time with limited atonement.

But, if I had to choose from one of the big "systems,"  I guess I would choose reformed, because I never get tired of hearing about Christ.  And they really preach it.  (the good ones)

Gladly, we have the whole bible, and not just the parts that prove our theological bents.

Brent

Hey! You guys!

I think I figured out the deal with John.  He thinks that we are engaging in mostly a touchy/feely thing here, and he wants to have some serious talk about the Bible, or scriptures, as he likes to call them.

John, you have said that GL's have poor understanding of the scriptures. I could not agree with your more, except that the real problem is that we think we know a whole bunch.  What cured me is when I realized that JW's also know a whole bunch...

So, give us some of your insight into what a GL might benefit from. (You can't say, "what do you think I have been doing?") If you do this by calling me a "momma's boy," or something like that I am going to have the editor demote you!

Seriously, choose a Lodge error, and show us how the scriptures led you out of the error.  It will no doubt be helpful to many, and , if I can get you to shut up and say something, we will all be much happier. ;D

Brent

I have a question for you all:  what does the scripture say about dating a non-believer?  I believe that the scripture does not support MARRYING a non-beleiver, but what about dating one?  Answer quickly-I've got to give an answer to a couple of guys wanting to take me out, yet they are not  Christians.... :o

The only thing I can think of is 2Cor 6:14a which says, "By ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers..."  Now, I know that you are not marrying this guy(s), you are just "going out".  However, I know that once your emotions get entangled with someone, it is alot more difficult to disentangle yourself at that point.  Having had a child out of wedlock and had to deal with her father (who for 9-10 years of my daughter's life he was not saved) it is rather difficult to deal with an unbeliever in these kind of areas (too long to go into detail here-give me a call and we can talk!)

My encouragement to you (and this is just an encouragement, you have to make your decision before the Lord, I am not your judge) is to see these people in a group situation.  They can get to know you as a friend.  If there is a genuine interest in you as a person that would develop into something more, you most definately would want to share a spiritual relationship with that person.  Time will tell whether that person would come to Christ or not.  But to get in a relationship hoping that they will get saved is a tad foolish.  I have been married now almost 10 years to a believer.  Marriage is hard enough when you are on the same spiritual page.  I can't even imagine what it would be like to an unbeliever.  Any sisters out there who have experienced this who would like to contribute to the edification of this topic?

Also, 1Cor 6:12 - "All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any."

Much love in your consideration,

Kimberley

I recently received an email from a current Assembly member, and I was told that I could only find the will of God with other believers (not on my own).  Is this true?  I have not been in a church for over a year now-does this mean I have never found the will of God because I have not fellowshipped with other believers? Help!  ???

Hi Eulaha,

I'm not surprised an assemby member sent you an email.  A simple answer for you is no to both questions!  I've received some pretty non-scriptural, but interesting comments since I've left.  There are four things I've noticed.

First, the assembly believes that God only speaks through the assembly or corporate gathering.  We know from scripture that God speaks to individuals such as, Abraham, Gideon, Job,...

Second, although you and I have left the assembly, they don't consider us to have really left.  They may still try to control you and, for that matter, try to bring you to "repentance".

Third, I've been studying assembly false teaching lately and here is something that has been preached numerous times.  I quote Andrew Gunther, a LB in the valley assembly, "But we apostles, but we Corinthians, we have the mind of Christ.  Now that's a wonderful thing. That's the responsibility of leadership to ascertain and stand for the mind of the Lord."  The problem with this and so much of assembly teaching is that the only way to support false teaching is to add to the word of God.  The assembly believes and implies in its emails (and comments) that the leadership knows the will of God and if God speaks to us, we must go to leadership to get counsel on what to do.  This is entirely false and merely a method to control God's people.

Fourth, although I believe from scripture that we all need to be in a church, the assembly ignores some clear passages.  The word of God says, "...And I will keep watch to see what He will speak to me, and how I may reply when I am reproved." (Habakkuk 2:1)

John 16:13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come."

