AssemblyBoard

Hi out there.  I have open up to people on the bulletin board about my struggles after departing from the Assembly.  These struggles incluse Post Traumatic Stress Disoarder and Major Depression.  Does anyone else have a similar struggle?

I haven't been to a pyscologist, so I wouldn't know.  I don't think psycologists know what they're talking about (don't they have a higher rate of suicide than the rest of the populace?)
No you are no alone.  It hasn't been easy for me, and I doubt for any of us.  What are the symptoms of PTSD and MD?  

Hello out there,

I just wanted to apologize if I am offending anyone by being open about my struggles with post-Assembly life.  I just need someone to talk to, and maybe it would be better if I just sent personal messages.  Again, if I have offended you, please forgive me...

Eulaha,
When I left, the pastor at the small church I attended, along with an old elder who knew George and Betty when they were just out of college, listened to me vent my feelings on many occasions.  You probably need something like that as well.  
I would start with a pastor, and seek professional help if they feel you need it.
Don't be afraid or ashamed to do this Eulala, everything valuable is obtained by effort, (apart from God's grace).
The assemby and other groups like it crush and wound people, and healing can be speeded by good physicians of the soul.
Don't be afraid to speak openly.  There are many here who literally "feel your pain".  
May God bless you richly,
Tom Maddux

Dear Eulaha,

You are by no means alone.  And you have not offended me, for one.  I'm sure many would say the same.  What John Malone has written to help you is sound advise.  He has been a friend of mine for 25 years, and I have battled the things you are describing even longer than that.  He and others ( especially my husband ) have done right by me.  They have supported my attempts to get through these times with patience and the truth of the Word of God.  Therefore I have avoided many snares and  instead discovered, in my weakness, that God is very kind and His salvation extends even to this.  It is very difficult, but here is where I really began to know my Savior.  He alone is completely sufficient even for this.  


Maureen Mancuso

Dear Eulaha,
  You have not offended me at all by bringing up your needs on the BB.  I have been praying for you and hope that you will find comfort through the Lord's help in your life.
  Please read my post in "Wounded Pilgrims" as I mention one of your post's and some of the controversy surrounding it.  It has been very helpful to think about these things and has cleared up some confusion I had re. the subject of emotional problems and finding healing for them.
  Many have written me privately re. the great help this topic has been for them and their desire to keep the discussion going.  Since it is a BB, and many different opinions are shared, there will be those who do not see the value of such discussion.  I would caution sharing too many intimate details as you can become vulnerable to more wounding from insensitive individuals.
                                    God Bless,  Mark

Hello Eulaha,

I can very much relate to your struggles.  I too had  PTSD and depression.  It will get better, Eulaha, even if just through process of time, but there are things you can do to help the process.  I think for me recovery has been a two-pronged process.  The biggest part of it has come about as I increasingly understand and believe what God has done for me in Christ--He sees me as in union with His beloved Son, and loves me and cares for me just as He does His Son.  There are so many facets to this, and how it has become more real to me, maybe I can share in more detail later.  

At first, I could only read the Gospels and the Old Testament, but there are lots of precious promises there that helped me.  (I had to read paraphrased versions to get around GG's voice--the J. B. Phillips New Testament, and The Living Bible.)  One of the first passages that I found and clung to was Ps. 23, esp. v.2  , "He lets me rest...."  I was totally burnt out on every level, and He so graciously allowed me to just rest in Him.  

This related to going to church, too.  I just wasn't up to much.  I found that the Lord's Supper was what meant the most to me, it so clearly speaks of the good news of the Gospel, and it was such a blessing to just receive it as God's gift, even if I had to sit in the back row and cry, and leave right at the end.

Reading Christian books has been very helpful.   The works of C. S. Lewis, and other  apologists like Lee Strobel, "The Case For Christ"-- works that helped me grasp the major truths of Christianity, not books that wanted to spur me on in my Christian life. I wasn't ready for any more of that.  (The odd thing is, though, the more you see of what God has done for us, the more you want to serve Him.)
     
The other facet has to do with ferreting out what are the buried toxic beliefs I have.  This is where counseling has been helpful to me.  We went to Wellspring, which gave me tools to begin the process, and since  then I have found a Christian counselor who uses the same tools to help me in the ongoing process of identifying those false beliefs (which come out in nightmares, among other things). I can still get triggered by an intense situation, but I can also get over it now.  For instance, reading the whole topic of "Putting J. Malone in His Place" got to me for about a day--it triggered the brain chemistry (old victim beliefs are tenacious).

It is kind of hard to talk about this on a post.  I seem to be just talking all about myself, and yet I don't want to fall into my weakness of telling other people what I think they ought to know or do.  Anyway, I hope maybe some of this is helpful for you, Eulaha. In Christ, God is blessing you and keeping you, and making His face smile upon you, and being gracious unto You.

Margaret



 

 

Hi Margaret,

I also went to Wellspring and received some much-needed counsel and rest.

Margaret,
An excellent post.   :)
Tom

Thank you Margaret! :)
  Your post really was helpful to me.  I'm trying to understand the whole issue of learning to think the way God wants us to vs. the way we were taught in the Assembly.  There has been a bit of a controversy re. the part counselling plays in such a recovery process and your post shows exactly how counselling can help in our Christian lives.
  No doubt, we should be very careful in our pursuit of a counsellor, as there are those who do not share our Christian faith, and would guide us into trusting ourselves vs. faith in God.  Your post shows how your faith has grown by using help from those who find the soul's cure is really God's work and is achieved by recognition of the grace of God.
  I will post a thought at the Wounded Pilgrims thread and would like to hear what you think about it.  I have been gone all week and trying to keep up with the conversation here is difficult, but I sure have fun trying.
                                God Bless,  Mark C.

