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Mark Kisla
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« on: April 19, 2003, 09:53:08 pm » |
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In Assembly Reflections there is an article by C.S. Lewis entitled, "The Inner Ring" . I appreciate the work of C. S. Lewis but much of his writings and what he says in "The Inner Ring" goes right over my head. Those of you who grasp what Lewis is trying to communicate would you be kind enough to share its meaning and application.
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sfortescue
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« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2003, 11:50:31 pm » |
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The primary reason that the posted article is incomprehensible is that the first half of it is missing! I have a copy of that lecture by C. S. Lewis in a book. It is 11 pages long, but the part posted is only the last 5 pages.
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BeckyW
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« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2003, 05:58:32 am » |
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What I saw in the article, even if only half of it is there, is the lure of wanting to gain acceptance into the desired "inner circle" of whatever group you happen to be in. Lewis points out that this desire can bring more heartache and make more scoundrels of us than even other more obvious sins, because we become false and men pleasers in the pursuit. Applying the article to this ministry, the desire to be a "worker", or close to to the people at the top, maybe kept us silent when we should have spoken out, or kept us bound to an assembly long after it became a real strain on ourselves and our families to be there. The group takes precedence over the Lord Himself, or we confuse the two in our minds. I'm sure there's more there...this is just how it struck me after a quick read of it last week. It's worth thinking about. Becky
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al Hartman
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« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2004, 10:40:04 am » |
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What I saw in the article, even if only half of it is there, is the lure of wanting to gain acceptance into the desired "inner circle" of whatever group you happen to be in. Lewis points out that this desire can bring more heartache and make more scoundrels of us than even other more obvious sins, because we become false and men pleasers in the pursuit. Applying the article to this ministry, the desire to be a "worker", or close to to the people at the top, maybe kept us silent when we should have spoken out, or kept us bound to an assembly long after it became a real strain on ourselves and our families to be there. The group takes precedence over the Lord Himself, or we confuse the two in our minds. I'm sure there's more there...this is just how it struck me after a quick read of it last week. It's worth thinking about. Becky
Day by day and moment by moment we must make the choice whether to put our energies into being spiritual or merely appearing to be spiritual. Bear in mind that our formative years on this earth were spent learning in and of all the ways of the natural man, that fallen creature who is separated from God and needs to be reborn in spirit by the Spirit of God. So it is natural that we should find the way of spirituality to be hard, and we are attracted to the easier course of merely seeming spiritual by the performance of a few outward acts which place us in the company of those who are accepted by the multitudes as the "in crowd," that inner circle to which Lewis' article and Becky (above) refer. What makes the truly spiritual path seem so undesirable to our fallen nature is that we must each travel it alone and without fanfare. All that we could ever need to be mature in Christ was given us at Calvary, and became ours to possess upon our acceptance of Christ by faith, just as our physical birth gave us the entire genetic makeup to become physically and mentally mature. But maturity is still only achievable through the gradual maturing process. The natural man is impatient and craves the adulation of others. To him the path of spiritual growth seems long, arduous, painfull, unnecessary. The route to appearing spiritual can be swift, easy and instantly gratifying. The natural man cannot grasp two essential truths: First, the appearance of spirituality is a house of cards, insubstantive, built upon the shifting sands of deception. Second, the way of real spiritual life and growth is, to the new creation in Christ, an easy yoke and a light burden to bear. Why? Because it is the Lord's own yoke and burden: He bears it if we will just walk with Him, neither deferring nor detouring from the path of His choosing. When we turn our faces toward Jesus Christ, seeing Who He is and what wonders He has done and is yet doing in us, we become taken up with thanksgiving and worship and the desire to learn more of Him, and the attraction of having a spiritual reputation fades to nothing in the brightness of His countenance. Understanding this is important to us of assembly background because we were taught that spirituality was made evident, and was to be assessed by others who ranked above us, based upon the outward appearance of our performance of regimented acts of obedience. Our leaders judged our "spirituality" by our works. Real acts of obedience are performed within the heart, before our Father Who sees in secret, and Who in turn rewards us openly by enabling us to manifest His goodness and glory in the doings of our lives. The real inner circle for us to know and enjoy is the Company of the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit, and all those whom He has chosen to dwell in His Presence. No other circle matters... al Hartman |
