trac4yt
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« Reply #75 on: November 08, 2007, 08:23:24 pm » |
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Assume a 100 of your churches..100 in each...10,000 members. Assume (approx.) 30 years..10,000 days. Assume "mind was chock-full of Scripture (Lee per Marg)"..7000 meetings...10,000 verses of 31,102 Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all. (Eph 4:6) Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all. (Col 3:11) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? (1Co 3:16) On an average day of the 10,000, ALL were predestined, chosen, rapturable, saved, born-again, sealed, "in Christ", adopted, children of God, eternally secure, possessors of everlasting life, members of the body of Christ, etc... ...and... ..sainted and "tainted"?  --> Where was God??  Surely He wasn't lifeless, plasticized and magnetized, propped up on the dashboard of a '57 Chevy in the parking lot. If no one got any good from anything, did God get any good from 10,000 days of prayers, etc.? Perhaps 10,000 angels would have helped... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbTucSguJ6w  |
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« Last Edit: November 08, 2007, 08:26:57 pm by trac4yt »
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trac4yt
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« Reply #76 on: November 08, 2007, 09:04:30 pm » |
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bring back joe...bring back joe...bring back joe.... |
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Christine
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« Reply #78 on: November 09, 2007, 06:33:05 am » |
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Thanks to you all, I see the answer to my original question about the value of things we did, at least as it pertains to myself. This is what I wrote Joe in a private email:
"I need to apologize to you for posing my question on the bb about "good things we DID". Having been a believer for years before meeting George, the doctrinal stuff didn't affect me the same as it has many others. And I was sheltered from being on the receiving end of most of the abuse, brow-beating and intimadation. The result is that I was grossly lacking in sensitivity in posting that question. I am sorry from the bottom of my heart. You and Mark and others have opened my eyes. Some Assembly folks were effectively used by God for the benefit of others, mainly outside the Assembly, like Juvenile Hall, the Rescue Mission, retirement homes, etc. But for myself, my involvement was entirely within the framework of the Assembly and therefore was completely tainted, not necessariy by my motives, but by the framework we were operating in. I see now that if any good will ever be shown to have come of any of it, it will be because of what happens now, not then. I think of this every Sunday in the public confession of sin in our church--'Where we thought we were well, we are sick in soul...' "
Margaret Thank You for your sincerity in posting here and also for ga.com. |
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Christine
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« Reply #79 on: November 09, 2007, 06:34:19 am » |
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Margaret, (and other readers) Thank you so much for your gracious post that reflects a willingness to consider what Joe explained in his own Assembly experience (and many others as well). It has been a difficult subject to discuss, especially when there have been those that have taken the question and attempted to unjustly suggest that the group had a lot that God approved of--- and that can be used in our lives with God now as a result. I know that you never intended such an implication in the asking of your question. As Paul said to the Galatians, "who hath bewitched you?" when these believers wanted to mix (80/20?) into the Gospel the kind of teaching that the Assm. promoted. The worse kind of tainting, though, came when that bad teaching was combined with abusive control over the lives of the members; this made for a very toxic mix!  In the search for "good things", (in trying to make sense of our lives with God now) we can look back, within ourselves, or for that church out there somewhere where God will meet us, and thus discover a life without any taint at all. However, I have not had much success with that, as there is very little to be found that doesn't bear sin's stain. This fact seems to support the oft repeated adage of "all churches have problems" (are tainted), and "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven", and this has been misused to support the notion that we should just give up and accept a certain percentage of tainting and move on "(ignore the negative and accentuate the positive"). While we will always have failings, and should be forgiving of others who sin against us, these truths must be accompanied with the practice of honest agreement of what those problems are and a willingness to find reconciliation with those offended ("leave your gift at the altar, etc."). The Assm., and many of it's current supporters, have a strong resistance to taking responsibility for their actions and don't see any need for reconciliation. You have in the sweet spirit of Christ, via your post Margaret, demonstrated exactly what that confession and reconciliation looks like. The story of Joseph and his brethren (something I wrote about in the past) demonstrates the same process of taking those that wronged their brother and how God brought this family to recovery. The strange harshness of Joseph was necessary to awaken the conscience of the abusers and take them from denial to joyful reconciliation! The above means of recovery is sidestepped if we deny, minimize, excuse, or otherwise refuse to consider the facts of what kind of group we were in, and what our failings were while there. Those encouraging us to avoid these needed steps (while quoting different proof texts) are hindering God's purposes as his grace can only heal where there is honest evaluation and confession re. that "tainting." God is very good and the riches of his goodness are without any taint at all, but we must see our own need before we will ask, "Sir, give me that water---" An evil conscience that denies the truth will not feel the joy of that living water. God Bless, Mark C. Hi mark, Thank you for your clear and concise posts. I dont usually have much to post but can appreciate you posts. |
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trac4yt
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« Reply #80 on: November 09, 2007, 06:51:10 am » |
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Assume 10,000 "DIDs" for you per month, while seeking to serve God... Surely, God would reward a high percentage. Likewise, Assume 10,000 "DOs" NOW for you per month, while seeking to serve God... Surely, God will reward a high percentage. May He reward you richly for ALL the years. |
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Oscar
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« Reply #81 on: November 10, 2007, 01:58:37 pm » |
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Margaret, In your linked article, are you saying that GG and BG planned the whole thing from the beginning as a means of displaying GG's vision of his glory? Tom Maddux |
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Margaret
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« Reply #82 on: November 10, 2007, 10:08:36 pm » |
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Tom, I'm not saying they consciously and coldly planned it. What I'm learning from life experiences with other narcissists is they don't understand their own motives but they are driven by their need for a superior image, narissistic strokes, and control over others. I am proposing that the Brethren format was the avenue at hand for G & B to feed his narcissism. The wife is complicit in these things because the burden of providing narcissistic supply for the husband is too great to be borne by one individual; she has to find others who will help her. The malignancy of them both is demonstrated by their willingness to injure others for it. My take is that George's narcissism made it imperative that he be blameless (pefect image), so they lied to themselves , as well as us, about the mixed motives and the damages. There is a fascinating website run by a self-confessed narcissist, http://samvak.tripod.com/, that is very insightful (bearing in mind, of course, that narcissists are liars, so what he says has to taken with a large dash of salt). This guy feeds his narcissism by being the expert on narcissism! What do you all think? |
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« Last Edit: November 10, 2007, 10:15:41 pm by Margaret »
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Mark C.
