Something Wonderful About to Happen

[Sebastian Andrew]

Greetings Freebird:
I second your observations. The deeper life is a pretty vast subject. It has helped me for sure, and many others, no doubt. All mystics are not mistakes. Geftakys' use-or misuse- of mysticism/DLT has been well-described by Brent and Mark Campbell, but I don't think issuing a fatwah on the whole thing is appropriate.
Yours,
Sebastian Andrew

[Mark C.]

Hi All,
  We've all pretty much figured out that GG used "deeper life" teaching as a tool for control (see my article on False Holiness), but apart from Assembly misuse are there any dangers with this teaching?
  Brent, your book gives an excellent look at what "deeper life" pursuit becomes in reality.
  Deeper life means the pursuit of deeper experiences in my life of Christ.  This, in itself, sounds very positive, but what does it actually mean? In Pentecostalism it means having "spiritual power" to perform miraculous works for God.  GG would say it is to have "moral power" to overcome the "self life" and express Christ.
  The NT teaches that the result of the experience of Christ in my life is love; love being like God's love, which is sacraficial in nature.
   When we attempt to "go beyond" to deeper experiences of the Spirit through techniques that we actualize ourselves we have left grace and placed ourselves squarely in Rom. 7 where we are attempting to implement what is "good" in our lives.  Doesn't the Bible teach us to apply what is good and to eschew evil?  Yes, we are most certainly urged to obey what is good, but not as a means to attain "deeper life" but as a result of our salvation.
   Deeper life teaching leads to a sense of elitism, as the adherents claim that they are somehow more spiritual then their "less deep" brethren.  If we "think" we are more "spiritual" then Paul says we should be involved in the same kind of restorative work that Jesus did in salvation by lifting our needy brethren instead of looking down our noses at them (Assembly elitism).  In these elitist systems I see little care for those struggling and much concern re. one's own pursuit of "holiness".

[Eulaha L. Long]

Brent,
When I left the Assembly, my first inclination was to reject everything that reminded me of the Assembly, but unfortunately, I rejected God also.  I was angry and depressed.  But, thanks to some very faithful friends, I asked God to forgive me for forsaking Him, and now I want to go His way!

I no longer blame God for bringing me into the Assembly for nine years.  I believe He allowed this so that I could appreciate Him more.  And I appreciate Him a lot more.  It's all about loving Him, not about trying to change my behavior so He can be pleased with me.  I don't do flags charts any longer, and I don't pray the "Selfer's prayer".  I pray, "God, please forgive me", and He does!

[Mark C.]

That is Great Eulaha!
   What you just said in your last post is a most wonderful discovery !  I made a similar discovery after I left.  I wasn't angry at God, but felt that maybe I had been abandoned by him because I left "God's true church."  
   I was driving around and saw a bumper sticker that said, "Jesus is my best friend" and I suddenly realized that this was not a trite little saying but was true!  GG always taught that Jesus wasn't "a buddy on the beach" but was a high, holy, and very unapproachable person. (Speaking of Christmas) The high holy God of eternity was born, lived on earth, and died on the cross that we might forever be united in love!  The friendship that Jesus extends to us does not leave when we sin; on the contrary, it is then that he draws near to us.  
   I don't know if you read the post I wrote re. Wounded Pilgrims, but I believe that little wounded one's who come out of groups like the Assembly are the apple of his eye.  Jesus was wounded through the attacks of the false religious system of his day and Jesus always had very harsh words for them.  To the poor battered known sinners that Jesus met he gave a message of grace and hope--(they love much because they were forgiven much).
   Don't be too hard on yourself re. your anger because it wasn't really rejection of God, but of a system that distorted who God really is.
    I write this not only to you Eulaha, but to others who may read and feel the same as you did.  God's heart aches for his little wounded pilgrims; see him as he really is---The Friend of Sinners!     God is Blessed,  Mark

[trockman]

Good Morning Garth

First of all, I'm not down on Deeper Life teachers, nor have I completely shut out everything I learned in the Assembly!  The baby is still here, while most of the bath water is out the window.  Much to learn, YOU BET!  Am I ready to fight to the death against One-naturism?  Absolutely not!