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editor
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« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2004, 12:28:08 pm » |
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What I saw in the article, even if only half of it is there, is the lure of wanting to gain acceptance into the desired "inner circle" of whatever group you happen to be in. Lewis points out that this desire can bring more heartache and make more scoundrels of us than even other more obvious sins, because we become false and men pleasers in the pursuit. Applying the article to this ministry, the desire to be a "worker", or close to to the people at the top, maybe kept us silent when we should have spoken out, or kept us bound to an assembly long after it became a real strain on ourselves and our families to be there. The group takes precedence over the Lord Himself, or we confuse the two in our minds. I'm sure there's more there...this is just how it struck me after a quick read of it last week. It's worth thinking about. Becky
Day by day and moment by moment we must make the choice whether to put our energies into being spiritual or merely appearing to be spiritual. Bear in mind that our formative years on this earth were spent learning in and of all the ways of the natural man, that fallen creature who is separated from God and needs to be reborn in spirit by the Spirit of God. So it is natural that we should find the way of spirituality to be hard, and we are attracted to the easier course of merely seeming spiritual by the performance of a few outward acts which place us in the company of those who are accepted by the multitudes as the "in crowd," that inner circle to which Lewis' article and Becky (above) refer. What makes the truly spiritual path seem so undesirable to our fallen nature is that we must each travel it alone and without fanfare. All that we could ever need to be mature in Christ was given us at Calvary, and became ours to possess upon our acceptance of Christ by faith, just as our physical birth gave us the entire genetic makeup to become physically and mentally mature. But maturity is still only achievable through the gradual maturing process. The natural man is impatient and craves the adulation of others. To him the path of spiritual growth seems long, arduous, painfull, unnecessary. The route to appearing spiritual can be swift, easy and instantly gratifying. The natural man cannot grasp two essential truths: First, the appearance of spirituality is a house of cards, insubstantive, built upon the shifting sands of deception. Second, the way of real spiritual life and growth is, to the new creation in Christ, an easy yoke and a light burden to bear. Why? Because it is the Lord's own yoke and burden: He bears it if we will just walk with Him, neither deferring nor detouring from the path of His choosing. When we turn our faces toward Jesus Christ, seeing Who He is and what wonders He has done and is yet doing in us, we become taken up with thanksgiving and worship and the desire to learn more of Him, and the attraction of having a spiritual reputation fades to nothing in the brightness of His countenance. Understanding this is important to us of assembly background because we were taught that spirituality was made evident, and was to be assessed by others who ranked above us, based upon the outward appearance of our performance of regimented acts of obedience. Our leaders judged our "spirituality" by our works. Real acts of obedience are performed within the heart, before our Father Who sees in secret, and Who in turn rewards us openly by enabling us to manifest His goodness and glory in the doings of our lives. The real inner circle for us to know and enjoy is the Company of the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit, and all those whom He has chosen to dwell in His Presence. No other circle matters... al Hartman Im sorry, Normally I ignore this type of stuff, but I don't quite understand this. Al, are you "the natural man," or a Christian? Are you a whole person, or a divided person? Do your choices determine your spirituality, or does the blood of Christ? "I fear for you, lest somehow the serpent has distracted you from the simplicity that is in Christ." paraphrase Is our walk with the Lord dependent on us "neither deferring nor detouring from the path of His choosing?" How do you really know the path, and what happens when you detour? We all detour, from time to time, right? Does obedience from the heart result in rewards and blessing? These are important things to consider. I answer "no" to most of the questions above, with one qualified yes. Brent |
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Mark Kisla
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« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2004, 10:59:55 pm » |
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What I get out of this is that there is that desire in all of us to want to be important. I think a healthy self esteem and a well balanced confidence is good. I think a desire to live to your full potential is good. If it's at the expense of others and self worth is acheived by having to dominate everything you're involved in, you'll have an empty life.
My opinion is that a fulfilling life includes not only pleasure from personal success, but joy with the success of those around you...You like it when you friends succeed and even pass your own accomplishments.
The "inner ring " could not exist without those on the "outside" who are needed for a inner ring to be formed.
Joyful Churches that I have been in and have visited never had an obvious head honcho, heavyweight or inner ring. Sure there was a church staff and leaders, but never anyone who came across as the ultimate authority.