Hello friends,

  As to the controversy surrounding counselors, I just wanted to comment that psychology has come a long way since Freud. Freud's theories are untestable and unscientific. Modern Cognitive Behavioral psychology is based upon scientific observation, not thought-up theories. If you're going to say psychologists don't know what they're talking about, you might as well say chemists don't know what they're talking about either.
  I, for one, purposely went to a counselor who is not a fundamental Christian. Instead, I went to someone who isn't set on any one belief. This was because I wanted a counselor who would help me figure out what was going on in my head, not steer me toward a pre-conceived idea of what is righteous. I think that if we keep psychology in perspective, as a mental/scientific rather than spiritual discipline, we can gain a lot from its insights. We just need to take their language, "Trust in yourself," and translate it into our own belief system, "Trust that God has made you adequate for your life."

Heather

Hi Heather! :)
   I think we have a difference of opinion here, and that is okay!  I am not a psychologist, nor have I gone past one college course of same.  Whatever my opinion, you were helped and you didn't find a hindrance to your faith from your counseling, and that is great.
  Unfortunately, not all psyche. MD's use the cognitive approach that you mention.  Many use a variation of Freud's old psychotherapy that treats from a worldview that Christian faith is a problem.  Dave Hunt's book on the subject does a good job of showing the development of psychology to the present.
   It is also true, in my opinion, that psychology and chemistry are not equally objective.  I would say a better comparison would be engineering and cosmology.  In the study of the Universe we are dealing with what we can't see or measure easily.  In engineering we are dealing with what we can ascertain via our senses.  Our understanding of cosmology has gone through great changes as we look deeper into the infinite construction of the universe.
   God has place eternity in our hearts' and it is a depth that only God can plummet.
   Why, for instance, does one person, who grows up as a crack baby in the ghetto, grow up to be a responsible achiever and another person ends up in prison on death row?  Same circumstances, yet opposite responses.
   Why does one Assembly member commit suicide due to their failure, and other's see it as a lesson from God and learn to walk in grace?
   Why do some present Assembly Leaders repent for their involvement and others continue on in darkness?
   The soul is the special provence of the Divine and to try solve the above questions using the science of cognitive therapies is the same as searching the universe with binoculars.
   To try and put a Christian label on what the counselor says is similar to going to an AA meeting.  They acknowledge a "Higher Power" but don't lead individuals into faith in Christ.  The lack of clarity can lead down the wrong path and ultimately not address the real need of the person.  Of course my faith assumes that Christ is the way,truth, and the life; but in the area of the soul this assumption is crucial to finding help.  If I need a prescription from my pharmicist my faith will not assist his science, however there are psyche MD's who view my faith as my chief problem and will actively seek to destroy it.
   I know personally of such examples as I describe here and as such still advise those seeking help to go to places like WellSpring.           God Bless,  Mark

Dear Mark,

  I think we can agree on one thing: Different counselors will use different approaches. There are good ones, and there are bad ones. You need to be careful in selecting a counselor. I'm sure there are counselors out there who have a problem with faith or Jesus, but I think you'd find the majority supportive of faith. They support faith because their research shows that faith has a healing affect in people's lives.
  As far as the questions you brought up, no, psychology and science won't give you adequate answers, though they could certainly give you statistics and information to help you approach some of them. To get information, you have to ask appropriate questions, regardless of which discipline you are consulting. The Bible won't tell me how to fix a car, and psychology won't tell me how to get to heaven. Examples of appropriate questions for psychology would be, "Do these nightmares mean I'm going crazy?" "Why do I feel so numb?" "Is it unhealthy to want to be alone sometimes?" Psychology won't solve a sin problem, but it will solve a mental problem.
  Besides, I think that the main benefit of psychology is not in giving you information but in listening to you without judging you. For example, when I heard Brother George being boastful, I used to write it off as me thinking evil. If I were to mention to counsellors that I thought Brother George was being boastful, they wouldn't judge that as "thinking evil." They'd say, "Tell me more about that." If I'd said to myself, "Tell me more about that," in my Assembly years, I'm sure I wouldn't have been so blind. I think that counselors can help us to listen better to what we're feeling or thinking, and sometimes, I believe, those thoughts or feelings are God telling us something. (Of course, deciding what God is telling you is the realm of religion, not psychology.)
  I don't think there's anything wrong with incorporating psychology into my Christian world view, as long as it takes second place to God's Word. Even Paul did something similar in Acts 17:28, "as even some of your [the Greeks'] own poets have said, . . . ." Unbelievers may express their insights differently and veer off into error (contradiction of the Bible) at times, but that doesn't mean they know nothing of God, life or reality.
  As to AA, I think it's Christian snobbery to talk down about it. AA may not know Jesus, but they do know alcoholics better than anyone else. God didn't reveal himself in the Bible all at once. It wasn't until Moses that He even gave His name, so what is wrong with moving from a belief in a vague "higher power" to a more focused view of God? For many people in AA, believing in any higher power is a big step. It's impossible to move closer to God if you don't believe a God exists. True, people may get sidetracked in their journey toward God, but we all run that risk in our spiritual walks. I have faith that God corrects, preserves, forgives and restores those whose hearts He's drawing. We don't have to stay in a Christian bunker in order to know the truth about the one true God.
  To fully address their problems, alcoholics should go to AA (experts on alcoholism) on Tuesday and church (community of faith) on Sunday. Their daily lives should include BOTH skills learned in AA and the faith in Jesus which is revealed to the heart by the Holy Spirit. The only place where AA or psychology would be out of line is in contradicting a higher authority, the Bible, but they usually don't. They just stop where their expertise ends and leave issues of spirituality to the individual and his or her personal relationship with God. If a psychologist or other organization tries to step outside their limitations, that is the time for the discerning Christian to withdraw.