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« Reply #83 on: November 10, 2007, 11:32:55 pm » |
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Very informative link Margaret, and worthy of careful consideration. Trac4., My opinion of you, though you still remain a shadowy entity with very flawed thinking re. our former group, has improved greatly due to your posting of the Loretta Lynn performance, "10,000 angels". Anyone who can appreciate "The Queen of Country Music" must be more than just a spector who is hiding his/her/it's agenda, and probably does have a real soul after all! As to your question to Margaret: "Where was God?" He was outside of the Assembly knocking on it's door (Laodicea), because the frequency of religious activity (bible reading, prayer, and other "doings"") is not proof that God is active in ones life. Please consider the parable of the "Publican and the Pharisee" (LK. 18:9-14), where God heard and "justified" the Publican, while the Pharisee "prayed with himself." The Pharisee prayed longer, but with a self righteous attitude, while the Publican's prayer was very short indeed, yet his attitude produced a spiritual accomplishment ("did's"). There will be some that make the argument that the above parable describes only initial salvation because the phrase "justified before God" appears in the last verse of the pericope. However, the principle of being righteous before God, through a gift of God's mercy, is always how true spirituality will visit our hearts'---- initially and continually. So, true Christian faith, that God can approve of, must have a righteous expression that is willing to "come to the light that their deeds may be approved by God." The Assembly refused this, preferring to accept your notion that frequency of "did's" was worth more than honest confession and repentance. "Didn't many former members cry to God like the Publican while members of the group?", some will protest. Yes, and I did daily! "Doesn't that then mean God heard us and was still working in our lives individually despite all of the evil machinations of our group life?" This, of course, will be answered differently by each individual member, however, the problem with Assm. members who were like the Publican was that we didn't hear God say, "Go down to your house justified--". We heard that mercy starts us in our life with God, but self righteousness is the means to bring us to a "victorious end." Thus, molding us into the exact opposite of what grace is intended to make of us. Assm. teaching and practices performed the Galatian curse on members that kept us forever in the state of awareness of our sin without the benefit of full and free forgiveness. As long as we heard the bible, prayed, and "did" with the twisted "overcomer" teaching we received it had the effect of building a wall between the individual and God (not that God wanted this, it was the result of our "tainted" belief system). Those involved in leadership roles added to the above problem another where they were actively (or passively) supportive of those that abused God's people. Loyalty to GG and his vision were more important than loyalty to God and this brings the condemnation of idolatry. God is in opposition to this, and as long as I am committed to it, (though I read millions of verses and pray always) I will not experience the activity of God's Spirit in my life. Having said all this, this does not mean that God doesn't want me to hear him, be set free, and enjoy his joyful presence. The only resolution is to humbly and honestly accept the truth, confess my sins, and pursue true reconciliation with those that I've wronged. Denial of the facts, minimizing the realities, or attacking those pointing them out are for sure not the answer. All this talk of attempting to add-up all the "good things I did" is equivalent to the Pharisee recounting to God in the parable above "God, I thank you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers, or even like this tax collector." (here comes his list) "I fast twice a week, and give a tenth of all I get." Just think if this guy, was say, 50 years old and started his "did's" when he was 10--- see, 40 years times twice a week for his fasting + all his tithing etc.--- well, I let you make the calc. Anyway, we know what Jesus thought of the quantity of his efforts--- all done in the name of God, btw.--- he did not think they were worth counting at all! The Pharisee was trying to "justify" himself before God by searching for "good things" in his past. Former members trying to compare themselves to others may be involved in the same kind of self vindication efforts in an attempt to "make sense" of their past and rescue some personal equity from the ashes. We don't have to do this----- all of our "equity" of goodness is provided for richly in God's gift of grace. This frees us to be honest, find mercy, and reconcile with those we wronged while in the group. God Bless, Mark C. |
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trac4yt
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« Reply #84 on: November 11, 2007, 07:26:04 pm » |