You are correct, it was the application of these teachings that did far more damage than the teachings themselves.  God is well able to perfect us, in spite of the fact that none of us understands anything the way we ought.  The problem comes when we are convinced we do understand, and we are convinced that our understanding is the complete and total truth presented in the scripture.  The important thing is that we know HIm and are found in Him.  Child-like faith is precious to the Lord.

Anyhow:

One-nature= the new nature is sinless, in Christ, but the old nature is dead, buried. But the new nature is so weak that the old nature's "programming" is able to dominate us most of the time, and trouble us for the duration of our lives!
In this model, Death, a la Roman's 6 is anhililation. To quote Betty, "How can the old man sin?  How can a corpse get out of the coffin."  Think this out, in the context of Roman's applying the same type of logic that Paul displays and I believe you arrive at an impasse.  Christ's new creation, and therefore His atoning work on the cross is not able to rid us of "old programming."  He needs us and our effort in order for the glorious new man to come forth.

Two Natures.  Death in Rom 6 is seperation. While the old Adamic nature still is very much alive (dead, like an unbeliever, but alive) we have been seperated from it.  It no longer has power over us.  We are free to serve and live in the spirit.  To make a long story short.  If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us, and cleanse us.  When we do this, prompted by the Holy Spirit, we are whole, fellowship is restored, etc.

We shall get into this more, but for now, think about it. Take each position, as Paul does, to the logical conclusion.  Think about Jesus' words, "It is finished."  This doesn't mean, "It has begun."

Now, please understand, I do not think that I have a firm grasp on all of this. I have many questions.  I reserve the right to change my mind and be convinced of another opinion, but at the same time, I also know that Christ's new creation CANNOT sin.  If the old man is "dead and gone," which is what most of the Deeper Life guys teach, then we must conclude that the new man is pretty weak.  At least that is how I see it.

OK, the lid is off the can.  Now, shall we bite and devour one another?  No, I think not.  I think this is awesome.  We can discuss the scriptures, and speak one to another.

Brent

[Mark C.]

Hi Garth, Brent, and other Biblical scholars.
  I think it is great to freely discuss these ideas as it is an opportunity to learn and grow.  I wish to enter the fray with my opinions, but like Brent, I am open to change.
   Of course I carry to the discussion my former indoctrination in a system that destroyed lives and as such makes me suspicious of any teaching that seems to support Assembly teaching.  It seems to me that GG liberally borrowed from many competing views that he gathered over the years, and this only adds to the confusion.
   One Naturism:  I side with the view that we have two natures, and whether this is just a semantic difference or not, it is what conclusions we draw from this teaching that can lead to serious harm to the Christian.   Often in history the teaching of One Naturism has been taken to mean some version of perfectionism.  From the Catholic mystics, Wesley, Salvation Army, Overcomer teachers, old line Pentecostals, The Assembly, etc. have taken the teaching to mean that we can attain perfection in this life.  This has led to suicide, nervous breakdowns, hypocrisy, and a general condition of "spiritual" self preoccupation.  Any teaching that denies what is honestly going on in my life is not healthy.
   Garth, your example of a homosexual struggling with his predisposition to this sin is a good one.  We all struggle with different natural dispositions(weakness)and it is this curse that brings us to God for help.  Betty taught, re. the Christian life, that we don't need to come to God for help because the finished work of Christ has already made us new creations and we have all the help we need.  In reality our interaction with God as Christians is much more complicated then some kind of a "Wheel and a Line" system that we are to implement in our lives.  We are not honest with ourselves (thus the growing psychotherapy business) and will ultimately fail in our attempts to actualize the new life in Christ via, "reckoning dead", "taking the place", "climbing heavenly ladders", etc.  
  GG, and his predecessors in perfectionism/overcoming teaching, all think they have not sinned for years!  Luther stated, "I sin daily", and I think he is closer to the truth.
   Next, is the teaching of Rom.7 of which the language clearly places Paul in the present tense.  I side with Reformed teaching re. their interpretation of this passage.  I will have to explain later as I have made this post too long already.
    I'm sure you understand the way GG twisted the teaching of One Naturism and I am not suggesting you would support such nonsense, but I think you must ask yourself where my understanding of scripture could lead and always ask what is my actual experience lest we fall into the error of explaining away things in our lives that are better faced honestly.
                                       God Bless,  Mark