  Heather

Hi Heather!
  You offer very clear and thoughtful opinions and I hope you will continue to make a contribution on the BB.
   Your reply to my post did give me a pause in my thinking and I thank you for that.  As most Exassembly folks, I am still in the process of reevaluating how I view things.
   I certainly am not an expert in how psychology is practiced as I have never even visited a psyche MD., though I'm very cognizant of the fact that emotional health is a very important aspect of a healthy Christian life.  It seems to me that the Bible is clear that he wants us to consider our brethren's emotional well being as he commands us to "weep with those that weep" and to "comfort one another in the love of Christ".
    I am not of the crowd that thinks that AA is of the Devil or that Psyche. is demonic, but I also think it is wrong to divide issues of faith from healing of damaged emotions.  If AA helps alcoholics to deal with a bad habit that is great, but could that become the new "religion" of the addict?  This can become a huge barrier, rather than an awakening that will lead to a true understanding of the Gospel.
   Maybe the actual practice of Psyche. MD's is different from the official stand of the organizational leaders.  I know the Calif. Organization (name?) has published papers that support Homosexuality and certain kinds of pedophilia as being healthy.  Dave Hunt wrote a book about Pyschology and some of the therapies that are utilized which have an unhealthy mix of truly demonic influence.
  How have you gained your understanding of the present Psyche. practice?  Are you in the field?
   I thank you again for your insight.  God Bless,  Mark

Dear Mark,

  I'm not a counselor. My knowledge of psychology is based on books I've read, my own experience, conversations with friends, psych classes, and the fact that my step-mom is a counselor.
  I was grateful for your kindness in your last post. I hope my irritation hasn't come through in my posts on this. I've done my best not to cross the line between passion and anger. I can see now that you are truly willing to dialogue, so I don't feel upset at all anymore. Instead, I feel gratitude for being heard. Thank you.
  I have a strong emotional reaction when I hear Christians speaking ill of psychology because I have seen too many people go without needed help. Mark, I used to have a perspective very similar to yours, but my mind was changed in a dramatic way. I'll share the story with you.
  A very withdrawn sister started coming out to our campus Bible Studies. She was studying psychology, and we all knew she had a long history of going for therapy. One of the brothers and I were a sort of team to disciple her/fellowship with her. He told me about conversations where he tried to convince her that Jesus rather than psychology was the answer. On my end, this sister told me that she was considering taking antidepressant drugs. I responded by discouraging her from taking them. My underlying motivation was my belief that Jesus could lift her depression as He healed her life and that He didn't need help.
  A few weeks later, I had a rude awakening. This sister called me from the emergency room. It turns out that she was having terrible flashbacks. I spent hours with her in the emergency room. I also ended up taking her home with me. She wasn't ready to be alone. The loving woman from Lutheran Social Services told me that the most important thing I could do was to encourage her to take her medicine--she wouldn't get better without it--and to call her counselor to make sure she got in as soon as possible. I realized that I had been very blind in my spiritual pride. I knew the Bible, but I definitely didn't know how to deal with mental illness. I knew then that this dear sister would need help from someone who knew what they were doing, someone schooled in psychology.
  Pastors don't know mental illness. That's not what they go to school for. They go to school to learn the Bible. Psychologists go to school to learn about mental illness. My friend from the campus isn't the only one who's been discouraged from getting needed help. :( I think it's important for Christians to stop doing this to people!
  I want to clarify about dividing up people's problems. I can see how you would think that I was being overly "boxy" in my statements. It did sound that way, but it wasn't what I meant.
  To explain what I'm saying more clearly, I want to backtrack a bit and discuss the body vs. spirit issue. It's pretty typical in our culture to place the physical on the level of the body and the nonphysical in the spiritual realm. I believe this leads to errors. A New Ager may feel good and describe that as a "spiritual experience," when in fact it was only an emotional high. On the other hand, a Christian may place all mental issues in the realm of sin and repentance--the spiritual realm--and miss the soul level. The Bible teaches that we are three-part beings: body, soul, and spirit. A nonphysical issue is not necessarily a primarily spiritual issue.
  I believe that the best way to deal with any issue in your life is on all three levels. I am definitely NOT saying you should deal with an issue on only a psychological/soul level. I AM saying that the psychological level can't be neglected.
  I have fibromyalgia, and I have been to a variety of specialists to help me. A few of them include:

A personal trainer--physical level

God (praying for healing/growth through this)--spiritual level

A counselor (dealing with the emotional burden of disability)--psychological level

