Salvation is a Gift....now what?

[al Hartman]

Saying that God chooses his nature/character/attributes, implies that things such as truth, righteousness, holiness exist separately from God. It supposes that these are things that exist in eternity outside of God.

God says what's true, right and pure.  Their existence is his choice.

What that says is that there are forces in the universe, good and bad, and this immensely powerful being we call God chooses which force he represents.

God is more than immensely powerful.  There is no force that he didn't create.

I've been saying that God IS truth, righteousness, holiness and they are NOT attributes that he puts on or chooses or sides with or aligns himself with.

The Bible teaches that God is a person, not merely abstract qualities.

Therefore, he CANNOT lie. He CANNOT be unfaithful. He CANNOT be stained. Because then he would not be who he is and he has said, "I am that I am."

So this does not limit him in any fashion.

There is no contradiction here.

     ...what Stephen said...

 ;)al

[Kimberley Tobin]

What Scott said.  

[Joe Sperling]

What if God is simply the dream of another God, and I'm really a worm dreaming I'm human?

  sorry.

[Mark Kisla]

What if God is simply the dream of another God, and I'm really a worm dreaming I'm human?

  sorry.

Joe, did you  forget to say the 'selfers prayer' this morning ?

[jesusfreak]

"I am that I am" could be said in reverse: "I am because I am."  The essential meaning being that God decides his own existence.  It's as if he is saying that he created himself.  The question about God changing his mind is illogical because God doesn't make mistakes.

What do you think of this? (It is a quote from a friend's theology dissertation that I have been thinking about for a while now)

"It is not to God (to) whom we relate, but to the effects of His being; grace, love, and perfection.  While Our perception of each is subject to subtle change resulting from environmental elements, the reason for their existence, their effect upon Our existence, and the applicatory nature of their existence universally remain the same."

--
lucas

Effect -- noun -- a result
Effect -- verb -- to cause to be
Affect -- verb -- to influence
Affect -- verb -- to aspire to -- (archaic)
Affect -- noun -- an emotion -- (archaic)

Many apologies - I didn't have his paper in front of me and was attempting to quote it      The grammar issues are on my end

Saying that God chooses his nature/character/attributes, implies that things such as truth, righteousness, holiness exist separately from God. It supposes that these are things that exist in eternity outside of God.

I would still say that all these traits are the derivative of actions; they may work well to "define" God in this Universe, but that does not mean they would define Him in another.  

This is only relevant as it is important to realize that "good" is only able to be shown with a running comparison to "bad".  Similarly, while the actions God has made in refernence to Man are constant enough to use potentially interchangably as Him in the Universe we know (as you argue, Truth/Holiness/Righteousness), they are only shown to the extent that we can understand.  Ie, we are shown holiness....but as holiness is just a trait of actions, there must  exist a greater holiness that will make what God has shown us seem "bad".  

My point is, it is a bad idea to define anything by actions, but a good one to classify by characteristics.  

--
lucas

[Scott McCumber]

Saying that God chooses his nature/character/attributes, implies that things such as truth, righteousness, holiness exist separately from God. It supposes that these are things that exist in eternity outside of God.

God says what's true, right and pure.  Their existence is his choice.

What that says is that there are forces in the universe, good and bad, and this immensely powerful being we call God chooses which force he represents.

God is more than immensely powerful.  There is no force that he didn't create.

I've been saying that God IS truth, righteousness, holiness and they are NOT attributes that he puts on or chooses or sides with or aligns himself with.

The Bible teaches that God is a person, not merely abstract qualities.

Therefore, he CANNOT lie. He CANNOT be unfaithful. He CANNOT be stained. Because then he would not be who he is and he has said, "I am that I am."

So this does not limit him in any fashion.

There is no contradiction here.

I think we're pretty much at a point where we understand each other, we just don't agree. Which is fine, too.

Did want to clarify a couple things, though. I did not say God was merely an immensely powerful being. I said that I believed your supposition would reduce him to that logically.

The bible does teach God is a person. I did not say God is "merely abstract qualities". You implied that righteousness, holiness, truth, etc. are forces God created. I said God's existence defines them.