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« Last Edit: January 18, 2004, 02:22:14 am by Mark Kisla »
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al Hartman
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« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2004, 11:09:48 pm » |
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To All: Please read this with prayerful, teachable mind & heart, taking care to not assign to my feeble language skills meanings adopted from the land of our former bondage:
Im sorry,
Please don't be sorry. I'm not. This is exactly the purpose of this board, is it not?-- to attempt to resolve the issues that confuse and confound us, to discuss doctrine toward fruitful ends and, above all, to exalt our Lord Jesus Christ. Normally I ignore this type of stuff, but I don't quite understand this. OK, here's where I risk causing Brent to lose his temper on this board for (by his count) the 401st time  : The practice of labeling things that you "don't quite understand" as "this type of stuff," and saying that you normally ignore it is the kind of remark we have learned to expect from Geftakys followers. It is unworthy of you, Brother. To quote you, we are "better than that." Al, are you "the natural man," or a Christian? As all were, I was conceived and born a natural man; not evil, but horribly lost. The work of Jesus Christ at Calvary provided deliverance from that state, and when I learned of and accepted Him I became a partaker of that gift, a Christian, born anew of the Spirit of God. Are you a whole person, or a divided person? When Jesus said "It is finished," it was finished. Everything needed to make me/us whole had been provided. We are complete in Him. But, that wholeness cannot be fully implemented until these corrupt, sin-tainted bodies we occupy have been replaced by new, glorified ones. Brent, you are a doctor. You have occasion to treat the ailments of believers in Christ. Are they complete? Of course they are saved by grace through faith in Christ, but that very faith must be for them/us the substance and the evidence of the full redemption of our bodies until the appointed time of its fulfillment. The bodies we now occupy and all their parts (including our brains) still bear the taint of sinful flesh that can only be overridden by Christ's work through the exercise of the faith with which He has gifted us. If this were not so, we would already possess the glorified bodies He has promised. Do your choices determine your spirituality, or does the blood of Christ? Again, Christ's work has accomplished everything necessary to make us spiritual. There is nothing any of us could ever possibly do to gain one iota of spirituality. But, God has given us the choice whether or not to receive and utilize that blood-bought spirituality in this present, corpse-bound life. The decision is entirely ours every moment of our lives. "I fear for you, lest somehow the serpent has distracted you from the simplicity that is in Christ." paraphrase A reasonable fear for any of us, which is why we pray for one another, and why you exhort me and I you. (1.)Is our walk with the Lord dependent on us "neither deferring nor detouring from the path of His choosing?"
(2.)How do you really know the path, and
(3.)what happens when you detour?
(4.)We all detour, from time to time, right? (numbers are mine.-- al) (1.) Yes, of course it is. One can't walk if one defers to (doesn't) walk, and one can't walk with Someone if one takes a separate way. The Lord is not going to change His plan so He can wander about with us... (2.) A truly loaded question, but a good and fair one. This topic has had considerable discussion (in which you have participated) on more than one thread recently, and I think most if not all agree that it has no pat answer. Jesus said "You know the way," and He said "I AM the Way." That sums up the answer for us: by looking to Jesus we are assured of not faltering, because He doesn't falter. Think of Peter walking on the water... Distraction cannot ever rob us of Christ and all we are and possess in Him, but it may separate us from the present experience of His Presence. (3.) He leads me in the paths of righteousness for His Name's sake, but what if I don't follow? He may prod me with His rod, or pull me back by the crook of His staff, but He will never leave me nor forsake me. I may turn away, but I can never lose His Presence; only the present enjoyment of it. (4.) Right. Does obedience from the heart result in rewards and blessing? The operative phrase in this question is "from the heart." The outward act(s) of "obedience" avail nothing. Only Jesus Christ ever fulfilled the Law of God, and to fail in one point of the Law is to be guilty of disobeying it all. If we attempt to please God by obeying Him outwardly, our efforts are doomed to failure. No flesh will ever be justified by human behavior. But, (did you know that was coming?  ) The obedience of the heart is that we believe in God the Father and in Jesus Christ, Who He sent. And why does this obedience please God when none other can? Because so believing is the exercising of faith, which is not a work of the flesh, but the using of a gift of God. It is no credit to us, but comes from and returns to God. I am not Brent's peer as a student nor scholar, and make no claim to be a teacher. I look to such as Brent, Tom M., Mark C. and numerous others for instruction and correction. To any who can contribute clarity to this discussion, please post. God bless us all, al Hartman |
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vernecarty
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« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2004, 11:44:39 pm » |
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Having been a protagonist in many an instance of BB verbal sparring, let me share this for what it's worth.
My British influence lends to my own speech a kind of tartness and sometimes biting sarcasm that is really entirely a matter of style.