  I never regarded my personal trainer as the answer to my illness, but I knew she had a vital piece to contribute. It's the same with my counselor. And when it comes to God, well, God certainly can do miracles, but His usual way is to stay within the laws of nature He's set up and ask me to get the mundane, down to earth, sometimes imperfect treatment health care professionals provide me. He provides me with the insight to grow through my experience; the healthcare establishment does my doctoring.
  To respond to AA, AA has no intention of turning itself into a "religion." I believe the risks of not going are far greater than the risks in going. Of all the people I know who've gone to twelve step groups, none have moved away from God because of it, though one ended up eventually getting saved and baptized due to being able to feel safe with her "higher power." Please don't discourage one of God's precious children from getting the help he or she desperately needs! Pastors are not trained to teach alcoholics the skills they need to cope with their addictions. Pastors are trained to communicate the love and truth of God. I believe an alcoholic would get maximum benefit from an integrated program, getting help in the physical, mental and spiritual levels.
Ex.:

physical level--running to elevate mood and burn off stress, an alternative to drinking

mental level--AA, counseling to learn, for example, how to communicate effectively with family members rather than drowning pain over bad relationships in the bottle

spiritual level--repentance, prayer for strength to do the things learned in the lower levels, experiencing God's love and acceptance and learning to accept him/herself as God does rather than hiding in the bottle and making things worse

  I'm not suggesting that any of these things be done in a vacuum. The idea is to address all aspects of the problem rather than assuming that the primary problem is always spiritual.

  As to Dave Hunt, I don't know anything about him, but it sounds like he is a debunker. Psychology has had some bad things happen under its auspices. So has the church. The crusades? Our dear abused sisters? If you want to get rid of something, emphasize the negative. If you were from China and read a critique of the Christianity, you might get turned off to Christianity too. We had some pretty gnarly things in our Assembly "official doctrine."
  Lastly, I'd like to comment on homosexuality. It's true that the majority of counselors will not condemn homosexuality. This is because homosexuality is a moral issue, not a mental issue. Remember, I said that an ethical counselor will leave a person's relationship with God to the individual. In many cases, that means supporting the client's desire to pursue Christianity. In this case, that means neither encouraging nor discouraging homosexuality. Morality is the realm of religion, not psychology. I'm sure that if you felt this laissez-faire attitude toward homosexuality disqualified a counselor, you could also find one who considers homosexuality a problem. That'd just be a question to ask before you started therapy.

  Thanks again for your last post and for having this conversation with me. It's a special person who pauses and listens, then responds. Most people already have their response before they listen. Like you, I also do my best to listen.

  God bless,
  Heather

Hi Heather :)
  Thank you so much for your thoughtful response.  I was thinking that your post was "boxy" and I now understand better what you were getting at.
  I certainly do not disparage counseling, but am very concerned about the bias of the counsellor as I don't believe humans can really achieve neutrality; their world view will affect their advice.
  Seminary instruction has changed a great deal and counseling enters into a major part of their training now.  I have read books by Pastors regarding how to combine theology with counseling, and these authors understand their limitations.  This kind of counseling doesn't treat deep pathologies, but more day to day kind of emotional stress.
  I think Brian Steele could bring some helpful insight into this discussion as he went to "Wellspring", which is a treatment center run by Christians who have been in cults/abusive churches.
  Have you read the book, "The Subtle Power Of Spiritual Abuse"?  It is written by a psyche. MD and a Pastor and it is very interesting to follow their interaction.
   Terms used in Psyche. can find interesting parallels in Biblical phrases.  An example would be denial (not just a river in Egypt ;)) and the Biblical term lying.  I think that moral issues and emotional issues are inseparable when dealing with certain problems.
  Obviously, treating bed wetting, etc. is not a moral issue; however marriage counselling would have to address morals.  I know of one bro. who went to a psyche. and was told his problem was guilt and he needed to just feel free to violate his conscience and do something "sinful".  He was encouraged to "find a girl", and offered a cigarette by the counsellor; this was supposed to be treatment!
   I don't think the Dave Hunt book was just negative as he was looking at the facts of the evolution of Psyche. science.  I would agree making sweeping generalizations from his book is in error, but dismissing all of his concerns as simply an effort to demonize all Psyche. is probably wrong as well.
   Thanks for helping me think through these things and I'm sure others are finding the topic helpful as well.  Please check out my post in "Wounded Pilgrims" thread as it has some bearing on our discussion on emotional health.
                                       God Bless,  Mark  

Mark,

  It seems to me that we've pretty much reached a point of resolution here--or at least agreeing to disagree slightly.  ;) I would sum up my opinion as follows:

Do not discourage Christians from getting needed help. If someone wants to see a counselor, we should support them in finding an ethical counselor. The person knows whether or not he or she needs counseling. We can't judge that from the outside. Too many Christians were denied help in the Assembly, such as when Susan McCarthy commented that married couples were denied marital counseling and forced to try to figure things out for themselves, resulting in continued bloody faces for the wives--or Eulaha, who was prevented from looking more deeply into her emotional struggles by the anti-psychology teaching (see MY STORY by Eulaha--you may have to email her for a copy).

If you choose to consult a psychiatrist, psychologist, mental health counselor, or social worker, ASK about their views first. As a Christian, you may want to save yourself some trouble and just go to a Christian counselor to begin with, or you may prefer the freedom of a counselor trained in secular methods. Sounds like your friend ended up with a lousy counselor--he should've checked 'em out first.