[trockman]

Hi Garth

Greg must be attending a church with a reformed slant. Am I right Greg?
Basically, the five points of Calvin are found in the acronym TULIP

• Total depravity
• Unconditional Election
• Limited Atonement
• Irresitstable grace
• Perseverance of the saints

The part Greg was referring to, whether Christ died for all men, or just the church(elect is more correct) is part of the "L" in TULIP.

If you are not familiar with reformed teaching, I highly reccomend you educate yourself.  You will not hear God's grace taught with more clarity than when a real live reformed preacher teaches it.  I reccomend Sinclair Ferguson or RC Sproul.

I am not a 5 point Calvinist, but I love hearing one preach the Gospel.  Learning about this will definitely challenge and bless you.  Again, I'm not a calvinist, but a serious student of the Bible should definitely be familiar with reformed theology. After all, God used men like Calvin and Luther to recover the doctrine of Justification by grace, through faith alone.  That is pretty important, I'd say. It bears serious consideration.

I am currently stalling in my study of dispensational theology, so I can't add much on that topic without going over my head.  (really, same with almost anything, I am quite a novice really, but I am good at debunking Lodge bylaws )

Perhaps Brother Malone would like to say something here?  Surely he must be a dispensationalist?  John?

Brent

[trockman]

Yes he was, a five pointer.  And I agree, he was a beautiful preacher, one of the best.

However, I still have a hard time with some of the corrolaries of reformed theology.  I have a hard time with the idea that man does not have free will.  I also, have a hard time with limited atonement.

But, if I had to choose from one of the big "systems,"  I guess I would choose reformed, because I never get tired of hearing about Christ.  And they really preach it.  (the good ones)

Gladly, we have the whole bible, and not just the parts that prove our theological bents.

Brent

[trockman]

Hey! You guys!

I think I figured out the deal with John.  He thinks that we are engaging in mostly a touchy/feely thing here, and he wants to have some serious talk about the Bible, or scriptures, as he likes to call them.

John, you have said that GL's have poor understanding of the scriptures. I could not agree with your more, except that the real problem is that we think we know a whole bunch.  What cured me is when I realized that JW's also know a whole bunch...

So, give us some of your insight into what a GL might benefit from. (You can't say, "what do you think I have been doing?") If you do this by calling me a "momma's boy," or something like that I am going to have the editor demote you!

Seriously, choose a Lodge error, and show us how the scriptures led you out of the error.  It will no doubt be helpful to many, and , if I can get you to shut up and say something, we will all be much happier.

Brent

[Eulaha L. Long]

I have a question for you all:  what does the scripture say about dating a non-believer?  I believe that the scripture does not support MARRYING a non-beleiver, but what about dating one?  Answer quickly-I've got to give an answer to a couple of guys wanting to take me out, yet they are not  Christians....

[Kimberley Tobin]

The only thing I can think of is 2Cor 6:14a which says, "By ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers..."  Now, I know that you are not marrying this guy(s), you are just "going out".  However, I know that once your emotions get entangled with someone, it is alot more difficult to disentangle yourself at that point.  Having had a child out of wedlock and had to deal with her father (who for 9-10 years of my daughter's life he was not saved) it is rather difficult to deal with an unbeliever in these kind of areas (too long to go into detail here-give me a call and we can talk!)

My encouragement to you (and this is just an encouragement, you have to make your decision before the Lord, I am not your judge) is to see these people in a group situation.  They can get to know you as a friend.  If there is a genuine interest in you as a person that would develop into something more, you most definately would want to share a spiritual relationship with that person.  Time will tell whether that person would come to Christ or not.  But to get in a relationship hoping that they will get saved is a tad foolish.  I have been married now almost 10 years to a believer.  Marriage is hard enough when you are on the same spiritual page.  I can't even imagine what it would be like to an unbeliever.  Any sisters out there who have experienced this who would like to contribute to the edification of this topic?