Acts 9:11 "11 And the Lord said to him,..."

Gen. 25:22-23 "But the children struggled together within her; and she said, “If it is so, why then am I this way?” So she went to inquire of the Lord.  And the Lord said to her,..."

I hope this helps.  Lord bless you.

Eric

Eulaha:

You will never be free from the bonds of the unbiblical Assembly Way if you do not learn to find God's will for yourself.  This crap the Assembly teaches about a special dispensation of wisdom upon the LB's, and a special blessing upon those who obey them is just that...crap....garbage...disease infested oozing maggot breeding doggie doo-doo.  (I'll probably get kicked out of the kingdom and spend all of eternity in heaven's 'burbs for saying that).  Nevertheless, it is an evil and wicked teaching that encourages well-intended believers to go against their conscience.  Having had this teaching pounded into us for so long, it can be hard to let go of.  Often, we are afraid that if we don't get the LB's blessing, then God will not bless our undertaking.  This is not true.  I've seen more people suffer from the LB's nosy meddling than I have from people who earnestly sought God's will on their own, and made some mistakes along the way.  Did you ever notice that with very, very, very, few exceptions that the LB's would assure you that leaving the Assembly was not God's will, that you were deceived, that you would lose the "covering" of the Assembly, that in short, you would be spiritual road-kill if you left.  Eulaha, the best thing you ever did was to leave.  You didn't make that decision under the direction of the LB's.  You made it on your own.  Get godly council.  Seek the Word.  Pray about you questions.  Then decide before God.  He won't get mad at you!  God loves you very much, sister, and he has all grace for you to live and walk in liberty without guilt or condemnation.

I miss you!!

Tom

Amen to that!
It is great to know that God deigns to use a good counselor to help you to do those things that Tom mentioned, too. Why does God use evangelists? Can't He save you directly? Yes, He can if He wants to. Often God uses them. It  might be said "I don't find christian psychologists in the Bible." Because something  isn't in the Bible doesn't mean it is therefore forbidden. Tom Maddux (Oscar) made a good point that psychology is simply the study of how the mind works. So really there are good psychologists and bad ones.
God willing you can find a psychologist with biblical presuppositions(a skilled Christian). I have heard good things about Wellspring
and get their newsletter.
God bless,
Sebastian Andrew

Eulaha, I just posted under a different thread (Wounded Pilgrims?) about my own therapy experience.  Until one has been through it, I don't think they are qualified to comment effectively on it.  

I support you.  :-*

In the Bible, God spoke to someone via a donkey! ;D

I can hear the voice of God in nature, by reading the posts on the bulletin board.  I'm so glad God is not limited.

I remember the chapter summary times, when we all HAD to hear God's voice thru the particular chapter we were reading.  Sometimes I didn't hear God's voice, but I made up some chapter summary cause it was the thing to do, you know?  Sometimes God may not speak to you via a particular verse, I beleive that now... ;)

But also, remember that not every speaking donkey ;D is the voice of God.

There is safety in getting good counsel, but in the end the decision has to be what the Lord shows you.  You can not live your life based on what others think is right.  You must do what you know is right.

Rom 14:12  So then each one of us shall give account of himself to God.

"Here's some dispensational truth: in the Old Testament, it was a miracle when a jackass spoke. In the New Testament, it's a miracle when one shuts up."

Take your own advice, John.

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The song I find myself singing is Charles Wesley's And can it be that I should gain

Long my imprisoned spirit lay,
Fast bound in sin and nature’s night;
Thine eye diffused a quickening ray—
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.

No condemnation now I dread;
Jesus, and all in Him, is mine;
Alive in Him, my living Head,
And clothed in righteousness divine,
Bold I approach th’eternal throne,
And claim the crown, through Christ my own.