I'm still in the midst of reading "Spiritual Abuse." Here's a quote from the book:
"You were asked to leave your church for sexually molesting a teenager. Have you gotten counseling?"
"Yes," was the reply. "I've been seeing someone for several months."
"Do they know how to address sexual issues?"
"Oh yes. They've had quite a bit of training."
"Then this person is a counselor?"
"You mean a REAL counselor?"
"Yes. Are they a counselor trained in sexual issues?"
"Well no, not really--it's a pastor. But he's read a lot of books. . . ."  :-[

Have a good day!

Heather

Hi again Heather!
  Yes, I would agree with your summation of our conversation here.  Finding a good counselor may be as difficult as finding a good church for some, but possibly I have reacted too strongly to the past negative experiences I mentioned. (I also have listened to Dr. Laura, on occasion, on the radio and she can really bring out some negative things happening in the world of psychology. )
  Great quote from the book "Spiritual Abuse"!  There are certainly some pastors to avoid in counseling as well!  I had several negative "pastor" experiences when I first left.  One pastor showed up at my house unannouned to "give me "the word" because he thought I had just come out of a cult and needed to be saved!  He wouldn't listen to anything I had to say. (some of my experiences re. the first couple of years I was out of the Assm. are related in the 2nd Enroth book of abuse called, "Recovering From Churches That Abuse."  I'm in the chapt. on the Assembly).
   This is why I believe in psychological or theological counseling for Assembly folks the counselor needs to know how to deal with excultists.  Obviously, I'm talking about recovery issues from the group.  Other deeper pathologies that are present may need other treatment, but there's no one that knows an Assemblyite like one who has been there.
   It seems to me that as fellow Christians we can minister to one another.  As I mentioned before, the Bible commands us to "weep with one another", comfort one another, etc."   I'm not suggesting we take the place of trained professionals, but the place of a fellow wounded pilgrim.
 I know that group therapy has been used successfully in helping certain problems (AA) and I think the BB can kind of fill that role.  We are all recovering Assemblites and that gives us the ability to understand and feel compassion for those struggling with similar issues.
  When I first left I longed for such companionship.  I tried to talk to other Christians about my Assembly experience and some thought I was nuts!  Others had no clue what I was talking about.  Fortunately, there were a few Bros. who left before I did who came out to me and helped me.
   I post here with the intention of trying to help Christians who have been hurt in the Assembly.  I also post here because I find it good therapy for myself as I try to think through these issues.
                                    God Bless,  Mark  

THIS IS "GUEST" TOM MADDUX

Heather,

"continued bloody faces for the wives".

Say What???   What is this about?

Tom M.

Mark,

  YOU were "Maybe Next Year We'll Get a Tree"!! Wow. You're a celebrity.  8) I agree with you about finding people to talk to. Most Christians and people in general have NO IDEA what I'm talking about. They can't even fathom it. I'm really grateful for this BB and for the sister here who left before I did and has gone out to me.
  Tom, the "bloody faces" remark was a reference to gross domestic abuse going untreated. I'm sorry if this was overly graphic. I also know that wives were usually hit where their clothing would cover it, not in the face. "Bloody face" just seemed like a good metaphor for domestic violence. I've gotten so much denial when I've tried to state things euphemistically in the past, that I've developed the habit of being very direct  >:(  in the context of the Assembly.  I'm having to relearn when/how to be gentle after all the rough and tumble.  ;D I certainly did not intend to offend.

  Heather

Heather,
  I think my celebrity in this instance is probably more infamy than famous.  It is rather embarassing to admit to a bunch of personal problems like that.
  Rudy,
   Chill out a little bit on the log on thing!  Tom is having problems with getting the board to recognize him.  He clearly identifies himself and I can vouch for him as the real Tom Maddox.
    I agree with Heather that straight forward communication is necessary when discussing the Assembly.  There is so much Orwellian speech that went on there the truth can sound a bit blunt at times.  Also, trying to talk via our computers always makes for some miscommunication.  Think back at how we missed Al's sarcasm and took him serioius.
                        God Bless,  Mark

Whoa...

  I never intended to joke about this stuff. I'm sorry I ever used that phrase. First it's too blunt, then it's too flippant.  :-\
  Rudy, if you're referring to my phrase, "rough and tumble" followed by a  ;D, that was a reference to the arguments I had when I tried to discuss this stuff with Assembly members while I was still in. If you're referring to my comment about women being attacked, I was serious. By using the word, "blood," I was trying to emphasize the seriousness of the problem--that without intervention women would continue to be beaten and possibly killed. I'll try to be more careful with my figurative language in the future.  :(

Heather

Rudy,
  I'm sorry but I must have missed a lot here.  My reference to the "log-on" thing refered to what you had to say to Tom re. not identifying himself.  My chill out suggestion was in regard to that.
   Re. the blood issue I'm totally confused and have no idea what you're talking about.  I think we're all opposed to anybody spilling blood here and take the issue of abuse very seriously.
   My intention was to make love not war.      
                      A former Hippie,  Mark

mark is a global moderator, which means when he tells you to chill out, you should listen. mark is an extremely reasonable and easy-going guy.

i have deleted several of rudy's recent posts that were inappropriate, harassing, and even threatening. because he went so far over the line, i am also suspending his account temporarily. sorry rudy, but i made it clear that such posts are not welcome here, and i meant it.

Hey, what happened to Rudy?

You know what. He doesn't have any documentation of any suspension.

This is so assembly. Talk behind someone's back. Smile when you see
him face to face and say, 'there's no problem brother'.