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Margaret, So for 10,000 members (assumed) over 10,000 days (30 yr. approx.), regardless of each member's location at a given second, the maximum expectation for each person would be that God would be knocking from the outside, but would always refuse to enter? Being lukewarm was guaranteed for each moment of 10,000 days, unknown by each member? This was due to the G. and B. people blockage? Also, unknown by each member? Thus, all abiding, comfort in trial, filling of the Spirit, joy, peace, etc. was simply imagination of God's presence and promises and oath and "power in the Blood" for 10,000 days..at work, at school, driving, etc.? God refused it all? Though, members imagined it so? If, during an Attitudinal Oscillation Process (AOP) of 40,000 seconds (12 hr. awake approx.) in a given day, members imagined justification or sanctification, this would always be "trumped" by the blockage in place by the G. and B. people, regardless of their location? Margaret, is the AOP solidly in place now? Is there an insurance against further 30 year "black-outs" by God? Are there any people in existence that could be blocking this entry by God? Are attitudinal-conditionalities sufficient to prevent God from the Knocking Oscillatory Process (KOP) in a given day? Does Jesus still save? Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost. (Ro 15:13) P.S. Assume 10,000 "DIDs" for you per month, while seeking to serve God...
Surely, God would reward a high percentage.
Likewise,
Assume 10,000 "DOs" NOW for you per month, while seeking to serve God...
Surely, God will reward a high percentage.
May He reward you richly for ALL the years. |
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« Last Edit: November 11, 2007, 07:33:43 pm by trac4yt »
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moonflower2
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« Reply #86 on: November 15, 2007, 04:39:48 am » |
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Oscar
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« Reply #87 on: November 15, 2007, 05:53:40 am » |
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Moonflower, So you survived! Or did you? That is hilarious....funny too.  Tom Maddux |
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EricFoy
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« Reply #88 on: November 16, 2007, 10:03:44 pm » |
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...I am wondering how you all have evaluated your heartfelt "service for the Lord" in the Assembly. I honestly don't know at this point. I am hoping that a discussion about this might shed some light for all of us.
Or maybe I am approaching this from an Assembly mindset and you all can set me straight!!??
No, Margaret, I don't think you should be "set straight." I really appreciate your probing of this question, and I believe there are more than a few of us ex-assemblyites who continue to harbor bitterness toward our past. This bitterness is not a fruit of the spirit, and it will eventually corrode our souls, should it go unchecked. And I think your question is a good first step for many toward the road to full recovery. I must confess that I have at times held the "get over it and move on" attitude toward those whom I felt were just complaining. But the truth is that many were much more damaged than myself and mine, and God has called me to a higher level of compassion. I have particularly found it interesting that, upon even recent retrospection, I now realize that Sheila and I, in fact, suffered more damage than I had thought. These things take time to work themselves out, don't they? And it apparently doesn't happen on our own time table. Saying, "Get over it and move on," is like telling one who is clinically depressed that he just needs to "get happy," or "think good thoughts." Anyone who has dealt with depression knows how futile that kind of advise is! Many times over the past several years, I have had to temper my response to those who were saying things like, "It was all a big farce!" No, it was not all a big farce. But when someone is crying out in anguish, it is generally not expedient to address their immediate statements as though they reflect the individuals' deepest convictions. Beating someone back down with a statement of incontrovertible truth is an effective means of suppression and control, as the assembly leadership taught us so well, but isn't healing through true reconciliation the real goal? This is precisely the mark that assembly wife-training and assembly child-training missed. About fifteen years ago, the Lord impressed upon me the fact that He has not dealt with us according to our transgressions. In other words, I have, in fact, not received a consequence for every misdeed - because of God's mercy and compassion. Shall I then be sure to issue consequences to my wife? Shall I make sure my children never get away with any misdeed without suffering a consequence (as if that's even possible)? What would this teach them about God's character? I had numerous discussions with the leading brothers on this issue, but, alas, in most cases their brains were not engaged - or if they were, they were already subservient to another's line of reasoning. So in answer to your question of how I evaluated my heartfelt "service for the Lord" in the Assembly, I have far too much to say to put it down now. Was there any good? Yes, there were many, many, many good things that we did. There were innumerable good things we learned. We can say these things and rejoice in them without being complicit with any of the evil, can we not? Please, friends, I need these good things. They are the largest part of who I am. I will not tell you, "Just get over it." We can talk about it all. Only don't tell me, "Just throw it all away." |
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moonflower2
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« Reply #89 on: November 16, 2007, 11:21:56 pm » |
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Moonflower, So you survived! Or did you? That is hilarious....funny too. Tom Maddux Hi Tom! Glad you enjoyed it.  Moonflower |
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