Sondra speaks out.

[moonflower2]

V is implying that others (namely me) are exercising bad conduct that will drag Joe down into error i.e. I am exercising bad conduct by my inquiries to acquire the totality of the facts?  Haven't we been discussing being pressured to not ask questions and not to have opinions that differ from status quo.  This is really TOO MUCH, Verne.  Everything is not about you.  Joe has an opinion doesn't he?  I think it's healthy for Joe to speak up.  I think it's healthy for you to learn to be quiet.  Two different ways that self-control can work well for two people....one to action, one to inaction.  Consider it...you might get a breakthrough.

I thought you were done or does your word mean anything?   

Well, that lasted a whopping five days.  I think this board is sick to death of this type of fighting. 

THEN STOP MAKING ARGUMENTS OUT OF SO MANY POSTS ON THIS BB, SJ.

You won't reconcile

Bobcat Stalks Camel

[brian]

sondra,

this is not an isolated incident. you frequently post in a way that is offensive and inciteful, which is why we all react to you the way we do. i don't think there is a single regular poster that you have not torn into. this needs to stop if you want to continue posting here.

sincerely,

brian

[sfortescue]

Sondra's latest post on SWTE reminds me of the time Marie Antoinette said, "Let them eat cake."  We've seen the outcome of such languge in France.


Jeremiah 23:1
Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 22:13
Woe unto him that buildeth his house by unrighteousness, and his chambers by wrong; that useth his neighbour's service without wages, and giveth him not for his work;

Jeremiah 22:17
But thine eyes and thine heart are not but for thy covetousness, and for to shed innocent blood, and for oppression, and for violence, to do it.

Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Of the Pharisees:

John 5:42
But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.

Of the Pharisees:

John 8:44-45
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.  And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

John 9:39-41
And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.  And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?  Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

John 10:1,10
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. ...  The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.


Jesus is the door.  We receive salvation through faith in his propitiation for our sins, not by our efforts to make ourselves better.

I had thought that Sondra was merely confused, but her insistence on thinking to save herself by her own efforts, followed by her attempts to destroy Joe, these seem like evidence that she is like the thief and robber.  The Pharisees were like that, and Jesus said that their father was the devil.

[Oscar]

Howdy folks,

I have been pretty busy and haven't had much time for the board lately, but I have been reading this thread.  I have no intention of getting into a conversation with Sondra about her oft repeated views.  But I am going to make a few observations.

1. Yesterday I looked at the SWTE website.  It's been about a year since I took a look.  I noticed that it says that there are 26 members.  I looked at a few threads.  There seem to be about 5 people that actually post there.  I noticed that Brent and Marcia are among this number.  The others seem to be Sondra, Matt (Spilling?), and "Bob Smith".  Also "M2" or something like that.

I found myself wondering if there really IS a Bob Smith.  He sounds so much like Sondra that the thought arose in my mind that he might actually BE Sondra.  Anyone know this guy, or know of him?  Right or wrong, it is an interesting idea eh?  (See, I can speak some Canadian)

What is not in doubt is the parasitical relationship that SWTE has with this board, which they refer to as the "AB".

It was a combination of interesting and weird to see that people have been holding conversations with me that I didn't know about!  What they do is to copy my, (and other's) posts off this board, quote them over there, and then talk to us.  "Well Mr. Tom Maddux you say that.......but I say........and you are.........and filled with.......just like all the others on the AB board."   Strange and stranger.

Its sort of like a kid talking to his invisible friend, only in this case they don't LIKE their invisible friend(s).  "Affirming" ie Sondra is quite clear as to her contempt for those who post on the AB.  We are arrogant, hateful, bitter, ambitious, on and on and on.

2. In reading Affirming-Ruth-Sondra's posts on this board, I noted that she refers to herself as "a daughter of George and Betty"  In this, she is absolutely correct.