Mark,

  I think it's wonderful that you shared your story with Enroth for Recovering from Churches that Abuse. It was courageous and humble of you to talk about those issues. A lot of people, including me, have undoubtedly gained a greater understanding of their situation and what to do thanks to your honesty. Did you know that there was a rumor that the chapter on the Assembly in Enroth's first book was compiled from the observations of a "peeping Tom" at Tim and Ginger's? I didn't read it for years, believing it was the fabrications of a peeping Tom! What a surprise to discover it was actually the story of a brother who'd been in the Assembly for 11 years!  :o

Heather

Hey Eulaha,

Remember one thing: there is no shame to what you were involved with. You were a little sheep who just wanted Christ and someone else used you to their advantage. One of the things that has helped me most is by being involved with other people. The people that you love, let them in. We hold onto our "secrets'' like they are so terrible. Go out with your girlfriends. Girlfriends have secrets and sharing them is the worst and best of any relationship. Be involved with your life.

I remember when I first came out of the SLO assembly, what do you tell people when they ask where/which church have you come from? Once I started saying that I had been part of a christian cult there was a great weight lifted from me. I identified the problem. It wasn't with me.  Yes, I let it happen because I was naive and young. The SLO assembly was my home away from home (sound like a hook?). They dangled a carrot in your face and you went for it, there is no shame to that! YOU ARE NOT TO BLAME. Let yourself off the hook. I don't know much about PTSD but I do know that the more you try and hide it, it will just come up and bite you in the behind. Share, tell, shout, scream, cry.  You have a right to your emotions.

Heide

Here is a local artist who really has a heart for God.

http://www.davidmacd.com/

This is a touching story of the first hand experience he had with the issue of abortion.

http://www.davidmacd.com/web_pages/pro-life.htm

Any who have any doubts. YOU are precious in God's sight. Every one of you. Yes every one of you.

http://www.davidmacd.com/lyrics/let_them_live.htm

For those who want to hear a different Christian Station the VERY FIRST FULL POWER CHRISTIAN STATION in Canada here is the link. You can listen online if you have a current RealAudio player.

www.CHRI.ca
Christian Radio

Life 100.3 Radio Station
 
Hugh  :D

MAY 15TH: 2:21 AM est

ALONE WITH MY EMOTIONAL STRUGGLES:

We can all say , NO> and we can all say YES>
Struggling with emotions is a very personal, individual thing.  But getting the support from God, God's people, friends, family, community, church, etc.
Then struggling with your emotions is not alone job.

Right now , I am battling a fight.
A fight with my clinical depression  emotions , that are out of control, and my spirit trying to keep the faith in the promises of God.

Unless you have been through this, and can empathize, then it is only sympathy, that other can give.
Quiet often in this type of battle, we can make our selves alone, too. Because we become so chamelon like.
Building walls of protection, that no one else can climb.
Some times not even letting God in.
God is knocking at the door, waiting on us to let him in to help. But we say, OH NO, you can wait on the porch, or front stoop, or just in vestibule.

God sits down and waits until we are ready to let him in. If we can only let him in to the vestibule. He meet us there, he waits, waits, waits.

Because our emotions, gives us a rollercoaster ride in such a split second.  We want to hide in our own little corner, then we want to dump everything out on people, but only what we really want to share.

YOU KNOW SOMETHING:
SAY HI/HOW ARE YOU/FINE/YOU/
Then go on the merry way.
This is the biggest greetings that is absolutely a lie.Are we really interested in how the other is feeling,

WHAT IF THEY WANT TO SAY NO CAN I SHARE !

THIS HAPPENED TO ME IN CHURCH. i started talking about how rotten i was feeling, and I found out that
 I was talking to the plant arrangement on the table in the vestibule of the church. The person who ask HOW ARE YOU, was already in the sanctuary, sitting down.

It is so habitual.
So if you are in a depression state. a battle maybe for your life. etc. ::)

This taught me a good lesson. I take that extra minute to wait, to see if they say something beyond I am fine yourself.
It also made me hestitant about saying something besides I am fine.
Emotional struggles do not have to be alone.
But quite often it is , whether it is by choice or by someone elses choices.
We can tell our hearts, we can say all the platitudes, or others can say all the platitudes to in affect.
You can rise above. I am being positive about this last sentence. The well meaning friends like poor patient Job.
The Bible had a nother example of someone DEPRESSION and in an emotional struggle.
ELIJAH.
When Elijah, became depressed after stressful time, no rain for three years, Queen Jezebel putting a death sentence bounty on his head, challenge of the gods vs God in the altar. Then praying for it to rain.
Elijah became depressed, phyically exhausted, and emotionally struggling.
How did Elijah cope: SLEEP AND FOOD.
1 KINGS 19:4-8
SLEEP , ANGELS BROUGHT HIM FOOD, AND WENT TO SEEK GOD, AFTER BEING PHYICALLY ENERGIZE AGAIN, TO SEEK HEALING FOR HIS BATTERED EMOTIONAL AND SPIRITUAL DAMAGE, THAT HAS OCCURRED.

THE EVENTS OF THIS IS IN 1 KINGS:CHAPTERS: 17, 18,19,

Even Elijah was not alone in his emotional struggles, God took care of his immediate needs, which is
REST AND NOURISHMENT. To aide Elijah the journey to seek God for some spiritual healing.

Maybe I am not making much sense.
So in summary:
Emotional struggles is an individual thing, with individual needs, individual copying skills .
but we should not be alone in our recovery process.
GOD HAS GIVEN US EXAMPLES OF VERY PRACTICAL WAYS, to help and be helped.