Acts 16:26  And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison shook, and all the doors were immediately opened, and the bonds of all loosed.

Another Promise for the New Year:

Is 43:19  Behold, I will do a new thing; now will it spring forth; will you not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.

Acts 12:7  And behold, an angel of the Lord stood by him, and a light shined in the cell: and he smote Peter on the side, and awoke him, saying, Rise up quickly. And his chains fell off from his hands.

1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has taken you but such as is according to man’s nature; and God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above what you are able to bear, but will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

The Lord will "make a way" where there was no way!

Garth,
Regarding your question "Did GG really say that he didn't sin any more?"

In one of my last conversations with GG I discussed with him a passage he had preached on from Matthew.  It contained the statement, "Be ye perfect even as your father in heaven is perfect."
The idea was that you are really going to work hard at holiness if you wish to be an overcomer.  (shiver).  
I asked him, "Have you attained this standard?"  His answer was, "I am not conscious of having sinned in years"!  :o :o

By this time I had figured out that the Lord's Servant, He Who Bore Apostolic Authority, The One To Whom "This Ministry" Was Committed, was an card carrying citizen of LA LA LAND  ;D  ;D,
so I filed this information in my "I'm outta here" file.
God bless,
Tom M.

Hi Greg :)!
  Boy, you sure can pick a controversial passage for discussion.  I remember Steve's message as well and remember being shocked to hear it at the time.  Actually, the interpretation he gave is a very common one given by those who believe "once saved, always saved."  Steve probably got it from a commentary and missed receiving the company spin from GG on these verses.  GG believed the passage was refering to losing out on your inheritance, but not your salvation.  Church of Christ teaches that the passage proves we can lose our salvation.
  I must get to bed, but will try to respond more tomorrow.
                                              God bless,  Mark

Hi Greg  :)

Thanks for bringing up something to chew on.  It's hard for me to feel hard and fast one way or another because in my own life, I have known people who have known the Lord, then fallen away and denied Him with their lives (and some with their tongues) and then again taken up their cross and are now living joyful lives in Him.  

On the other hand, the words of the scripture in this particular passage do seem clear.  

Maybe they never really knew Him in the first place?

On the other hand, I think of the parable of the prodigal son.  Would the Lord not greet returning lost sheep as the father greeted his son?  

I am looking forward to hearing what others have to say on this.

Believing in the eternal security of believers, I think that the Lord is referring to the danger of backsliding.  I don't believe that it is saying that either one loses his salvation (a la Church of Christ, et al) or, as Karen conjectured, "Maybe they never really knew Him in the first place" (a la Harry Ironside and many fundamentalists). Both of these views lead us to insecurity. I'm either in fear of losing my salvation someday by some unknown level of sin or I'm constantly nagged by doubting whether I was really saved in the first place.  In view of this passage, I've always clung to Mt 19:25 & 26 believing that God is able for me by his mercy & grace which overrides that which is impossible for me to do.

It also has tended to work carefulness.  I am painfully aware of my propensities for sin and (what seems to me) the possibility of becoming deceived and stuck in my own sin.  The mention at the end of "to be burned" brings to mind 1Co 3:13 & 15, which speaks of fire trying our work.   I don't like being burned.

However, if I'm walking in the faith of Jesus, which I know He has commanded me, the theology (inheritance, loss of salvation, etc.) of this passage becomes less important and actually living in a way that honors Him becomes more important.

I believe the issue is whether the Lord got "fruit" in their lives.

The passage Heb 6:7-8 specifically says that these ones never bore fruit in their lives.

Mat 7:20  Therefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

There are many other passages that show eternal security for those who have had the reality of the Lord's working in their lives.
Phil 1:6  being confident of this very thing, that he who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Those that hear His voice and follow
Mat 10:27  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28  and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
29   My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30  I and the Father are one.

There's something wonderful about today!
We're free! We're free in Christ.