Have you noticed the fundamental characteristic of her accusations?  She attacks folk's character.  This is SOOO George Geftakys.  It was his FAVORITE tactic when people questioned or disagreed with him.  How well I remember.  She knows, as did her mentor, that it is impossible to defend yourself against such filth.  Problem is, it is also impossible to prove that these accusations are true.  In George's case, he got to define his victim.  Sondra only has that power if you choose to give it to her.

Verne, who apparently knows her from the past, spoke of her in very strong language.  By adopting OT language and by making rude comments implying sexual misconduct, he opened the door to her claim that she had been mistreated, which has some legitimacy, that got her a hearing on the "AB".  I created this thread in order to give her her say. 

But it is quite evident that it is not about Verne.  She has come here for all of us.

3. What she is doing is to actually create a past for each of us.  Our past statements are combed through, remembered or quoted, and used in support of her accusations.  We then are expected to relate to her on the basis of what she has accused us of! 

But, she is magnanimous.  If we approach her with enough deference she will deign to converse with us, but our "past" is always there.  You will never be allowed to "live it down".  She "knows" who you really are.

Sound familiar?

4. She presents herself as a person of great spiritual discernment and understanding.  Claim after claim after claim of spiritual discernment and understanding...which allows her to explain our failings to us. 

Sound familiar?

5. She claims to have a deep understanding of the scriptures, which she obtained by "listening to the voice of the Spirit."   When she attempts to support her ideas with scripture, it is nothing more than GG's method of making the Bible say whatever you think it should say through his bogus "typology" and "spiritual understanding".  Joseph is a type of the "spirit man", the brothers are types of worldly men etc. etc.

I threw Watchman Nee's "The Spiritual Man" in the trash years ago. 

George didn't...and apparently neither did Sondra.

6. Her tactics against Joe are pure GG.  You see, Joe didn't mean what HE thought he meant, he meant what SHE SAYS he meant!  No Joe, don't try to explain yourself, Sondra has discerned you.  She knows the hidden meaning of what you post.  On and on. 

IMHO, Sondra's treatment of Joe was evil.

7. She has accused the regular posters of "seeking a place".  I, it seems, want to be "the Bible teacher".  Mark, "the pastor", etc. etc.  This was GG's standard accusation against anyone who had any abilities whatever.  I heard it again and again.

One wonders who Sondra holds conversations with.   

8. Enough of this.  I let Sondra have this thread to let her have her say about Verne's accusations.  I am not going to lock it.  But I am going to delete any of her posts that contain any more of these nasty accusations against people's characters, such as her reply to Steve Fortescue today. 
Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

[Uh Oh]

Go Tom!!!

I checked out that board myself awhile back and kind of had to laugh.  I'm not sure why they need their own bb when there is fewer that 3 or 4 people posting.  Those people ought to just create an email list and save themself the expense!  I agree with Tom that Bob Smith has got to be make believe.  He is Sondra's version of Snuffleuplegus...."Bob Smith" - come on, come up with something better than that!  I am thinking we should create a character on this board.  Lets call him "John Doe".

The new name for Sondra's website is officially "soaring with the schizo's"....

Bob F.

[M2]

re-post again

Hi Joe,

Your car story is an all too familiar story.  We had stuff like that happening in Ottawa (which was not affected by Fullerton ) all the time.

Some time ago there was a thread called Pierced Ears where we discussed some of those stories.
see: www.assemblyboard.com/index.php?topic=466.15

Blessings,
Marcia

Bob Smith has mis-understood me (again ) and I realize that others may as well.  Hence I am re-posting and clarifying, because I would not want to post lies about anyone.

In my post quoted above I said, "We had stuff like that happening in Ottawa ... all the time."
I did not mean that we said No to the LBW all the time and we all had to sell our cars as a result.
(Bob, most of our kids either walked or were bussed to school anyway, so we did not need our cars to drive them to school.)
I meant that there was an abusive system of control by the LB/LBW such that we were criticized for every little decision we made if it was not the same decision that the LB/LBW would have made in the same circumstances.
We had these 'flavour of the week' rules that those of us outside the inner ring had to figure out since we were not in the know.  Then there were the doorkeeper rules which I called the rules of the Medes and Persians which could not be revoked. etc. etc. etc.