THANK YOU FOR READING THIS.

     Lenore's post (below) is packed with things to consider, and well worth a second and third reading.  I wish to comment on only a couple of these thoughts:


     From our end, our perspective, depression can seem an awesome and powerful foe.  There is no time when we are more vulnerable than when we are emotionally depressed--discouragement and despair seem like sure-fire victors.

     But the emotions that seem "out of control," are only so to us-- never to God.  There is no human condition that is beyond His control.  We must learn to know, accept and praise Him for that.  He has overcome the source of our tribulation in the world.

     The scriptural instruction to keep the faith is just that.  We are not told to win, gain or conjure up the faith.  It is the faith once delivered unto the saints, and it was the Spirit of the Living God Who delivered that faith to us-- placed it within our grasp.  We don't have to come up with the faith, but just to cling to it.




     "We become so chameleon like" is an interesting observation.  Fallen human nature reeks of a justly deserved sense of guilt and, accompanying that guilt, a dire fear of vulnerability.  Hence, to avoid exposure as the sinners we are, we seek to "fit in" with whoever or whatever we are exposed to.  But this fitting in is a facade, a false front by which we project the image of likemindedness with those we fear, while at the same time isolating ourselves from discovery so that none may behold who and what we believe ourselves to be, even to the point of keeping God Himself at bay.

     In such a state we deceive ourselves, imagining we are kept safe within our projected illusion when, in fact, God is not in the least convinced of our ruse, and chances are that nobody else really cares or, if they do, they see right through it.  It is only ourseves who accept the delusion.

     The crux of the problem is that we are focused on our self-perceptions, when we need to be seeing ourselves as God sees us.  We interpret our experiences by the evidence of our emotions; our fears and anxieties, while God sees us on the far side of Calvary, post-redemption, cleansed and reborn, perfected in Christ Jesus.  As we learn to view ourselves through God's eyes, we begin to grow beyond the subjectivity to our feelings and emotions, and as we grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ, we no longer feel a need to keep others out, but desire to let them in, that they too may be partakers of the grace that has delivered us.  

     Then the only chameleonlike aspect of us is our being conformed into the image of our Redeemer.

This is something that I have found personally in dealing with depression.  I would like to make this disclaimer:  I know there are various types and degrees of depression, so I am not suggesting that this is the solution in every case.  Nor am I suggesting it is the full solution in every case.

At one time, I used to think that if I would just get right thoughts about Christ into my head, everything would be OK.  While right thoughts about God are indeed important, it is not everything.

Example:  Last Friday I was at a particularly low point in my emotional cycle.  I was depressed, discouraged, angry, and irritable.  If provoked, I could have easily punched a hole in the wall, screamed at my kids, or gone out and committed sin because I really didn't care about anything.  I was overwhelmed at all the things I had to do this weekend.  All the world's problems felt like my personal problems.  This was not merely being bummed, it was genuine, fatalistic, depression.

My wife suggested (insisted) that I go to the gym and exercise which I didn't have time for "because of all the things I have to do but couldn't do because of my state of mind".  I listened to my wife and went.   After an hour of vigorous exercise (a good hour of running on the treadmill, weights, etc.) the transformation in my attitude was dramatic.  I was happy, no longer worried about the weekend, and felt I could lay any concern I had before the Lord.  The truth was that I got to this sorry state because I hadn't exercised in over two weeks.  When I start feeling overwhelmed, I turn to sugar to cheer me up - something that makes things worse.

This had nothing to do with doctrine, or what I thought about Christ or any theological question.  It is a simple principle:  if I don't take care of myself physically, I won't be able to effectively do anything else.

For me, this means:  Cardivascular exercise at least four times a week, cut back on the sugar, get good sleep every night, eat as healthy as reasonable (avoid excesses).

The truism, "take care of yourself first" almost sounds heritical from our years in the Assembly.  What?  I thought it is better to "burn out than rust out".  Frankly, I would rather not do either.   The truth is, unless you take care of yourself first, you are going to be unable to effectively help others.  It is amazing the health problems that consistant, vigorous exercise (jogging, swift walking, cycling, swimming, hiking, weights, gardening, etc.) can help with.

Again, I am not saying this addresses every aspect of depression  but I personally found it to be incredibly helpful to make personal "temple maintenance" a priority.

     Amen, Brother!  This is a heavy-duty message, and "Temple Maintenance" is a term to remember.

     For those who may not know, here is a new word to add to your spiritual glossary:  Endorphins  are a God-given internal component of our bodies, activated by physical exercise, which act to improve our moods and overall emotional dispositions.  Endorphins:  smaller than hobbits; more powerful than Gandalf.  God installed them-- we need to use 'em.

     Thanks, Dave, for a good word in season.

al

P.S.--  If you are a stranger to exercise, as I once was, do not be intimidared by it (as I once was).  You don't have to become an allstar athlete overnight.  Start out with a ten-minute walk.  It need not even be strenuous-- just start!  If you have health problems, consult your physician.  (If a trip to your doctor's office is more exercise than you've been getting, make an appointment today).  
     This is serious business.  Your body IS the temple of God's Holy Spirit.  Don't allow it to become defiled with toxins that need to be sweated out.  If you don't like this idea, ask the Lord about it.  He won't hand you a scorpion or a rock.
     As Dave pointed out, exercise isn't the cure for all ills, but I'll add that unless your doctor forbids it, it can't do any harm & you may find yourself enjoying it! ;)

Yeah.  It took at least two weeks for Al to become an allstar athlete.   ;D

This is a good point.  One mistake I made was overexercising.  I then began to dread the workout and would drop off.  It took me a while to find balance - a routine that adequately challenged me but didn't overdo things.