Hi All,
  No scripture is of private interpretation; in other words we must interpret scripture in light of it's immediate context and also as it fits in with all of scripture.
   The immediate context is the book of Heb.  This book was written to those who were in danger of returning to the practice of the Old Covenant.  The entire book points out that the Old was a shadow of the reality to come in the New Test.  To go back would be a total rejection of Jesus Christ and his work on the cross.  
   The greater context of the NT teaches the eternal security of the believer and so how do we understand the passage in Heb.?  I believe the passage is directed toward a "mixed multitude" of those gathering as Christians.  There is a body of professing Christians and there were one's tempted to return to the Old Test. who were unsaved.  It was possible for many to see Jesus's miracles and hear his message and yet not enter the Kingdom.  There were some Hebrews here who had tasted of these experiences w/o ingesting these same truths.  
  How are we to judge an individual who once claimed to be a Christian and now rejects the New Covenant?  Are they a back slidden Christian or an unsaved person?  It is clear that the passage teaches that it is impossible to be right with God if one rejects Jesus Christ and him crucified; there is no other way of salvation.  Only God knows if the individual's denial is like Peter's or like Judas's.  We can know, if we are relying on the Gospel, that we are of those who are eternally secure in his salvation.  We can fall into great weakness and sin, but there is always recovery for the fallen Christian.  For the unsaved there is no hope of recovery if they reject Christ.  
                                 God Bless,  Mark  
   

Mark and others----

The discussion concerning Heb 6 is very interesting. I have read many many different interpretations concerning this
particular scripture. It is a difficult one for sure. I remember  reading a small book called "A lifting up of the downcast"
by a Puritan writer. I have the book at home but can't remember the author's name. But I remember clearly that he said concerning this scripture and others to remember that scripture answers scripture. One verse will say "IF you continue..." which is answered by "knowing this very thing, that he who has begun a good work in you WILL FINISH it".
So one verse seems to infer that you might not make it while another seems to answer that doubt with a resounding affirmation that God will do it. John Owen also had an interesting take on Heb. 6. He said that the very placement of those verses is to prevent a true Christian from falling. He said that the Lord has put "A hedge around us"--if we try to run through that hedge we run into thorns. When we turn from God(and truly are Christians) these verses will terrorize us and bring fear to our hearts. These verses will not bring fear to the heart of an unbeliever because he doesn't care. So, in effect what John Owen is saying is that it is impossible for a true Christian to really fall away because God has put a hedge up with verses that threaten that if you fall away you cannot repent. And no True Christian can bear the thought of not being able to return. I know that it is all conjecture---but very interesting
conjecture.       take care, Joe

Hopefully, this will be read by some of the people that are deciding whether of not to discipline George.

Psalm 51:2-4,6.

Wash me thouroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.  for I acknowledge my transgressions, and my sin is always before me.  Against You, You only, have I sinned, and done this evil in Your sight---that You may be found just when You speak, and blameless when You judge....Behold, You desire TRUTH in the inward parts, and in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom.

The road to repentance in this whole mess is really rather simple.  It doesn't take a huge committee of "leading brethren," to see this happen.  In fact, the more of a group decision it is, the less likely things will work out properly.  The only concern here is the truth.  These men, need to voluntarily acknowledge their transgressions.  To date, they have only admitted to what was proven against them by overwhelming evidence.

They also need to regain a healthy fear of the Lord,  He has seen everything, and it is plain and obvious that He, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, is judging both the man and his "ministry."  

The hidden things need to be brought to light, and when they are, it will be clearly seen, by ACTIONS that the truth is coming to light.

George and many of his servants need to VOLUNTARILY step down.  The truth is that they are disqualified as leaders. They are thouroughly compromised.  They do qualify as sinners, and as such are prime recipients for grace and forgiveness, but this they will not get as long as they insist on pretending to be something they are  not.  This is, at the minimum, what truth in the inward parts entails.