This might be a good time to talk about George intervening on behalf of Sondra.
George may have intervened for any of the following reasons:
1.  He felt compassion for Sondra especially since he might have seen or heard that she was weeping over what the LB said.
2.  In intervening, he secured someone who would be sympathethic towards him, and possibly maintained control over the LB as well.

I heard many similar (ie not exactly the same, but similar) stories.  I will re-count one.
GG intervened on behalf of a sister whose husband did not want her going on some trip, and GG told the husband to "Let her go."  The sister had really wanted to go, but the husband may have been considering other factors like finances and health, or maybe the husband was just being a you-know-what.  GG made it a habit of referring to this sister as a Deborah.  Added to the fact that she was a 'chosen' one, well her undying loyalty was secured, until the news of his excommunication.

There are other stories too, but needles to say that GG and his servants were masters at psychological manipulation and control.  There is a very good reason that Johnson and VanVonderen have entitled their book The Subtle Power Spiritual Abuse.

Got to go,
Marcia

on edit:

The brother in Sondra's story was not identified by her as being a LB.  I mistakenly referred to him as one.  I apologize.

I presented 2 possible scenarios re. GG's motivation for intervention.  I do not know which one it was and am not inclined to verify with GG himself.

When Sondra tells a story about her assembly past she has a good reason for doing so.  When we do, we are labelled as bitter unforgiving etc. etc.

I remember the year that Steve and Margaret Irons came to the Mid-West seminar.  It was circa 1984.  Steve and Margaret had missed the spring seminar in Fullerton that year because they were visiting family at Easter, so in order to catch up they attended the Mid-West seminar (which was the same seminar as the Fullerton spring one).

Marcia

P.S.  Tom, M2 on SWTE is my login name.  Since I deleted my account there, all my posts are now identified as M2 Guest.

Marcia

[Joe Sperling]

Sondra---

You signed the post below:  Sondra--Bob, Bob--Sondra.  So are you saying you really are
the same? I ask this because in a post further below you tell me to read a hyperlink put together
by "Bob" because he can "say it better than I can". This I cannot understand. And in your
post you are still questioning the same things you did before afte numerous attempts to
explain. Do you ever hold to the fact that you might be wrong about something? It truly
appears to be in the negative. When you believe something is one way, only your way is
the correct way. If anyone disagrees with you they are "bitter" or "argumentative".

You put forth a partial story and immediately expected everyone to believe it--and it held
a theme of abuse. Because you stated it, it was "OK". I cannot even begin to imagine how
you would have reacted if I had questioned the veracity of YOUR story. But you felt free to
cast doubts on my story from long ago. These things I do not understand. If I had referred
you to a hyperlink for a "Bob",  and it turned out to be me, you would hold my feet to the
fire for being secretive and less than truthful. But you apparently are allowed to do these
things because in your own mind you are right and everyone else is wrong.

I wish you would go back and seriously read your own posts. If you had simply said "Joe,
I'd like to hear more about your story--if you don't want to share it on the board, could
you E-mail me with it?" But in your posts there is a purposeful attempt to cast doubt "Doesn't that sound suspicious?" "I never heard of anything like that happening in the Assemblies" "Don't you find it strange that he only shares part of the story?"  This is an obvious attempt to cast doubt,
discredit, and question integrity. When you shared your story of abuse, and crying at breakfast,
did anyone question your integrity? Did I say "Doesn't this sound suspicious? etc. etc.?"

I had no reason to doubt you, and I still don't. I think it is terrible that you suffered at the hands
of others to the point you had to weep at breakfast.  But it never appears that you come to the
board to build anyone up, or to try to encourage, or try to uplift. You have every right in the world
to come and clear your name, and seek apologies. But you don't have the right to try to tear everyone else down in the process. If you carefully read your posts you will see an "attack mode"
that seems to be perpetually on. You seem to only be concerned about how YOU have been wronged, and what others have said to you. You even attack and cast doubt on the apologies
that people try to make towards you--myself included. I really want to understand you better,
and as you yourself have said "give you the benefit of the doubt", but you take every post and
pick it apart, attacking the person personally, or casting doubt on their integrity.