So true, even walking helps. Although, SOmetime I have to walk about one hour, because I think when I walk, and can build up a pretty good head of steam.
By the time I am at the other end of the town. go into Tim's for  bathroom break and a coffee, by then I can walk home in a more calmer state of mind.

There is also another God give body releaser of depression:

It's called crying:

Crying releases the hormones from the body that can cause depression.

Laughter is also a God given emotion that can release stresses that add to the depressional state.

Remember depression is a physical state, a health issue, where there is a chemical imbalance within the brain.
I agree with Dave, no sleep, overeating, little exercise, and not enough positive venting, can cause even the most practicing faithful Christian  to throw all the teachings out the window.

I am trying to ingest in to my spirit the verse in Luke that Jesus was tempted in all area, that includes emotional areas, it has to include depressional emotions.  Jesus overcame within his physical earthly body. But even then when you are in the battle, sometimes that is not much comfort.

Call it human weakness, human stubborness, human rebelliousness, depression can be caused by human rejections that the pendulum swings to human rebelliousness when we try swing to the righteousness with God.

Rejection               the cross                  Rebelliousness
                            RIGHTEOUSNESS

Depression is something that needs to brought into the light and to the light.
Depression is an individual thing, but the battle cannot be alone battle. It is too hard to deal with alone.
Depression for me is like a long black tunnel, You may see a glimmer of light at the end. The hope .
But it is still a long tunnel that has to be navigated.
With out God carrying me part way, sometimes it becomes impossible to continue toward that light.
Or sometimes it is a bottomless pit, dark, alone, no where to go but up, but the slopes are edgy, steep and slippery, with many snares , thorns in the way to climb back out. An impossible task, for someone in the depressional state, to climb out alone.
It is when , the person in the depression needs someone to come along side, to help them on the journey back out.
God is there ready to carry us out. but God's earthyly representatives have to be ready to listen as well.
It could some one like your wife, or a church mentor, etc.  There is no such thing as will power, in depression , will power has to be God power, we must be able to totally throw ourselves into God's arms, because our mind is in such turmoil, that we think God frequently, has abandon and rejected us, Yes we can reason and know better than to believe that lie. But depression has a way of snaring you into that lie.
Am I making sense: I am just describing what I have felt.  Reason and depression are not compatible.
Only by the Grace of God's love that anchor's us.

     These are some wonderful posts, and I pray that many saints who experience depression will be led to read them, & perhaps print out excerpts from them for future reference.

     Exercise.          Crying.          Laughing.          All are effective stress-relievers, causing actual chemical changes within our physical bodies that can help us to escape the emotional clutches of depression and walk in the light as He is in the light.

     I am familiar with the seemingly endless tunnel & the bottomless pit, dark & so deep that I have to stand on tiptoe to try & reach bottom.  Depression can seem like the mines of Moria.  When one is in there, reason is handicapped, possibly even powerless.  Rationally, we can discuss the difference between reality and realization:  
     Reality is that God bears us up, just as in that overworked little depiction of "Footprints."  Even when we have no awareness, no sense, of the Lord's presence, He carries us through our trials, surrounding us with His love and protection.  But when our emotions are askew, the only realization we have is of the present trial we are in the midst of.  The joy of the Lord seems as a myth, if we can think of it at all.
     It is vitally important that when we are not weighed down, we pray for the Lord to teach us how to respond when we are weighed down-- for it will surely happen again if we live.

     I ask the Lord to teach me the meaning of prayer without ceasing and giving thanks in all things.  I think I have begun to grasp the principle, but the specifics can be elusive.  Take for example, physical pain:  I have experienced headaches all my life, and am familiar with numerous other physical symptoms varying from moderate discomfort to agony.  As my parents both suffered frequent physical pain, I grew up thinking of pain as a normal part of life, to be treated with whatever method is most effective.  It is not natural for me to think of praying concerning my pain.
     A few years ago I read a book by a former US Navy SEAL team commander who said, "Pain is your friend-- It reminds you that you're alive."  His point was that in the extreme situations in which his team members might find themselves, despair could set in easily, and to numb the pain of one's wound with a narcotic can mean losing the mental edge needed for survival.
     Only recently have I begun to ask the Lord to teach me to regard my pain as a friend that reminds me to pray about its cause and my response to it, instead of merely accepting and medicating it.  My physical pain often depresses me-- I now ask God to teach me how to not succumb to that process.

     There is a balance between our physical, mental, emotional and spiritual lives, but it is as complex as we are.  Only the Lord can teach us to recognize and employ that balance, and He instructs us to ask Him regarding it.

al

WEDNESDAY JUNE 2, 7:27 PM:

HELLO AGAIN AL: WE SEEMED TO BE PING PONGING OFF OF EACH OTHER.

I just want to let other know about another thread, called Depression, in the  Post Assembly Section, Second  Posting of Telling about Assembly Experience.


I discover that post first, and then just gravitated to this one.
The subject of depression, emotionals struggles are through out the B & B, as christian family, is dealing at various stages of dealing with what has transpired, with in the assembly, within their own home life, and within there own personal experiences.

So this is just a short note, of information.

talk to you later
Lenore