I want to encourage all, as I have had to learn, to avoid getting overly excited about how a person makes a statement, but rather focus on the merit of what is being stated. In an environment like this the proper choice of phraseology is not always achieved. I think we are all big enough to extend to each other a bit of room to maneuver.
I recently had occasion to learn how easy it is to be umisundersttod when Karey thought a salvo meant for someone else was directed toward her. I felt quite the heel and am certain that it is not any of our purpose to offend fellow posters when we try to make a point, sometimes albeit poorly. Let's walk in liberty huh?
Verne
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« Last Edit: January 19, 2004, 03:48:21 am by vernecarty »
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al Hartman
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« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2004, 04:43:12 am » |
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Having been a protagonist in many an instance of BB verbal sparring, let me share this for what it's worth.
My British influence lends to my own speech a kind of tartness and sometimes bititng sarcasm that is really entirely a matter of style.
I want to encourage all, as I have had to learn, to avoid getting overly excited about how a person makes a statement, but rather focus on the merit of what is being stated. In an environment like this the proper choice of phraseology is not always achieved. I think we are all big enough to extend to each other a bit of room to maneuver.
I recently had occasion to learn how easy it is to be umisundersttod when Karey thought a salvo meant for someone else was directed toward her. I felt quite the heel and am certain that it is not any of our purpose to offend fellow posters when we try to make a point, sometimes albeit poorly. Let's walk in liberty huh?
Verne
You wanna step outside and say that, Fellah?!!! No, seriously, Verne, well said, point taken & thank you. For everyone else's information, if Verne & I ever step outside together, it will be arm-in-arm, as we are brothers beloved of one another. Besides, he holds a 4th or 5th degree black belt in martial arts & he'd utterly destroy me if I forced it upon him! ;)al  |
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Kimberley Tobin
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« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2004, 05:12:24 am » |
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I am no scholar and I have only been out from under GG's influence for a little over a year. But there are certain things that I am VERY clear about:
1) I will no longer allow anyone (I mean anyone) tell me what I have to "do" in order to be accepted by God. I don't need to "do" anything. He has done it all, finished, end of sentence. I am simply resting in what he has done for me.
Right now, I am not even attending church, as we haven't found a place and my husband is only here two days out of the week until he can find a job here. We don't feel like spending half of one of those days looking for churches. We did that one Sunday and it was miserable and then we've wasted half of one of his precious days here with his family. All of that said, I don't feel guilty one bit, one iota. I still have a relationship with Jesus Christ, I know he loves me and cares for me and I don't have to be in church to show it or know it.
2) I don't have to read my bible, pray, worship through song, evangelize, be involved in ministry or any other such "service" in order to win brownie points with God. I am fully "accepted in the beloved". Any act of "service" or bible reading, prayer, etc. will be borne out of a heart to do so. Notice the word "heart". If my heart is in it, I will do it. If it's not, I won't. But whether I am doing any of those things or not, Christ doesn't look at me any differently (his judgemental people may, but he doesn't!)
3) My walk with God is just that.......MY walk with God. It is not anybody elses......to judge, to condemn, to critique, whatever.
4) I am here to do one thing: to grow in the "grace" and "love" of God, nothing else.
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« Last Edit: January 18, 2004, 05:13:51 am by Kimberley Tobin »
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editor
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« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2004, 06:24:17 am » |
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Again, Christ's work has accomplished everything necessary to make us spiritual. There is nothing any of us could ever possibly do to gain one iota of spirituality. You should have stopped right there! Your next sentence is where you go off. But, God has given us the choice whether or not to receive and utilize that blood-bought spirituality in this present, corpse-bound life. The decision is entirely ours every moment of our lives.