You mention fighting and bitterness, but you seem to be the one spreading the most of it on the
board. I've tried to apologize to you, explain myself to you, use humor on you, and all it has done
is to drive more negative remarks in my direction from you. This is true in the case of just about
everyone on the board. If you perceive this as an attack then there is nothing else I can do. I am
being as honest as I can be towards you. If you expect only the most glowing of posts towards you
without any disagreements you will be waiting a long time. Because there definitely are disagreements that will probably always exist. I don't see "eye to eye" with everyone on the board, but I don't have to cast doubt about them every time we disagree.
One of your themes is "spirituality"--one of the greatest signs of "spirituality (and I admit fully I need to learn it more and more myself) is to "remove the log from your own eye before you seek to remove the speck from your brother's eye". Perhaps you'll pick this post apart as the rest, but I wanted to give it one more try.

--Joe

[al Hartman]

   ...the Lord Jesus says, “My sheep hear My voice, I know them and they follow me.”

Sondra - Bob, Bob - Sondra  

Sondra,

It is good to see that you actually can and do state the name of Jesus and refer to Him as Lord.  I had honest doubts...

I believe I have stated my thoughts openly and clearly to you on this and the previous (now locked) thread.  I have attempted to be both honest and gracious, attempting to not argue and allowing the benefit of the doubt to you in such cases as I doubted your sincerity.  In so doing, I have incurred the displeasure of some of my brethren who think that I should have sided with their views and been hard toward you.  That is as may be, and is a matter between them and the Lord who I seek to satisfy.  I have no hard feelings toward anyone and no regrets for my posts nor my private communications.

Now I have something to ask of you.  It is not an obligation on your part-- you owe me nothing at all.  It is a request for a favor.

One good thing I salvaged from my assy years is the format of chapter summary.  While I have no fond memories of chapter summary meetings, the basic principle of study has served me well though my life:  *Find out what is being said; ** identify how it applies to me personally; ***determine what I am to do about it.  This process has been useful to me in all phases of living.

Now I have followed these threads diligently from before your first post under the name Ruth, and I honestly still have no idea what you are trying to say or what you want of any and/or all here on this board.  So here's the favor I'm asking of you:

If you will, please, following the pattern I have just outlined above, tell us clearly in plain language:

1.]  What exactly is your message to us?  What are you trying to say-- to get across to us?

2.]  What do you think your message should mean to us, individually and/or collectively, on a practical, practicable level?

3.]  What do you want us, individually and/or collectively, to do about it?

Please, Sondra, before answering give some serious prayer and thought to the request & its component parts.

If I post again on this thread, I would like it to be in response to your answer.

In Jesus Christ our Lord,
al

[Oscar]

Sondra,

Please take notice that I edited the nastiest paragraphs out of your post.  Brian warned you, and so did I.

Mr. Thomas Maddux

[moonflower2]

I told the whole story and stated that I would answer ANY AND ALL QUESTIONS re. that story.  There's little comparison in how the two respective stories were presented, IMO.  I told the whole story.  Now how is that part, esp. when I offer to answer any questions?

Why don't you re-read your most recent post.  I am painted with a very broad brush. You this and You that. You. You. You.  I will never be the kind of Christian OTHERS THINK I SHOULD BE.  This is a great secret to my spiritual survival.  Indifference to rejection of other Christians who want me to conform to THEIR WAYS.  I only follow one WAY...Christ.  Differences in style, personality, non-essential beliefs - I could care less.  Tell me you love the Lord and I'll fight to the death to defend this one.  I didn't say I would indulge, rather fight for their welfare which is what I am doing now.  It is not visible because of so much blind bias and fear.