By your line of reasoning, God created good and he also created evil and he chose to align himself with good and oppose evil.

I said God's existence defines good and the absence of God is evil.

I certainly don't have to have the last word, so feel free to continue to rebut me, but again, I think we're starting to go in circles.

Especially since we are way off topic on this thread and it's purely speculation anyway. Maybe someday we can picnic under the Tree of Life and grin at each other in embarrassment as Jesus tells us the way it REALLY is!

S

[sfortescue]

Scott, (and Kimberley, based on your endorsement,)

It seems as if you are extending the political premise that no man can be trusted with absolute authority to include God as well.

Isaiah 45:7,9
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. ...  Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker!  Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth.  Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

Job 23:3,10,13-15
Oh that I knew where I might find him! that I might come even to his seat! ...  But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold. ...  But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.  For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.  Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him.

(Click the quote links to read the full stories.)

I should have had more faith.  It could well be that my failure at this point was the reason that the Lord has put me through such hard times since then.

In retrospect, I think that perhaps what the Lord had wanted me to do then was to quit my job and move to San Luis Obispo.  It was soon after this that I made the mistake of taking upon myself a project at work which the Lord didn't want me to do.  I was clueless about company politics.  Enemies worked behind the scenes to cause the project to fail.

Since losing my job there, there have been a few times that I might have been more thoughtful and made a better choice in a decision of life.  On those occasions there seemed to be evidence of subtle manipulation so that I would make the wrong choice.

... this person claimed to have protection from some sort of organization ...

After the telling of the forbidden thing, it might have been that my dessert at a Christmas dinner was poisoned.  I was in bed with chemically induced hepatitis for three weeks.  At a later date the small company I worked for moved to another building.  The carpet in the area where I was to work was thoroughly saturated with some kind of solvent, perhaps benzene.  This caused some kind of severe allergic reaction so that I had to quit, and my health was bad for a long time afterwards.

My faith was shaken by these things.  It seemed as if God was defending the lies and falsehoods of this evil organization.  I decided that if God is acting contrary to what the Bible teaches, then it would seem that the Bible is not true.  It was not possible to reject the existence of God, since the scientific evidence in favor of the existence of God cannot be denied.  I just couldn't conceive his nature and identity.  From the philosophical point of view he has to be good, because otherwise there would be no reason for him to exist.  I ended up arguing with him while I was hiking in the arroyo behind my mom's mobile home, and he caused me to fall and break my hip.

After the hospital stay I lived at my mom's place for several months.  I started watching a some spanish language TV to improve my understanding of the language.  The Lord reached my heart with a crazy story in a show produced by Catholics called "Carita de Angel".  In the story a man disowned his daughter because he didn't approve of the man she married.  Because of that he never met his granddaughter.  Subsequently his daughter died and the man he didn't approve of remarried.  The Spanish word for this is "rencor".  Besides its obvious meaning, it can also mean a grudge.  The idea that a man wouldn't want to meet his granddaughter because of a grudge is rather far fetched, but then, so is having a grudge against God who loves me.  Looking up the word again, I just noticed that a very similar word "renco" means lame in the hip.

So I've learned the hard way that God can do anything he wants.  I don't know if he will let me walk again, but early last year he promised that he would do good for me.  He also indicated the need for my manners to improve, and my memory of people.  Thinking about remembering people was what led to my discovery of the GA web site and this BB.

[Oscar]

What if God is simply the dream of another God, and I'm really a worm dreaming I'm human?

  sorry.

Joe,

We've all been PMing each other for weeks about this.

We didn't want you to find out you were only a worm.

 

Thomas Maddux

[Oscar]

Steve,

You wrote, "
After the hospital stay I lived at my mom's place for several months.  I started watching a some spanish language TV to improve my understanding of the language.  The Lord reached my heart with a crazy story in a show produced by Catholics called "Carita de Angel".  In the story a man disowned his daughter because he didn't approve of the man she married.  Because of that he never met his granddaughter.  Subsequently his daughter died and the man he didn't approve of remarried.  The Spanish word for this is "rencor".  Besides its obvious meaning, it can also mean a grudge.  The idea that a man wouldn't want to meet his granddaughter because of a grudge is rather far fetched, but then, so is having a grudge against God who loves me.  Looking up the word again, I just noticed that a very similar word "renco" means lame in the hip."