For anyone who may read this thread, please understand that I am reading meaning into Al's words, based on past dialogue that I have had with him. Al, you are confused about something that is most important. You are confusing the means of "blood-bought spirituality," with the evidence of the same. This is most important, and lies at the heart of the error that the Galatians fell into. Your obedience, your "walk" with the Lord, your "implementation of the wholeness of Christ," is evidence of your salvation, not a means of appropriating, or "enjoying" it. Do you understand the difference? You aren't saved because you believed in Christ. You believe because you are saved. Now, I call this type of theology "stuff" because I reject it. I know that others like it, and that is fine, I have plenty of friends who believe like that. The reason I said I didn't understand it, isn't because the concepts of arminian/deeper-life teaching aren't familiar to me, but because I didn't understand what you were saying. I call Deeper Life teaching "Home Depot" theology. Now that I see that you are saying: "Jesus did it all...... BUT it's up to me to choose to enjoy it." I don't buy it, and I reject this premise. If it were up to you, Al, you would go to hell. I would already be there ahead of you. Faith is useless and weak if its action depends on me in any way. Please reconsider your theology. Brent |
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« Last Edit: January 18, 2004, 08:41:33 am by Brent A. Trockman »
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BeckyW
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« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2004, 08:31:50 am » |
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"Corpse bound life" brings back an awful memory of a workshop where main sister shared teaching about dead people not feeling things, so why let things get to you? Die to self, etc. Mentioned this to someone recently who was raised in a healthier Christian environment, he said that sounds like the Buddistic state of nirvana teaching. Reach a high enough plane and you'll transcend those pesky life situations. What a mix we had in the assemblies bag.
I can relate to something Kimberly said recently... I, too, can feel things again, I am alive and well. When I get angry, I am not having "an emotional release", I am just... angry. And I'm not having a "soulish experience" when I enjoy the music on Sunday morning, or when I feel great Monday afternoon or whenever.
And the Inner Ring? Lewis says if you do passionately what you love to do, and share that with others, you'll have a ring of companions without even trying.
No need to include, exclude or play games about it.
Living and learning,
Becky
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editor
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« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2004, 09:09:47 am » |
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"Corpse bound life" brings back an awful memory of a workshop where main sister shared teaching about dead people not feeling things, so why let things get to you? Die to self, etc. Mentioned this to someone recently who was raised in a healthier Christian environment, he said that sounds like the Buddistic state of nirvana teaching. Reach a high enough plane and you'll transcend those pesky life situations. What a mix we had in the assemblies bag.
I can relate to something Kimberly said recently... I, too, can feel things again, I am alive and well. When I get angry, I am not having "an emotional release", I am just... angry. And I'm not having a "soulish experience" when I enjoy the music on Sunday morning, or when I feel great Monday afternoon or whenever.
And the Inner Ring? Lewis says if you do passionately what you love to do, and share that with others, you'll have a ring of companions without even trying.
No need to include, exclude or play games about it.
Living and learning,
Becky
Deeper Life mysticism is very similiar to eastern mysticism. Both creep me out. Real Deeper Life is to be found in Jesus, not in myself. Sure, the deeper life guy will say, "Amen!" to that; but right after Amen, they say, "IF you are diligent to apply the cross and walk in the inward man," or some other such statement. Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, The Life." If we have Him, what more do we need? The thief on the cross had Christ, and in a few hours he was going to be with Him in paradise. Would he have done any better if he had a few years to learn about denying self, or overcoming the "corpse bound life?" I think not. At one time I was a deeper life junkie. Now, I do not understand salvation, faith, or "walking" with the Lord, in this way at all. In a nutshell, I see faith, heart-obedience, changed outward behavior, cleansed thought-life, choices that please God, sincere desire to avoid sin and broken fellowship, repentance, desire to share Christ with the lost, wanting to give of one's time and money, thirsting after God's Word, wanting to pray, yearning to be changed into His image.... I see all of this as evidence that a person has been touched by the grace of God.Now, if a person never wants to do any of the above, and has no troubled conscience about their sinful lifestyle, and really could care less about any sort of "walk" with the Lord....I question if they are saved in the first place. If we are a new creation in Christ, and old things have passed away, all things become new, how is it that we can be identical to the old in every way? What about Romans 7, and the passages that talk about our struggle in this life? Well, we are flesh and blood. We can't help that. The Spirit wars against the flesh, and the flesh against the Spirit. It is going to be that way until we die or are raptured. However, the very fact that this battle takes place is evidence of our redemption. If there were no struggle, it could only mean that the flesh was not at war, because we are dead in our sins. The very fact that we are making headway against the deeds of the flesh is evidence of God's grace, NOT a means to appropriating it! Deeper Life proponents, in the fundamental analysis are saying this: Yes, you are born again, praise God. Now, if you want to enjoy all the blessings in Christ you must________ . Here is a litmus test question: In order to be a better Christian I must _________ . How do answer that question? It is extremely important. Brent On another note, I like what Becky said about the inner ring. People who are obsessed with labeling others "inner ringers" are usually upset that they aren't in the ring themselves. Do what you love to do, passionately, and you don't need to even consider rings or any kind. |
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« Last Edit: January 18, 2004, 09:13:13 am by Brent A. Trockman »
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