Other men, who are not involved in the actual sins, nee to step UP.  They can not  claim ignorance, because they now know the truth.  If they remain silent and let these false leaders steer them, or intimidate them, then they become sharers in other men's sins.  1Tim 5:22

So, we will know when this really happens.  Telling George he can't preach in Fulllerton, but letting him go preach in China is ludicrous.  This is a bigger lie than that which came before it, and if these leaders allow this, I recommend that the rest of you step out of the way, because God is not mocked.

Brent

Amen and amen

          Well said Brent!  and also very true!

  Joe, The Reformers were great Bible students and understood that one needed to understand the Bible in context.  The Gospel is really very simple, though it has a great depth of application to our souls': salvation by grace through faith in Him.  Salvation is a gift based relationship as is the continuing Christian life.  Understanding this simple truth gives us a key tool to interpret scripture.
  There are those who get caught up in details re. the nature of Christian gathering who can't see the forest for the trees.  Christian life and fellowship is all about Jesus Christ and his Gospel.  True "testimony to Jesus" reflects both the theology of Christ as well as the practice of a life of grace.  I may not know much, but I know the voice of the Shepherd when I hear it and eagerly follow the hope of eternal life it promises.        God Bless,  Mark C.
 

Brent,

You are in good company.  Most evangelicals are 3.5 point Calvinists.  
A good reference on this whole subject is Norman Giesler's book, "Chosen but Free".

Thomas Maddux

Mark,

Thank you for your crisp and clear interpretation of the Heb 6 passage. I concur wholeheartedly.  We must have the backdrop of the New Covenant when interpreting these passages. An adage that has helped me: We interpert the difficult passages by the clear passages. Unfortunately, in the assembly it was often the other way around. We would turn to the obscure passages to reveal the clear ones. Really, we became New Testament Jews living under the law in order to please God and hopefully "inherit the kingdom" one day. I attempted to lay out my testimony in the Life after Assy- St. Louis thread. I do admit I got to lengthy, but it was borne out of 9 years of suppressed and silenced emotions. For that I apologize, but for the doctrine I declared their, I do not. It is the New Covenant underdstanding that set me free from the bondage of the assembly.  Several posts after mine dug at me for my doctrinal position. I will use the appropriate forum next time to speak.  Thanks again Mark.  The gospel is liberating. Christ's work was complete and is finished. In that we can all stand secure without fear. VPG

JULY 27, 2004 AT 12:20 PM EST

Was cruising through the posts, and came across this title, since I always go to the first post of each new thread to see what the idea was behind it.
I dont know what date this post was first printed.
It doesnt really matter.  What was relevant then, can be still relevant today.

SOMETHING WONDERFUL IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN,
there are still fragile broken spirits, while others are strong in their faith. There are still some struggling to keep up on the road within their faith.

I think this thread is worth resurrecting.
Even just to say, keep going on the journey, no matter where you are at this moment, You can be at the starting gate, you can be at a bottom of a pit fall, or at a bottom of a mountain you have to climb, or you are seeing the finish post ahead.  Remember who you are , A child in Christ.  Remember where you are going. A home in eternity with him.

Talk to you later:

Lenore

That thread was started by Brent Tr0ckman. He hasn't posted for a long time. He is a sailor you know. I think he may have gotten lost at sea and may be drifting on a raft right now off the northern Pacific coast. When he is finally rescued he will write a book about his ordeal, and how he used his own chiropractic skills upon himself to relieve the pain, and recited all of the bones in the body over and over again to maintain his sanity.

Paraphrase: "The foot bone's conntected to the ankle bone.. , the ankle bone's connected to the leg bone.... etc.

But whether Brent posts again or not, we wish him all of the best.  Don't drink the sea water Brent!!! It will only make you thirstier!!! if you've got a nail clipper on you, you can turn it into a hook and maybe catch a bonito or a mackerel for sustenance. We look forward to hearing from you again.

take care, Joe