Caryl and I watched Carita de Angel many times.  I was still teaching Spanish language students at the time, and I found that almost all their families watched it regularly.

It was a very intriguing story.  Although sometimes it was downright silly, the way Dulce Maria won her grandfather's heart and healed his bitterness was something I have never seen portrayed on tv before.  I was heartwarming to watch.

Speaking of heartwarming, you seem to need a little yourself.  Do you have wise, godly men (or women) in your life right now for fellowship and counsel?

I know that when I have been perplexed and troubled on occassion, it has really helped to talk it over with a brother of spiritual experience and stature.

Hang in there Steve.   God loves us far more than we realize.  Some of the best lessons I have learned have been learned when I was emotionally prostrated by some problem that seemed almost overwhelming.

God was always there, always faithful.  Glory's cancer and Grace's adolescent troubles were hard trials.

But we look back in joy at what God did for us, and in us.

Hebrews 13:6 is still true.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

[Joe Sperling]

Tom----

Thanks. I've always wondered why I wake up sometimes, rolling around on the wet lawn at night , and have such a great  fear of the sound of birds.

--Joe

[al Hartman]

     Joe Sperling, folks, the perfect fishing companion!

[M2]

We are studying Church History in the Sunday adult class I attend.

Martin Luther came on the scene when the established church was corrupt. They acquired wealth via indulgences and through the renaissance artists (which they commissioned).  The opulence and corruption shook the confidence in the church which had become more political and less religious.  Hence the reformation.

A familiar story.  The leader of the study made an interesting comment.  Martin Luther's nailing his 95 thesis to the church door in Wittenberg was akin to the modern day Bulletin Board.  Thus he was publicly challenging the authority of the church and opening up the matter for public debate.

In 1517 it Martin Luther was the man who was willing to bear the reproach and stand up for his convictions.

Marcia

[moonflower2]

We are studying Church History in the Sunday adult class I attend.

Martin Luther came on the scene when the established church was corrupt. They acquired wealth via indulgences and through the renaissance artists (which they commissioned).  The opulence and corruption shook the confidence in the church which had become more political and less religious.  Hence the reformation.

A familiar story.  The leader of the study made an interesting comment.  Martin Luther's nailing his 95 thesis to the church door in Wittenberg was akin to the modern day Bulletin Board.  Thus he was publicly challenging the authority of the church and opening up the matter for public debate.

In 1517 it Martin Luther was the man who was willing to bear the reproach and stand up for his convictions.

Marcia

Hmm.....very interesting.

Thanks, Marcia

Moonflower

[M2]

Hmm.....very interesting.

Thanks, Marcia

Moonflower

MF2,

Here's another historical event that is interesting.

Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat to some white folk on the bus she was riding.  This brought the issue of segregation to the forefront.  In the process it cost her and her husband their jobs.  It cost other prominent black families their homes, but the end result was integration.

Her conviction and resulting choices affected her and her family and other families, but someone needed to take the first step and Rosa Parks was the one to do so.

So, yes there is a cost when one stands for what's right.

Blessings,
Marcia

[vernecarty]

MF2,

Here's another historical event that is interesting.

Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat to some white folk on the bus she was riding.  This brought the issue of segregation to the forefront.  In the process it cost her and her husband their jobs.  It cost other prominent black families their homes, but the end result was integration.

Her conviction and resulting choices affected her and her family and other families, but someone needed to take the first step and Rosa Parks was the one to do so.

So, yes there is a cost when one stands for what's right.

Blessings,
Marcia

Has anybody seen the movie Barbershop?
According to one of the barbershop philosphers, Rosa Parks didn't derserve that much credit.
While I don't necessarily agree with him, his take on the whole affair was hysterically funny. The movie offended a lot(mostly blacks) of folk...
Verne

YIKES!! 'LEVEN HUNDRED ALREADY??!!!!!!!!