Also, 1Cor 6:12 - "All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any."

Much love in your consideration,

Kimberley

[Eulaha L. Long]

I recently received an email from a current Assembly member, and I was told that I could only find the will of God with other believers (not on my own).  Is this true?  I have not been in a church for over a year now-does this mean I have never found the will of God because I have not fellowshipped with other believers? Help!  

[Aslan213]

Hi Eulaha,

I'm not surprised an assemby member sent you an email.  A simple answer for you is no to both questions!  I've received some pretty non-scriptural, but interesting comments since I've left.  There are four things I've noticed.

First, the assembly believes that God only speaks through the assembly or corporate gathering.  We know from scripture that God speaks to individuals such as, Abraham, Gideon, Job,...

Second, although you and I have left the assembly, they don't consider us to have really left.  They may still try to control you and, for that matter, try to bring you to "repentance".

Third, I've been studying assembly false teaching lately and here is something that has been preached numerous times.  I quote Andrew Gunther, a LB in the valley assembly, "But we apostles, but we Corinthians, we have the mind of Christ.  Now that's a wonderful thing. That's the responsibility of leadership to ascertain and stand for the mind of the Lord."  The problem with this and so much of assembly teaching is that the only way to support false teaching is to add to the word of God.  The assembly believes and implies in its emails (and comments) that the leadership knows the will of God and if God speaks to us, we must go to leadership to get counsel on what to do.  This is entirely false and merely a method to control God's people.

Fourth, although I believe from scripture that we all need to be in a church, the assembly ignores some clear passages.  The word of God says, "...And I will keep watch to see what He will speak to me, and how I may reply when I am reproved." (Habakkuk 2:1)

John 16:13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come."

Acts 9:11 "11 And the Lord said to him,..."

Gen. 25:22-23 "But the children struggled together within her; and she said, “If it is so, why then am I this way?” So she went to inquire of the Lord.  And the Lord said to her,..."

I hope this helps.  Lord bless you.

Eric

[Tom Weltner]

Eulaha:

You will never be free from the bonds of the unbiblical Assembly Way if you do not learn to find God's will for yourself.  This crap the Assembly teaches about a special dispensation of wisdom upon the LB's, and a special blessing upon those who obey them is just that...crap....garbage...disease infested oozing maggot breeding doggie doo-doo.  (I'll probably get kicked out of the kingdom and spend all of eternity in heaven's 'burbs for saying that).  Nevertheless, it is an evil and wicked teaching that encourages well-intended believers to go against their conscience.  Having had this teaching pounded into us for so long, it can be hard to let go of.  Often, we are afraid that if we don't get the LB's blessing, then God will not bless our undertaking.  This is not true.  I've seen more people suffer from the LB's nosy meddling than I have from people who earnestly sought God's will on their own, and made some mistakes along the way.  Did you ever notice that with very, very, very, few exceptions that the LB's would assure you that leaving the Assembly was not God's will, that you were deceived, that you would lose the "covering" of the Assembly, that in short, you would be spiritual road-kill if you left.  Eulaha, the best thing you ever did was to leave.  You didn't make that decision under the direction of the LB's.  You made it on your own.  Get godly council.  Seek the Word.  Pray about you questions.  Then decide before God.  He won't get mad at you!  God loves you very much, sister, and he has all grace for you to live and walk in liberty without guilt or condemnation.

I miss you!!

Tom

[Sebastian Andrew]

Amen to that!
It is great to know that God deigns to use a good counselor to help you to do those things that Tom mentioned, too. Why does God use evangelists? Can't He save you directly? Yes, He can if He wants to. Often God uses them. It  might be said "I don't find christian psychologists in the Bible." Because something  isn't in the Bible doesn't mean it is therefore forbidden. Tom Maddux (Oscar) made a good point that psychology is simply the study of how the mind works. So really there are good psychologists and bad ones.
God willing you can find a psychologist with biblical presuppositions(a skilled Christian). I have heard good things about Wellspring
and get their newsletter.
God bless,
Sebastian Andrew