Those who are riddled with guilt take almost everything to imply that they are being accused.  I absolutely was not accusing, but I had no idea that I was touching such a HOT button.  I've learned to answer questions and disclose stuff so as to serve others who need those answers.  I don't sit on information that will give transparency that might be needed by my brothers and sisters.   

I think you should take the advice of your friends Joe and let it go.  No hard feelings, but you are not being honest and you can't help it.  You crucified me on this board yesterday by yelling "fire" in a packed theatre, so to speak.  Gosh, now I will be in trouble for making you feel guilty again.  I can't do much about your feelings or anyone else's without compromising things that are too precious.  I will take my lumps.  "What one compromises to keep he will surely lose."  It's not necessarily "assembly related" for people to struggle with controlling their emotions - such as guilt.  It's human frailty.  With regard to guilt, it is as important to put the shoe on if it fits as it is to pass it on if it doesn't. 

Most folks from the assembly had a big lack of understanding of guilt.  I had my own experience and I've helped others since to get rid of that incredible pain and replace it with great joy and confidence in God.  Classic symptom of a study of doctrine according to the letter of the law.  It needs to be converted in order to get out of that bondage.     

Sondra

Btw.  The post is Bob's.   

This was also something that happened frequently, in the past Geftakregime, and that was to read your problems into another person, and believe that they were doing what, in fact, you were doing yourself. I don't know what causes this phenomenon. Maybe Tom would have some insight.

MIRRORS DON'T LIE.            DO A CHECK, S.J...................

[sfortescue]

A while back, some of Matt Peeling's posts seemed as if they were written by Luke Robinson.

Sondra's latest post says that it was written by "Bob Smith".

I'm beginning to think that a few of Sondra's posts on SWTE, or at least parts of them may have actually been written by George Geftakys himself.  This might explain the extaordinary "search and destroy" attitude toward anything said that even hints that there might have been something wrong with the assembly.  I remember seeing a post by Sondra on SWTE in which she agreed that the assembly had serious problems.  This contradiction is further evidence that we're dealing with more than one person here.

[Oscar]

Steve,

When I posted:

One wonders who Sondra holds conversations with.   

I was wondering if Sondra/Affirming/Ruth/Bob? is in contact with GG.  Interesting idea.

Thomas Maddux

[moonflower2]

My opinion they are all SJ. GG wouldn't "waste" his time posting on here, and they are too silly to be his posts.

In a previous post, someone was told that "Bob Smith" left an assembly before they (the someone) came out there. If I remember correctly, the town was Champaign. Is that where S.J. lives now?

Would GG have communications with someone who left the assy much earlier than this?

Curious thought though................

[M2]

Looks like it's time to play the theme music from Twilight Zone eh??

I seriously doubt that GG is directly involved here, though I do not know for sure.
Bob Smith is someone other than Sondra.
Sondra is who she claims to be and formerly from the Champaign assembly as she has stated on AB or SWTE.

Sometimes or even oftentimes, it helps to put oneself in the others' shoes to understand what they are attempting to communicate.
If the other person tends to sidetrack the conversation, it is no reason for me to behave likewise.

I'll use Joe's story to illustrate my point here.  Personally, I have no reason to doubt Joe's story.  But I can see how someone from SWTE would need more of the scenario to decide for themselves whether or Joe's story is valid.  For example, if Joe was a bum and couldn't afford to pay the rent and then he had this car, I might be inclined to advise him to sell his car if he wanted to remain in the home.  Since they, SWTE, do not know the reason that Joe was compelled to sell his car, they then question whether or not his story is legit.
Of course, the fact that we, on AB, had a recent experience where Sondra would not accept Joe's explanation for his joke, meant that we doubted the validity of Sondra's request for an explanation of the reason he said No to the LBW.
Joe, may not feel comfortable will giving more details and I would respect that.  There are other stories to illustrate the point.

Blessings,
Marcia

[Mercy4Me]

Whoa, everybody...how about taking a week off from this and see if you can stand it. if not, you might need some counseling for BB addiction.